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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 00:26   #1
s|k
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A change in sci fi in the works?

I think that Firefly/Serenity and Battlestar Galactica, and even Steven Spielbergs War of the Worlds, are creating a new direction in science fiction that is vastly different than New Wave, Cyber Punk, or whatever system ideas and assumptions are present in Star Wars, Star Trek, SG1, Babylon 5, etc. What do other people think? Has anyone read anything along these lines?

One big change is a growing different (western) attitude that's probably apparent in popular culture outside of sci-fi since the global conflict with terror has escalated. It's not unusual for there to be a large shift in views and direction in art in accordance with world occurrences. In sci-fi in particular Steven Spielberg and the creators of BG have explicitly stated that they were inspired by 9/11 and what happened afterwards for their interpretations of their stories. Maybe sci-fi is just lending itself to be a useful avenue for expressing contemporary concerns.

I think sci-fi is often seen as a frontier, and that frontier mentality of lawlessness, confusion, and even opportunity might have something to do with this change I'm seeing. Space is also big, and can be an expression of being lost, which seems dominant in BG. The foes seem really large and powerful and evil and use underhand tactics that it's hard to figure out who they are, kind of like perceptions of terrorists. Is this a large scale change in the direction of sci fi?

You'd never even think to see a 'rape happy' crew of a federation ship in star trek (BG/Abu Ghraib'?), or a race of vicious cannibals created by the doings of the purported (but always sketchy) good guys (firefly-serenity ravens/CIA training&arming of the mujahideen). Also the use of big devastating events as an element of an irreversible and undesirable change in the life styles of the characters seems to be a recurring theme (Invasion of aliens in War of the Worlds/massive attack of the cylons in BG- 9/11/Madrid/London).
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 01:16   #2
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

You could be right. I can't remember who said it, but there's a quote to the effect that (the original) Trek couldn't really be made today because it's way too optimistic about government (and possibly even human nature). Now we need governments riddled with either conspiracy, morally dubious actions or overt evil. At least, that was the dominant theme in shows like the X-Files, B5, DS9, etc. Perhaps the emphasis has shifted, although I'm not sure.

Different sci-fi shows have different directions though. I'd say Firefly was pretty explicitly libertarian - wheras BSG is much more about a scenario of humanity facing armageddon. It'd take a pretty strange reading of Firefly / Serenity to say the Alliance wee more like Al-Qaeda than the US government.

I guess a of this depends on the (presumed) politics of the writers of these shows. From what I remember, Joss Whedon is fairly anti-Bush and I suspect these shows generally probably have a disproportionate number of Democrats and other 'liberals' writing for them although I'm not sure what I'm basing that on.
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 01:18   #3
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I guess a of this depends on the (presumed) politics of the writers of these shows. From what I remember, Joss Whedon is fairly anti-Bush and I suspect these shows generallyprobably have a disproportionate number of Democrats and other 'liberals' writing for them although I'm not sure what I'm basing that on.
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 01:18   #4
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I guess a of this depends on the (presumed) politics of the writers of these shows. From what I remember, Joss Whedon is fairly anti-Bush and I suspect these shows generallyprobably have a disproportionate number of Democrats and other 'liberals' writing for them although I'm not sure what I'm basing that on.
Perhaps the mind numbing lack of creativity of the right?
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 01:23   #5
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

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Originally Posted by eJohn
Perhaps the mind numbing lack of creativity of the right?
Pardon?
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 01:24   #6
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

What you're basing it on. If we're making wild assumptions then to me, the compatibility of neo-conservatism and science fiction seems dubious
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 01:30   #7
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

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Originally Posted by eJohn
What you're basing it on.
Ah, I see. Well, perhaps. There are quite imaginative rightists though - Heinlen was hardly a socialist, for instance.
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 01:35   #8
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

If it means more shows like BG and Serenity/Firefly then I'm all for it.
A point that hasn't been raised yet is that this could just be a sign of the genre finally maturing. We've moved beyond "wow - space aliens! with lasers!!" and instant plot resets facilitated by magic bullet technological devices at the of the episode, to putting more focus (I'd venture even to say the majority of the focus) on the people involved in the plot, and how events affect them - ultimately making the shows seem more real. Suspension of disbelief is easier when you care.

To an extent, this is probably about money as well as maturity. As sci-fi has gained popularity, better writers can be employed who can envisage long running plots with something approaching continuity, rather than taking the show on an episode by episode basis. In shows like BG, what has happened stays happened, and has (sometimes huge) impact even into the next series.

Whatever the reasons behind this I will, for the thousandth time, say that I think that Battlestar Galactica is one of the best, most compelling shows of any genre that I've seen in a long long time. If you have even the slightest interest in sci-fi, you owe it to yourself to at least watch the pilot and a couple of the first episodes. Even if you haven't, it's still worth a look... you never know.
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 01:44   #9
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
If it means more shows like BG and Serenity/Firefly then I'm all for it.
A point that hasn't been raised yet is that this could just be a sign of the genre finally maturing.
I think American TV (or TV in general) has matured quite a lot recently (i.e. the last few years). Perhaps it's competetion from grittier shows on cable channels like HBO or just society going to hell anyway, but shows seem a lot more willing to be 'dark' at the moment. There's lots of moments in Firefly where they can (seemingly) go the extra mile and Mal can actually kill someone rather than just sparing him with some dull rhetoric about humanism (which is what Picard would have done). Similarly, one of the best things about BSG is that it is very willing to give a depressing episode / event / etc. So much so that when they have a "positive" development it's actually surprising.
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 02:04   #10
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

but trek wasn't based solely on entertainment anyway, gene said many times it was deliberately written so as to give positive messages to viewers etc. whereas the likes of bsg is purely entertainment. also bsg is a sign of the times, think of the format of many other shows on tv at the moment, keep a dark moody atmosphere brewing, holding the viewer under constant suspense, then throw in the occasional plot twist for good measure, it makes me think how simular the formats of say lost & bsg are compared to each other as an example.
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 02:23   #11
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

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Originally Posted by djbass
whereas the likes of bsg is purely entertainment.
All shows give over values or "messages". The only difference is how conscious (or sophisticated) this process is on behalf of the writer, and how obvious it is to the viewer.

As I say, in the case of Serenity it seems rather blatantly libertarian. Right at the start of the movie River says :
"We Meddle."..."People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk, we're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome."

With all due respects to Roddenberry (for much of his influence was positive in sci-fi, and most of his messages had good intentions on some level) his "messages" became dull and got in the way of entertainment. Some of them were just wrong. The episode "Pen Pals" contained some of the worst pontification I have ever heard, for instance.
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 02:40   #12
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

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Originally Posted by eJohn
Perhaps the mind numbing lack of creativity of the right?
Atlas Shrugged, Illuminatus! Trilogy and The Moon is a Harsh Mistress are probably 3 of the best sci-fi novels ever, and the authors were all right-libertarian (afaik).



Also Serenity is pretty much a direct clone of Star Wars so I dont know how you can claim that it 'set a new direction' in sci-fi. Anyway, good sci-fi has always been about philosophy, politics and ideas, rather than "hey guys we're in the future look here is a laser!!!!" so I dont think anything essential has changed. Maybe Hollywood has altered the sort of big-budget films it makes but who cares really?

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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 02:46   #13
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
Also Serenity is pretty much a direct clone of Star Wars
I'd love to see you justify that statement.
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 02:52   #14
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
Atlas Shrugged
Is Atlas Shrugged a sci-fi? I've not read it yet, but that's not really the impression I was given (unless we're saying 1984 is a sci-fi too).
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 02:52   #15
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belgarath The Sorcerer
I'd love to see you justify that statement.
The lead character was lifted striaght out of Star Wars (Han Solo), and the plot and setting are pretty much identical (a tyrannical empire seeks to rule universe! A plucky band of rebels and their trusty spaceship seeks to oppose them! The sole representative of the empire is a ruthless-yet-still-human type who the audience can identify with at crucial points!). Serenity has better dialogue and hotter girls but that's about it.

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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 02:56   #16
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Is Atlas Shrugged a sci-fi? I've not read it yet, but that's not really the impression I was given (unless we're saying 1984 is a sci-fi too).
It doesnt have aliens and plasma guns, but its often classified as sci-fi even though I probably wouldnt do so myself. Its not like sci-fi is a particularly well defined genre or anything. 1984 is probably sci-fi too (along with Brave New World). I'd class pretty much any book which focused strongly on creating a world significantly different from our one as sci-fi, but then I dont really care about genre labels.
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 03:08   #17
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
The lead character was lifted striaght out of Star Wars (Han Solo),
Ok, you got me there.

Quote:
and the plot and setting are pretty much identical
Anyone would think you'd not watched either with anything even resembling attention.

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(a tyrannical empire seeks to rule universe!
Tyrannical? Nah. Certainly the Alliance is meant to represent the Bush administration, but I hardly think that they are tyrannical. The Alliance as far as we know is it a legitmate elected government (we are never told different afaik) and the Empire in Star Wars is a bone fide dictatorship.

Quote:
A plucky band of rebels and their trusty spaceship seeks to oppose them!). The dialogue is better but thats about it.
I don't think that they are rebels. Certainly they don't make it their business to fight the Alliance at every opportunity like the Rebels in Star Wars.
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 03:14   #18
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belgarath The Sorcerer
Ok, you got me there.
Even there, it's unclear. Mal is effectively an ex-civil war vet as seen in a fair few Westerns. He is supposed to be Han Solo is (in the movies) basically just a smuggler, etc. He is never shown to have any real motive against the Empire (unlike Mal). Obviously there are similarities, but the same could be said the same about quite a few protaganists in Clint Eastwood movies.
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 03:18   #19
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The sole representative of the empire is a ruthless-yet-still-human type who the audience can identify with at crucial points!).
Now I just think that you are trolling. You seriously can't equate The Operative to Darth Vader.

I mean, seriously.
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 03:27   #20
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The sole representative of the empire.
Have you actually seen Star Wars?
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 03:33   #21
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

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Originally Posted by Belgarath The Sorcerer
You seriously can't equate The Operative to Darth Vader.
Well, all black people do look pretty much the same.
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 04:22   #22
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Also Serenity is pretty much a direct clone of Star Wars so I dont know how you can claim that it 'set a new direction' in sci-fi. Anyway, good sci-fi has always been about philosophy, politics and ideas, rather than "hey guys we're in the future look here is a laser!!!!" so I dont think anything essential has changed. Maybe Hollywood has altered the sort of big-budget films it makes but who cares really?
Serenity has cynism and complex characters. Han Solo and maybe Bobba Fett are probably the only cynical characters in star wars (and more than likely why they're some of the most favored), everyone else was either philosophically good or evil and had pretty much unquestionable beliefs in their mission (although I'm not a walking star wars information booth). Even if there were other characters with depth I haven't named, Star Wars is just plauged with humorless uncritical walking automatons incapable of anything other than naive idealism of one way or another.
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 14:41   #23
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

I'd be cautious about making any direct comparisons between "new" Battlestar and "old" Battlestar.
As many of the hardcore fans of the original have made a huge fuss about, the similarities are nearly non-existant other than the names. There is little direct tie-in with the original plot, and frankly we're all the better for it. It was pretty terrible.
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 15:39   #24
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

You could have just done this using american dad as your point and we all would have been like "oh right yeah i geddit" instead of thinking :wtf:
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 16:19   #25
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

Whatever the change is, I can assure you that its to attract a "broader" fan base. Sci-Fi is getting killed in ratings, especially in the US. I have noticed personally, that some Sci-Fi, is getting away from the traditional "laser" ways, and have actually tried to be more down-to-earth, but with that same "galactic" flair. I watched some special free download of Battlestar Galactica? abd I was amazed that I could actually get into the show, even though I despise Sci-Fi. My dislike of Sci-Fi/Anime is tainted mainly due to the representatives of that "community" though. But after giving it a chance (free download for iPod ftw), some of the current works are idd tuning in to veiwers who normally use Sci-Fi as a que to turn the T.V off and call it a night.
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 16:31   #26
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
even though I despise Sci-Fi.
DO YOU EVEN REALISE WHAT PLANETARION IS?







Just so this post isn't entirely pointless I've become a big fan of dan simmons new books, illium and olympos. If you're looking for a really innovative approach to science fiction read those books.
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 16:55   #27
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
DO YOU EVEN REALISE WHAT PLANETARION IS?







Just so this post isn't entirely pointless I've become a big fan of dan simmons new books, illium and olympos. If you're looking for a really innovative approach to science fiction read those books.
yeah, I realized that, thats why I normally do more talking than actually playing.
I can'T read sci-fi books, and until recently, I couldn't watch sci-fi movies/shows. I really still am uninterested, but nowadays if one comes on I can at least sit through it.
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 16:59   #28
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

But how did you sign up in the first place? "Hey chika (what's your actual name by the way?) there's this great space-based war game you should play on the internet!" "Well I dislike science fiction and the representatives of that community but okay!" I rarely sit through any shows. I'd occasionally watch stargate when it's on but that's pretty much it.
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 17:05   #29
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
But how did you sign up in the first place? "Hey chika (what's your actual name by the way?) there's this great space-based war game you should play on the internet!" "Well I dislike science fiction and the representatives of that community but okay!" I rarely sit through any shows. I'd occasionally watch stargate when it's on but that's pretty much it.
It happened on about day 100 of a 190 or so day fun dance in the middle of the Indian Ocean. :s
Overall sci-fi is ok, but when I say "community" there is this group of "guys" that walk around with trench coats and wooden swords here. And they all gather in front of this Food Court and watch sci-fi films/Anime, and play sci-anime games.
Most can't get into the Hip/hop "community" because baggy pants/big t-shirts just looks utterly stupid. I can't get into the wooden sword and black trench coat.
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 17:17   #30
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
Overall sci-fi is ok, but when I say "community" there is this group of "guys" that walk around with trench coats and wooden swords here. And they all gather in front of this Food Court and watch sci-fi films/Anime, and play sci-anime games.
Hahahahaha, seriously?
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 17:41   #31
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chika
It happened on about day 100 of a 190 or so day fun dance in the middle of the Indian Ocean. :s
Overall sci-fi is ok, but when I say "community" there is this group of "guys" that walk around with trench coats and wooden swords here. And they all gather in front of this Food Court and watch sci-fi films/Anime, and play sci-anime games.
Most can't get into the Hip/hop "community" because baggy pants/big t-shirts just looks utterly stupid. I can't get into the wooden sword and black trench coat.
that sounds more fantasy than sci-fi. can't recall the last time I heard someone say 'put down your laser, I have a very large broadsword and I'm not afraid to use it'
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Unread 26 Dec 2005, 19:52   #32
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Just so this post isn't entirely pointless I've become a big fan of dan simmons new books, illium and olympos. If you're looking for a really innovative approach to science fiction read those books.
I'm glad. Got Hyperion for Christmas. Looking forward to getting started on it.
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Unread 27 Dec 2005, 09:11   #33
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

someone needs to make a movie of China Mieville's novels and show them to children.
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Unread 27 Dec 2005, 10:11   #34
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
I am not sure about the original premise of the question.

Alien was at least as harsh as Battlestar.
Perhaps erroneously, but I took the original post to be mainly talking about television (his movie example was terrible so I ignored it). It seems that movies were "ahead" of TV in many regards for many years, whereas now TV has caught up (and possibly overtaken).

The story-arc possibilities in TV series now seem to be (more) fully utilised these days, compared to the 'alien race of the week' fare which Trek was filled with.

Admittedly that's an issue of quality, rather than direction but meh.
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Unread 27 Dec 2005, 10:49   #35
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

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Perdido Street station would be a good movie except that they would **** it up and they would take out the whole beatle thing.
You mean the Kephri? I think they would have alot of trouble with the Remade as well. I'm not that sure it would be possible to make a good movie out of it. It would require a ton of special effects and be far too f*cked up for most mainstream audiences.
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Unread 27 Dec 2005, 13:23   #36
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

while the probable impossibility of a film is perhaps disappointing, the books are still damn good
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Unread 27 Dec 2005, 14:23   #37
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

Terry Pratchett is very good.
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Unread 27 Dec 2005, 14:26   #38
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

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Originally Posted by lancer
Terry Pratchett is very good.

i like buck rogers and that crazy talking black car
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Unread 27 Dec 2005, 14:42   #39
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Well, all black people do look pretty much the same.
LOL! good one.
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Unread 27 Dec 2005, 18:01   #40
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

hi guys,

i just bought the original "war of the worlds" (1952) on DVD. was looking for it for about 2 years, now i finally found it, next to the new (shite) version. what a dull remake can be good for eh?\



*oh and i bought the first season of red dwarf \0/
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Unread 27 Dec 2005, 19:04   #41
MrL_JaKiri
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Perhaps erroneously, but I took the original post to be mainly talking about television (his movie example was terrible so I ignored it). It seems that movies were "ahead" of TV in many regards for many years, whereas now TV has caught up (and possibly overtaken).
That's still not really a change in Science Fiction. Things like The Forever War and Tiger, Tiger! (or "The Stars My Destination") have been about for decades, and have presented what you espouse as recent changes in the genre.

Even to use one of your examples, The War of the Worlds (both book, and Spielberg film) can be taken to be representative of the hubris of the superpower, and pretty much then entirity of the film is taken, either literally or thematically, from the book.

In short: read more Science Fiction, you goombas.

[edit]

Oh, and having read what you posted more closely, I think you're doing TV and Film Science Fiction a disservice too.

Quote:
I think sci-fi is often seen as a frontier, and that frontier mentality of lawlessness, confusion, and even opportunity might have something to do with this change I'm seeing. Space is also big, and can be an expression of being lost, which seems dominant in BG. The foes seem really large and powerful and evil and use underhand tactics that it's hard to figure out who they are, kind of like perceptions of terrorists. Is this a large scale change in the direction of sci fi?
Those are themes that are definitely present in SG1 and B5, and I'm restricting myself to things you mentioned.

Quote:
You'd never even think to see a 'rape happy' crew of a federation ship in star trek (BG/Abu Ghraib'?)
Star Trek is hardly representative of anything. Whilst I can't think of any

Quote:
or a race of vicious cannibals created by the doings of the purported (but always sketchy) good guys (firefly-serenity ravens/CIA training&arming of the mujahideen)
Yeah, those Vorlons in B5, they turned out well didn't they.

Quote:
Also the use of big devastating events as an element of an irreversible and undesirable change in the life styles of the characters seems to be a recurring theme (Invasion of aliens in War of the Worlds/massive attack of the cylons in BG- 9/11/Madrid/London)
To mention B5 again, there are, for example: genocide, the carpet bombing of an entire planet and the entire earth being infected by a bio-mechanical plague and being quaranteened.

Please do keep up, 007.

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Unread 28 Dec 2005, 16:44   #42
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

you are such a complete nerd jakiri
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Unread 28 Dec 2005, 17:08   #43
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Re: A change in sci fi in the works?

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
you are such a complete nerd jakiri
I don't wear glasses!
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