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Unread 7 Aug 2006, 14:37   #1
Deepflow
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The internet and social interaction

This thread is about how relationships (not relationships) work over the internet, e.g friendships Basically I'm bored at work and on the computer, thought I would write a thread, and this is something I have been thinking about a lot recently.

I want to discuss what the main differences are between people you know online (or mostly online) and those irl, the different ways in which relationships evolve and the different kinds of communities which are created. I've read a couple of texts on internet communities but these are generally obsolete* and seem to be written for people needing an introduction to the subject rather than people who are involved in it every day. As of this line I don't know how the rest of this post is going to go but I'm going to start by statings some "facts" and then drawing zany conclusions!

One major difference is the size of the communities compared to social groups which people are involved in irl. Something like SA or slashdot is absolutely huge and bigger than any purely social group that someone would be involved in normally. There needs to be a distinction made between forums like this and ones like (for example) this one. SA is a community that spreads through it's reputation and is more or less constructed to be a good internet forum from the bottom up, with their harsh modding, many rules and taboos etc. This one has sprung up from a shared interest and has evolved naturally from there with the minimum of input from any higher power.
The reasons that internet communities become far larger than any real life equivalent are pretty obvious, but I'll state them anyway. Firstly, if it's a specialist group then it has the entire world to "recruit" from and therefore has a far larger group of people who might join to appeal to, whereas one in real life would be restricted by geography and practicality. As well as the potential to be useable to anyone with access to a computer they have the added advantage of people being able to contribute to the communities effectively while they are doing something else**. The lack of inconvenience associated with this kind of social interaction is clearly a big factor in how often people can participate.
This has another effect in that specialised communities are far more likely to be created online (also partly for reasons of anonymity, I would imagine). What this means in more practical terms however, is that as a community has a far greater potential userbase, it can generally acquire the "pick of the bunch" and if it is created for some specific purpose then it is far easier to attract a group of experts (or psuedo-experts) than it would be if it were a real life situation with all the limitations which come with that.

The lack of physical contact and basic restrictions of any communication to a purely written form (and without even the personalities of different handwriting) obviously inhibits socialising. Without body language, tone of voice etc. then you are never going to be able to get as much information across as you would normally. This problem has often been pointed out, normally by someone saying something like "sarcasm doesn't work on the internet", which isn't entirely true, but it would be difficult to deny that sarcasm works far less well at the very least. This has been combatted by all sorts of innovations (smileys, bold/italics, the use of different phrasing to that which you would normally use to denote irony***), but in my opinion meaning is often far more difficult to convey through the use of pure text, despite innovations.

Now, to come back to my original point of how relationships are formed online, my main assertion here is that they are normally formed much slower. I would put this down to the lack of physical contact/communication more than anything else, as I can't think of an alternative that would reasonably describe how long it takes to form what I would consider a strong friendship online as opposed to one irl. I know im making up terminology here but I hope you all know what I mean.

I lied in the paragraph above, I can think of one more alternative reason for it taking time to build relationships, but I think it works in tandem with the physical aspect rather than discounting it. This is the extent to which most forums on the internet (not chatrooms/channels) are essentially fields of debate rather than places designed for social interaction. You get less "banter" if everything you say should contribute to the discussion and be worthwhile. If you listen to a conversation between two friends irl (or have one yourself, I suppose) then you normally notice that a large portion of it is utter rubbish, maybe it's funny, maybe it's not, but I can only assume that it helps to build social bonds between people. This is sorely lacking on this forum (though not on irc \o/), although I wouldn't want it any other way. I shouldn't forget to mention some exceptions to this rule (PB, BYOB) and I'm sure there are innumerable others. This forum even used to be far more amenable to talking bollocks than it is now (sup Mark). To clarify this paragraph, I think that formalising the interaction too much (though it is done in a (mostly) informal way) contributes to the slower creation of social bonds.

Now, what does this actually mean for people who use the internet enough to form social bonds with other users? Firstly I would say that in order for people to create relationships with an equivalent value (or close, or whatever) to those irl people need to be online a lot. This isn't particularly difficult to do as you can effectively participate from anywhere at any time as I mentioned earlier. Secondly, an internet community will change far slower than a normal one, this is due to the formalised nature of it as well as the elitism that generally prevails amongst many internet communities. Although an argument could be made that as people who "join" are essentially strangers to the rest and this isn't the case in real life then this is unavoidable, or at least more difficult to avoid.

That's probably enough to be getting on with for a decent discussion, but the way that social groups on the internet has fascinated me now for years with a very small amount of material to draw upon if you want to learn (anyone posting cool links to these will get much <3). I'm hoping that some of you can point out some more interesting angles on the problem and make this a decent discussion. I hereby apologise for the sweeping generalisations I have made above, I did try to avoid them, but it was pretty much impossible.

*Naturally, books about the internet become obsolete far faster than books on many other subjects, due to the speed with which it changes and the tendency I have found in them to use out of date "cyberspeak" when perfectly normal terms would have sufficed.

**I'm at work now.

*** U r rite

fake edit: tl;dr
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Unread 7 Aug 2006, 16:54   #2
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Re: The internet and social interaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
That's probably enough to be getting on with for a decent discussion,
You think.


Anyhow, I don't think that an online community necessarily would take longer to form when it forms around a specific thing such as a new online game, a new internet phenomenon, etc. Those kind of communities spring up in a matter of days and people who didn't know each other suddenly form a bond. Of course not as close of a bond as with people you've known online, and I would say you never form a bond with people online to the degree with people you have met offline. I think that there are probably a lot of interaction types online that can be roughly classified that someone familiar with online social interactivity will be familiar with: such as trolling, a certain type of humor, certain types of arguments, etc and people who are like one another will probably bond quicker, especially when it is in opposition to a negative community member such as a troll or an opposition on the other side of a bitter argument (ala Sony, racism, religion, windows/apple/linux) etc.

Finally I think there is a conflict between real life and online activity and ultimately real life will take precedence over online shit and so this probably is another way that online socializing differs from real life.
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Unread 7 Aug 2006, 17:22   #3
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Re: The internet and social interaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Finally I think there is a conflict between real life and online activity and ultimately real life will take precedence over online shit and so this probably is another way that online socializing differs from real life.


Not in Koen's world.
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Unread 7 Aug 2006, 18:17   #4
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Re: The internet and social interaction

Deepflow has a job?
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Unread 7 Aug 2006, 23:42   #5
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Re: The internet and social interaction

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Originally Posted by s|k
people who are like one another will probably bond quicker, especially when it is in opposition to a negative community member such as a troll
It can also be very difficult for us gimmicks to get the love and respect we crave.
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Unread 8 Aug 2006, 01:30   #6
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Re: The internet and social interaction

I know this is quite off-topic, but it is something I hadn't really thought about - the difference in maturity in different communities.

The "Planetarion" community (which, as much as a lot of us would like to deny, does include us) is quite mature. I think the average age is probably around 22-25 or so.

I'd forgotten this, and had started to readily accept that as the "norm" for the internet gaming community as a whole.

I've recently started playing Warcraft 3 online (mostly custom games, but still). The chatting and general social standards of the community are SHIT at best. I mean, you'll be playing with people and the highest form of chat they have are "lo" then "from?" and you tell them where you are from. They then refuse to talk further, except to maybe insult each other with the oh-so-common insult of "NOOB!".

I found it amusing when I admitted to being a "NOOB" (ie "yes this is the first time i've played this map, i'm new, can you give me some pointers?" in a team game... "NOOOOOOB" i was given in reply). Also the fact that "NOOB!" is apparently a universal term. I played with a bunch of french guys and they all used it as a derogatory term (with the rather interesting alternative, "NAAB" which I found refreshing).

I just thought it was intriguing how I had an image of the internet (and of course I knew that there were shit people outside of #forums and GD - hell, i've ventured inside #planetarion once or twice and boy was I scared!) and it was destroyed by these - for want of a better word - MORONS.



...I suppose the fact their names were KILLAH1994, which meant they were probably born in 1994 and therefore only 12 years old, should have given me an indication to their maturity. Perhaps I should start calling them "NOOBS AT LIFE!" seeing as I'm 11 years older than them?
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Unread 8 Aug 2006, 01:43   #7
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Re: The internet and social interaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I know this is quite off-topic, but it is something I hadn't really thought about - the difference in maturity in different communities.

The "Planetarion" community (which, as much as a lot of us would like to deny, does include us) is quite mature. I think the average age is probably around 22-25 or so.

I'd forgotten this, and had started to readily accept that as the "norm" for the internet gaming community as a whole.

I've recently started playing Warcraft 3 online (mostly custom games, but still). The chatting and general social standards of the community are SHIT at best. I mean, you'll be playing with people and the highest form of chat they have are "lo" then "from?" and you tell them where you are from. They then refuse to talk further, except to maybe insult each other with the oh-so-common insult of "NOOB!".

I found it amusing when I admitted to being a "NOOB" (ie "yes this is the first time i've played this map, i'm new, can you give me some pointers?" in a team game... "NOOOOOOB" i was given in reply). Also the fact that "NOOB!" is apparently a universal term. I played with a bunch of french guys and they all used it as a derogatory term (with the rather interesting alternative, "NAAB" which I found refreshing).

I just thought it was intriguing how I had an image of the internet (and of course I knew that there were shit people outside of #forums and GD - hell, i've ventured inside #planetarion once or twice and boy was I scared!) and it was destroyed by these - for want of a better word - MORONS.



...I suppose the fact their names were KILLAH1994, which meant they were probably born in 1994 and therefore only 12 years old, should have given me an indication to their maturity. Perhaps I should start calling them "NOOBS AT LIFE!" seeing as I'm 11 years older than them?
I find myself resorting to that sort of immaturity during game play, as letting go is part of the fun. :/
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Unread 8 Aug 2006, 01:46   #8
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Re: The internet and social interaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I'd forgotten this, and had started to readily accept that as the "norm" for the internet gaming community as a whole.
Well, in pretty much any community I think you'll find enclaves of sane people. In some cases, like CS, they'll be hiding in remote corners of the internet, and never venturing out without a flashlight and a planned escape route though. God I'm glad I don't play that game.

Just stick to less mainstream games if you can't take it. Plenty of sane people there.. occasionally you'll even come acress a 12 year-old who can type, and remarkably, they're people* too!


* albeit small, stupid ones.. kinda like the Spanish.
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Unread 8 Aug 2006, 01:50   #9
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Re: The internet and social interaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
I find myself resorting to that sort of immaturity during game play, as letting go is part of the fun. :/
this is why Americans shouldn't be allowed on the internet

(especially xbox-live)
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Unread 8 Aug 2006, 04:53   #10
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Re: The internet and social interaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyfe
this is why Americans shouldn't be allowed on the internet

(especially xbox-live)
Damn shame we invented the crap eh?
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Unread 8 Aug 2006, 07:34   #11
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Re: The internet and social interaction

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hooray

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Unread 8 Aug 2006, 08:34   #12
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Re: The internet and social interaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
The "Planetarion" community (which, as much as a lot of us would like to deny, does include us) is quite mature. I think the average age is probably around 22-25 or so.
I think it's also an attitude thing. While people in their twenties are generally more mellow than teenagers (they've got more going on in their lives, less hormonal crap, etc) older people tend to get pretty angry too. I've been on a leftist mailing list for the last five years and over there the regulars (their equivalents of Yahwe / Nod / MrL / Leshy / etc) get unsubbed by the moderator (or threaten to unsub themselves) all the time for randomly getting angry, flaming, etc. And these people are in their forties and fifties, the majority working in academia or holding PhD's, etc.

Here I think we've managed to cut down on the amount of stupidity by having a generally disdainful attitude towards internet tough guys, or people being flame happy, etc. Collectively social groups manage their members behaviour through feedback - certain things are tolerated, others are not.
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Unread 8 Aug 2006, 18:07   #13
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Re: The internet and social interaction

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
I find myself resorting to that sort of immaturity during game play, as letting go is part of the fun. :/
Noob.


(I don't remember you being that way during BF2?)
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Unread 8 Aug 2006, 18:19   #14
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Re: The internet and social interaction

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Originally Posted by Cannon_Fodder
Noob.


(I don't remember you being that way during BF2?)
Too busy pwning.
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Unread 8 Aug 2006, 18:21   #15
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Cannon_Fodder spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldCannon_Fodder spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldCannon_Fodder spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldCannon_Fodder spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldCannon_Fodder spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldCannon_Fodder spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldCannon_Fodder spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldCannon_Fodder spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldCannon_Fodder spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldCannon_Fodder spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus wouldCannon_Fodder spreads love and joy to the forum in the same way Jesus would
Re: The internet and social interaction

Not when I played you
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If one person is in delusion, they're called insane.
If many people are in delusion, it's called a religion.
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