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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 12:53   #1
Cooling
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Probationary Employment Periods

You all remember a few months ago when France almost burned to the ground when the government decided to push on with it's young persons probationary period legislation, which essentially allowed an employer to sack a young employee for no reason for a period of two years after the initial hiring.


Now in New Zealand the opposition has proposed a Bill that allows an employer to sack any employee up to ninety days after they were initially hired.

We have extremely strong labour laws, it is terribly difficult to sack an employee, the process is rather long and involved and employers often do not get it right.

One recent case involved a lad employed as a painter, who decided to spraypaint swastikas on the windows of a house he was employed to paint. It turned out that the house was owned by a Jewish couple. His employer told him to **** off and fired him on the spot after he learned of the situation (there'd been problems with this lad before). The court, after hearing the case decided this was an unjustified dismissal, the employer had not followed the proper process and was fined 700 quid.


Some have argued that this new 90 day Probationary Period bill will help, particularly in the case of small employers who cannot afford to obtain legal advice every time they wish to fire a problem employee.

They also say these periods will provide more oppurtunities for employees. Employers will be more willing to 'take a chance' on them during the 90 day trial period (these are illegal under the current legislation).


Opponents say this is an unjustified dimunition of workers rights. We have one of the lowest unemployment rates in the developed world, and some of the most 'progressive' labour laws around.

They argue that employers should simply put more effort into their interview processes. That the Bill will create problems for the 'casual' workforce, such as fruit pickers and temps, who move from one employer to another, each time having to start again with another 90 day period without rights. They also argue that the Bill disadvantages vulnerable or younger workers, who may be unfairly dismissed by a capricious employer.


Which arguments sound stronger? Have any of you had experience with this sort of thing, or is it just an everyday fact of life where you live?

Edit: Afaik in Britain the norm is 12 months.
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Last edited by Cooling; 12 Jul 2006 at 12:59.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 12:57   #2
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Re: Probationary Employment Periods

??? Sure that´s normal here.

I´m glad I have time to find out if an employee is an alcoholic or a druggy or does not show up on time anytime, so I can sack him without consequence.
You can even renegotiate all terms after the period, and this goes for the employee too. If you outperform your job and people are happy with you, you can threaten with ´bon voyage´ after three months as well to get more money out of it.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 13:08   #3
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Re: Probationary Employment Periods

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Originally Posted by Cooling
Which arguments sound stronger? Have any of you had experience with this sort of thing, or is it just an everyday fact of life where you live?
In my limited experience probationary periods tend to be abused by employers. In a couple of places I've worked where there's been a probation period it's been extended on very flimsy grounds - e.g. two instances of sickness in six months, three instances of lateness, that sort of thing. Probation then get's extended unnecessarily and someone is living basically on a knife edge.

I don't like the idea that someone can be fired for no reason without warning (unless it is a very specific temporary contract). Most people are living in a situation where they have ongoing living commitments (e.g. rents, mortgages, utility bills) and you need some stability to be able to live. I'm sure many of us have lived in a situation where a rent check has been due and we could be fired at a moments notice. Even ignoring the stress this can cause it makes financial planning very difficult.

I don't have a problem with people being fired for being utterly shit (gross misconduct) - and in the case you give going purely by what you say (obviously I don't know the full details) the guy sounds like he would have been arrested in most places, let alone sacked. But then if tribunals are making very bad decisions (I am not saying they are ofc) the answer doesn't seem to give people impunity to sack whoever they want in a given period. Additionally, if someone has lied on their CV, or their references don't come through then they've probably made their employment contract null and void and thus don't need to be "fired" as such.

If there is a 90 day rule I can also see people being "fired" after 89 days and then rehired the next day - unless there is specific legislation against this. British companies have done this in the past (albeit after two years, where different legal protections used to kick in for British workers).
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Originally Posted by xtrasyn
I´m glad I have time to find out if an employee is an alcoholic or a druggy or does not show up on time anytime, so I can sack him without consequence.
I'm pretty sure a decent recruitment process or reference check should filter those people out (although I'm not sure why you wouldn't want druggies working for you ).
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 13:20   #4
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Re: Probationary Employment Periods

Oh well there´s only somuch you can tell in those brief moments of the selection period... And ofcourse druggies are more creative and all but they do tend to show up late.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 16:07   #5
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Exclamation Re: Probationary Employment Periods

Would workers have to give 90 days' notice before leaving?


I've almost always been employed 'at will', meaning that I work without a specific contract and can be fired pretty much for any reason*. This is standard in my industry (computer programming) and common throughout the US (the notable exception being members of labor unions and, apparently, civil service**). Personally, I wouldn't want to work for an employer who didn't want me. Life's too short to put up with that and there's no shortage of employers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Most people are living in a situation where they have ongoing living commitments (e.g. rents, mortgages, utility bills) and you need some stability to be able to live.
Don't most people have some savings or some credit? (I realize you probably don't, but you did say most people. )

Stability is something of an illusion anyways.




*Employers have to show 'good cause' but this appears to be mostly a formality. There are also a few state and federal laws that apply: for example, if I were fired because I was black then I could probably bring a wrongful termination suit against my employer; although since I'm not black damned if I know who'd win.

**I worked in a civil service job briefly and it was all but impossible for anyone to get fired. Most of the lifers there had stopped caring years ago and just went through the motions. It was like Zombieville! I knew I had to get out or risk becoming one of them!!
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 16:28   #6
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Re: Probationary Employment Periods

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
Would workers have to give 90 days' notice before leaving?
Well, you'd certainly have to give more than a zero day notice although this isn't usually very enforceable. I believe my employers ask for a weeks notice in the first six months (probation period).

But such comparisons aren't usually meaningful - the relationship is not symmetrical - an employer might have ten thousand workers, but the worker will usually only have one job. If they lose this job, then (on average) the worker will be proportionately worse off than the employer. There may be some exceptions (the independently wealthy employee, very small businesses, times of extreme labour shortages, people working on special proejcts etc) but I doubt any of those situations are "the norm".
Quote:
Don't most people have some savings or some credit? (I realize you probably don't, but you did say most people. )
I suspect a good proportion of people affected by this sort of thing probably don't - I doubt many CEO's are affected by this, but probably quite a few low level retail or clerical jobs.

According to figures 25% of people in the UK are having problems repaying existing debts. I'd bet that 25% would be dramatically over represented in jobs likely to be affected by this. And even if you had access to credit (although short-term emergency credit is usually expensive - credit cards, overdrafts, etc) or savings, it's far from ideal to be spending these things on household bills (especially since at least one bill in the average household will be some form of credit bill anyway).
Quote:
Stability is something of an illusion anyways.
Yeah, but not being able to pay the rent at the end of the month is something slightly more concrete. More generally, while our lives may be ever changing it's nice to be in a situation which is reasonably predictable. Maybe you will get fired tomorrow and it won't bother you because you've got skills to get another job instantly, or savings to rely on, or another income to rely on, or you're simply very zen. But unsurprisingly this sort of thing get's some people down and leads to stress, depression, etc.

Maybe those things are a price worth paying to ensure we have a fleixlbe labour market, or that we can bail out HR departments which can't manage recruitment properly. Who knows.
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Unread 12 Jul 2006, 20:33   #7
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Re: Probationary Employment Periods

Probation periods aren't exactly evil provided they are kept brief.

1) employers will not sack someone on a whim to then go through the whole process of re-advertising, re-interviewing and re-training
2) if you are sacked within a probation period for discriminatory reasons (gender, religion, colour, sexual persuasion and very soon to be age) then you are still protected in law.

They are just a facility to prevent the balance going too far in the interests of the employee. Balance you see! that is what justice is all about!
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Unread 13 Jul 2006, 22:05   #8
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Re: Probationary Employment Periods

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling
They argue that employers should simply put more effort into their interview processes.
Interviewer: Do you have any prejudices which might affect your work.

Interviewee: I favor Australian beer.

Interviewer: I see. Do you have any negative stereotypes of any particular groups of people.

Interviewee: No, only positive ones.

Interviewer: Could you give me an example?

Interviewee: I am positive that all Jews a godless f***s.

Interviewer: I see. Do you think that this would cause you any particular problems as a house painter?

Interviewee: No. Swastikas are very easy to paint. I heard Hitler was a painter.

Interviewer: I see. But you wouldn't actually paint them on the house would you?

Interviewee: What kind of idiot do you think I am? I would paint them on the windows so that they would be able to see them from inside AND outside of the house.

Interviewer: I see. Thank you for your time.

Interviewee: No problem, Mr. Rosenberg.

Yes, I am sure the interview process would solve most situations.
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Unread 13 Jul 2006, 22:51   #9
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Re: Probationary Employment Periods

Just make it possible to fire people for gross misconduct, make that offence one that can be appealed to a tribunal (which the State finances all costs for) and that should be sorted without having to diverge too much from your present employment laws.
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