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Unread 6 May 2009, 21:46   #1
Kal
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Some further observations

To continue my series of threads I'd like to discuss what its like for the semi active once attacking is going properly.

To do this I need to add some more background and risk give away details about my planet, but what the hell.

I'm in a top 20 alliance, as is most of my galaxy, only one member is in a top 10 alliance.

Until my galaxy was attacked we were top 10, and normally top 5. We were all active attackers, I myself was a top 10 planet at times. Things were good considering we wern't active.

Then we got attacked - 3-4 waves. None of us got any defence form our alliances and very little from each other. This is where the semi-actives loose - they don't get defence. If it wasn't for my experience in the game (running fleet etc.) then I now would have no ships and would have given up playing the game.

This I think is a huge problem, multi wave attacks have a real possibility of making new players quit the game just as they were starting to get interested and do well.

Given the importance of XP, loosing roids isn't that big an issue right now - but loosing ships is. We need a way to protect thoose ships so that new players don't loose them and quit. (not wanting to suggest, but perhaps allowing ships in base fleet to be immune from combat or something).

The other issue here is that its distinctly depressing to see a galaxy status with 3+ waves of incs and no defence. I remember in the olden days an alliance would attack multiple galaxies with a single wave rather than multi-waving a target. In my mind multi-waving is hugely bad for morale. It has just occured to me that the prevalence of multiwaving occured after we moved from 3 tick attacks to single tick attacks - perhaps a return to multi-tick attacks would remove the need for multi-waves?

Now enough about the depression that is defence - what about attacks? On many of my attacks I've been annoyed to find other alliances hitting the same targets, while probably less annoying for the new player, its very annoying for me. To solve this I would very much like to see more advanced war/combat features where unless attacking fleets are on the same "side" they will attack each other.


The interesting thing here, is that as I've got back into the game more the user interface issues have annoyed me less and I've now switched my annoyance to game mechanics, and the way existing players and alliances interact with them (note I'm also annoyed that my own alliance uses the very tactics I think put new players off).

So in simple terms, I think the following needs to be done to grow the game:
-fix the interface
-fix the mechanics - make it harder for people to be wiped out, more friendly, but without reducing the complexity that current players love.

I will reiterate that a lot is right about the game, things like quests, population, government, races, etc. are all interesting and the current practise of tweaking will largly work for theese areas.
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Unread 6 May 2009, 22:09   #2
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Re: Some further observations

I enjoy these
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Unread 6 May 2009, 23:20   #3
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Re: Some further observations

Thanks for another one of these posts, they're very interesting reads. You're confirming several things I've suspected for a while now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal View Post
Then we got attacked - 3-4 waves. None of us got any defence form our alliances and very little from each other. This is where the semi-actives loose - they don't get defence. If it wasn't for my experience in the game (running fleet etc.) then I now would have no ships and would have given up playing the game.

This I think is a huge problem, multi wave attacks have a real possibility of making new players quit the game just as they were starting to get interested and do well.

Given the importance of XP, loosing roids isn't that big an issue right now - but loosing ships is. We need a way to protect thoose ships so that new players don't loose them and quit. (not wanting to suggest, but perhaps allowing ships in base fleet to be immune from combat or something).
I totally agree here. The reason many people lose their ships is because keeping your ships alive at base requires a conscious effort. When I send defence somewhere, I do so in the knowledge they might suffer losses. If I do not want this, I can refrain from sending, and they won't fight. Ditto for attacking. But when I'm defending my own planet, I need to make an effort to prevent my ships from dying.

In my opinion, fighting should be a conscious decision, not something that happens automatically. It is reasonable to assume that not sending ships out keeps them safe. Even the name of the home fleet, "base", suggests that the ships are inactive.

I have recently suggested in several places that ships at the home planet should no longer automatically participate in battles. This prevents planets from losing ships due to inactivity and hopefully make sure that people don't leave because they keep getting killed. As you said, losing roids isn't such a big deal; losing ships is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal View Post
The other issue here is that its distinctly depressing to see a galaxy status with 3+ waves of incs and no defence. I remember in the olden days an alliance would attack multiple galaxies with a single wave rather than multi-waving a target. In my mind multi-waving is hugely bad for morale. It has just occured to me that the prevalence of multiwaving occured after we moved from 3 tick attacks to single tick attacks - perhaps a return to multi-tick attacks would remove the need for multi-waves?
The reason alliances send between 4 and 8 waves per planet is because it works. Many planets in top20 galaxies have no trouble gettting several waves worth of defence, but once the defence runs out, all fleets get trough. Let me give you an example to illustrate my point.

Let's say I am an average player in xVx. If I get 3 waves of incoming, my alliance will be able to 2 of those, no problem. The attackers will cap 1 wave. On the other hand, if I get 6 waves of incoming, my alliance will still only be able to cover 2 waves, allowing 4 waves of capping. In this particular case, a 100% increase in waves yields a 273% increase in roid cap.

Multi tick attacks will not prevent waving, because the basic premise stays the same: more waves equals better cap.

Multi tick defence might help a bit, because the same defence fleet can be used to defend two attacking fleets. You'd be forced to send same-class attacks several ticks apart. On the other hand, it'd be easy to send a cr/bs fleet for tick X and a fi/co fleet for tick X+1. The defence for the cr/bs fleet has already launched by the time the fi/co show up, and the defence sent could easily die. I am certain there are several unexpected side effects to this as well.

Another way to reduce the number of waves per planet would be by making attacking easier. When people no longer have to worry about defence so much, it will pay off to launch on more targets, simply because the last wave on a target doesn't cap as much as the first wave on another target could. On the other hand, the loss per attack would stay roughly the same, plus the bonds that hold alliances together (defending, not attacking) would be weakened, which might be a very bad thing for the community. Here too, lots of side effects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal View Post
Now enough about the depression that is defence - what about attacks? On many of my attacks I've been annoyed to find other alliances hitting the same targets, while probably less annoying for the new player, its very annoying for me. To solve this I would very much like to see more advanced war/combat features where unless attacking fleets are on the same "side" they will attack each other.
The issue here is that there are simply fewer targets now than there were 15 rounds ago. Generally speaking, non-alliance players are less active on the attacking front: they're basically there for target practice only. Back in round 16, we had 1851 non-alliance players. In round 29, we had 533. More targets equals a higher chance of piggying. (You're always piggied by someone else, you never piggy someone else. This is one of the basic laws of PA.)
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Unread 6 May 2009, 23:44   #4
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Re: Some further observations

Mzyxptlk,

thanks for an interesting reply. I agree with you that multi wave attacks are needed to hit the decent alliances. however they absolutely kill the less decent alliances (ironically the less decent alliances also use multi-wave attacks).

There are ways the advantages of multi wave attacks could be reduced through game mechanics (I'd still suggest multi-tick attacks might be one way, as fleets are held up for longer so players might not be able to launch fleets every night).

However, if the advantages of multi-wave attacks were reduced, would this lead to more stagnation among the top alliances and therefore less interesting rounds for the active players?


On the piggying front, perhaps the solution here is to have huge numbers of bot planets of various "skill" levels to reduce the probability of alliances picking the same targets. As an interesting connection to the point on multi-waves - I'm wondering what impact an end to multi-wave attacks would have on piggying.
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Unread 6 May 2009, 23:51   #5
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Re: Some further observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Multi tick defence might help a bit, because the same defence fleet can be used to defend two attacking fleets. You'd be forced to send same-class attacks several ticks apart. On the other hand, it'd be easy to send a cr/bs fleet for tick X and a fi/co fleet for tick X+1. The defence for the cr/bs fleet has already launched by the time the fi/co show up, and the defence sent could easily die. I am certain there are several unexpected side effects to this as well.
I quite like this idea. Although if you give people the choice whether to defend for 1 or 2 ticks (when they launch there fleet) then you could limit "surprises" So you could pick which tick you wanted to defend and if your defense fleet could help for 2 ticks then you pick to let it stay for 2 ticks etc The defenders would get more XP. It could though, make it v.hard to defend against and then the pendulum has swung the other way!

I still like the idea......
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Unread 7 May 2009, 00:02   #6
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Re: Some further observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal View Post
Now enough about the depression that is defence - what about attacks? On many of my attacks I've been annoyed to find other alliances hitting the same targets, while probably less annoying for the new player, its very annoying for me. To solve this I would very much like to see more advanced war/combat features where unless attacking fleets are on the same "side" they will attack each other.
This could be a nice feature.

How the fudge it would be implemented i have no idea!

However on the side of being "noob friendly" i have to say the thought of calcing the defense AND the other attacking ships as well could make things even more complicated when deciding whether to land...
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Unread 7 May 2009, 00:12   #7
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Re: Some further observations

Whilst I do think that it should be easier for newer players/more casual players to run their ships, having to make the decision to make your ships participate in defence at base is yet another disadvantage to those who aren't online when they're attacked and means that people who are unable to be on PA for ~10 hours are so much harder to cover than they already are.

As for the "no defence" thing - disregarding alliance defence, it's not really that hard to cover one or two calls with ingal def, especially if most of you were going to run your fleets anyway. All it takes is a little organisation (I have X free, I have Y free) and not a huge amount of activity.
But I guess the fact that you're all being raided and look like you're losing roids is going to make morale. Maybe sorting out ingal def should be made easier/being waved should be a little less demoralising?
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Unread 7 May 2009, 01:48   #8
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Re: Some further observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_ View Post
Whilst I do think that it should be easier for newer players/more casual players to run their ships, having to make the decision to make your ships participate in defence at base is yet another disadvantage to those who aren't online when they're attacked and means that people who are unable to be on PA for ~10 hours are so much harder to cover than they already are.
I think an easy fix is simply to allow people to choose whether ships participate in battles at home or not. Just have a tick box in preferences (or wherever), where you confirm that you want your ships to take part. Obviously it should automatically be set to "ships does NOT take part in home battles", as the people who can rely on getting def are mostly likely experienced players in 'good' alliances.
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Unread 7 May 2009, 02:00   #9
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Re: Some further observations

Kal, what is your current view on the stats?

The way I see them they are just confusing for the new players, especially since they change all the time and the increased roider types.
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Unread 7 May 2009, 02:06   #10
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Re: Some further observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by _Kila_ View Post
As for the "no defence" thing - disregarding alliance defence, it's not really that hard to cover one or two calls with ingal def, especially if most of you were going to run your fleets anyway. All it takes is a little organisation (I have X free, I have Y free) and not a huge amount of activity.
But I guess the fact that you're all being raided and look like you're losing roids is going to make morale. Maybe sorting out ingal def should be made easier/being waved should be a little less demoralising?
More interface issues.

It would probably make a galaxies job much easier if they could actually put relevant comments on the galaxy status screen. Ideally I'd like to be able to quickly add links to any scans, links to bcalc results, the ability to add comments to say things like who covered it. All we've got is one damn report button which sends a message to the alliance.

At the moment galaxies are forced to either use the forums (which aren't exactly great) or IRC to organise defence. It's not good enough - the game needs decent functionality which allows galaxies to work as a team more easily.
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Unread 7 May 2009, 03:05   #11
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Exclamation Re: Some further observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by r2baz View Post
I quite like this idea. Although if you give people the choice whether to defend for 1 or 2 ticks (when they launch there fleet) then you could limit "surprises" So you could pick which tick you wanted to defend and if your defense fleet could help for 2 ticks then you pick to let it stay for 2 ticks etc The defenders would get more XP. It could though, make it v.hard to defend against and then the pendulum has swung the other way!

I still like the idea......
PA originally had up to 3-tick attack and up to 6-tick defend (you could always set less and/or recall early). The extra defend ticks didn't help with single attacks (unless you wanted to launch def. early--this was before prelaunch), but was quite handy when there were multiple attacks and especially waves.

I never understood why, when PA went to 1-tick attacks it didn't keep at least a 2-tick defend.

Of course it makes defending easier (although really only against multiple attacks), but by its nature defense has always been harder than attacking--even with 6-tick defend.
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Unread 7 May 2009, 03:53   #12
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Re: Some further observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal View Post
We need a way to protect thoose ships so that new players don't loose them and quit. (not wanting to suggest, but perhaps allowing ships in base fleet to be immune from combat or something).
I couldn't resist pointing out this thread:
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=184840
and your answer for declining the suggestion was:
"I think being able to hide is a bad thing"
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Unread 7 May 2009, 07:07   #13
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Re: Some further observations

Quote:
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I think an easy fix is simply to allow people to choose whether ships participate in battles at home or not. Just have a tick box in preferences (or wherever), where you confirm that you want your ships to take part. Obviously it should automatically be set to "ships does NOT take part in home battles", as the people who can rely on getting def are mostly likely experienced players in 'good' alliances.
how about letting the base fleet have missions - i.e. on missions page you can set base fleet to defend, but rather than for a specific tick - its essentially in defence mode or not in defence mode.

I think this would be better from an interface point of view as it keeps everything about fleet orders in one place.
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Unread 7 May 2009, 07:08   #14
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Re: Some further observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool View Post
Kal, what is your current view on the stats?

The way I see them they are just confusing for the new players, especially since they change all the time and the increased roider types.
I'll make my next thread about stats - last time I played it was 4 races and single targetting etc. - so yes stats are quite confusing to me now!
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Unread 7 May 2009, 07:11   #15
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Re: Some further observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by GReaper View Post
More interface issues.

It would probably make a galaxies job much easier if they could actually put relevant comments on the galaxy status screen. Ideally I'd like to be able to quickly add links to any scans, links to bcalc results, the ability to add comments to say things like who covered it. All we've got is one damn report button which sends a message to the alliance.

At the moment galaxies are forced to either use the forums (which aren't exactly great) or IRC to organise defence. It's not good enough - the game needs decent functionality which allows galaxies to work as a team more easily.
I couldn't agree me - more tools to organise in gal defence without the need for irc are essential.

I'll also pull out something on the report defence button here. every night my gal had incs I looked at gal status and saw it was all reported - I then wandered why we had no defence. its becuase while someone had hit the reported button, no one had messaged the alliance defence channels. This is becuase the person who reported them in game couldn't get on irc, but the people who came online a tick later who could get on irc though the def was already reported.... hence alliances new nothing of the attacks.

This is another area where the ability to add notes to galstatus would be hugely useful.
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Unread 7 May 2009, 07:13   #16
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Re: Some further observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil View Post
I couldn't resist pointing out this thread:
http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=184840
and your answer for declining the suggestion was:
"I think being able to hide is a bad thing"
Oops - I was a little dismissive there and very very wrong!
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Unread 7 May 2009, 08:43   #17
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Re: Some further observations

Quote:
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Mzyxptlk,

thanks for an interesting reply. I agree with you that multi wave attacks are needed to hit the decent alliances. however they absolutely kill the less decent alliances (ironically the less decent alliances also use multi-wave attacks).
As mz already said: it's because multi-wave attacks work. And it is much safer for a raid to be effective to focus on a few targets instead of stretching your firepower over most likely too many targets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal View Post
There are ways the advantages of multi wave attacks could be reduced through game mechanics (I'd still suggest multi-tick attacks might be one way, as fleets are held up for longer so players might not be able to launch fleets every night).

However, if the advantages of multi-wave attacks were reduced, would this lead to more stagnation among the top alliances and therefore less interesting rounds for the active players?
Err... the problem with waving is that waved planets lose over multiple ticks in a row. You do not solve that by making it part of the game mechanic to allow attacking over multiple ticks. In fact, from a pure mathematical point of view, multi-tick attacks make the problem even worse - since one fleet slot can cap more roids with less traveltime.

Multi-tick defense, as already mentioned, is the correct way to approach this problem.
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Unread 7 May 2009, 09:06   #18
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Re: Some further observations

From memory, didn't multi-wave attacks cap the same regardless of how long they were there? i.e. 30% if they were there for one tick, 15% a tick if they were there for 2 ticks and 10% a tick if they were there for 3 ticks? (Using random figures).
My memory isn't known for being the greatest though, so I may be wrong.
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Unread 7 May 2009, 09:10   #19
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Re: Some further observations

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Originally Posted by TheBerk View Post
From memory, didn't multi-wave attacks cap the same regardless of how long they were there? i.e. 30% if they were there for one tick, 15% a tick if they were there for 2 ticks and 10% a tick if they were there for 3 ticks? (Using random figures).
My memory isn't known for being the greatest though, so I may be wrong.
No they did all have the chance for full cap. Since it was value based capping back then, though, you could end up with not capping max after combat tick one in case you destroyed the planets fleet, and thus reduced its value.
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Unread 7 May 2009, 10:07   #20
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Re: Some further observations

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Originally Posted by Kal View Post
how about letting the base fleet have missions - i.e. on missions page you can set base fleet to defend, but rather than for a specific tick - its essentially in defence mode or not in defence mode.

I think this would be better from an interface point of view as it keeps everything about fleet orders in one place.
To the suggested 2 missions:
- Defend (the fleet fight as it is now)
- Retreat (the fleet doesn't take part in combat)

we could add:
- Skirmish (only the ships with init advantage fire and can be fired at)
- Patrol (the enemy is spotted at eta1 and gives you the same info as a fleet scan)
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Unread 7 May 2009, 12:58   #21
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Re: Some further observations

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Originally Posted by Heartless View Post
Multi-tick defense, as already mentioned, is the correct way to approach this problem.
Actually, since you're the second to misinterpret my post, let me clarify: I said this was was a bad idea, not a good one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by me
Multi tick defence might help a bit, because the same defence fleet can be used to defend two attacking fleets. You'd be forced to send same-class attacks several ticks apart. On the other hand, it'd be easy to send a cr/bs fleet for tick X and a fi/co fleet for tick X+1. The defence for the cr/bs fleet has already launched by the time the fi/co show up, and the defence sent could easily die. I am certain there are several unexpected side effects to this as well.
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Unread 7 May 2009, 16:57   #22
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Re: Some further observations

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Actually, since you're the second to misinterpret my post, let me clarify: I said this was was a bad idea, not a good one.
Oh, OK, agreed. But then again, for clearification, I did not want to reply to your post, just wanted to point out why Kal's idea of multi-tick attacks would be counter-productive to solve this issue.

Good to see that we also know that multi-tick defense does not help. I agree after further considerations and stand corrected.
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Unread 7 May 2009, 21:04   #23
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Re: Some further observations

I'm not sure about Kal's point about "in the old days alliances only attacked for 1 wave". I think this was mainly because ships could be sent to attack for 3 ticks in a row, rather than just the 1.
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Unread 7 May 2009, 21:58   #24
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Re: Some further observations

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Originally Posted by Tomkat View Post
I'm not sure about Kal's point about "in the old days alliances only attacked for 1 wave". I think this was mainly because ships could be sent to attack for 3 ticks in a row, rather than just the 1.
Thats what I think as well... I know my view the mutli tick attacking would cut down multi-waving hasn;t gone down right, but I'll try again.

Cut down maximum cap per tick - i.e. 3 tick attack gets you same number of roids as current 1 tick attack.

next point is - if you have a free tick attack your fleet may not be back in time for you to prelaunch the next night. This results in the alliances having less fleets available to attack, meaning multi-waving is harder. (note it probabaly wouldn;t be harder for the hardcore alliances who don;t prelaunch - so this only cuts out the lower tier alliances multiwaving).

So say this does cut down multi waving, it also cuts down attacking effectiveness and makes defence easier. That probabaly makes the game boring... as attacking is fun.

I'm not actually sure there is a good way of preventing people loosing their fleets and keeping attacking fun.
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Unread 7 May 2009, 22:37   #25
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Re: Some further observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal View Post
Cut down maximum cap per tick - i.e. 3 tick attack gets you same number of roids as current 1 tick attack.
Yes, you mean like pre r10. 15% per tick was deemed to be ~ the same (though you're totally ignoring all the extra pressure on ships having to last for 3 ticks not 1, and all the subsequent modifications to ship stats, etc)

Quote:
next point is - if you have a free tick attack your fleet may not be back in time for you to prelaunch the next night.
This results in the alliances having less fleets available to attack, meaning multi-waving is harder. (note it probabaly wouldn;t be harder for the hardcore alliances who don;t prelaunch - so this only cuts out the lower tier alliances multiwaving).
Most people choose the same launch times.
10 ticks there
10 ticks back
3 ticks attacking
=23 ticks.
So you're ok. If you don't prelaunch.
If you do prelaunch, you'll be forced to pick a lower ETA fleet - probably Fi/Co for less active planets - which will save you 4 ticks, and allow you to launch at e.g. 2-4 GMT. I don't see why you want to harm the smaller alliances more than the bigger alliances, who will piggy back the earlier LTs and take advantage of less defence in the window before galaxies 'wake up' though

Trying to change the 1 attack/day possibility for players is futile, and will only severely irritate already overworked DCs/BCs and possibly drop alliance activity in those alliances that are already struggling.

Quote:

So say this does cut down multi waving, it also cuts down attacking effectiveness and makes defence easier. That probabaly makes the game boring... as attacking is fun.

I'm not actually sure there is a good way of preventing people loosing their fleets and keeping attacking fun.
Your multi tick attack is 3x as hard on ships, and makes bashing 3x more powerful OR makes defence even harder. You seem to be wanting players to lose more, and to force more piggying.

I think the most important points are:
a) creating more targets (which I believe can only be done by attracting more semi active players or by making more (better) bot planets)
b) allowing the option in the missions page to change your fleet to fight / not fight. It obviously makes any sort of fleet catching harder
c) increasing salvage more for smaller players (and probably generally a slight increase after this round's drop).
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Unread 7 May 2009, 23:23   #26
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Re: Some further observations

I played rounds 1-5 then returned in round 16. Things weren't THAT hard to pick up once you set your mind to it. If people want to play the game they'll learn.

While i'm not criticising your opinions kal, a lot of them seem to be based on how the game used to be. "lets bring that back, that used to be a good idea" sort of thing. I might be misinterpreting what you're saying though. If i am i apologise.

Obviously i'm in F-crew and we see a lot of people come and go each round. Many have played previous rounds and a common question is "what happened to PDS?". I suppose the game seems normal to people who never stopped playing it because of the constant change, and people who have taken many rounds out might be intimidated by the large differences. But revisiting old methods and functions seems like taking a step back.

I can see your concern regarding planets getting wiped out through multiple waves though and we reiterate to our recruits the prelaunch function and the "ships are more important than roids" philosophy and i agree this isn't made apparent enough in the build up to end of protection.

My apologies for waffling but thought i'd share some experiences I've had with people in the same boat as you.
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Unread 7 May 2009, 23:43   #27
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Re: Some further observations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post

I think the most important points are:
a) creating more targets (which I believe can only be done by attracting more semi active players or by making more (better) bot planets)
b) allowing the option in the missions page to change your fleet to fight / not fight. It obviously makes any sort of fleet catching harder
c) increasing salvage more for smaller players (and probably generally a slight increase after this round's drop).

I would agree all of thoose points might well have uses. I'm sure there would be some way to allow fleet catches or alternativly change the game in some other way to make them unnecessary.
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Unread 7 May 2009, 23:47   #28
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Re: Some further observations

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Originally Posted by [DW]Entropy View Post
I played rounds 1-5 then returned in round 16. Things weren't THAT hard to pick up once you set your mind to it. If people want to play the game they'll learn.

While i'm not criticising your opinions kal, a lot of them seem to be based on how the game used to be. "lets bring that back, that used to be a good idea" sort of thing. I might be misinterpreting what you're saying though. If i am i apologise.

Obviously i'm in F-crew and we see a lot of people come and go each round. Many have played previous rounds and a common question is "what happened to PDS?". I suppose the game seems normal to people who never stopped playing it because of the constant change, and people who have taken many rounds out might be intimidated by the large differences. But revisiting old methods and functions seems like taking a step back.

I can see your concern regarding planets getting wiped out through multiple waves though and we reiterate to our recruits the prelaunch function and the "ships are more important than roids" philosophy and i agree this isn't made apparent enough in the build up to end of protection.

My apologies for waffling but thought i'd share some experiences I've had with people in the same boat as you.
Thanks for your interesting reply. I certainly didn't mean to make out that the old way of doing things was better. I was really reflecting on the times when I was a BC. Back in thoose days we tended to hit multiple galaxies rather than wave one galaxy. The only time we did waving was during alliance wars. The only real reason I brought up multi tick attack/defence was that it felt like it was around the time of that change that the trend moved more towards waving.

Also my main concern isn't about what happens once a player has got into an alliance - the key thing here is allowing players to stay interested and survive long enough to actually join an alliance.
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Unread 8 May 2009, 00:14   #29
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Re: Some further observations

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Originally Posted by [DW]Entropy View Post
But revisiting old methods and functions seems like taking a step back.
I say some features of the old planetarion are useful today, but trying to change the way people play the game is hard.

There are many different reasons why PA seems harder to play.

1) Alliance size (yep this one again)

Alliance have problems in 2 ways
Attack - in the alliances i have been in, most nights we have 2 target galaxies for an attack, if you have 100 player alliance trying to battle it out over a galaxy you end up with 3-4 waves per gal (remember a number of people use 2 fleets to attack).
Now most BC's look for the same thing:- fat roids, thin value. This leads to eventualy alliance piggying.

Defence - With more players in an alliance you get a bigger chance of getting def (unless getting P targeted of course).

2) I feel these days that "attacking" results in losing everything or the target fleeing and you landing. Doesnt seem to be many situations of a middle ground. Its hard to even attack people your own size with out huge carnage (unless you find a "class" hole).

I did think maybe increase armor across the board, so attacking becomes slighty easier, and might make people land even if the target has defence.


Crazy Idea #347
How about redoing the cap formula to include total number of same alliance fleets in target galaxy/planet?
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Unread 8 May 2009, 09:18   #30
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Re: Some further observations

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Originally Posted by Kal View Post
Thanks for your interesting reply. I certainly didn't mean to make out that the old way of doing things was better. I was really reflecting on the times when I was a BC. Back in thoose days we tended to hit multiple galaxies rather than wave one galaxy. The only time we did waving was during alliance wars. The only real reason I brought up multi tick attack/defence was that it felt like it was around the time of that change that the trend moved more towards waving.

Also my main concern isn't about what happens once a player has got into an alliance - the key thing here is allowing players to stay interested and survive long enough to actually join an alliance.
Nowadays with the higher alliance limits the members are spread further across the universe. We as an ally (and a few others) don't hit galaxys with alliance members in, so we find ourselves not being able to hit a lot of the universe. More often than not we end up hitting the same gals every few days and we cant really 1 wave 4-5 gals due to this as we'd be hitting the same gals every night.

Some alliances even go as far as to 3, 4 and in extreme cases 5 wave targets which i disagree with. unfortunately our alliance rules, in tandem with PA limits in effect make it impractical for us to do anything other than multi wave.
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Unread 8 May 2009, 10:38   #31
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Re: Some further observations

Your mistake is with not hitting galaxies with any alliance members in them. I can totally understand that you don't hit galaxies with a full buddypack in them, especially since you're not ever actually at war with anyone, but surely you realise that this is harming your alliance in the long run.
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Unread 8 May 2009, 10:46   #32
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Re: Some further observations

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Your mistake is with not hitting galaxies with any alliance members in them. I can totally understand that you don't hit galaxies with a full buddypack in them, especially since you're not ever actually at war with anyone, but surely you realise that this is harming your alliance in the long run.
Yeah, and multiple buddy packs could solve this, as it would free up galaxies. Maybe if the games ally limits don't change we'll have to change our strategies. (granted its not just the ally limits and other factors play a part). I suppose it seems morally wrong attacking a galaxy which could effectively support one of our members. Though this isn't a moral game, its a war game. Appreciate the feedback though mz.
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Unread 8 May 2009, 10:50   #33
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Re: Some further observations

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Your mistake is with not hitting galaxies with any alliance members in them. I can totally understand that you don't hit galaxies with a full buddypack in them, especially since you're not ever actually at war with anyone, but surely you realise that this is harming your alliance in the long run.
Not attacking gals with our members in has always been one of our core rules when organising our attacks. Over the last round or so we have held discussions regarding this and will more than likely remove this rule in the future, as it does limit the number of viable targets that we as an alliance have.
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Unread 8 May 2009, 12:13   #34
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Re: Some further observations

We had the same problem with high numbers last round Juice, when they get spread right out you end up with 2-3 decent target gals you cycle through over and over.
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Unread 8 May 2009, 19:01   #35
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Re: Some further observations

Not posted for while, not even playing but I think we need to think outside the box to solve this problem. OTT waving will happen no matter what.

What if you could disrupt incoming fleets for example, like alter their landing tick, or send half their fleet home, etc

Something that the newbie has access to while not necessarily being part of an alliance.

Or what an option that your planet can be put into protection, bit like vacation for 24hrs triggered by 2 waves landing so that would lower waving a bit

Dunno im just rambling hah
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Unread 9 May 2009, 09:31   #36
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Re: Some further observations

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Originally Posted by TheShadowMan View Post
Not posted for while, not even playing but I think we need to think outside the box to solve this problem. OTT waving will happen no matter what.

What if you could disrupt incoming fleets for example, like alter their landing tick, or send half their fleet home, etc

Something that the newbie has access to while not necessarily being part of an alliance.

Or what an option that your planet can be put into protection, bit like vacation for 24hrs triggered by 2 waves landing so that would lower waving a bit

Dunno im just rambling hah
To be honest I like theese new out of the box ideas - covert ops were brought in as a way for a newbie to fight back - from my experience (I now have 900k incoming ships and no defence) a more powerfl way to fight back than the current covert ops is needed.

The other thing I think is needed to combat piggying is if capping is signficantly reduced if there are multiple fleets involved in an attack - this will encourage allianccs to look for the slightly less attractive targets as they stand more chance of not being piggyed.
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Unread 9 May 2009, 09:36   #37
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Re: Some further observations

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To be honest I like theese new out of the box ideas - covert ops were brought in as a way for a newbie to fight back - from my experience (I now have 900k incoming ships and no defence) a more powerfl way to fight back than the current covert ops is needed.

The other thing I think is needed to combat piggying is if capping is signficantly reduced if there are multiple fleets involved in an attack - this will encourage allianccs to look for the slightly less attractive targets as they stand more chance of not being piggyed.
I think an auto recall if a target goes below 200 roids is a good solution to mass waving really.
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Unread 9 May 2009, 10:46   #38
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Re: Some further observations

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I think an auto recall if a target goes below 200 roids is a good solution to mass waving really.
what if rather than that, if a target has already dropped to 0.6 of its roid count 12 ticks ago fleets auto recall.

That would mean only 2 fully capping waves could land per night
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Unread 9 May 2009, 11:21   #39
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Re: Some further observations

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what if rather than that, if a target has already dropped to 0.6 of its roid count 12 ticks ago fleets auto recall.

That would mean only 2 fully capping waves could land per night
It's coming up with arbitary rules like this that make me glad you aren't involved in game development anymore.

Seriously Kal, how is this going to improve anything? So alliance X and Y go to war, but the most they can hope for is 2 waves off any of the planets they target? Please tell me you are joking...
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Unread 9 May 2009, 11:53   #40
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Re: Some further observations

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It's coming up with arbitary rules like this that make me glad you aren't involved in game development anymore.

Seriously Kal, how is this going to improve anything? So alliance X and Y go to war, but the most they can hope for is 2 waves off any of the planets they target? Please tell me you are joking...
and this is why people don't feel like they can present ideas on the forums...

its a random idea that occured as a result of kargool's idea.

as it happens your issue with the idea could easily be solved through the ideas currently being discussed on the suggestions forum about alliance wars.

it would be quite reaosnable in my view to have restrictions in the game to protect less active players that are removed when alliances are formally at war.

But i'll reiterate I didn't say it was a good idea, it was a "howabout this" random thought.
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Unread 9 May 2009, 13:02   #41
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Re: Some further observations

That's the issue I have with many of the suggestions on PS. There's a lot of interesting ideas, but few people think through what their idea does to the game. In PA, lots of examples can be found, especially the rebounding issues: new feature is introduced (xp, cov ops, wintraides, salvage), new feature is deemed overpowered, new feature is nerfed to useless.

So Game is right (nor is his post overly aggressive). Combatting excessive bashing is commendable, but tif you cannot think through what your ideas will do to the game as a whole instead of just the small problem you're trying to solve then you should not be surprised nor offended if it gets shot down by someone who can. Game design is not a democratic process.

Here's an example of one of those bad ideas that sound pretty good if you don't think about it.

Another way to handle newbie bashing is to recall fleets once the targets drops below the attacker's bash. This sounds pretty good, it'd stop big planets attacking near their bash, because it's very well possible they lose some score or value, causing the fleet to recall. But what about teamups between a small planet and a bigger planet? If the target drops below the bash of the bigger planet (say, at eta1), the smaller planet would land alone. If there's defence present, the smaller planet would lose the fleet through no fault of his own.
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Unread 9 May 2009, 15:00   #42
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Re: Some further observations

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Game design is not a democratic process.
I'm sorry, i got caught in that sentance. When did game^ decide and not decide what was a good solution to a problem? You claim that game design is not a democratic prosess, yet you seem to have a point of view about the matter and also try to say that your view is the right view. So by that you think that you are involved in a so called democratic discussion about the issue.

I think that a suggestion like a autorecall if a planet goes below 200 roids (plus higher than 100) should be a good option. However, I'm not claiming to be an expert on the matter, and since this is a debate about suggestions, i claim the right to point out my view.
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Unread 9 May 2009, 15:37   #43
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Re: Some further observations

I fully agree that ideas need to be thought through as well as their knock on ideas to other aspects of the game. What we need is a cohesive set of ideas that when combined form a decent whole that address all the issues with the game (though this would probabaly require an end to the current piece-meal development).

I don't object to people pointing out flaws in ideas, as thats exactly what should be happening on the forums and precisly why ideas should be posted.

Say for example I was still a member of PATeam - wouldn't it have been a good idea that the bad idea was posted for comment, rather than just being implemented? I think everyone would agree it would be.

Now maybe I mininterpreted the game's post, but I got the genuine impression he thought that if I was in PATeam the idea would simply have been implemented without any thought - I'd like to think that I'm not quite that stupid...

Ideas should be freely discussed and debated - what is then needed is for someone to pick them all up and join together then ones that will work together.
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Unread 9 May 2009, 16:48   #44
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Re: Some further observations

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I'm sorry, i got caught in that sentance. When did game^ decide and not decide what was a good solution to a problem? You claim that game design is not a democratic prosess, yet you seem to have a point of view about the matter and also try to say that your view is the right view. So by that you think that you are involved in a so called democratic discussion about the issue.
Expressing views does not mean it is a democratic process at all. What mz is saying is someone needs to decide the direction this game is going (someone with knowledge and hindsight of what will result from changes) and stick to it. I suggest you look at the ship stats this round, and see what a mess listening to multiple sources with differing opinions ends up with.
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Unread 9 May 2009, 16:51   #45
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Re: Some further observations

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Say for example I was still a member of PATeam - wouldn't it have been a good idea that the bad idea was posted for comment, rather than just being implemented? I think everyone would agree it would be.
No, I'd prefer that the PA Team posted a vision of that they want to end up with, rather than changing little bits here and creating a few rules here to address the many problems that currently exist.

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Ideas should be freely discussed and debated - what is then needed is for someone to pick them all up and join together then ones that will work together.
Quite honestly we haven't had this since Spinner left the game...
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Unread 9 May 2009, 17:29   #46
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Re: Some further observations

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When did game^ decide and not decide what was a good solution to a problem?
Never. Where did I say this? Rest of post is a quote snipe, not going to bother.
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Unread 9 May 2009, 17:35   #47
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Re: Some further observations

Game, I agree with the points you;ve made in reply to myself and kargool.

However, in the absense of vision, wouldn't PATeam sugesting their own ideas to the community be useful? At least then the community have the opportunity to point out the flaws in them. Its certainly better than PATeam wasteing time coding something only to have to remove it in the beta.

What I want, like you, is for PATeam/Pete to have a vision for the game. However, in addition to that I want the community to be able to contribute ideas, for them to be discussed, etc. There is no reason why we can't have "democratic" discussions - as long as someone is there to make a final decision on whether the ideas fit with the vision for the game and the rest of the game mechanics.

From playing the game again, its remarkable how much my understanding of what its like to in a struggling galaxy/alliance has improved. I didn't set out with my threads to suggest solutions, merely to point out my experiences of the game so that some of theese issues get some attention. Sometimes during the debate in theese threads ideas come up, some of theese will be good and some bad, all I ask is that they are debated in a constructive and friendly way.
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Unread 9 May 2009, 21:25   #48
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Re: Some further observations

Do the PATeam play enough of this game to be able to have any say in the game's design and future? Feedback from the round is not the same as playing a round. having a planet in 1:1 is hardly the best experience of a round.
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Unread 10 May 2009, 08:51   #49
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Re: Some further observations

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Do the PATeam play enough of this game to be able to have any say in the game's design and future? Feedback from the round is not the same as playing a round. having a planet in 1:1 is hardly the best experience of a round.
That's something I've been thinking about. Given how enlightening playing the game has been for me since I left PATeam, should the game's designers be allowed to play?
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Unread 10 May 2009, 13:06   #50
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Re: Some further observations

...
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