Planetarion Forums - "It wasnt me , it was those damned Canadians"

Kurashima · 27 Dec 2003, 19:01

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3351547.stm

One word

BOLLOCKS

Take some ****ing responsibility, put some decent procedures into place to deal with the problem, and stop trying to blame it on your neighbours because your procedures were shit in the first place.

MrL_JaKiri · 27 Dec 2003, 19:07

It's just the same as the french. Deny they had a problem, not put any preventative measures in place until WHAM.

Androme · 27 Dec 2003, 19:09

You should get DavinBrahm back here to fight this political debate off.

P.S. I'm totally in agreement with you Kura. I'm sick of tired of the American government making excuses for their actions. Why can't they just admit they have a problem with every problem they are faced with - sigh

LHC · 27 Dec 2003, 19:21

Damn those Americans for blaming others! They should be like everyone else and take the blame!

ChubbyChecker · 27 Dec 2003, 19:29

Obviously it came from somewhere
Probably Canada

evil one · 27 Dec 2003, 19:30

Well this is certainly unexpected

That reminds me..

Quote:

Originally Posted by evil one

[sarcasm]
Canada is probably to blame for this
[/sarcasm]

hehe

Nicole · 27 Dec 2003, 19:54

It's true, we have a horrible history when it comes to our meat. I don't know why I continue to eat it. I wouldn't be surprised if the whole country dropped dead in ten years from tainted Big Mac.

Aryn · 27 Dec 2003, 20:27

what a nice story. the US are so lucky that we had a case in alberta last year. that specific cow most likely didn't come from alberta.. but it's a pretty good cover up.

i agree with kura. the fact that they had to fly the tests to the uk because they didn't have good enough tests must have been a blow to the ego :\

lokken · 27 Dec 2003, 20:32

Blame Canada, it's not a proper country anyway

Tactitus · 27 Dec 2003, 20:35

I must have missed the part where someone was blamed.

Kurashima · 27 Dec 2003, 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactitus

I must have missed the part where someone was blamed.

You mean the part where a spokesman for the US Agriculture department says "This meat probably came from a herd being reared in Alberta , Canada"?

Arsene Wenger syndrome has overcome you. Quick , get this man an Optician!

Tactitus · 27 Dec 2003, 20:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurashima

You mean the part where a spokesman for the US Agriculture department says "This meat probably came from a herd being reared in Alberta , Canada"?

That's an assertion and, since BSE is not known to be native to the United States, it seems reasonable that the animal, or the food that infected it, came from outside the country. I still don't see anyone being blamed however.

MrL_JaKiri · 27 Dec 2003, 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactitus

That's an assertion and, since BSE is not known to be native to the United States, it seems reasonable that the animal, or the food that infected it, came from outside the country. I still don't see anyone being blamed however.

Your definition of 'blame' must not include 'being the cause of'. Damn those different dictionaries.

NEWSBOT3 · 27 Dec 2003, 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactitus

That's an assertion and, since BSE is not known to be native to the United States, it seems reasonable that the animal, or the food that infected it, came from outside the country. I still don't see anyone being blamed however.

BSE isnt 'native' to anywhere, other than planet earth.
its not like we grow diseases in europe and ship them over to you occasionally you know..

Kurashima · 27 Dec 2003, 21:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3

BSE isnt 'native' to anywhere, other than planet earth.
its not like we grow diseases in europe and ship them over to you occasionally you know..

Although that would be an excellent business model. Most chemicals companies have been doing it for years to the Middle East.

MrL_JaKiri · 27 Dec 2003, 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3

BSE isnt 'native' to anywhere, other than planet earth.
its not like we grow diseases in europe and ship them over to you occasionally you know..

The first sentence is correct, the 2nd less so.

Everything must start somewhere, and where the cause is something more based in random chance than the disease jumping species due to contamination of food, it's entirely correct to suggest that a disease has an origin.

Tactitus · 27 Dec 2003, 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

Your definition of 'blame' must not include 'being the cause of'. Damn those different dictionaries.

So if I write a story saying SARS originated in China then that means I'm blaming the Chinese for SARS?

MrL_JaKiri · 27 Dec 2003, 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tactitus

So if I write a story saying SARS originated in China then that means I'm blaming the Chinese for SARS?

By some definition of the word, yes.

However, also bear in mind that livestock control is much more precise than that of the health of humans. You can't force people to have their health tested against their will, but that is what happens with animals.

Intrepid00 · 27 Dec 2003, 21:13

I didn't know you could induce Mad Cow into a Cow by being the US. In here I thought it was a diease. Silly me.

Clearly, Blame Canada comes to mind.

MrL_JaKiri · 27 Dec 2003, 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid00

I didn't know you could induce Mad Cow into a Cow by being the US. In here I thought it was a diease. Silly me.

Clearly, Blame Canada comes to mind.

What craziness do you speak? HAVE YOU GOT BRAIN WORMS?

Kurashima · 27 Dec 2003, 21:17

The reasons behind this seem pretty simple.

America has a Compensation Culture. If youre proved to have done something wrong, you lose a lot of money
If the US Agriculture department is shown to have been negligent in allowing infected cattle into the country, it will be sued.
If the US Agricultural department is sued by every cattle baron in the US , its looking at costs running into Billions.
If they blame the Canucks and say they smuggled it in or falsified documents (Hey folks , guess what their next press release will say) then the cattle barons get to try and sue a foreign power. Nil Point for guessing where that will get them
If they actually have proper procedures for dealing with a disease that everyone else has been dealing with for years, id be mighty surprised. I note the articles so far seem to indicate they didnt quarantine anything until the lab results came back. Thats give then disease time to spread further into the food chain and around the country.
The US Beef market is worth $450 billion a year. If i didnt want to lose all that business, id make up blatant lies about someone else being to blame. Who CARES if their markets suffer from it.

Here Endeth the Lesson

Intrepid00 · 27 Dec 2003, 21:18

m00000000000000000000000000000000001111111111111!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111

PS CAn I have a side of Foot and Mouth

PSS Its amazingh how everyone overacts to one damn cow.

MrL_JaKiri · 27 Dec 2003, 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid00

m00000000000000000000000000000000001111111111111!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111

PS CAn I have a side of Foot and Mouth

PSS Its amazingh how everyone overacts to one damn cow.

Yeah it's stupid of people to assume that a disease that has a long incubation period without producing symptoms which has highly suspected links to a fatal disease in humans being revealed in an animal means that there may be more animals with the disease! Silly people!

Intrepid00 · 27 Dec 2003, 21:22

Tell me, how many people have died in total?

I mean worldwide, cause I know your going to have a hard time finding a few in NA.

MrL_JaKiri · 27 Dec 2003, 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid00

Tell me, how many people have died in total?

I mean worldwide, cause I know your going to have a hard time finding a few in NA.

Lets ignore something because we don't know how dangerous it is!

(143 in Britain)

Kurashima · 27 Dec 2003, 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid00

PSS Its amazingh how everyone overacts to one damn cow.

I believe theres a report now claiming this was one cow in a batch of 74 , the remaining 73 of which they cant find as theyve been sold onto various other farms or slaughtered.

Fun Fun Fun Fun Fun

NEWSBOT3 · 27 Dec 2003, 21:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kurashima

The reasons behind this seem pretty simple.

America has a Compensation Culture. If youre proved to have done something wrong, you lose a lot of money
If the US Agriculture department is shown to have been negligent in allowing infected cattle into the country, it will be sued.
If the US Agricultural department is sued by every cattle baron in the US , its looking at costs running into Billions.
If they blame the Canucks and say they smuggled it in or falsified documents (Hey folks , guess what their next press release will say) then the cattle barons get to try and sue a foreign power. Nil Point for guessing where that will get them
If they actually have proper procedures for dealing with a disease that everyone else has been dealing with for years, id be mighty surprised. I note the articles so far seem to indicate they didnt quarantine anything until the lab results came back. Thats give then disease time to spread further into the food chain and around the country.
The US Beef market is worth $450 billion a year. If i didnt want to lose all that business, id make up blatant lies about someone else being to blame. Who CARES if their markets suffer from it.

Here Endeth the Lesson

ITP, kura proves his point

Intrepid00 · 27 Dec 2003, 21:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3

ITP, kura proves his point

Kura forgets one thing, you can't sue the Federal Goverment according to the Constition.

Kura's point is flawed.

W · 27 Dec 2003, 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid00

Tell me, how many people have died in total?

I mean worldwide, cause I know your going to have a hard time finding a few in NA.

I read the figure 160 deaths inthe uk somewhere.

But seriously, this disease is so easy to prevent. It's not like it's a living microorganism that will spread or evolve/mutate. You basically have to feed a cow meat from another sick cow for it to get it.

Kurashima · 27 Dec 2003, 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid00

Kura forgets one thing, you can't sue the Federal Goverment according to the Constition.

Kura's point is flawed.

You cannot sue the federal government DIRECTLY. I sincerely doubt the US doesnt have a few lawyers currently preparing themselves to sue more local enforcement agencies and companies.

The individual whos farm this was found on , hell , hes going out of business. His ass will be sued all over the shop.

MrL_JaKiri · 27 Dec 2003, 21:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid00

Kura forgets one thing, you can't sue the Federal Goverment according to the Constition.

Kura's point is flawed.

I would see the point a little differently from Kura.

The issue here isn't money, it's public image.

If they can blame the illegal practices of Canadian exporters, the blame can't fall on the republican government.

MrL_JaKiri · 27 Dec 2003, 21:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by W

I read the figure 160 deaths inthe uk somewhere.

Official figures said 143, up until 2002 (confirmed vCJD)

Intrepid00 · 27 Dec 2003, 21:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by W

I read the figure 160 deaths inthe uk somewhere.

But seriously, this disease is so easy to prevent. It's not like it's a living microorganism that will spread or evolve/mutate. You basically have to feed a cow meat from another sick cow for it to get it.

Which was banned, in fact if I reacall the first thing they banned was UK feed cause they put cow in it.

As for the 160 deaths, I am more worried about the Flu that kills well into the thousands every year.

BTW, I just ate some steak.

MrL_JaKiri · 27 Dec 2003, 21:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid00

Which was banned, in fact if I reacall the first thing they banned was UK feed cause they put cow in it.

As for the 160 deaths, I am more worried about the Flu that kills well into the thousands every year.

I think we shouldn't fight cancer because malaria kills more.

Intrepid00 · 27 Dec 2003, 21:39

Your figures are exterated.

Quote:

(As of May 2003, there have been a total of approximately 139 cases of vCJD worldwide.)

Ohhhh, what a scary diease.

Intrepid00 · 27 Dec 2003, 21:42

Quote:

When and how did BSE in cattle occur?
BSE has been of great concern since 1986, when it was first reported among cattle in the United Kingdom. At its peak, in January 1993, almost 1,000 new cases per week were identified. The outbreak in the United Kingdom may have started from the feeding of scrapie-contaminated sheep meat-and-bone meal to cattle. Scrapie is a disease of sheep that is related to BSE in cattle. There is strong evidence that the outbreak in cattle was amplified in the United Kingdom by feeding rendered bovine meat-and-bone meal to young calves. The nature of the transmissible agent in BSE is not known. Currently, the most accepted theory is that the agent is a modified form of a normal cell surface component known as a prion protein. Why or how this substance changes to become disease-producing is still unknown. Prions are resistant to common treatments, such as heat, to reduce or eliminate its infectivity or presence.

Milk and milk products from cows are not believed to pose any risk for transmitting the BSE agent because experiments have shown that milk from BSE-infected cows has not caused BSE in cows or other test animals.

Hurry for the UK supurb system. Damn, how did that scare happen back in late 90s if you knew about it since 1986.

MrL_JaKiri · 27 Dec 2003, 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid00

Your figures are exterated.

Ohhhh, what a scary diease.

I got my figures from the british government site (here), and considering that's only DEATHS, and I saw a BMJ article talking about 'many' cases in France (having been 3 in 2000), I suspect you're the one with inaccurate figures.

In addition, ANY disease that kills people would be classed as a scary disease by yours truly, especially one as unpredictable as vCJD.

W · 27 Dec 2003, 21:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid00

Your figures are exterated.

Ohhhh, what a scary diease.

Hey I agree with you on plague hoaxes (how many do you know that has died of SARS?), but that doesn't mean that this isn't an issue because "just" 100 people have died of it. If you sell cookies where every 200'th cookie contains arsenic, you don't really have a defence "but only two people was ever poisoned!" when they arrest you.

Stop feeding cows untested cow/sheep/goat meat, problem solved in the long run. What makes BSE so scary is that a cow might have it and never show any symptoms, and even a human can carry it for ages before suddenly getting ill. Any numbers of _current_ dead doesn't do the disease justice.

MrL_JaKiri · 27 Dec 2003, 21:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid00

Hurry for the UK supurb system. Damn, how did that scare happen back in late 90s if you knew about it since 1986.

The government thought it could contain it.

The rogue prions thought different.

ps.

As to the laws on the matter, there are European laws on standards of livestock feed. It didn't stop french farmers giving their cattle effluent to consume.

Intrepid00 · 27 Dec 2003, 21:45

Quote:

Deaths from probable vCJD (without neuropathological confirmation): 34
Deaths from probable vCJD (neuropathological confirmation pending):

My numbers are confirmed.

Tactitus · 27 Dec 2003, 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

By some definition of the word, yes.

Not mine. I'd have to see evidence of some negligence before I started throwing blame around.

Quote:

However, also bear in mind that livestock control is much more precise than that of the health of humans. You can't force people to have their health tested against their will, but that is what happens with animals.

Actually, people can be tested and quarantined against their will--if the situation warrants it.

BSE has an incubation period that averages 3-5 years and there are, to my knowledge, no tests that are effective in detecting the earliest stages of the infection. That's why a number of countries are now banning all beef and cows from the US--there's simply no way to test it (and by the same token, livestock from the US obtained years ago could have been infected--there's no way to know).

W · 27 Dec 2003, 21:51

Quote:

http://vm.cfsan.fda.gov/~comm/bsefaq.html
Is BSE Affecting Cattle in the United States?

Active surveillance for BSE in the highest risk cattle in the United States has failed to identify any cases of BSE in the United States. * Federal and state agencies have taken a series of actions to prevent the introduction of BSE into the US food supply.

For example, to prevent BSE from entering the United States, firm restrictions were placed on the importation of live ruminants and ruminant products including meat, meat-and-bone meal, offals, and glands from countries where BSE was known to exist. These restrictions were later extended to include importation of ruminants and certain ruminant products not only from BSE-positive countries, but also countries thought to be at high risk for BSE, even if the disease hadn't been identified in those countries.

In addition, FDA prohibits the use of most mammalian protein in the manufacture of animal feeds given to ruminants because this kind of feeding practice is believed to have initiated and amplified the outbreak of BSE in the United Kingdom.

MrL_JaKiri · 27 Dec 2003, 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid00

My numbers are confirmed.

The only places I can find the numbers you quoted are the US government sites. The UK sites that I've seen (New Scientist and the governmental site quoted earlier) would incline me to believe that the US are incorrect.

Intrepid00 · 27 Dec 2003, 21:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by W

Hey I agree with you on plague hoaxes (how many do you know that has died of SARS?), but that doesn't mean that this isn't an issue because "just" 100 people have died of it. If you sell cookies where every 200'th cookie contains arsenic, you don't really have a defence "but only two people was ever poisoned!" when they arrest you.

Stop feeding cows untested cow/sheep/goat meat, problem solved in the long run. What makes BSE so scary is that a cow might have it and never show any symptoms, and even a human can carry it for ages before suddenly getting ill. Any numbers of _current_ dead doesn't do the disease justice.

Try more like 130 out of 6 billion cookies.

W · 27 Dec 2003, 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid00

Try more like 130 out of 6 billion cookies.

Try more like 1 in 10 billion cookies. My point still stands.

Intrepid00 · 27 Dec 2003, 21:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by W

Its '*' and if you go to the bottom it gives info on the recent infection at the bottom.

Intrepid00 · 27 Dec 2003, 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri

The only places I can find the numbers you quoted are the US government sites. The UK sites that I've seen (New Scientist and the governmental site quoted earlier) would incline me to believe that the US are incorrect.

No, confirmed cases. Not we think he died from this, but we didn't check.

W · 27 Dec 2003, 21:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid00

Its '*' and if you go to the bottom it gives info on the recent infection at the bottom.

I was not laughing at an old page not being updated you fool.

Intrepid00 · 27 Dec 2003, 21:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by W

Try more like 1 in 10 billion cookies. My point still stands.

I have a better chance of winning the powerball jackpot.

Quote:

1:120,526,770

MrL_JaKiri · 27 Dec 2003, 21:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Intrepid00

Try more like 130 out of 6 billion cookies.

What you're effectively saying is that the time saved by not implementing protective measures is worth more than well over a hundred lives, mostly from people aged 20-35.

If it was just one life, or even if it was zero and only suspected, I'd advocate getting the measures in place.