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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 00:56   #1
Yahwe
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Legal Falsities

I was supervising my tab-lets this weekend and they were new to the Unfair Contract Terms Act (UCTA) and part of my supervision was spent (wasted) explaining to them the joy of understanding UCTA.

For non-lawyers the really fun thing about UCTA is that it strikes down exclusion clauses: those signs we all see everywhere saying such idiot things as "the management does not accept liability for injury" etc. etc.

So my point is two-fold.
1) List untruthful legal statements that you see daily
2) Let's try to explain why companies waste money on these stupid signs.

These silly quasi legal sounding nonsenses are always fun.

To start you off my favourites are:

- "the management is not liable for any loss or damage caused to your property"
- "tresspassers will be prosecuted"
and
- that stupid clause that all pateam members are forced to sign

now what I can't explain is (2). why do companies and organisations bother to make these statements/pay for these signs?
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 00:59   #2
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Re: Legal Falsities

The first one is because for the most part, the human being is now a relatively docile creature in the western world, and as such, will not dig too deeply into the facts behind said notice.

The second one is because people living in cities have absoloutely no knowledge of the trespass laws.

The third one i dont know. I didnt sign it
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 01:00   #3
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Re: Legal Falsities

does this mean that trespassers won't be prosecuted?

well, blow me down, time to get my tresspassing coat on again and go into places I really shouldn't be!
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 01:06   #4
Yahwe
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Re: Legal Falsities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
does this mean that trespassers won't be prosecuted?

well, blow me down, time to get my tresspassing coat on again and go into places I really shouldn't be!
tresspassers can't be prosecuted. there is no crime to prosecute them with (unless it's tresspassing on a railway line which is a specific offence)

kura: I worried this. I mean you say 'docile' but is it more that most people just don't know about what the law says (which must be the law's fault not theirs) and therefore companies can use these signs to 'bully'?
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 01:17   #5
Yahwe
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Re: Legal Falsities

no no nantoz tresspassing isn't 'allowed' but it is a civil offence and not a criminal one (ie. not illegal in the way people consider illegal) so it can't be prosecuted

all you can do is sue for damages. but the damages are always tiny unless you damage the place you tresspass in

but if you damage it then you can be prosecuted for criminal damage.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 01:19   #6
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Re: Legal Falsities

No, it means that trespassing is a civil rather than a criminal wrong.

And if you "roam" (or indeed "camp") on my private property you can fully expect me to chase you away with a big stick.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 01:19   #7
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Re: Legal Falsities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
kura: I worried this. I mean you say 'docile' but is it more that most people just don't know about what the law says (which must be the law's fault not theirs) and therefore companies can use these signs to 'bully'?
Its just something I would say if a side effect of living in Western Europe. For the most part, only children, students and activists of a sort are used to challenging anything which sounds like its authority. Education standards are such that they convince us the law is there for our protection, and anything which sounds legal IS legal.

You will find that your students come across very few of these statements which they believe to be unlawful, and youll have to provide more evidence yourself.

You should try teaching those under the age of 21. Once beyond there, its very difficult to persuade them to change opinions they have formed on right and wrong, lawful and unlawful, good and evil, etc etc.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 01:25   #8
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Re: Legal Falsities

my tablets were quite happy engaging with the idea

but what you say is true isn't it. "anything which sounds legal IS legal"

I suppose most lawyers like it that way, because it means they'll always be needed, but it does annoy me to the bone.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 01:25   #9
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Re: Legal Falsities

Incidentally, I'd like to see a law against businesses putting up stupid exclusion notices. As far as I'm concerned they're attempting to cheat people who might have demanded a refund or what not but see the sign and think "oh, they must know what they're talking about - they wouldn't bother putting up that sign if it didn't mean I'm not able to demand anything, so I won't bother". And people who put up signs saying "trespassers will be prosecuted" should have their houses burnt down.
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He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 01:27   #10
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Re: Legal Falsities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
Can you do that legally, though?
I thought taking civilian action or attemping a "citizen's arrest" was illegal in situations such as these.
People can use reasonable force to evict other people trespassing on their land.
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Quote:
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He was crowned in York Cathedral as 'Expert in the West' by Pope Urban III in 1186.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 01:30   #11
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Re: Legal Falsities

they always put in the phrase "this does not affect your statutory rights" afterwards.

that get's the companies off the hook but to most normal people even the words 'statutory rights' are confusing and bizzare
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 01:41   #12
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Re: Legal Falsities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
Oh. I love vague concepts. "reasonable"...
In Texas that means you can shoot a suspected trespasser, what does it mean in England?
I assume your legal system uses the concept of precedence?
reasonable means reasonable

so if you want to say it another way "don't act unreasonably"

(but proteus wasn't clear enough in his statement. you can't evict people for tresspassing in law, but you can evict people who are in breach of their licence)
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 01:50   #13
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Re: Legal Falsities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
Fascinating. So there's never ever been a ruling concerning what's reasonable force.
How nice that you've reached such a consensus. I'm truly impressed.
well 'reasonable' isn't a statutory word.

there are lots of rulings on what is and isn't reasonable. but the point is that the judges actively try to leave the question of 'what is unreasonable behavior' alone.

In the hope that everyone will understand it.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 01:56   #14
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Re: Legal Falsities

Essentially the question of what is reasonable is left up to the jury, who are assumed to constitute the reasonable person. This is rubbish, of course, but that's the way it works.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 01:58   #15
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Re: Legal Falsities

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Essentially the question of what is reasonable is left up to the jury, who are assumed to constitute the reasonable person. This is rubbish, of course, but that's the way it works.
well. not in the cases we've been discussing because there is no jury.

but yes in a criminal trial where the issue of self defence is raised.

(though I have more faith in juries than you seem to. still I have appeared in front of more)
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 02:11   #16
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Re: Legal Falsities

A sign that never fails to amuse me is "All care, no responsibility".

What does this mean? We will take all care but will not be responsible for our failing to take care?

You might say that the proprietor both undertakes to be liable for negligence at the same time as he purports to exempt himself from negligence.

Another reading might be, that all reasonable care will be takenand, assuming that such care is taken, the proprietor will not be responsible for any ensuing (extraordinary) loss.

Of course this interpretation seems to strain the natural and ordinary meaning somewhat.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 02:12   #17
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Re: Legal Falsities

the trick is to remember that signs are seldom mentioned in courts
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 02:29   #18
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Re: Legal Falsities

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
tresspassers can't be prosecuted. there is no crime to prosecute them with (unless it's tresspassing on a railway line which is a specific offence)

kura: I worried this. I mean you say 'docile' but is it more that most people just don't know about what the law says (which must be the law's fault not theirs) and therefore companies can use these signs to 'bully'?
[edit]
Please note, in an incident of shocking bad form, I only read the first few posts so this may have been answered already.
[/edit]

So far as this layman is aware, it goes something like this:
While trespassers can't be prosecuted for just being on your property, they can be taken to task for any damage they may cause (however I think that's not a criminal thing, so no high court trails etc). If someone just strolls in and out of your garden, there is little you can do about it.
To add to the slightly surreal situation, you still have a duty of care to people on your property (invited or otherwise), and so constructing pitfalls in the garden in fact opens you up to a court case. I'm not sure whether a "Caution: Pitfalls!" sign would absolve you from liability or not.

The main thing I'm unsure about is to what extent courts in this mordern age will stick to the letter of these fairly archaic laws. To me it seems ludicrous that you can be sued if a trespasser trips over a rake that was hidden in your lawn and breaks his leg.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 02:33   #19
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Re: Legal Falsities

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
The main thing I'm unsure about is to what extent courts in this mordern age will stick to the letter of these fairly archaic laws. To me it seems ludicrous that you can be sued if a trespasser trips over a rake that was hidden in your lawn and breaks his leg.
you say it's archaic

but the protection given to tresspassers was created by parliament not the common law.

moreover it was given in the 1984 Occupiers Liability Act

So it was created by Thatcher.

don't you worry meggles? that you might just be to the right of Thatcher? I mean, doesn't that concern you?
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 02:43   #20
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Re: Legal Falsities

I was refering to trespass as archaic*.
As for the OLA, it's still ridiculous whenever it was passed. It seems completely unnecessary. Clearly if you kill or beat the shit out of a trespasser then you're looking at a criminal case anyway. Beyond that, common sense would suggest that any damage a trespasser comes to in the course of their trespass is their own fault.

Anyway, we digress from my origial question, which was to what extent do the courts tend to go by the book on this, taking my theoretical "hidden rake" as an example.



*So far as I'm concerned, the Americans have it right on this one. Private land should be just that, should the owner want it to be. I'm not saying you should be able to shoot trespassers, I'm just saying they shouldn't be able to go crying to the local solicitor if they bang their knee on your gatepost.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 02:53   #21
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Re: Legal Falsities

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
I was refering to trespass as archaic*.
As for the OLA, it's still ridiculous whenever it was passed. It seems completely unnecessary. Clearly if you kill or beat the shit out of a trespasser then you're looking at a criminal case anyway. Beyond that, common sense would suggest that any damage a trespasser comes to in the course of their trespass is their own fault.

Anyway, we digress from my origial question, which was to what extent do the courts tend to go by the book on this, taking my theoretical "hidden rake" as an example..
courts are bound to abey the will of parliament.

tresspass is an old tort. but giving tresspassers legal remedy is as new as the 1984 act.

your hidden rake example is therefore irrelevant. in 1984 parliament said that hidden rakes ought to be compensated against. that is parliament's will.

you might think it silly. but that is democracy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
*So far as I'm concerned, the Americans have it right on this one. Private land should be just that, should the owner want it to be. I'm not saying you should be able to shoot trespassers, I'm just saying they shouldn't be able to go crying to the local solicitor if they bang their knee on your gatepost.
well the american system (while 'simple') does result in more deaths.

because it is too absolute

IF a tresspasser does "bang their knee on your gatepost" then yes they can sue you.

and they will win.

HOWEVER.

All they will win is about £2. And they will have to pay their own legal costs (about £35+£solicitors+£advocacy = ABOUT £300)

so while you can be sued. there are other practical restraints
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 02:56   #22
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Re: Legal Falsities

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
you might think it silly. but that is democracy.
I agree with this, as it is the nature of the system.
However, I'm intrigued to see you using this argument, after slating it so heavily in the smoking ban thread
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 02:58   #23
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Re: Legal Falsities

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
I agree with this, as it is the nature of the system. However, I'm intrigued to see you using this argument, after slating it so heavily in the smoking ban thread
democracy and freedom are at odds.

I do see a distinction between:

'the majority denying a freedom of the minority"

and

"the majority granting new freedoms to a minority"

you do see the difference between giving and taking away?
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 03:18   #24
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Re: Legal Falsities

Yes there is a clear distinction.
However, when I pointed out that majority rule is the basis of democracy (ie. "that's democracy for you, what can you do etc"), your reaction seemed quite hostile.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 03:23   #25
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Re: Legal Falsities

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
Yes there is a clear distinction.
However, when I pointed out that majority rule is the basis of democracy (ie. "that's democracy for you, what can you do etc"), your reaction seemed quite hostile.
I can not account for your perceptions.
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 10:12   #26
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Re: Legal Falsities

well I suppose the reason that companies make these signs is because the vast majority of people don't know their legal position, and quite possibly the companies don't either, so they think that they can relieve themselves of any responsibility by putting a sign there.
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 11:19   #27
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Re: Legal Falsities

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
now what I can't explain is (2). why do companies and organisations bother to make these statements/pay for these signs?
My guess is (I didnt read the whole thread, so maybe someone else has already said this) that not everyone is a legal expert. If people believe they are not allowed to tresspass, most of them wont do it and if it isn't illegal to put those wrong signs anywhere, I don'T see the problem with it.
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 11:51   #28
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Re: Legal Falsities

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
- "the management is not liable for any loss or damage caused to your property"
I would have thought that the most obvious reason that these posters are up is so that the vast majority of people who fleetingly think about sueing the corporation (or whatever) for whatever reason dont actually do so. This has obvious and enormous economic benefits - if those signs stop even just one law suit, then it is likely that all the money for placards stickers, posters and so on would easily be less than the cost of a lawyer or three for a week or two.

There is large economic benefit and thus incentive to discourage the "lunatic fringe", for want of a better term, from sueing you.

Quote:
- "tresspassers will be prosecuted"
I just figured that this type of message is more for saying in the strongest terms that "Visitors are unwelcome" without being profrane whilst still conveying a strong undesireability for your presence. Plus it can also serve as a warning for restricted areas (military facilities, mine sites or other dangerous areas) in order to discourage visitation.

The last one beats me :\
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