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Unread 3 Apr 2006, 22:37   #1
Kurashima
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So , Moussaoui is eligible to face the death penalty

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4874178.stm

Ive been following this from afar, and to be totally honest, theres absoloutely no way this guy had any chance from the outset. Theres two clear factors that to me just set the outcome in stone before he even entered a court room.

1. Hes clearly not mentally all there. His fanaticism is so great that he would admit to anything which he felt would increase his chances of martyrdom. His defence team could see this, anyone watching the case could see it, but the only people who wanted to see him on the stand were the prosecution. Something like that would lead to a Psych eval anywhere in the world, but due to the nature of the offence, this guy could have been stuffing food up his nose and dribbling out the corner of his mouth and still been allowed on the stand and the jury instructed to take him seriously.

2. There isnt a single american to the best of my knowledge hasnt heard of 9/11. There is an overwhelming majority within the US who know of it, and were in some way affected by it. Fair Trial? Not a hope in hell. Heres a cynical piece of twisting it. When working for a certain large offshore bank, I was encouraged that, when dealing with a difficult US customer who refused to provide the documentation we required, we were to use the phrase "The security procedures have changed since September 11". Almost immediately the tone of the customer would change and we got what we wanted. 100% of the time. It never failed me. So mention it to someone in a courtroom and say this guy was connected?


Whats the opinion on this from the transatlantic lawyers on here (DDA and Yahwe). Would this guy have had any chance of a fair trial outside of the US? Does anyone feel he DOES have a chance of a fair trial within the US?
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Unread 3 Apr 2006, 23:04   #2
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Re: So , Moussaoui is eligible to face the death penalty

Do you have any evidence to support that claim that "most Americans having heard of 9/11" would prevent him from getting a fair trial? How is this any different than any other high-profile case, such as OJ Simpson, Michael Jackson etc?

As to your first point, I'm not sure why any of it is relevant. The prosecutors are, as far as I'm aware, trying to show that his actions led to deaths on 9/11. This doesnt really have anything to do with his fanaticism as such ('mentall illness' is an odd term here - if he is mentally ill, then so are most Christian fundamentalists).
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 00:07   #3
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Re: So , Moussaoui is eligible to face the death penalty

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
Do you have any evidence to support that claim that "most Americans having heard of 9/11" would prevent him from getting a fair trial? How is this any different than any other high-profile case, such as OJ Simpson, Michael Jackson etc?

As to your first point, I'm not sure why any of it is relevant. The prosecutors are, as far as I'm aware, trying to show that his actions led to deaths on 9/11. This doesnt really have anything to do with his fanaticism as such ('mentall illness' is an odd term here - if he is mentally ill, then so are most Christian fundamentalists).
Point 1 . "Nod plays Devils Advocate". Acting naive to back up your point makes you look far less intelligent than youre always hinting you are. One was Hollywood movie in the making, one was genocide. Genocide gets a little more widely noticed in your homeland and people tried for Genocide rarely, if ever, get off. Go check your history to see how many people since WW1 have been tried for genocide and how many have been found innocent.

Point 2. Comparing OJ Simpson killing his wife and her lover (allegedly) and 3000+ people dying in carefully organised terrorist attacks is absoloute shite. I have no idea why your idea of debate Nod is always to take the exact opposite point, whether you believe in it or not, and ignore anything widely accepted until someone provides 300 links on the forum. The world does actually exist outside of your flat Nod, and the opinions of the average man and woman seem to differ very greatly from your personal views (if those ARE actually your views).

One was edge of the seat courtroom drama which affected, directly, a very small number of individuals.

One was an attack on a sovereign nation by a terrorist force which killed significant numbers of innocent people whos only crime was to be doing their jobs (whether it be in the office or on the ground).
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 00:38   #4
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Re: So , Moussaoui is eligible to face the death penalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Point 1 . "Nod plays Devils Advocate". Acting naive to back up your point makes you look far less intelligent than youre always hinting you are. One was Hollywood movie in the making, one was genocide. Genocide gets a little more widely noticed in your homeland and people tried for Genocide rarely, if ever, get off. Go check your history to see how many people since WW1 have been tried for genocide and how many have been found innocent.

Point 2. Comparing OJ Simpson killing his wife and her lover (allegedly) and 3000+ people dying in carefully organised terrorist attacks is absoloute shite. I have no idea why your idea of debate Nod is always to take the exact opposite point, whether you believe in it or not, and ignore anything widely accepted until someone provides 300 links on the forum. The world does actually exist outside of your flat Nod, and the opinions of the average man and woman seem to differ very greatly from your personal views (if those ARE actually your views).

One was edge of the seat courtroom drama which affected, directly, a very small number of individuals.

One was an attack on a sovereign nation by a terrorist force which killed significant numbers of innocent people whos only crime was to be doing their jobs (whether it be in the office or on the ground).
this is the worst counterargument i can think of
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 00:49   #5
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Re: So , Moussaoui is eligible to face the death penalty

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Originally Posted by Phang
this is the worst counterargument i can think of
This is a troll. This adds a grand total of **** all to the debate. Piss Off.
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 02:19   #6
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Re: So , Moussaoui is eligible to face the death penalty

Well he seems to hope and wish that they do execute him so he can attain martyordom, and hence admitted to things he'd previously denied and contradicted his own defence team.
I doubt he'll get a fair trial, and even if he did he would more than likely sabotage his own defence in order to be killed.
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 02:29   #7
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Re: So , Moussaoui is eligible to face the death penalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
This is a troll. This adds a grand total of **** all to the debate. Piss Off.
no, it's not a troll. a troll is an argument solely for the purposes of inflaming or offending a poster or group of posters.

this, however, was an expression of frank disbelief that anyone can be so self-righteous while paying so little attention to the argument in hand.


oh and for ****s sake stop with the ad hominem, it makes you look like an incalculably enormous twat.
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 08:12   #8
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Re: So , Moussaoui is eligible to face the death penalty

Those bloody asylum seekers are at it again :|
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 11:27   #9
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Re: So , Moussaoui is eligible to face the death penalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
This is a troll. This adds a grand total of **** all to the debate. Piss Off.
Kura, stop your insane belief that anyone who disagrees with you is a troll.
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 11:59   #10
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Re: So , Moussaoui is eligible to face the death penalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Point 1 . "Nod plays Devils Advocate". Acting naive to back up your point makes you look far less intelligent than youre always hinting you are. One was Hollywood movie in the making, one was genocide. Genocide gets a little more widely noticed in your homeland and people tried for Genocide rarely, if ever, get off. Go check your history to see how many people since WW1 have been tried for genocide and how many have been found innocent.
Aren't they making a film about 9/11?

I don't really see your point. The reason he appears not to have a chance is that he did it. We don't need to convene an international tribunal every time we claim Comrade Joe bumped off a ruskies. This isn't much different to the nuremberg trials. Everyone had heard of the nazis and what they'd done but that doesn't mean it was impossible to receive a fair trial. Just because the evidence is publically available and overwhelming doesn't mean international law will be suspended so the prosecution and anyone in the courtroom can hurl faeces at the defendant.
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 12:05   #11
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Re: So , Moussaoui is eligible to face the death penalty

Are you sneakily implying that we replace justice with the hurling of faeces Jonny? I've heard of natural justice. But I've never heard it said that we should "do as the monkeys do".
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 12:10   #12
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Re: So , Moussaoui is eligible to face the death penalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling
Are you sneakily implying that we replace justice with the hurling of faeces Jonny? I've heard of natural justice. But I've never heard it said that we should "do as the monkeys do".
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 12:12   #13
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Re: So , Moussaoui is eligible to face the death penalty

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurashima
Go check your history to see how many people since WW1 have been tried for genocide and how many have been found innocent.
Well, depends what you mean by genocide. Not everyone at Nuremberg was found guilty, for instance.
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 12:29   #14
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Re: So , Moussaoui is eligible to face the death penalty

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Originally Posted by IncubusGod
Well he seems to hope and wish that they do execute him so he can attain martyordom, and hence admitted to things he'd previously denied and contradicted his own defence team.
I doubt he'll get a fair trial, and even if he did he would more than likely sabotage his own defence in order to be killed.
that wouldn't make him a martyr though. the actions would be considered as a suicide and isn't just killing yourself for the sake of it against Gods law or something?
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Unread 4 Apr 2006, 12:42   #15
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Re: So , Moussaoui is eligible to face the death penalty

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Originally Posted by All Systems Go
that wouldn't make him a martyr though. the actions would be considered as a suicide and isn't just killing yourself for the sake of it against Gods law or something?
I imagine you and he might disagree doctrinally
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