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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 16:53   #1
Sun_Tzu
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Interpreting the EULA.

During the recent debacle over the actions of some Denial HC’s I came across some information about Denials internal tools, which along with a quote from the EULA provided by Kargool prompted me to write this thread. I bring this up for public discussion because it lacks direct precedent and thus I feel the community has to make up its mind as to what the stance on it should be. I would ask of each of you to refrain from abusive comments so that we might hold a civil debate on this subject. Thank you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EULA
8. You may not use our intellectual property rights contained in the Game or the websites…to create or provide any other means through which the Game may be played by others, such as through server emulators and bots. … You may not access the Game or your Account through other software than standard browsers, wap phones and alike, nor may you use automated programs / bots / scripts to do so.

18.3. Bots
Bots are not permitted to be used to access the game. Bot use is defined as, but not limited to:
(a) Using browser plug-ins that would make it easier for you to play the game
(b) Accessing the pages with another program (for example to check if you are under attack) ¿ see section 8.
The sections quoted above deal with various forms of external measures which interact with the game and may be used to provide a unfair advantage within the game. As basis for determining which actions are in breach of the aforementioned sections of the rules we can extrapolate some basic principles which may help us evaluate cases:
a) The game may be accessed only through standard browsers or similar devices.
b) Any automation of any actions is prohibited.
c) The game content may not be used to create any devices through which the game can be played.
How is this then to be interpreted? Various interpretations are possible, but in the interest of brevity I will only deal with the extremes.

The lenient interpretation of the rules states that you shall use a standard browser to access the game, each action must be performed by the player himself, and you may not create external measure which either access the game for you or perform actions without your involvement. As such, this forbids the use of bots and various scripts which may serve to automate various actions as well as custom programs for viewing the content provided. This may be seen as the conventional interpretation.

The stringent interpretation prohibits the use of any form of external measures which may be used to access the content, automate the use of it in any way or otherwise to play the game. Again, this prohibits the use of bots and various scripts as well as tools which may be indirectly used to automate the gameplay.

Now whilst these may seem quite similar, the results are quite different. Taken to its extremes, it might be argued that the stringent interpretation would disallow the use of a battlecalc or a service such as sandmans, because they provide a external way of viewing the content as well as automate various functions of the game. Luckily this is not the case, as Planetarion provides the information these services make use of freely and with the implied consent of their use for said services. Furthermore in law tradition may be regarded as a precedent. As these services are not only enabled by the actions of Planetarion but are also well known and have not been found to be in breach of the rules in the past, it may be concluded that they are allowed.

As I said earlier, I have come across some information with regards to Denial and their use of tools which may be considered in breach of the EULA. The tool in question is a IRC-bot which allows the creation of direct links to perform various actions within the game. I would like to stress that I am not proposing that aforementioned actions are illegal, however it seems to me that the use of said automation is in breach of at least the stringent interpretation of the rules, as well as our basic principles as set forth earlier. As basis for this interpretation I provide:
a) The bot automates the performance of an action be reducing multiple tasks to a single clicking of a link, thus it is in breach of principle b under a stringent interpretation which includes indirect automation.
b) Said automation may be viewed as either a means by which to access the game which is beyond that of a standard browser, or indeed as a means of playing the game itself, in which case it is in breach of principles a and/or c.
c) The means by which the bot has been created utilizes game content which is not distributed with intent but as a side-effect of how the game is coded. This implies that the utilization of said content which enabled the creation of said bot is in violation of principle c, and that the bot itself is in breach of the EULA(note that this does not in and of itself render the use of said bot in breach of the rules).
d) The use of such a bot constitutes a unfair advantage within the game as it enables/simplifies various tasks which require either synchronization of events or execution of orders. The mere existence of such a bot implies that it is seen as a tool which provides a advantage in the game in terms of simplifying tasks, lowering the amount of effort required, preventing mishaps(misslaunches and such) and enabling a faster completion of tasks than is ordinarily possible.

I would like to finish off by stating that just as in law, each person is responsible for their actions. One can not argue ignorance of the rules, as they are made publicly available and each person is required to affirm them as a part of signing up for the game. Neither is the lack of precedence or an ignorance of the possible interpretations of the rules an argument, as rules are not simply written for present cases but for adaptation in judgment of all future cases as well. This is all.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 17:21   #2
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
The tool in question is a IRC-bot which allows the creation of direct links to perform various actions within the game.
so in layman's terms what does this involve?
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 17:32   #3
Sun_Tzu
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
so in layman's terms what does this involve?
Click the link and it launches your fleet o place x:y:z at PTwhatever. Click the link and it scans (a) planet(s) with any given scans specified. Basicly PA allows you to perform actions by typing in the correct url for that action, and this bot converts orders into ready made url for specified actions.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 17:35   #4
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
so in layman's terms what does this involve?
In short, this is what happens:
1) Someone does !request planet 1:1:1
2) The bot makes a link out of this information, and pastes it to a scan channel
3) A scanner clicks the link and this opens a tab in his browser of choice containing the normal in-game scan page (basically, by clicking the link, the scanner tells PA "hello, I want a scan on these coords, please give me an URL to it")
4) Scanner then copy/pastes the scan URL back to the bot
5) Bot gives the original "someone" the scan URL.



Worth noting at this point is the following script (which I just wrote in about 2 minutes):
Code:
on *:TEXT:!open http://game.planetarion.com/*:#denial-scan:{ 
  if ($nick == scanbot) { 
    url $2 
  }
}
Assuming the scanner has been online in the last 2 ticks (bypassing bot checker and auto logout), this (fairly simple) script (in combination with a bot like Denial's) will automatically perform scans. While it doesnt paste the scan URL back to the person requesting it, it's trivial for this person to consult the alliance scan database, and retrieve the scan.

Effectively what Denial has started doing is create a "master bot", which can create URLs for extremely simple IRC scripts to open, reducing the task of actual human beings to logging in every 2 hours to do the bot checker, after which a single person can control as many accounts as he wants.

While I'm confident they haven't taken the second step (which is telling all their members to put this script in their IRC client), which would give them a bonafide botnet, this is a worrying loophole that can very easily be abused, if an alliance so wishes.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.

Last edited by Mzyxptlk; 26 Jun 2008 at 17:43.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 17:38   #5
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

so in a sense: if you're logged in and are a scanner, someone is basically playing your planet for you?
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 17:39   #6
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
Now whilst these may seem quite similar, the results are quite different. Taken to its extremes, it might be argued that the stringent interpretation would disallow the use of a battlecalc or a service such as sandmans, because they provide a external way of viewing the content as well as automate various functions of the game. Luckily this is not the case, as Planetarion provides the information these services make use of freely and with the implied consent of their use for said services. Furthermore in law tradition may be regarded as a precedent. As these services are not only enabled by the actions of Planetarion but are also well known and have not been found to be in breach of the rules in the past, it may be concluded that they are allowed.
Sandmans, bcalcs and the other simulation tools, are just that simulation tools. Sandmans is just a medium of information that is readily available within the game itself, the sites design and purpose is to provide an organized and centralized means to which this data is displayed and made easier to access. And since sandmans does not modify nor provide any kind of automation that affects the game engine itself, its well within the EULA. As for the bcalcs, population calcs, cov op calcs, and any other calc, they are simply designed off public information made public found in the PA manual, and they are meant to simulate what might occur given certains actions. These calcs are not based off the game code and can be subject to error because there design is an assumed design not the official. While the results they display are fairly accurate, its still a simulation, and no actually game altering automation takes place and no game code gets modified and this puts the calcs well within the EULA as well.

As for the browser plug-in used by Denial is clearly a breech of EULA contract has its stated in its definition.

just my 3cents
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 17:40   #7
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
Click the link and it launches your fleet o place x:y:z at PTwhatever. Click the link and it scans (a) planet(s) with any given scans specified. Basicly PA allows you to perform actions by typing in the correct url for that action, and this bot converts orders into ready made url for specified actions.

well, ive never personally seen the fleet launching on a set tick/coords one, but the clicking a link to get a certain scan is pretty prolific in most allies tools that ive seen, and has been for a long time.

I cant see how it would go against the eula if all it does is link you to an ingame page that you yourself have to be logged in and click to use.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 17:44   #8
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii
so in a sense: if you're logged in and are a scanner, someone is basically playing your planet for you?
I'm confident it's doable (assuming the scanner has the script running in their IRC client).
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 17:45   #9
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii
so in a sense: if you're logged in and are a scanner, someone is basically playing your planet for you?
unless this is a different form of hax that isnt the same to what ive seen many times before, then no. You still have to click the link to actually do the scan yourself, all it really does is save you time in going to the waves page and entering coords etc.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 17:49   #10
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

mz just posted a way it can be automated, and you could write a program that would get the url back for the scan and post it into the channel.. is the same as that EULA part where a bot plays your account imo.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 17:54   #11
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
unless this is a different form of hax that isnt the same to what ive seen many times before, then no. You still have to click the link to actually do the scan yourself, all it really does is save you time in going to the waves page and entering coords etc.
It saves you time by AUTOMATING your actions, even when you click the link the steps taken up to that point have been automated to save time, and this is in direct conflict with the EULA.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 17:55   #12
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

I may have caused some confusion in my first post.

In no way am I suggesting Denial uses the script I just pasted. There is no evidence supporting that allegation, and I'm not so great a fool to accuse people without even the slightest hint of evidence.

All I'm doing is putting forward the motion that it's not desirable to be in a situation in which it's literally 2 minutes of work to create a (crude!) bot that automatically does scans.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 17:56   #13
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

surely using that script would fall under the 'Accessing the pages with another program' part of the eula which would get you closed, though it'd be pretty hard to prove. The bot isnt the issue in that scenario, its the script that logs in.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 17:57   #14
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceadrath
surely using that script would fall under the 'Accessing the pages with another program' part of the eula which would get you closed, though it'd be pretty hard to prove. The bot isnt the issue in that scenario, its the script that logs in.
Since the page would open in the browser, you could argue otherwise. Even so, it's completely untraceable.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 18:02   #15
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
Click the link and it launches your fleet o place x:y:z at PTwhatever.
i would very much like to see that link.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 18:03   #16
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Automating game actions that would require user input normally = cheating

Accessing readily available information through the use of a form of automation = not cheating

The information had to be created by user involvement. While using an outside source to do the actions required no user involvement.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 18:06   #17
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincinnatus
i would very much like to see that link.
Out of genuine curiosity, would it be terribly hard to create an otherwise blank HTML page that sends a POST to the PA server (assuming I've been online in the last 2 hours)?
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 18:08   #18
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cincinnatus
i would very much like to see that link.
I've been informed that said bot is used to generate links to launch fleets, the assumption that prelaunches can also be set this way is entirely my own as I haven't actually been given access to this bot and am relying on second hand information(although I believe, reliable).
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 18:09   #19
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
It saves you time by AUTOMATING your actions, even when you click the link the steps taken up to that point have been automated to save time, and this is in direct conflict with the EULA.
Quote:
You may not access the Game or your Account through other software than standard browsers, wap phones and alike, nor may you use automated programs / bots / scripts to do so.
This is the bit in the eula that mentions automation. Now, the first part is concerned with accessing the game itself and then goes on to read that automated programs/bots/scripts also cannot be used to access the game. In this case, the bot does not access the game on your behalf, and so their is no automated access of the game, as opposed to automated actions It still requires you to physically access the game yourself.

The script that mz mentions however would be in breach of this.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 18:12   #20
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

I can't believe people care this much about scanning to actually write this much about it!

ON NOES SCANS MIGHT BE READILY AVAILABLE?!?!
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 18:14   #21
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

so scanning like this is okay, which makes people launching your fleets for you like is is also okay? give me a break. this has 'abuse' and 'bot' written all over it.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 18:17   #22
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
I've been informed that said bot is used to generate links to launch fleets, the assumption that prelaunches can also be set this way is entirely my own as I haven't actually been given access to this bot and am relying on second hand information(although I believe, reliable).
proof? (assuming ur accusing Denial here) or shud i just call u an idiot now and get it over with?

edit:
I guess i shud elaborate.

I understand this post (primarily the launching fleets accusation) to be based on the lies of a bitter ex HC (Kenny) that was removed from our alliance. Some people Sun_Tzu should just know better.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 18:22   #23
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii
so scanning like this is okay, which makes people launching your fleets for you like is is also okay? give me a break. this has 'abuse' and 'bot' written all over it.
Are you asking my opinion, or are you wanting PA Team's restrictive view point on it? Heavenforbid that people should have to be at their PC for less time.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 18:31   #24
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VenoX
proof? (assuming ur accusing Denial here) or shud i just call u an idiot now and get it over with?

edit:
I guess i shud elaborate.

I understand this post (primarily the launching fleets accusation) to be based on the lies of a bitter ex HC (Kenny) that was removed from our alliance. Some people Sun_Tzu should just know better.
If I had proof of any specific illegal action, I would forward that to the MH's. As is, I'm more interested in the idea of this and the legality of the principle.

ps. The setting of factories to 0 which some Denial HC's were closed for is also doable through this kind of automatically generated link.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 18:34   #25
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by EULA
You may not access the Game or your Account through other software than standard browsers, wap phones and alike, nor may you use automated programs / bots / scripts to do so.
i don't even see how you're saying its not a violation of the EULA. just because you (general you) might feel that scanning is boring doesn't mean that it should be automated, and if the means by which its automated can also be used to launch fleets or perform other actions on your planet - its against the rules.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 18:49   #26
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

All it does is assemble a url with the parameters for scanning pre-populated instead of letting the scanner punch those details in manually.
its not possible for it to use anyone elses accounts in its current form - anyone who clicks that link will perform the scan in their own account assuming they are logged in at the time.

As such, i dont think its breaching the EULA clauses on bot usage since at no point does the software interact with your game account.

If pateam wanted to stop this sort of thing, its a simple matter of requiring all form submission to be done via POST requests. That will kill the possibility of using a 'time saver' like this, dead. ( legitimately anyway. It would force it to be logged in to an account itself this way - and thats strictly forbidden )
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 18:57   #27
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
If I had proof of any specific illegal action, I would forward that to the MH's. As is, I'm more interested in the idea of this and the legality of the principle.

ps. The setting of factories to 0 which some Denial HC's were closed for is also doable through this kind of automatically generated link.

If legality is all your interested in why did you post it in the Alliance Discussion forum?
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 19:00   #28
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtle
If legality is all your interested in why did you post it in the Alliance Discussion forum?
Because everything else that spawned this thread was discussed on AD and as such, I felt it would be natural to post it here and also easier for people interested in the other topics to stumble upon it, so to speak.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 19:07   #29
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
Because everything else that spawned this thread was discussed on AD and as such, I felt it would be natural to post it here and also easier for people interested in the other topics to stumble upon it, so to speak.
See I don't believe you. I think your just trying to reinforce peoples attitudes towards Denial. This is nothing more than a propaganda post based on non-existent evidence, but then I'm sure I'm just pointing out the obvious to the vast majority of people who read these forums.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 19:10   #30
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtle
See I don't believe you. I think your just trying to reinforce peoples attitudes towards Denial. This is nothing more than a propaganda post based on non-existent evidence, but then I'm sure I'm just pointing out the obvious to the vast majority of people who read these forums.
This was actually something i discussed in another channel several days previously and came to the same conclusion that ive said above - its not something 'made up' as a propeganda post. Hell - you dont need propeganda against Denial right now, they're quite capable of destroying (whats left of) their own reputation all by themselves.
Like watching a car crash in slow motion, all that remains is morbid curiosity at just how bad they'll make it for themselves.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 19:26   #31
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Phil^, did you bother reading mz's post where it gives an example of how it can be automated?
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 19:30   #32
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
This was actually something i discussed in another channel several days previously and came to the same conclusion that ive said above - its not something 'made up' as a propeganda post. Hell - you dont need propeganda against Denial right now, they're quite capable of destroying (whats left of) their own reputation all by themselves.
Like watching a car crash in slow motion, all that remains is morbid curiosity at just how bad they'll make it for themselves.
I'm confused, what exactly has happened to exacerbate the situation? Planets were closed/reset/punished, nothing further has happened. This forum post hardly constitutes any starting information to renew the crusade against Denial. I think the post by Cead sums it up, the wave scan bit is the same as some other alliances use, so thus multiple alliances would be guilty of breaking the EULA and what exactly would happen then is difficult to fathom (although based on previous actions by the MHs each alliance would get a different punishment!).

As for the ship launch bit, it either doesn't exist and is probably some twisted fantasy coming from the deep and dark recesses of Kenny's skull, passed on to a more than willing propagandist. Anyone whose read his thread on here would be smart enough to realise that we should be careful about what we believe when he says it.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 19:30   #33
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VenoX
I understand this post (primarily the launching fleets accusation) to be based on the lies of a bitter ex HC (Kenny) that was removed from our alliance. Some people Sun_Tzu should just know better.
Didn't Kenny quit? I mean, there's this beautiful topic on here somewhere in which he explains (in depth, I might add) what happened and why, and you didn't challenge his version of the story.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 19:46   #34
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtle
...probably some twisted fantasy coming from the deep and dark recesses of Kenny's skull, passed on to a more than willing propagandist. Anyone whose read his thread on here would be smart enough to realise that we should be careful about what we believe when he says it.
Since you keep on mentioning Kenny, may I ask who might be the more credible witnesses atm? Kenny, who quit the game and left the alliance, and admittedly had a personal falling out with some of the HC but probably does not wish the players of denial any ill...or the 3 HC's who recently got caught cheating and then tried to cover it up to their own members, and the 4th HC who helped them facilitate that cover-up? Yeah you see, in my world, the latter ones are actually quite untrustworthy...
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 19:47   #35
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Didn't Kenny quit? I mean, there's this beautiful topic on here somewhere in which he explains (in depth, I might add) what happened and why, and you didn't challenge his version of the story.
It actually needed to be said that 99% of Kennys post was BS? What are u, the most gullible idiot left playing PA? Infact don't answer that. I believe i already know the answers since somehow in the past 2 rounds u went from sponsoring me into ascendancy to seemingly actively calling for my head in a noose without even talking to me.

And it doesnt make a difference if he quit when ur posting logs of his conversations with u about this launching fleets shit in #ascendancy for everyone to read, from msn. Its amazing how someone can fabricate such things out of thin air with little/no knowledge of whether or not its even possible. And then our propoganda loving friend Sun_Tzu make posts like this.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 19:57   #36
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
Since you keep on mentioning Kenny, may I ask who might be the more credible witnesses atm? Kenny, who quit the game and left the alliance, and admittedly had a personal falling out with some of the HC but probably does not wish the players of denial any ill...or the 3 HC's who recently got caught cheating and then tried to cover it up to their own members, and the 4th HC who helped them facilitate that cover-up? Yeah you see, in my world, the latter ones are actually quite untrustworthy...

From my run ins with Kenny in Urwins I can safety say the guy has zero credibility to me. Now, maybe you legitimately think Kenny is on the up and up, people have been gullible before. If so, you're a fool. But hey the world is full of fools and you'll fit in nicely.

Personally I doubt you do believe him, but trying to make political mileage from is worth a shot I suppose.

P.S: The whole idea of Denial HCs trying to cover the closures up when the MHs leak worse than the Titanic is laughable.

Seriously, quit whilst you're only moderatly behind...
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 20:01   #37
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtle
P.S: The whole idea of Denial HCs trying to cover the closures up when the MHs leak worse than the Titanic is laughable.

Seriously, quit whilst you're only moderatly behind...
You've seen the Denial meeting log right? Where they state "a support team member" said it was ok? And they sort of forgot to mention that it was KoKs, closed cheater HC of Denial... That's what most of us would call "distorting the facts" also known as a "cover-up". Spin is the hip word these days.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 20:02   #38
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VenoX
It actually needed to be said that 99% of Kennys post was BS? What are u, the most gullible idiot left playing PA? Infact don't answer that. I believe i already know the answers since somehow in the past 2 rounds u went from sponsoring me into ascendancy to seemingly actively calling for my head in a noose without even talking to me.
I assume you're referring to my conversation with KoKs, during which I called you pathetic, having been under the (incorrect) assumption you were the one that said those nasty things about me in the document that used to contain the Denial pre-round plan. Apparently this has caused you some unimaginable grief and you've so far been unable to get over this. While you've grown a rather intense dislike of me (or at least, so I gathered, from recent events), the same is not true the other way around. I think your behaviour recently has been rather silly, your posts rather crap, and based on the endeavours of Denial as a whole, I would sooner have smdio as as a HC than you, but I don't dislike you personally, and am capable of replying to your posts without going into an off-topic ramble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VenoX
And it doesnt make a difference if he quit when ur posting logs of his conversations with u about this launching fleets shit in #ascendancy for everyone to read, from msn. Its amazing how someone can fabricate such things out of thin air with little/no knowledge of whether or not its even possible. And then our propoganda loving friend Sun_Tzu make posts like this.
He really didn't say anything other than that Gabz0r was "talking about" making links that would allow people to launch fleets at the click of a mouse. Whether or not it was true is really quite irrelevant, as "talking about" (yes, I'm quoting) anything really is not a punishable offense.

As for Tzu's so-called propaganda, I have yet to see any unfounded accusations. Fact of the matter is, your alliance is creating links for scanners to click, making the scanning process easier. The question asked in this thread is if that's against the EULA. Personally, I think it's an appropriate one, especially when one considers possible extensions to allow fully automated scanning, such as the script I pasted earlier.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 20:05   #39
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtle
...people have been gullible before. If so, you're a fool. But hey the world is full of fools and you'll fit in nicely.
Oh btw, whilst we're on the subject of gullible fools, I guess you bought the bit about the HC cheating being an "honest mistake" aswell?

Let's see if I can remember how you put it...quit while you're atleast moderately ahead? Ofcourse that's a lie, you're not ahead at all...
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 20:40   #40
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii
Phil^, did you bother reading mz's post where it gives an example of how it can be automated?
Did you bother to figure out how the technique works?
Its not something that directly interfaces with the game. The moment it does - its forbidden.
Its also something that trivial to prevent in the game by changing all variables read in form submissions from GET to POST , and altering all forms to use the POST method.
a 5-10 minute job, really.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 20:42   #41
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtle
I'm confused, what exactly has happened to exacerbate the situation?
They tried to appeal against their punishment, Thats what pissed me off rather a lot last night and resulted in a bruising post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtle
As for the ship launch bit, it either doesn't exist and is probably some twisted fantasy coming from the deep and dark recesses of Kenny's skull, passed on to a more than willing propagandist.
Its possible to use the same technique to speed up getting scans in order to launch fleets the same way - all you need to know are the variables to pre-populate correctly.
As far as im aware, this is a step they havent implemented but its certainly a feasible option.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 20:43   #42
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
Since you keep on mentioning Kenny, may I ask who might be the more credible witnesses atm? Kenny, who quit the game and left the alliance, and admittedly had a personal falling out with some of the HC but probably does not wish the players of denial any ill...or the 3 HC's who recently got caught cheating and then tried to cover it up to their own members, and the 4th HC who helped them facilitate that cover-up? Yeah you see, in my world, the latter ones are actually quite untrustworthy...
or, option #3 - the people in #multihunters who discussed this very topic...
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 20:44   #43
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turtle
P.S: The whole idea of Denial HCs trying to cover the closures up when the MHs leak worse than the Titanic is laughable.

Seriously, quit whilst you're only moderatly behind...
Its already far too late for denial to quit while being 'moderately behind' , hence the post i made about watching a car crash in slow motion.
How bad are you guys going to make it for yourselves?
If i were you i would seriously stop trying to defend or justify what was done.
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Last edited by Phil^; 26 Jun 2008 at 20:53.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 20:51   #44
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quadruple posting? Seriously man, think of the puppies!
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 20:52   #45
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

hey, i had dinner to go eat and couldnt be bothered combining them
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 20:54   #46
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
or, option #3 - the people in #multihunters who discussed this very topic...
May one ask what the conclusions were?

Also, I'm told the launch sequence is a post-form atm, however if you figured out what the correct post-sequence would be, I understand you could create such launch links anyway?
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 21:00   #47
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
May one ask what the conclusions were?

Also, I'm told the launch sequence is a post-form atm, however if you figured out what the correct post-sequence would be, I understand you could create such launch links anyway?
That the scan system in its current form did not breach the eula as it did not directly interface with the game.
That it didnt really give much of an advantage beyond all of 5 seconds saved entering the data manually
Also that it was trivial to block should pateam feel it is necessary

The difference between GET and POST is that GET sends the variable data in the URL - therefore anyone clicking the url submits the same data
with POST, the data is sent in the http headers, and can only be submitted by the person who enters it on the form - you cant give a link that fills in the fields as the data does not exist there.
it is impossible to generate a link which would work on a POST request.
You could create something that performs the POST request itself if you wanted to but that means directly interfacing with the game and thats something which is forbidden

edit: there *are* other ways which it could be done such as a custom plugin to automate form sending in the browser but thats something that i can see being written into the eula as banned
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 21:13   #48
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

I would say that clicking a link to do something yourself in planetarion should not be against the rules, as ultimately, the player in question has to take an autonomous decision to take that individual action and click the link to actually do that.

I don't view what you described as an unfair advantage, it's just interfacing with the game more efficiently.

Sorry to add this so late (I went to watch the football)

Code:
Originally Posted by EULA
8. You may not use our intellectual property rights contained in the Game or the websites…to create or provide any other means through which the Game may be played by others, such as through server emulators and bots. … You may not access the Game or your Account through other software than standard browsers, wap phones and alike, nor may you use automated programs / bots / scripts to do so.
…
18.3. Bots
Bots are not permitted to be used to access the game. Bot use is defined as, but not limited to:
(a) Using browser plug-ins that would make it easier for you to play the game
(b) Accessing the pages with another program (for example to check if you are under attack) ¿ see section 8.
Ultimately, the person clicking the link has to be logged in under that particular account. The link goes through a standard browser so I would state the following:

- "to create or provide any other means through which the Game may be played by others, such as through server emulators and bots." - the only method that this bot would be illegal is through login sharing, which means the people in question would have to be already cheating - so for this part of the rule it merely facilitates cheats, in the same manner it facilitates legitimate players.

- " You may not access the Game or your Account through other software than standard browsers, wap phones and alike, nor may you use automated programs / bots / scripts to do so." - the access here is clearly not automated, or at least no more automated than saving your own password in your browser. I often surf between planetarion screens using my address bar on an unscripted version of firefox rather than clicking - this isn't much different from generating links in a bot to let you access screens or execute actions.

- as we can see from rule 18.3 - if a browser contained free text fields or on screen buttons to make it able (for example) to launch while you were still looking from your overview screen - this would clearly be illegal. But using generated links is no different to using the address bar in a standard browser.

As far as I can see, just because an alliance cheats in one respect doesn't mean they can't be legitimately innovative in another (although I would probably suggest they've done this inadvertently).
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Last edited by lokken; 26 Jun 2008 at 21:45.
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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 22:00   #49
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil^
They tried to appeal against their punishment, Thats what pissed me off rather a lot last night and resulted in a bruising post.
There is no "they." To my knowledge 1 person appealed, and it was not myself or eksero. We took our punishment, apologized, and have moved on. End of story.

Secondly, Denial has no fleet launching bot, nor a bot that does any other type of game interfacing. The scan from url thing, that many allies use, is legal according to Cin. So no further interpretation needed there. Our scanners work very hard, and we are grateful.

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Unread 26 Jun 2008, 23:15   #50
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Re: Interpreting the EULA.

Your word is not what it used to be Reese. Why should we believe you on this given your recent behaviour?
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