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Unread 26 Dec 2012, 13:37   #1
Rangerdart
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Introduce a new Race

PA is getting stagnant and one possible way of introducing some new variety is as mentioned above; add a new race. If we look at each race and attack class this is what is basically available (please correct me if i am wrong or missed something):

*stats based on mz rnd 50

Races
Ter: DE/BS expensive, strong arm/dmg
Cat: CO/CR multi gun, emp
Xan: FI/DE cheap, cloak
Zik: CO/BS steal
Etd: FR/CR Multi type, reduced tax

Classes
FI: Xan
CO: Cat,Zik
FR: Etd
DE: Xan, Ter
CR: Cat, Etd
BS: Ter, Zik

So the only fleets that arent used twice are FI/FR, altering the stats a minor amount e.g. Etd FI/FR allowing new race to take on FR/CR but with speciality that the race can travel one tick faster.

Thoughts?
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Unread 26 Dec 2012, 13:47   #2
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Re: Introduce a new Race

The roiding classes you outlined aren't quite set in stone. Ter has had Co/De/Bs pods, Cat Co/Fr/Cr, Xan Fi/Co/Fr/De, and Zik and Etd have had pods in every class. You're right, though, in that no matter how you assign them to the races, you'll end up with 2 classes that only 1 race has a roiding fleet in.

Adding a race would make that issue go away. However, such a race would need a unique trait. I've spent some time thinking about that the last few weeks, and I can't think of any.

Another solution would be to give 2 races 3 pods. Terran and Cathaar would be my choice. Xan would get too strong with an extra pod, and ZIk and Etd can steal. This would also open the doors to some more variety between the races. There's no reason why every race needs to have an SK. Replacing them with resource stealers for some races be an option.
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Unread 26 Dec 2012, 14:51   #3
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Re: Introduce a new Race

I would also like to chuck in the hat that I don't like that 1 ship can alter the eta of fleet providing a fake... When you go down the road of 3 pod classes in a race this becomes an extremely potent tactic. I think that to counter this you should have to send a percentage of your 'for example' bs fleet alongside your de fleet so that defending it will get some losses for attackers. Makes it still a valid tactic but a double edged sword if defended.
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Unread 26 Dec 2012, 23:57   #4
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Re: Introduce a new Race

faking is the last vestige of strategy left to people when attacking. removing this option is a horrible idea.
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Unread 27 Dec 2012, 11:06   #5
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Re: Introduce a new Race

yeah faking is also the reason why people need to get inc scans.

but as for 6 races, even with 5 races its extremely hard to make a set of stats where a race isnt too good / too bad. And almost impossible to avoid unusable ships/op ships.

If you were to add a race, you really need to lower the number of ships each race has to 5 or smth to make balance somewhat possible (not including pods/sk) dunno if people want this as it would lower the options you'd have when race is chosen.
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Unread 27 Dec 2012, 11:49   #6
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Re: Introduce a new Race

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Originally Posted by Plaguuu View Post
If you were to add a race, you really need to lower the number of ships each race has to 5 or smth to make balance somewhat possible
I don't see why.
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Unread 27 Dec 2012, 16:31   #7
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Re: Introduce a new Race

What about if we remove ETD?
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Unread 27 Dec 2012, 16:31   #8
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Re: Introduce a new Race

and have multiple classes have FR pods instead of multiple BS/CR/CO/FI classes
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Unread 27 Dec 2012, 17:35   #9
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Re: Introduce a new Race

Removing Etd doesn't solve the problem of the incoherence between number of races and number of pods and classes to put them in. Adding a race does.
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Unread 27 Dec 2012, 17:53   #10
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Re: Introduce a new Race

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Removing Etd doesn't solve the problem of the incoherence between number of races and number of pods and classes to put them in. Adding a race does.
Its hard enough choosing from 5 races allready, the way to go would be to remove the silly ETD race. I think the history and emytholigy behind it is silly aswell.
Lets look backwards instead of froward
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Unread 27 Dec 2012, 17:57   #11
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Re: Introduce a new Race

Uhhh. Ok.
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Unread 27 Dec 2012, 18:26   #12
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Re: Introduce a new Race

A) actually butcher makes some sense here he has just worded it wrong. You need to find 12 roiding fleets, 2 of each class and people are suggesting going down the 6 races with 2 fleets route... We could though scrap ETD and have 4 races with 3 fleets and get balance that way. I think ETD shows that making a new race with a new trait is nigh on impossible, all ETD is a mash up of the 4 races, trying to give a little of everything but invariably ending up overly OP or shite or like a lite version of the Cat race

B) about my earlier suggestion regarding faking that rein slated. I'm not saying it stops faking, I'm saying it rewards defending. If you want to fake someone and they get defence, wether its defending real or fake the fact it defended should rewarded even if its a small salvage off the real ships. The attacker who is faking should have an element of danger to their attack even if its a small value loss
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Unread 27 Dec 2012, 18:55   #13
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Re: Introduce a new Race

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Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
A) actually butcher makes some sense here he has just worded it wrong. You need to find 12 roiding fleets, 2 of each class and people are suggesting going down the 6 races with 2 fleets route... We could though scrap ETD and have 4 races with 3 fleets and get balance that way. I think ETD shows that making a new race with a new trait is nigh on impossible, all ETD is a mash up of the 4 races, trying to give a little of everything but invariably ending up overly OP or shite or like a lite version of the Cat race
The only similarity between your and Butcher's post is that you argue for the same thing. The arguments you use have nothing to do with each other, and they're most certainly not the same argument worded differently.

You could return to 4 races with 3 roiding classes each, but we've had that before and it was not an entirely satisfying approach. I'm not saying it should never ever be done again (I think it could be interesting to try again sometime), but if the argument for removing Etd is '4 races with 3 pods', then you would have to always have 3 pods per race. You could never have just 2 pods per race. That's a restriction on the stats maker's liberty that I would not like to see.

As for a new race, I partly agree. The argument of making the stats easier to balance by making the number of classes and number of pods consistent is valid, but its own not enough to justify introducing a whole new race, not if that race doesn't have a unique trait. We should not introduce another Etd. If we can come up with something that seems entertaining, I see no reason not to implement it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaiba View Post
B) about my earlier suggestion regarding faking that rein slated. I'm not saying it stops faking, I'm saying it rewards defending. If you want to fake someone and they get defence, wether its defending real or fake the fact it defended should rewarded even if its a small salvage off the real ships. The attacker who is faking should have an element of danger to their attack even if its a small value loss
If you had to send a certain percentage of ships to change the ETA, then that would make faking harder. You didn't say it would (and no one claimed that you did), but that's the simple reality of it.

It would also mess with things in another way: it would make it possible to send 1m value worth of Fi and 100 Bs pods at Fi eta.

It's just a plain bad idea.
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Unread 28 Dec 2012, 01:02   #14
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Re: Introduce a new Race

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
The only similarity between your and Butcher's post is that you argue for the same thing. The arguments you use have nothing to do with each other, and they're most certainly not the same argument worded differently.

You could return to 4 races with 3 roiding classes each, but we've had that before and it was not an entirely satisfying approach. I'm not saying it should never ever be done again (I think it could be interesting to try again sometime), but if the argument for removing Etd is '4 races with 3 pods', then you would have to always have 3 pods per race. You could never have just 2 pods per race. That's a restriction on the stats maker's liberty that I would not like to see.

As for a new race, I partly agree. The argument of making the stats easier to balance by making the number of classes and number of pods consistent is valid, but its own not enough to justify introducing a whole new race, not if that race doesn't have a unique trait. We should not introduce another Etd. If we can come up with something that seems entertaining, I see no reason not to implement it.


If you had to send a certain percentage of ships to change the ETA, then that would make faking harder. You didn't say it would (and no one claimed that you did), but that's the simple reality of it.

It would also mess with things in another way: it would make it possible to send 1m value worth of Fi and 100 Bs pods at Fi eta.

It's just a plain bad idea.
Making more interesting stats is not what this game needs, again you would go around in circles.
You would just be redoing the PA of 30 rounds ago with new more "balanced" or "interesting" stats.
Atleast 46 rounds ago a new player would know what a "fighter" was, and what the a "war cruiser" did, i cant even know what the past 5 rounds "FI" class of ETD was, even though i played those round, a few of em even as ETD!
Partly you want to make the game more newbie friendly, with making offensive stats wich would mean no "hardcore" allie could sit the round at their bases without any losses, and partly you want to make the games more tactical, and suited for the hardcore player base.
1,2 or 3 roidclasses, it dosnt matter, the round will be as intereseting as long as you dont fck it real over with some horrible stats.
Make it simpler, not harder and more logical by introducing another race so your roidclass pussle will be solved.
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Unread 14 Jan 2013, 15:18   #15
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Re: Introduce a new Race

was thinking about this on and off for many rounds, and where do you go in terms of uniqueness when you already have the 'common' traits.. kill, emp, cloak and steal. And whilst a 6th race might be used to cure the issue of balancing the roid class's, could its uniqueness be used for something else also, to really make it a viable race, a welcome addition to the game rather than just a generic hashbag like etd (though for the record i do like playing etd planets heh)

one possible avenue is a 6th race who's uniqueness comes from its availability. that is to say it would not be available from tick start. it could be introduced as a selectable option from the late signup tick, or possibly not even then (i will elude to why possibly even a later tick towards the end of the post)

as this race would be limited availability, the mythology would be apparent... a long evolved race that had left behind sentinels ala mass effect, or wormhole aliens that are bought into our universe by a cosmic event triggered at x point (late signup point?) in each round. Those kind of mythologys would suggest the race would need some kind of advanced power or stats.. obviously if they are going to be overpowered the limited availability of the race comes in as a nerf effect, whether it be just that they are only available from x point in the game and maybe there is a block in the game code which only allows 1 or 2 of that race per galaxy (fits in nicely with the current late signup settings?), furthering the mythology of the race whilst being a convenient way to ensure the race isn't so overpowered they are unstoppable round winners (ie fort gals composed entirely of this race, made by an alliance deciding to skip the round start and all sign up at late signup tick).

the reason i think a race with this uniqueness would serve the game more than just being a 6th race to balance pod class is that they could possibly appeal to the ageing (ie leaving) people of early p.a. ppl who can't commit to a 7 week round of sleepless nights might like the idea of picking a race that is only available from tick 360.. or even later.. the last 2 or 3 weeks of the round. allowing short bursts of activity from people with real life commitments. Further i like the idea because you could make them overpowered to allow ppl chasing old sentiments to signup and have some solo fun, or underpowered with a unique weapon that makes them awesome for teamups but rubbish at solos (for the late signup guy who is joining up to help an old ally)

Personally for a 6th race such as this i favour something like wormhole aliens.. which have the potential for a unique attack. rather than kill / freeze / steal / cloak they have the power to create wormholes, so when landing in def or attack their'guns' create wormholes that send x percent (x percent being what they would kill if their 'gun' was a standard kill weapon, or freeze if it was a standard emp weapon) of the opposing fleet to a random place in the universe. you could be really evil and allow that random place to be the middle of a different fight that tick which would really add some nice havoc to the boring maths that is offense and defence, or you could play it safe and code it in a way that the random place will be heading towards a set of co-ords at eta 7, allowing the owner of the fleet a few ticks to play witht he recall time to ensure they dont get accidently fleet caught on attacks at their own planet.. or even make a quick calc and decide to carry on heading towards those random co-ords on attack. the eta 7 would allow the gal/ally of the random co-ords time to organise defence.

a possible way of nerfing the potentially overpowered nature of the race is that wormhole travel is unstable so in travelling to any location they will automatically lose between i dunno 2.5% and 5% of their ships due to travel attrition.

their is other possibilities in a 'wormhole alien' type race, that is they travel by way of wormholes, so they don't have a prelaunch option, possibly making it the race for the hardcore, if you so intended. they would still take the 7 8 or 9 ticks to get to a destination... possibly they have to send a probe before they can create a wormhole and its the probe that takes the 7 8 or 9 ticks. whilst the probe is travelling the ships would be in a power mode that means they cant be used, to keep in line with the current dynamics of the current method of travel. etc for the mythology of the race sake they can instantly send opposing fleets through a wormhole as its a random location they are sent to, no probe has been sent therefore its a random exit point for the opposing ships

a late race like this also has a get out of jail free card for the rounds stat maker. if the round starts and something becomes immediately and horribly apparently unbalanced, the stat maker has upto the tick the race becomes available to set its stats and rebalance the round

or not. anyways just a thought. carry on.

Last edited by DarkHeart; 14 Jan 2013 at 15:40.
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Unread 14 Jan 2013, 16:01   #16
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Re: Introduce a new Race

Now Appocomaster apparently has free reign we should be deleting races not adding to them.
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Unread 15 Jan 2013, 00:15   #17
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Re: Introduce a new Race

since the older races have well established traits and etd is a hybrid race why not make the 6th race another hybrid
so you could have 2 hybrid races instead of just one

Races
Ter: DE/BS expensive, strong arm/dmg
Cat: CO/CR multi gun, emp
Xan: FI/DE cheap, cloak
Zik: CO/BS steal
Etd: FR/CR cloak/emp
Asc: FI/FR steal/ strong arm/dmg



i have decided 6th race should be called ascendants because everything in the game should always be about Ascendancy :P
__________________
Ascendancy, now with added Irish

"In the absence of orders, find something and kill it."
-Rommel
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