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Unread 4 Jun 2007, 15:52   #101
Mzyxptlk
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Quote:
Originally Posted by EULA 18.2.(f)
Support Accounts are accounts which are dedicated to undertaking specific and repeated actions which result in an unfair benefit for a planet/organisation, where an organisation is defined as an alliance or galaxy.
As it stands, the support planet rule alone is grounds to close everyone who
* has defended more than once
* has donated to the galaxy fund more than once
* has donated parts of the galaxy fund more than once
* has exiled more than one person at their request
* has escorted more than once
* cov opped at someone's request more than once
* was a scanner
* relayed incoming status to an alliance
* ...and the list goes on

Which comes down to every planet in a top10 alliance who didn't xp whore. There is of course mention of the necessity for the action to be 'unfair', but unfairness is never actually defined, so presumably not an important element of the EULA.

Note, I'm not saying this is the way it should be, but if you stick strictly to the EULA, without concern for common sense, all of these activites are to be viewed as illegal, and should thus be punished as per 18.7.
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Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 4 Jun 2007 at 15:57.
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Unread 4 Jun 2007, 18:11   #102
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Obviously you're all missing the big point here, and that's that I'm just far smarter than you ladies and u all feel shit that you didnt think of it yourself

grats greeny.. i want my 5 euro's !

Last edited by mockingbird; 4 Jun 2007 at 18:21.
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Unread 4 Jun 2007, 18:19   #103
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Regardless of the "legal technicalities" I hope that this "loophole" will be "fixed" before the next round.

In the early rounds of PA, planets were able to donate resources directly to each other within a galaxy until someone (or more than one) abused the feature in a manner similar to this. That's why that feature was removed.

When the galaxy fund was introduced a restriction was included to prevent donations to the larger planets in the galaxy so that they couldn't be "donated to the top". Deliberately looking for (and finding) a way around the spirit of this restriction doesn't seem to be a specific breach of this EULA (although I seem to remember a clause in earlier versions which would have covered this).

Anyway, to reduce this to its essentials ..... Fix it please.
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Unread 4 Jun 2007, 18:27   #104
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Quote:
Originally Posted by mockingbird
Obviously you're all missing the big point here, and that's that I'm just far smarter than you ladies and u all feel shit that you didnt think of it yourself
I've mentioned this before but this has been done YEARS ago. And also more recently by various other people. This was neither intelligent or original. It was however funny, so be content that you at least get recognition from the wider community as some type of clown or something.
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Unread 4 Jun 2007, 18:40   #105
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

I might be a clown, but if you thought a minute over every post you made, you'd have putten almost 12 full days of ur live into posting here.

If I'd beat you in the "discussion" you try to get off the ground here, you'd be much like Kileman:
Wasting to many days of your life just to lose from someone smarter putting far less time into it

So by this, i grant you your victory

Last edited by mockingbird; 4 Jun 2007 at 18:46.
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Unread 4 Jun 2007, 19:00   #106
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. In case you missed it I was the guy in r16 who won while putting in far less time than everyone else. I don't often like to brag because it's fairly gay but when I see some pointless little faggot like you thinking you were original or at all intelligent in doing something that resulted in a fairly cool guy actually quitting the game you can, all offence intended, go **** yourself. I did the whole winning without putting in the most effort before you. Someone else did it before me. At least I didn't drivel all over everyone else while they were attempting to help the game and talk about how original and smart I was. Pretty much everyone bar you from that group who has posted on here has at least managed to show some dignity. Maybe you should go ask them for a bit of advice?
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Unread 4 Jun 2007, 19:04   #107
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

that one must have costed way more then 1 minute

I'm glad the anger isnt showing off from your complete overuse of bad grammar and typefaults though
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Unread 4 Jun 2007, 19:08   #108
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

The whole "ur wasting ur time talking to me on the internet cos i is cool" gimmick was old before it even began man. Again, dignity, please.
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Unread 4 Jun 2007, 19:10   #109
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

I'm sorry I'm to busy with "starring" myself to be dignifull, as you kindly suggested.

Btw: nice edit, another 5 minutes down the drain. It might be old, but you are getting to

Owh, i gotta go eat with greeny.. so cya

And don't feel as if you lost anything: I already told you you won the discussion, and you didnt have any dignity left to lose in the first place i guess
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Unread 4 Jun 2007, 19:13   #110
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

dont worry jgb, hes smart so he prolly figured that out already
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Unread 4 Jun 2007, 19:44   #111
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Fighting over pa, what has the world come to
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Unread 5 Jun 2007, 00:00   #112
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

What disturbs me the most is that B|ntara got closed for sending a stupid in game mail - impact on the game = 0

Greenhills gal makes every single person in the universe drop down a rank (pushing planets out of the top 10, top 50, top 100) and completly undermined a 'value round' and nothing happens.

Oh the irony.

And I take offence to Greenhills (and gal) being called 'smarter than me', as clearly donating someone to #1 isnt exactly brain surgery - nor does it require much effort and organisation.

If my gal really wanted to, Rob and I could have donated our entire stockpiles to Idler to make him #1. JBG's gal could have done the same and so could Jer's or Game's gals. The reason none of us did, is that 1) It would screw over all of our alliance mates (yes - you guys screwed over Fenix as well) and 2) it is completely lame and just undermines the game for everyone else.
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Unread 5 Jun 2007, 00:27   #113
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kileman
The reason none of us did, is that 1) It would screw over all of our alliance mates (yes - you guys screwed over Fenix as well) and 2) it is completely lame and just undermines the game for everyone else.
No, none of us did because Ascendancy doesn't do the same stunt twice. It would be boring to do it all the same all over and over again.
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Unread 5 Jun 2007, 00:35   #114
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

I thought a limit on how much you could donate to a single planet was put in place some rounds ago. Seems like it wasn't, so now it's time to implement it.
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Unread 5 Jun 2007, 01:35   #115
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kileman
What disturbs me the most is that B|ntara got closed for sending a stupid in game mail - impact on the game = 0
I think how hilariously open to question this whole thing is can be seen in this post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandvold
Angels had nothing to do about it. They didn't even know about it So not to much for conratulating them for. Except Assasin who was kind enough to point out to the trigger-happy Fiery that nothing illegal was beeing done
I'd bother linking to keizari's thread but it's on the same forum just a bit down from this one.
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Unread 5 Jun 2007, 01:45   #116
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Didn't you win a harder round anyway Kile?

<3
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Unread 5 Jun 2007, 06:56   #117
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cooling
Didn't you win a harder round anyway Kile?

<3
Lo Cooling and yes I did.... The only difference between this one and that one, is the guy that tried to take a donation to get past me got closed, whereas in this case they won the round - heh.
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Unread 5 Jun 2007, 08:29   #118
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills



Well at least you won a round of proper planetarion.
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Unread 5 Jun 2007, 08:36   #119
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

so did greenhills
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Unread 5 Jun 2007, 08:37   #120
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Hello, I only read the 1st page, but hey, our gal in r10 or 10.5 held the value down by donating to galfund. We were #1 for a great deal of the round untill the fund got reset and our round was fked up.

The rules were changed and galfunds couldn't be more than 100 mill of each or something. How is Greenhills winning very different from us exploiting the rules a few years ago?

Ask cbk or aif or stals or arfa or sliekas, I keep mixing up r10 and 10.5. Maybe it was r11.
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Unread 5 Jun 2007, 08:52   #121
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

think it was r11, basically they had all people on in same ticks or so, and donated during it, while he spent, so value was not contributed until ships came out etc.
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Unread 5 Jun 2007, 08:57   #122
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Quote:
Originally Posted by mens
The rules were changed and galfunds couldn't be more than 100 mill of each or something. How is Greenhills winning very different from us exploiting the rules a few years ago?
More recently, a certain alliance had idle planets in it's tag with the sole intent of a) donating resources, b) bringing down average score. How is that different from you exploiting a rules a few years go? Was anything done about it? Guessed right? Figured. So does this have to do anything with the dodgy rules regarding the support planets, and the even dodgier interpretation of those rules which mainly depends on the hair day of the multihunter in question, his/her personal more or less biased views, the accused's contacts and pulling strings, and moreover, their arselicking skills.

The rules breach itself is secondary.

The punishment primarily depends on:
1. Your ability to fast/sweet talk.
2. Your relation to the multihunter in question.
3. Your contacts that may be able to persuade the multihunter.
4. Your knowledge of excisting cases and ability to use them in your favour.
5. Your ability to blur the rules into an obscure level.

If you are accomplished with all these five, you're likely to get away with it unless you do something blatantly moronic.
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Unread 5 Jun 2007, 09:04   #123
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

word
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Unread 5 Jun 2007, 09:22   #124
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
As it stands, the support planet rule alone is grounds to close everyone who
* has defended more than once
Only out of galaxy/cluster/alliance
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
* has donated to the galaxy fund more than once
* has donated parts of the galaxy fund more than once
* has exiled more than one person at their request
* has escorted more than once
* cov opped at someone's request more than once
* was a scanner
* relayed incoming status to an alliance
The wording UNFAIR benefit does not extend to theese.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Which comes down to every planet in a top10 alliance who didn't xp whore. There is of course mention of the necessity for the action to be 'unfair', but unfairness is never actually defined, so presumably not an important element of the EULA.

Note, I'm not saying this is the way it should be, but if you stick strictly to the EULA, without concern for common sense, all of these activites are to be viewed as illegal, and should thus be punished as per 18.7.
Again, the eula says unfair benefit. The definition of unfair benefit it ofc a question of definition, but I guess it is currently being interpreted as something that is not allowed to do as it breaks with other parts of the eula.
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Unread 5 Jun 2007, 09:24   #125
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
More recently, a certain alliance had idle planets in it's tag with the sole intent of a) donating resources, b) bringing down average score.
If this is true, alliance limits should be lowered..
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Unread 5 Jun 2007, 10:22   #126
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alki
so did greenhills
I might have to sign up for next round to kill you, just because you used that smiley
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Unread 5 Jun 2007, 10:59   #127
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Only out of galaxy/cluster/alliance

Quote:
Originally Posted by User Agreement
(f) Support Accounts are accounts which are dedicated to undertaking specific
and repeated actions which result in an unfair benefit for a
planet/organisation, where an organisation is defined as an alliance or galaxy.
There is no mentioning of galaxy, cluster or alliance apart from the benefitting party. Taking this litterally (although it is silly) would mean that it regards any planet that ever did repeated actions for a tag (any alliance player) or galaxy (any player 'actively' involved in cross defending / donating).


Quote:
The wording UNFAIR benefit does not extend to theese.
How can you tell? Unfair is possibly the most ridicilous argument in PA for any feature, because of the need for interpretation as to what is actually unfair (and there basicly always being two sides who disagree in the fairness of some use of a feature). For example i could find it rather unfair that resources from my gal fund (which i helped getting there) are donated to some idiot in my gal who crashed his fleet. Or that a galaxy helps to donate a planet back up to its feet after i spent weeks killing it with the help of my alliance/friends. And in both cases others would probably say it was fair use of a feature to allow him to keep playing the game.

It basicly goes directly back to what the other thread about rules enforcement is about, breaching any "unfair" rule basicly depends on your diplomacy skills towards the MH. Arguably you do get warnings for breaching the rules, but the rule itself is so vague you never know if other things you do might be breaking it aswell. Unless ofcourse you ask permission from MH for every action you perform within the game.
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Unread 5 Jun 2007, 11:04   #128
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
If this is true, alliance limits should be lowered..
On the contrary. As highly suspected (and also rumored that a highly influential fashion took it as their protege and denied multihunter intervention) a certain faction would have had fairly more than the given 70 this round, and during the round I spoke of the faction that had the idle donation planets in tag also hosted a total of more than the given limit of planets back then. All things equal, this says there are alliances that would if "allowed" (again I will not go into determining what's actually allowed and whatnot, even if it'd seem it's allowed to have more than the limit irregardless) be adding up more than the given limit to their tag.

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Originally Posted by Wandows
Unless ofcourse you ask permission from MH for every action you perform within the game.
In which case if you're in the selected few you might be allowed things others aren't allowed.
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Unread 5 Jun 2007, 21:15   #129
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

I am a little confused here surely the issue is with out of tag planets applying to join and auto donating funds?
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 08:11   #130
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Quote:
Originally Posted by zokka
I am a little confused here surely the issue is with out of tag planets applying to join and auto donating funds?
No no, this is old laundry, and concerns an incident where an alliance had more than the given limit in members, and had extra idle members in it's tag donating resources and weighing down, with a chunk of the real memberbase hidden out of tag in order to be put in tag once the time is fit, to replace the idle donation planets.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 09:40   #131
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Quote:
Originally Posted by mens
Hello, I only read the 1st page, but hey, our gal in r10 or 10.5 held the value down by donating to galfund. We were #1 for a great deal of the round untill the fund got reset and our round was fked up.

The rules were changed and galfunds couldn't be more than 100 mill of each or something. How is Greenhills winning very different from us exploiting the rules a few years ago?

Ask cbk or aif or stals or arfa or sliekas, I keep mixing up r10 and 10.5. Maybe it was r11.
While reading this thread, I was actually thinking of the exactly same thing, that happened to your gal back then.
Seems the leeway given to the usage of loopholes has greatly increased since then.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 11:06   #132
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

I will not join the praises for Greenhills, a smartass is still an ass. If the PA team believes he has to be rewarded I feel sad about it. He just exploited a flaw in the game... he should have done that during beta, but as I've seen too many times, people prefer to use the flaws to gain an unfair advantage rather than pointing them out to the PA Team.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 11:38   #133
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
...a smartass is still an ass. If the PA team believes he has to be rewarded I feel sad about it. He just exploited a flaw in the game...
Yeah, good reasoning. Mind if I ask you, how often do the people who "exploit" flaws win rounds? Would you feel like discussing "exploiting flaws" and recent winner alliances? Or in general, on a broad perspective, "exploiting flaws" and the people/groups who have won and have exploited (or those who haven't, it'll be a shorter conversation)?
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 11:49   #134
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Name one 'flaw' I exploited.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 11:51   #135
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kileman
Name one 'flaw' I exploited.
This round, which you didn't win, or the round you won? Of first one, you actually didn't win, of second, I'd have little clue as it's one of the rounds I missed. And it's way back to those different times.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 12:41   #136
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Realistically this can be held to be slightly more of an exploit than, say, xp-whoring in the sense that in very few ways can any of that score given to greenhills be said to be "his score". Incidentally did people deliberately crash fleets, say greenhills in order to be donated to, or galmates in defence so they replaced ships with resources? As I'm fairly sure deliberately crashing fleets, certainly in order to aid someone else, is against the rules (given that there's a history of this being prohibited).
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 13:08   #137
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

it's not that pateam think this is right - they just don't like admitting they are wrong.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 13:11   #138
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
(given that there's a history of this being prohibited).
Then again, having planets whose sole intention is to lay low and donate resources in benefit of a given group of players (admitted, this isn't about donating resources to a planet in a supportive fashion, but to grant a similar benefit to an alliance, so it's in my opinion similar enough, albeit perhaps the scale is blown a "bit" further) isn't new either. So, given that there's a history of similar resource donation not being prohibited...

edit.
Before anyone turns their eyes on the "Keizari's plan to win a round without ever launching a fleet version round 17" I appeal to the 5 point plan regarding rules enforcement. The given accusedly bald man behind all the mess is obviously on the very top of the foodchain.

What comes to crashing fleets and such, now that's a whole different story and whether the case at hands involves such is fairly unknown to me. I do think Greenhills crashed some fleet about the time he went very inactive (as a lot of people did) following a certain incident.

Last edited by Tietäjä; 6 Jun 2007 at 13:18.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 13:47   #139
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tietäjä
More recently, a certain alliance had idle planets in it's tag with the sole intent of a) donating resources, b) bringing down average score. How is that different from you exploiting a rules a few years go? Was anything done about it? Guessed right? Figured.
Actions werent taken as it broke no rules at the time. The game was changed however to prevent the alliance donation abuse and I find it highly strange that while the alliance fund was cripplied fairly badly the same limititations were not applied the the galaxy fund at the same time.

You would have though whats basically the same feature would have had the same abuse protection put into place at the same time as its fairly obvious (if not less likely) that the same abuse will happen
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 13:51   #140
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Actions werent taken as it broke no rules at the time. The game was changed however to prevent the alliance donation abuse and I find it highly strange that while the alliance fund was cripplied fairly badly the same limititations were not applied the the galaxy fund at the same time.
I disagree.

Alliance abuse was prohibited very strictly during round 15 with the eXilition case. Obviously, there were rules in place to forbid support planets too; round 17 donation planets were defined as not being support planets, so why would they be such now? Or, if they were defined as support planets, there was no action taken against the planets that reaped the benefits. The support planet rules are fairly the same now as they were round 17, what's changed is the hardcoded limits of alliance fund donations.

I'm still sitting with my 5-point-plan regarding the multihunters on this issue.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 18:38   #141
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

If I remember correctly most of the 1up planets didn't actually donate res to the tag, although I might be remembering incorrectly on this point. For the record ascendancy did it and we were told at the end of the round that it wasn't actually allowed and whoever told us it was had been mistaken or something. Incidentally does anyone think this would have stood if it significantly impacted the alliance rankings?
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 18:46   #142
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
If I remember correctly most of the 1up planets didn't actually donate res to the tag, although I might be remembering incorrectly on this point. For the record ascendancy did it and we were told at the end of the round that it wasn't actually allowed and whoever told us it was had been mistaken or something. Incidentally does anyone think this would have stood if it significantly impacted the alliance rankings?
Depends whom you ask. Sid claimed that he had it asked from the multihunters pre-round and it was approved, and you could ask from that faction too regarding the donations and fleet usage.


Also, impacting ranks shouldn't be the reason for different treatment. If I multi, and it doesn't impact ranks, is it punishable or not? (edit: albeit, 1up's win is mostly based on very flawed intel and failure to believe in the intel of others' of certain alliances and the gameplay resulted of that; so, it could be said, had 1up had not these excess planets, they might have been seen more as a threat and they may not have won the round. It goes complicated, though).
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 18:52   #143
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Bleh, I can't really remember exactly what was said. The fake members intag this was definitely allowed, can't remember about the donations. I'm not saying it should matter, I'm asking if people think it would have made a difference?
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 19:04   #144
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Bleh, I can't really remember exactly what was said. The fake members intag this was definitely allowed, can't remember about the donations. I'm not saying it should matter, I'm asking if people think it would have made a difference?
In my opinion, it made a difference, and I can pretty safely say Mek, Gate, and Sjor would agree here. We're on the other side of it all, though, and I bet 1up will say it made no difference. Fake members was allowed, except with the fact that it resulted with total members more than the alliance limit carried, which wasn't basically allowed (after the eXilition round 15 stunts I guess). Additionally, the planets donated resources to the tag and sent defence fleets inside and outside of the tag - these come from 1up people.
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Unread 6 Jun 2007, 23:42   #145
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Some people who should know far better are getting on their moral high horses about this.

Greenhills won, end of story. The rules and the game mechanics were sufficient to allow him to do so using the plan that he did. All that can be done is to change either the rules or the game mechanics in subsequent rounds. PA team didn't really '**** up', any more than they '****ed up' in r16 by allowing the XP formula to stay as it was; it was only obvious after the event.

I think some people are clutching at straws somewhat in trying to make a case that Greenhills broke the rules. I'd like to believe (as an Ascendancy member and Kileman's galaxy-mate) that Greenhills broke the rules, and it was all horribly unfair; every tribal instinct I have makes me want to believe this. But the argument just doesn't convince me. I don't think that there is any clear rule stating that what Greenhills did was wrong, nor any recent precedent.

For me, the question of fairness is this: was it reasonable of Greenhills and mockingbird to follow the plan that they did? Could they have pursued it in the honest belief that they weren't breaking any rules? I think they could, and did. Retrospectively declaring an action illegal is wrong, so we have to allow their actions to stand. It was not made sufficiently clear that their behaviour would be against the rules, if indeed it was. If I were in Greenhills' position, and had been stripped of my rank because PA team retrospectively decided to apply the rules different, I'd be absolutely furious (and I suspect that certain people who are presently on the other side of the argument would be agreeing with me).

As mz pointed out earlier, the support planet rule is so vague that any action deemed 'unfair' could be illegal. Nowhere did PATeam indicate that donations would be considered unfair. Maybe they should have done so, but I don't think that they can be judged too harshly for not anticipating this scenario. We all live and learn, I guess.
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 12:59   #146
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

In fairness while there are no clear rules stating that these actions were banned the existence of a rule which was, in principle and de facto, violated and the further existence of another rule declaring that 'as new methods of cheating are discovered the right to take action is reserved' (or something along those lines) it's not exactly some bizzare outlandish idea that this should not be allowed.

Personally I'm rather more concerned with the wider implications. Would this be permitted on an alliance-wide scale next round given that the support planet rule is effectively circumvented by it? Can we perhaps change that rule?
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 13:14   #147
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Personally I'm rather more concerned with the wider implications. Would this be permitted on an alliance-wide scale next round given that the support planet rule is effectively circumvented by it? Can we perhaps change that rule?
Actually, there is an excisting answer to this. After 1up's command was according to themselves allowed the idle planets donating their resources -plan, I went to the multihunter chief in order to enquire my plans. I was originally intending on recruiting 40-50 players who will initiate around 200-300 roids and build a handful of factories, hoarding resources, and then sign up a planet the last week of the round, throw in all resources from the alliance idle planets, and win the round without ever launching a fleet, and moreover win the round while on protection mode (I had it calculated, yes).

This was forbidden by Assassin. It does leave room for interpretation, as by the 5-point plan, 1up themselves claimed they were allowed the idle planets in tag donating resources. Obviously, 1up wasn't punished either, so it's fairly easy to say it wasn't exactly prohibited, and the new alliance rule hardcoded limits prevented me from neatly executing my plan the next round - and I wasn't arsed to revise it in case a tick per 24 would have been sufficient. It's worth noting that the following round Assassin joined the ranks of 1up.
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 16:08   #148
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
In fairness while there are no clear rules stating that these actions were banned the existence of a rule which was, in principle and de facto, violated and the further existence of another rule declaring that 'as new methods of cheating are discovered the right to take action is reserved' (or something along those lines) it's not exactly some bizzare outlandish idea that this should not be allowed.
But that's a really shit rule. "There might not be a rule against it, but we might decide to ban it retroactively at some point" is a very bad rule for any game to have. Besides, I still haven't seen any compelling evidence that the support planet rule was broken.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Personally I'm rather more concerned with the wider implications. Would this be permitted on an alliance-wide scale next round given that the support planet rule is effectively circumvented by it? Can we perhaps change that rule?
How is the support planet rule 'circumvented'?

The support planet rule hinges entirely on the definition of 'unfair'. Did Greenhills do something that was fundamentally unfair? No. Anyone else could have done exactly the same thing. No form of cheating (i.e. login sharing) was involved. Where is the unfairness?

The only case for unfairness seems to be that Greenhills' planet rank was based, in large part, on the actions of others. This is certainly true, but the only difference between Greenhills and Kileman or FeNiX is a matter of extent. For example, I built 32k rogues purely to defend Kileman with; the ships were almost entirely useless to me when I built them as I had no CR fleet to speak of, and as a Zik would probably have preferred to build cutlasses (given that I already had a decent number of banshee/spiders). Was I being a support planet by taking an action which negatively affected my own rank for the benefit of someone else? Yes, I suppose I was. My rogues probably made less difference than a direct donation would have, but as I said, the difference is one of extent, not one of intent.

Greenhills' actions feel unfair because we didn't see it coming and didn't have any opportunity to stop it. It's not clear that we could have done anything about it either; news scans have been nerfed to the point where it would have been impossible to observe the donations to the gal fund and I imagine that the planets with large stockpiles were immune to covert ops (or had already put their resources into the gal fund where they became untouchable).

Does this mean that donations should continue to be allowed? No. The game should be changed to prevent this from occurring again, as it is obviously not a good idea to allow people to achieve victory in this way, just as it wasn't a good idea to allow people to emulate your means of victory in round 16 (although PA team took their eye off the ball on that one, and managed to make it possible again in round 20). I really can't see this as being any worse or any different from any of the countless tricks Ascendancy have been using for several rounds now. If anything, I'm flattered by the imitation of our approach to the game.
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 16:26   #149
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
But that's a really shit rule. "There might not be a rule against it, but we might decide to ban it retroactively at some point" is a very bad rule for any game to have.
That's not what's in question though. I agree it's a horrendously shit rule. I don't think there should be rules against what greenhills did but that is wholly independent of whether or not these rules exist.

Quote:
How is the support planet rule 'circumvented'?
Dedicated, specific, repeated actions were undertaken to support a planet in the most blatant way possible. Given that the word "unfair benefit" is the most meaningless drivel a rule can have it's hard for me to see how it wasn't circumvented.

Quote:
The support planet rule hinges entirely on the definition of 'unfair'. Did Greenhills do something that was fundamentally unfair? No. Anyone else could have done exactly the same thing. No form of cheating (i.e. login sharing) was involved. Where is the unfairness?
This seems to be more of an objection to the support planet rule per se to be honest. Everyone could get thirty planets to sign up and defend it every night from out-of-tag but nonetheless this is specifically what the support planet rule is designed to combat. Personally I just ignore the word unfair in the support planet rule because I've never seen a sensible definition given that fits the facts.

Quote:
The only case for unfairness seems to be that Greenhills' planet rank was based, in large part, on the actions of others. This is certainly true, but the only difference between Greenhills and Kileman or FeNiX is a matter of extent. For example, I built 32k rogues purely to defend Kileman with; the ships were almost entirely useless to me when I built them as I had no CR fleet to speak of, and as a Zik would probably have preferred to build cutlasses (given that I already had a decent number of banshee/spiders). Was I being a support planet by taking an action which negatively affected my own rank for the benefit of someone else? Yes, I suppose I was. My rogues probably made less difference than a direct donation would have, but as I said, the difference is one of extent, not one of intent.
That's the two-way system of ingal def, he built tycoons to defend you didn't he? In terms of gameplay the actions are very different.

Quote:
Greenhills' actions feel unfair because we didn't see it coming and didn't have any opportunity to stop it. It's not clear that we could have done anything about it either; news scans have been nerfed to the point where it would have been impossible to observe the donations to the gal fund and I imagine that the planets with large stockpiles were immune to covert ops (or had already put their resources into the gal fund where they became untouchable).
To be honest my first response to hearing of what happened was "well played". It's only on reading the rules that I've come to believe it shouldn't be allowed to stand.

Quote:
Does this mean that donations should continue to be allowed?
Personally I'd make donations not count towards score. This means you get the positive effects of the gal fund being able to help new players but the potential scenario whereby you could donate a player to #1 who never logged in during the round is avoided. The announced solution by pateam seems to do that as well but to be honest it reeks too much like a quick fix aimed at one particular problem than a beneficial general approach.
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Unread 7 Jun 2007, 17:47   #150
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Re: Congratulations Greenhills

Looking at this, I am first glad that a galaxy first and formost stuck together, and hatched a plan, and put one over on all the alliances. (Mainly because I have a view that this should be a players game, a galactic members game, a cluster members game and an alliance game, not merely an alliance game.)

I would hope this does not get closed 'so it can never happen again', because what it means is as usual, PA goes down the road of actually punishing clever play.

In the purest form, this is what Planetarion should be about. People getting together and with co-operating, doing stuff.

I think I am right in saying that the alliance donation system is too crippled to pull off this move (Good!), so you'd still have to have a very very unifed galaxy and other factors to do this again.

I think the move itself has shades of support planets. But then you could apply that to alliances, and galaxies in general, as its a case of a variable level of support.

I have expressed elsewhere that I believe the game should move in a direction of clearer rules - leading to recoding. And an end result that in game, a player can only do what is legal. If you can do it, no matter how wacky, its legit.

And in the following rounds, where the community felt the move was too radical, recoding would adjust the game in terms of balance.

One of the unfortunate truths about PA is that in a lot of rounds, someone was leading and they get pipped, and grinding of teeth occurs (understandibly), because if you have a shot at winning, you'd like to win, anyone would. From what I read, which is perhaps not enough, I think the gal had to do a great deal of work to actually pull the move off. As such, we should not be so very quick to assess it as a bad thing. If its assumed to be too easy to win this way, perhaps rather than a knee jerk reaction, PAteam could just adjust it balance wise so that its a good deal more difficult to pull off, but not impossible.

As for a galaxy ripped of the alliances, well SORRY, how many times have alliances shat on galaxies to persue their aims. You won't find me shedding tears at the bleeding heart theory on how it hurt alliances.

If this led to a resurgence of gals and people working at that level, it would be a good thing. Not a bad one.
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