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Unread 22 May 2009, 18:19   #1
Knight Theamion
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Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

Seeing as there is a shitload of confusement over these boards. (I call it confusement, it could also be that a lot of people are ill-informed) I hereby chose to elaborate a bit one it. There is a lot of overkill in explanation below, if you want to read the conlusion, scroll down and go to conclusion.

In 'regular' alliances (or BG's) there is a power of control on who gets in or not. This power usually lies with people called recruiters or with the HC or leaders of that group. It is constrainted and people know who to talk to to get people in (or out). This also ensures that these people can easily set up some recruitment policy and or constant standards recruits have to adhere to. (We all know from the old days the forms you have to fill in with 'how many hours a day can you be on irc, what is your time zone' and so forth. This is 'standard'. This is not Ascendancy.

From round 25 until round 30 (this is my knowledge but as far as I know it also happened before that this way). We used the old system. If you ever read the munin code or documentation from those rounds you could check. People would have invites and these invites they could use to their own discretion to invite new players. This meant that, for instance, the number of players I could invite to the game was limited. The fact this was limited is one of the sharp contrasts to the new system which I will explain further into this post. An invite would be put up and people could tell the inviter (daddy) that they'd have problem with the invitee (gimp). Whenever a gimp misbehaved or his daddy had enough of him his daddy could kick him. (Note that also Jester and JBG had the !getanewdaddy power. Noone I know ever complaind about JBG having it, but if you want to point the obvious out: No this is not entirely in line with the 'all equal' Ascendancy thought, but it completely is coherent with the 'don't be shit'-reasoning.

Now the new system (there are two versions with different carebear/cookie systems, these however do not influence the effects of the new system, so I treat them as one). Everyone can invite anyone. And everyone can vote on this 'proposition to invite'. The weight of these votes is dependant on the ammount of carebears one has. You can get carebears if someone else gives you a cookie. You can hand out 4 cookies a day. Cookies can be given for the most arbitrary reasons, but they can only be given in public. For instance:
<Theam> !cookie jester munin update <3
or
<Hosie> !cookie theam giving up own planet to save gal!
The public part is important because it prevents/exposes blatant circle jerks.
Now lets say I want someone in. Lets give an example.
<Theam> !prop invite Tesla Good player. Has been Ascendancy before, apparently split up with his missus and his office put him on office duty. Which makes him sad, miserable and 24/7 online. I say <3 and get him in.
(fictional prop btw!)
Now people will react to this and will go start doing !prop vote 365 yes or !prop vote 365 no (if Tesla's proposition is proposition number 365)

After a while I would expire the proposition and he would be in or not.
Kicking people is the same process. I am fed up with someone or thinks someone is shit (or a crasher or whatever) and I would do !prop kick elviz pnapping planet whore. shouldnt be in this alliance. hasn't attacked omen in like 23423 ticks and barely defends.

Also in Ascendancy we like to invite new players. It is the philosophy of most of us that if you find a new player in your galaxy (we usually degeneratively call them pet projects) we try to get them into Ascendancy immediately, if we think they are up for it, because it actually increases their playing satisfaction and we might retain a new sign up. Also, people from the 'lesser' alliances who are performing decently and who are being constrainted in any way often get an invite for Ascendancy too; being it this round or the start of the next round. Because we like those people, we think they should have fun. We have fun in Ascendancy so why not share some of this fun?

Conclusion:
Because anyone can invite anyone and most of us like Ascendancy and do not deny others that joy, people can get in fairly easy. The only players that do not get in are players who might have loyalty issues or who we consider to be complete ****s. And even then votes might be barely tied and a re-proposition might occur. Add to this that noone ever said, proposed or suggested that we should mass recruit, the idea that there is some kind of active and conscious policy to recruit every man and his dog is completely false. The idea that we wanted to recruit ourselves 'to the win' to make our opposition weaker is even more rediculous.
What you can understand is that cool people randoming in an Ascendancy galaxy can get easily guiled or wanting to go to Ascendancy. This is what happened.




PS A lot of people within Ascendancy think we have recruited too much and that a lot of new gimps do not fully understand the level of commitment and personal responsibility that is expected from them. How that is dealt with is something we will see later or at the end of this round I guess, however that is not the topic of this post.
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Last edited by Knight Theamion; 22 May 2009 at 22:33. Reason: typos. and more typos.
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Unread 22 May 2009, 18:42   #2
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

quite an interesting way to do things
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Unread 22 May 2009, 19:22   #3
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

[13:12] <Londo> IT IS INDEED AN AWE INSPIRING BEACON OF AWESOME: SO MUCH SO IM BLINDED AND CANT POST A SUFFICIENTLY AWESOME RESPONSE!!!

nuff said
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Unread 22 May 2009, 19:26   #4
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

Did someone say ARP?
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Unread 22 May 2009, 20:28   #5
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

Some would say a thread like this belongs in the alliance recruitment forums (ARF!) - but seemingly not lokken, so nevermind.

Anyway - lets get to the real point of this thread, implicit in your wording and certain repetition of principles: Yes, we know ascendancy is awesome theamion, take a ****ing break will you? A good winner is one that doesn't constantly brag... especially when your role in the awesomeness is miniscule.
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Unread 22 May 2009, 20:32   #6
Knight Theamion
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newt View Post
Some would say a thread like this belongs in the alliance recruitment forums (ARF!) - but seemingly not lokken, so nevermind.

Anyway - lets get to the real point of this thread, implicit in your wording and certain repetition of principles: Yes, we know ascendancy is awesome theamion, take a ****ing break will you? A good winner is one that doesn't constantly brag... especially when your role in the awesomeness is miniscule.
Actually I was addressing something else, that's why I said that there was a lot overkill of information and that the important part is in the conclusion of the post. The conclusion is that Ascendancy did not have an active and conscious policy of recruiting every man and his dog. Therefore each time this argument is used and it is used a lot, people know they are spouting crap. However, since our 'policy' appeared in numerous threads (the aforemenioned allegation) as an argument why we are the scum of the earth, I thought I made a seperate post in one thread to inform people about how it works and what the implications of it are.
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Unread 22 May 2009, 20:46   #7
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

In my opinion you haven't really defended ascendancy versus the accusations. I doubt few people have actually meant that asc's recruitment policy is to do nothing but get all the best players in the universe at any cost! Although that might be how they phrased it on here.

Its more the accusation that your recruitment policy allows such a thing to happen (to be honest, even with a normal recruitment policy in asc (ie, jbg/jester recruiting upon recommendations), you'd still have as many applications). The accusation is that you should acknowledge this, and refuse some people.

The ascendancy reply to that is "why should we?.... <rant about the asc-philosophy>" - and thats fine, this is where difference in opinions kick in. People who say asc are ruining the game have merit in their points, asc's defence is pretty solid as well. Each to their own. Sadly, I wouldn't mind betting that it will be asc that back down and change their system to help the game...

edit: it was a nice description of the ARP though! But it would have been better without all the standard brags.
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Unread 22 May 2009, 20:46   #8
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

That leads me to my next question, Who the hell voted for Kila?
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Unread 22 May 2009, 20:57   #9
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

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Originally Posted by Rinoa View Post
That leads me to my next question, Who the hell voted for Kila?
[20:57:21] -Munin- proposition 94 (18 days old): invite Kila. achi commented 'Decent player with good activity who is looking for alliance primarily to attack with. While some may have personal issues with him I think we need the firepower and he is no worse than most of you faggots anyway.'. This prop expired 17 days ago.
[20:57:23] -Munin- The prop passed by a vote of 1602 to 447. The voters in favor were (mz (160), jester (200), marty (119), lokken (1), jbg (100), zaejii (152), IsildurX (52), Kael (10), mista (62), kaneed (20), smasher (30), Olata (20), Anne (204), posi (400), Considence (33), dec (39)) and against (raging-retard (60), thestoom (358), eisoh (28), Theamion (1))
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Unread 23 May 2009, 00:15   #10
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

You've really just explained how you break the ally limit.
You could have done all this same fun stuff, but only with actually sticking to the ally limit too.
And why would you do this? because its a rule.
Just like you could play 30 accounts and I'm sure you could make some fun system and reason for playing 30 accounts , but you dont do that because theres a rule against it.
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Unread 23 May 2009, 00:20   #11
Knight Theamion
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

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Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
You've really just explained how you break the ally limit.
You could have done all this same fun stuff, but only with actually sticking to the ally limit too.
And why would you do this? because its a rule.
Just like you could play 30 accounts and I'm sure you could make some fun system and reason for playing 30 accounts , but you dont do that because theres a rule against it.

Can you please get the EULA for me and manual and any other form of written thing by the PA Team where this 'rule' is stated?

I will refer to it as 'arbitrary Shhhhhhh-rule #1': You cannot play with the people you like if this group exceed 90 people!


(If you do not understand my mockery: You are wrong and not understanding what I am saying or you are deliberately ignorant and are trying to badmouth Ascendancy. I am sure there are other options but I am guessing they all and the aforementioned will result to the same conclusion that you are making yourself look like an idiot.)
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Unread 23 May 2009, 00:29   #12
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newt View Post
Some would say a thread like this belongs in the alliance recruitment forums (ARF!) - but seemingly not lokken, so nevermind.

Anyway - lets get to the real point of this thread, implicit in your wording and certain repetition of principles: Yes, we know ascendancy is awesome theamion, take a ****ing break will you? A good winner is one that doesn't constantly brag... especially when your role in the awesomeness is miniscule.
This seems to be a political statement rather than a "come join us!" post, so it belongs here.

I don't see what's objectionable explaining to people how Ascendancy's recruitment works when it's been such a hot topic here. Perhaps you could suggest why it should be on AR?
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Unread 23 May 2009, 00:45   #13
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
Can you please get the EULA for me and manual and any other form of written thing by the PA Team where this 'rule' is stated?

I will refer to it as 'arbitrary Shhhhhhh-rule #1': You cannot play with the people you like if this group exceed 90 people!


(If you do not understand my mockery: You are wrong and not understanding what I am saying or you are deliberately ignorant and are trying to badmouth Ascendancy. I am sure there are other options but I am guessing they all and the aforementioned will result to the same conclusion that you are making yourself look like an idiot.)

Round 31 Signups OpenPosted at 20:19 GMT on Monday 13th April 2009
By Cincinnatus.

We're pleased to announce that Round 31 signups are now open. You can signup at http://round31.planetarion.com/signup.pl

The following are a summary of the changes:

Round 31
- changed alliance limit to 90
- covert op training now instant
- inactive planets are now exiled more quickly



And tbh, I dont really understand it yes, maybe it's because this is my first round, but so far all games i've played an alliance limit meant an alliance limit.
So if they say the alliance limit is 90, its not weird to assume it means the limit is 90. As in don't get more than 90 members.

So in short, no I dont understand how you think it's ok if there is an alliance limit of 90, to get over 120 members. And even at that point don't close recruitment.
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Unread 23 May 2009, 00:57   #14
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

Seems we have a difference on opinion what constitutes an alliance. You can only have 90 planets in the tag (of which 60 count). However this is the hardcoded section in the game. There is noone stating that if you have someone who is perfectly happy to play out-of-tag or play in a support tag that those people are not allowed to do so. I am making a difference between tag and alliance. Because lets face it (and PA Team has faced this, revoking the support rule) you cannot stop people cooperating, and cooperation is what makes this game fun, so why would you try to?
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Unread 23 May 2009, 01:03   #15
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

god, lokken. remove this ****ing thread from ad.
Or can we have all diff. alliances tell how they do their recruitment on AD also? sigh

No one cares about recruitment policy of an alliance, and if they actually do I m sure they would go to Alliance Recruitment, and read about it there if that was the case. Also, Its not like this is new anyway.
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Unread 23 May 2009, 01:05   #16
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken View Post
This seems to be a political statement rather than a "come join us!" post, so it belongs here.

I don't see what's objectionable explaining to people how Ascendancy's recruitment works when it's been such a hot topic here. Perhaps you could suggest why it should be on AR?
If a new thread was made on AD everytime something was debated in a going-round-in-circles way on AD, there would be a lot of threads like this.

I dont think this thread belongs anywhere. Theamion jsut has an inbuilt desire to brag about his alliance. Only use of this thread is to explain to people how you may go about getting into ascendancy. Sounds like something for AR.

Tomorrow I will make an 'eXcessum recruitment policy' thread on AD - I'm sure a lot of people have been confused by it in recent years. Pity it'll get deleted/moved ... though not if there was someone in eXcessum that was an AD MOD. Oh well.

edit: me and wish posted totally coincidentally! only thing we've said to each other today was about Christiano Ronaldo Scout's honour. And hi-five wish!
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Unread 23 May 2009, 01:09   #17
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

I am pro more threads on AD. Go wild!
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Unread 23 May 2009, 01:20   #18
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

A tag is just a tag, an alliance is all those people working together and playing together. Alliance limit is 90, which is obviously intended to keep alliances around the same size, give smaller alliances a chance too and stuff like that.

I think the rules and the intent of the rules are quite clear, the only problem is that they're very difficult to enforce, which makes it easy for you guys ( and I'm sure a ton of others before you this isnt really about asc) to get away with it. So you basically have the choice to break the rules with a very low chance of getting caught, but getting an unfair advantage because of breaking the rules, or not breaking the rules.
I know theres a ton of grey area's and you could just as easily call a few bg's who work together 1 big alliance who's breaking the ally limit.
But even then, this whole thing would work best if all alliances at least try to follow the limit. Now if you have 90 members and some guy has a friend somewhere who can send def to one of your members one time, nobody is gonna make a big deal out of it, but the way Asc is doing it now, with simply not caring at all about the ally limit and just recruiting onwards seems a bit over the top.

If alliance HC would stick to the 90 ally limit (it really does say ally limit and not tag limit) you would still have cooperation, you would still see people working together and sides would ofcourse still be over 90 members, but the difference is that these kinda sides are fluid, as we see this round people switch sides and it keeps the game from being boring really quickly. There's politics and diplomacy between the various alliances. Which determines who has a numerical advantage over who at different points in the game, but if 1 ally broke the ally limit, they'll always have the extra advantage.
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Unread 23 May 2009, 01:33   #19
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

It actually doesn't matter that much Shhh (or whatever you nick is). If we would've put all planets that were definately not getting into Ascendancy into another tag (as we actually did), called it a BG, allied it and integrated in in our one alliance channel, would've that been better? The point is that you cannot force people playing with friends and people they like.

The point of this post though, which you conveniently circumvent is that we by no means thought: Hey, let's recruit every man and his dog.
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Unread 23 May 2009, 12:16   #20
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

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Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
It actually doesn't matter that much Shhh (or whatever you nick is). If we would've put all planets that were definately not getting into Ascendancy into another tag (as we actually did), called it a BG, allied it and integrated in in our one alliance channel, would've that been better? The point is that you cannot force people playing with friends and people they like.

The point of this post though, which you conveniently circumvent is that we by no means thought: Hey, let's recruit every man and his dog.
No both would be breaking the ally limit, only difference is that this way you're trying to make it harder to get caught.
While in the current way it's more just giving the finger to admins and the rest of the game since you know you won't be punished for it by admins.

And isnt what you described exactly 'recruit every man and his dog' I don't see any limit being put on your recruitment.
Everyone can invite anyone and all it needs is a vote from the members.
But I guess the difference you want to point at, is that the HC didnt make the decision to invite everyone and their dog, they simply put the system in place that made this possible and made it happen.
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Unread 23 May 2009, 12:54   #21
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

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Originally Posted by Knight Theamion View Post
The point of this post though, which you conveniently circumvent is that we by no means thought: Hey, let's recruit every man and his dog.
Hold on for a second... I always thought we would recruit every man and his dog? Even you were allowed in, after all

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
No both would be breaking the ally limit, only difference is that this way you're trying to make it harder to get caught.
While in the current way it's more just giving the finger to admins and the rest of the game since you know you won't be punished for it by admins.
Well, the 90 members is a hardcoded ingame limit which means "only 90 people playing together can get the ingame tool advantage, like -1 def eta and alliance status".

If they would not want to allow cooperation outside those boundaries they'd just hardcode defense missions and stuff like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
And isnt what you described exactly 'recruit every man and his dog' I don't see any limit being put on your recruitment.
Everyone can invite anyone and all it needs is a vote from the members.
But I guess the difference you want to point at, is that the HC didnt make the decision to invite everyone and their dog, they simply put the system in place that made this possible and made it happen.
No, inviting every man and his dog refers to simply let everyone in who applies, which obviously does not happen to that extreme. Even though about 90% of the propositions turn out to be successful, it's still a difference. Not your fault, though, a lot of people in this post-modernist world are incapable of spotting those semantical nuances; just like most people on those forums are fairly unable to keep a nice discussion.
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Unread 23 May 2009, 13:28   #22
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shhhhhhh View Post
No both would be breaking the ally limit, only difference is that this way you're trying to make it harder to get caught.
While in the current way it's more just giving the finger to admins and the rest of the game since you know you won't be punished for it by admins.
There is no "getting caught", we're not breaking any rules. Ultimately that's all that matters.
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Unread 23 May 2009, 15:02   #23
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

I'd make a thread about SPOOOOOON's recruitment policy, but there isn't one. We're just a totalitarian state with a hint of anarchy and a firm love of cutlery.

There's too much hate abounding lately. I can see why this thread was made, and frankly it makes decent sense if you don't consider the actual numbers still actively playing this game. That's the only real issue here - Asc can recruit however they want, but the tag limits and alliance sizes simply don't allow more than one or two fully active war machines nowadays. This is more the fault of the community and the PA Team than Asc.
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Unread 23 May 2009, 15:30   #24
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
we're not breaking any rules. Ultimately that's all that matters.
There's a political scandal in the UK at the moment about members of parliament claiming too much money. Ok 1 or 2 have done something against the law/rules, but most haven't - they've just taken advantage of loopholes in the rules.

They too aren't breaking any rules - but yet the public has spoken, and many will lose their jobs and are branded unethical ****faces.

Similarly, the public is speaking on ascendancy at the moment, doubt you'll all get banned from pa though ;( But hope springs eternal!
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Unread 23 May 2009, 15:51   #25
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

All's fair in love and war?
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Unread 23 May 2009, 20:18   #26
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

Is this war or a war game? A game is supposed to be a contest of skill on an equal playing field.
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Unread 23 May 2009, 20:53   #27
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

In contests, there are certain rules everyone has to adhere to. In Planetarion there are three types of rules: hardcoded game rules, soft EULA rules and community guidelines.

No one can break game rules, it's impossible. Examples of game rules are "each planet has 3 fleets and a base", "tags can have at most 90 members, of which 60 count" and even "the Recluse is a Cathaar fighter that targets enemy frigates and destroyers".

The multihunters oversee the adherence to EULA rules. These include "you are not allowed to farm or let yourself be farmed", "do not share your account with other people" and "you can only have one planet". Breaking these rules, if caught, gets your planet closed and deleted. In the past "you are not allowed to have more planets in your alliance than your tag allows" was a rule that fell under this heading.

Community guidelines are things that are commonly taken to be morally right. Not adhering to them is generally seen as dishonorable but they are not enforced by the powers that be. "Do not relay information from an alliance channel to another alliance", "backstabbing is bad" and (when they were dropped from the soft rules) "don't have more planets in your alliance than your tag allows".

Unlike in the real world, there is a very clear line between these three types of rules. We can break all the community guidelines we want, neither the game nor the multihunters have jurisdiction there. We may be hated for it, true, but that doesn't mean it's illegal.



The skill that you are so fond of plays its part in forming and maintaining alliances too. Skill isn't just what we do ingame. Where we send our fleets, what research we do, what constructions we build; it's important, it's how we build our planets, but it's only a small piece of the picture. There's a whole world outside of the game, commonly known as the meta-game. Who we talk to, who we form alliances with, what channels, bcalcs and bots we use, the PMs you get from that asshole who just won't leave your planet alone; those things don't have an ingame representation. In that, Planetarion is very sophisticated; we don't play against virtual avatars, we play against real human beings. If I have a bad day, you'll be hard pressed to discover a sign of that ingame, but in the meta-game, on IRC, on these forums, it shouldn't be hard to see that at all.

Where I'm going with this is that there's ingame skill and meta-game skill. The skill set needed to do well in the meta-game entails your ability to form agreements with other alliances. A willingness to call people in the middle of the night because you really need that Phantom fleet to cover your incomings. And yes, were finally getting to the topic of this post, how good you are at recruiting people into your alliance.



In this post I've tried to explain what this game entails, what the various types of rules are and what "skill" is. Over the last few rounds I've gotten the feeling that many people have lost track of what it means to play Planetarion. The skill required to recruit people into your alliance is very different from the skill required in deciding what research to do next or whether to init another 50 roids before the end of protection, but both play a very real and important part in what PA has always been. If you choose to ignore part of that skill set because it goes against the community guidelines or your personal definition of honour, that's fine, but don't complain when others choose not to. Or rather, complain all you wish, because that's as much part of this game as everything else I just said.
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Unread 23 May 2009, 21:17   #28
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

Agreed.

I was of the opinion it's been a 'should we bring back the support planet rule' debate for a while now, rather than anyone accusing Asc of breaking rules.
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Unread 23 May 2009, 21:24   #29
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

I made a rather substantial addition after you agreed with me, you might want to review it to make sure you still do. :P
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 2 Jun 2009, 18:44   #30
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

i'd be very intrested to know exactly why (from PA Team not a regular joe) the "don't have more planets in your alliance than your tag allows" was dropped as a rule the Hunters could enforce. Is it because PATeam felt it was a stupid rule, or was it because PATeam felt they didn't have the tools / time to enforce it.

If it's the former, everything you said is valid Mz. If its the latter then everything you said is just spin. Well worded and eloquent spin, but spin nonetheless.
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Unread 2 Jun 2009, 19:22   #31
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Re: Ascendancy Recruitment Policy (ARP!)

I disagree. Their motivations in this discussion are barely relevant, if at all. Your argumentation reeks of "well, we can't enforce the support planet rule, so what we're going to do is drop the rule but you should still adhere to it", which is something I really cannot take seriously.

All that said, I would be interested in their answer as well, out of curiosity more than anything.
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