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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 02:31   #1
meglamaniac
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Are we, as a species, screwed?

So I was considering evolution the other day, and something occured to me.
The process of evolution ultimately depends on one constant - that the environment (by which i mean the surroundings including other animals etc, not just the climate) exerts pressure on a lifeform which leads to selection of a current "best fit" solution.

However.
If this is so, then humanity has a problem. Our environment really doesn't exert much pressure on us anymore. If anything, it's the other way around.
Does this mean our evolution as a species will stagnate? If there's no pressure, what will be the selection method for change? So far as I can see, in the absence of one particular "design" of human being more suited for survival, eventually humanity will become an average of all the current differences we have now - but we won't evolve further.

This in turn surely means there is a very definate upper limit on our abilities. We're not likely to evolve super-big brains, as the cleverest people won't necessarily be the ones to breed (often quite the opposite in fact).
Have we reached our peak?
Is this "it"?



Your thoughts please.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 02:37   #2
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
If this is so, then humanity has a problem. Our environment really doesn't exert much pressure on us anymore.
Dude our environment still exerts a staggering amount of pressure on us.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 02:38   #3
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

well lets see.
america , home to lots and lots of nukes is becoming more and more christian fundamentalist.
people im sure who wouldnt hesitate to press the button
so yeah, the worlds screwed
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 02:47   #4
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

evolution is over.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 02:47   #5
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Dude our environment still exerts a staggering amount of pressure on us.
Yeah the weight of air on your head is like the weight of two elephants.

But i'd agree with megla, until we reach a stage where food sources are limited or people cant make a living being fat slobs getting benefits, then theres no advantage one particular 'design' would get
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 02:52   #6
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Natural selection doesn't just stop. There are now just a different set of conditions for success.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 02:55   #7
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Natural selection doesn't just stop. There are now just a different set of conditions for success.
actually it does.

it did.

it has.

amongst humans at least. and certainly amongst dogs.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 03:03   #8
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

That depends on your definition of "natural". Certainly we're less afraid of being eaten by lions but there are still uncontrolled processes acting on us all. For example natural selection didn't stop when we started clustering together in denser, more technologically advanced settlements in Eurasia. We evolved defences to various diseases which came about due to that situation and this pretty much still continues to do. I'd say the influence has lessened but until we're all virtual gods living in our sky palaces I'd hesitate before saying it had "stopped".
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 03:05   #9
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
but until we're all virtual gods living in our sky palaces I'd hesitate before saying it had "stopped".
all of us?

because i quite like my sky palace but i'll be damned if gd is invited
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 03:06   #10
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
Our environment really doesn't exert much pressure on us anymore.


I (as a ****ing geneticist) call bullshit!
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 03:33   #11
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by meglamaniac
So I was considering evolution the other day, and something occured to me.
The process of evolution ultimately depends on one constant - that the environment (by which i mean the surroundings including other animals etc, not just the climate) exerts pressure on a lifeform which leads to selection of a current "best fit" solution.

However.
If this is so, then humanity has a problem. Our environment really doesn't exert much pressure on us anymore. If anything, it's the other way around.
Does this mean our evolution as a species will stagnate? If there's no pressure, what will be the selection method for change? So far as I can see, in the absence of one particular "design" of human being more suited for survival, eventually humanity will become an average of all the current differences we have now - but we won't evolve further.

This in turn surely means there is a very definate upper limit on our abilities. We're not likely to evolve super-big brains, as the cleverest people won't necessarily be the ones to breed (often quite the opposite in fact).
Have we reached our peak?
Is this "it"?



Your thoughts please.
You are one of the many, many people who misunderstand what is meant by 'evolution.' Your ignorance is revealed espcially when you asked 'will our species stagnate.' Stagnate? What? Evolution isn't some process that creates better, more sophisticated, more interesting species as time progresses. Evolution is just something that happens. It's not a trajectory and humans are not the pinacle of all living species.

And to answer your question, let me refresh your memory on some basics on evolution (by natural selection). (I'm not describing the pillars of the process, just covering some basics).

1. Children inherit traits from their parents. Still happening.
2. From parerent to offspring mutations occur. This is still happening.
3. There are finite resources and we all compete for them.
4. The environment (including that which we create) presents us with obstacles that put stress on our systems. An example for humans could be air pollution, city water, large populations living in small areas, exposure to chemicals like household cleaners, etc.

As long as people are creating offspring through naturally produced sperm and eggs, evolution is happening. There are academics out there that are studying how humans as a species are changing over generations in response to our modern environment. For example, some suggest that we have a more developed and sensitive nervous system than humans had 2,000 years ago.

Anyways, evolution doesn't stop. Change happens, the DNA is, speaking roughly, all jumbled up before we have children, and that's why our children aren't clones of their parents. Even when a species appears to remain static over time, selection is still occuring, it's just that what's being selected is the average type.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 03:38   #12
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Evolution isn't some process that creates better, more sophisticated, more interesting species as time progresses. .
speaking as one who doesn't have the luxury of dying.

It'd be good if it was wouldn't it?
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 03:44   #13
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
It'd be good if it was wouldn't it?
Once we figure out how to manipulate genetics and get rid of morality we could create designer humans. One day it could be fashion to have children with purple bat wings and webbed feet. Of course it would just be a fad and having woolly 'ewok' kids that never mature will be the new black.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 04:19   #14
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

I bought "gattaca" for a fiver on Saturday and watched it that night and went "hmmmmmmmmmmmm"
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 04:24   #15
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
I bought "gattaca" for a fiver on Saturday and watched it that night and went "hmmmmmmmmmmmm"
You know you can already be made taller with surgery similiar to what happens in that movie. I remember something about some famous celebrity/Korean businessman who had similar surgery. I admit however that I may be completely wrong about this.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 04:28   #16
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
You know you can already be made taller with surgery similiar to what happens in that movie. I remember something about some famous celebrity/Korean businessman who had similar surgery. I admit however that I may be completely wrong about this.


Yes i knew that.



It wasnt a "complete hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm".
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 08:07   #17
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

And I heard that some black guy turned himself white so he could shag little boys, safe in the knowledge that white guys get away with it.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 09:21   #18
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
until we're all virtual gods living in our sky palaces I'd hesitate before saying it had "stopped".
Even then we'll still be evolving (not as inidividuals of course) because of the effects of sex selection. The environment doesn't need to exert any "pressure" on us for evolution to take place.

S|k is the most correct in this thread, and unfortunately Megla's original post suffers from a number of misconceptions about evolution.

Why we would want to evolve super big brains is a question I'd raise, given our current brain structure seems to be capable of wonderfully advanced things, but each to his own. It seems likely that if we did want our descendents to be (eventually) very different from us then we could achieve this far quicker than natural selection ever could (via genetic manipulation and so forth).
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 09:47   #19
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Evolution frequently causes maladaptations to spread through the population through genetic drift, but because they're not, of themselves, deleterious, they don't get removed except under the principle of genetic load.

In other words, evolution doesn't have a direction. It's not an improvement mechanism, it's a change mechanism.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 10:23   #20
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Some say that electricity and the resulting availability of cheap artificial light anywhere anytime had a significant evolutionary effect on the human species.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 10:43   #21
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

i didnt read all the replies so i may be way off the mark as far as the flow of this thread goes, but who really gives a crap.

was discussing the wrongness of so many stupid people being alive with my bf yesterday,
and the conclusion was reached that we may have missed a mass extinction size event that would have gotten rid of all the dumb people and honed the human race.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 13:48   #22
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

And online computer games have affected an increase in the number of short-sighted wide-assed people who can go 72 hours without sleep but can't run a block without getting out of breath... that might not strictly be evolution though...
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 13:55   #23
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richpur
And online computer games have affected an increase in the number of short-sighted wide-assed people who can go 72 hours without sleep but can't run a block without getting out of breath... that might not strictly be evolution though...
You are indeed mixing up the external stimuli and the genetic parts. What I'm most concerned with is indeed idiots and such breeding and as such creating more idiots, thus creating a bigger chance that further off spring will be idiots. In this manner the human race will eventually end up a race of idiots.

Why not remove all the safety labels from stuff now and let the problem solve itself?
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 15:59   #24
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

I wouldn't say that our environment isn't pressuring us enough.
I'd say the environment is changing too quickly for evolution to catch up though...
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 16:35   #25
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by madi
i didnt read all the replies so i may be way off the mark as far as the flow of this thread goes, but who really gives a crap.

was discussing the wrongness of so many stupid people being alive with my bf yesterday,
and the conclusion was reached that we may have missed a mass extinction size event that would have gotten rid of all the dumb people and honed the human race.
Madi, I have some bad news for you...you are one of the dumb people.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 16:39   #26
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richpur
And online computer games have affected an increase in the number of short-sighted wide-assed people who can go 72 hours without sleep but can't run a block without getting out of breath... that might not strictly be evolution though...
Developed changes that take place in our lifetime are not passed down to offspring, the capacity for the change is however. If a Giraffe has to stretch its neck to reach the leaves off a tree and for some reason this results in a longer neck and it then has offspring, that offspring will not have the longer neck.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 16:39   #27
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Drugs to cure disease, artificial limbs, and cosmetic surgery are all examples of humanity physically improving itself over the last 100 years. Genetic engineering and suchlike should continue this trend at a far faster rate than natural selection.

Natural selection is not evolution, its only one particualr mechanism by which evolution can occur.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
In other words, evolution doesn't have a direction. It's not an improvement mechanism, it's a change mechanism.
However, over time it generally tends towards increased complexity. While you're technically right, your phrasing makes it sound like its closer to being a random walk.


Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Developed changes that take place in our lifetime are not passed down to offspring, the capacity for the change is however. .
I dont think this will be necessarily true when youre talking about (eg) genetic engineering. The distinction between inherited and acquired traits may well break down once youre tinkering on that low a level; there doesnt seem to be any obvious a priori reason why we couldnt find a way to change X in somebody, such that the change in X is also heriditary.

Last edited by Nodrog; 16 Nov 2005 at 16:45.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 16:42   #28
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
I wouldn't say that our environment isn't pressuring us enough.
I'd say the environment is changing too quickly for evolution to catch up though...
Humans are, mostly, unique in the animal world because we use also culture to adapt to environments.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 16:42   #29
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

You know, stopped people dying so much is problematic.

There's only so much space on the planet.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 16:45   #30
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
However, over time it generally tends towards increased complexity. While you're technically right, your phrasing makes it sound like its closer to being a random walk.
It only tends for increased complexity as long as factors enable selection for it, which obviously has been the trend. I'm sure there are examples where the opposite was true. Complexity doesn't mean better nodrog. A human is not better than a single celled creature. I'm troubled by the direction of your argument.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 16:47   #31
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I dont think this will be necessarily true when youre talking about (eg) genetic engineering. The distinction between inherited and acquired traits may well break down once youre tinkering on that low a level; there doesnt seem to be any obvious a priori reason why we couldnt find a way to change X in somebody, such that the change in X is also heriditary.
Genetic engineering will change all the rules, but I'd classify it under artifical selection.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 16:50   #32
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
It only tends for increased complexity as long as the factors select for it, which obviously has been the trend. I'm sure there are examples where the opposite was true.
All the evidence I'm aware of seems to imply that evolution generally tends towards increased complexity. Its not a random process.

Quote:
Complexity doesn't mean better nodrog. A human is not better than a single celled creature. I'm troubled by the direction of your argument.
Noone mentioned 'better'. I wasnt making a normative claim.

However, by any reasonable definition of the English language word 'better', humans are better than unicellular organisms.


Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
Genetic engineering will change all the rules, but I'd classify it under artifical selection.
You can certainly make the decision to call any selection involving advanced science 'artificial', but I'm not sure what purpose this distinction serves.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 16:54   #33
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
However, by any reasonable definition of the English language word 'better', humans are better than unicellular organisms.
By any reasonable definition of the word "better", that comparison doesn't even make sense. Is a rock better than cheese? Is blue better than potatoes?

It's practically meaningless unless you're establishing some parameters.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 16:57   #34
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
You can certainly make the decision to call any selection involving advanced science 'artificial', but I'm not sure what purpose this distinction serves.
The purpose is to juxtaposition genetic engineering in a lab next to the genetic engineering humans have been doing for a few millenia with domesticated animals and plants.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 16:57   #35
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
By any reasonable definition of the word "better", that comparison doesn't even make sense. Is a rock better than cheese? Is blue better than potatoes?
Well, all comparasions are meaningless if taken out of context. But there is context here, and if you asked most people to assess what evolutionary traits they found desirable, I assume that things like 'intelligence', 'complexity', 'rationality' etc would be among the first mentioned.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 16:59   #36
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

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Originally Posted by s|k
The purpose is to juxtaposition genetic engineering in a lab next to the genetic engineering humans have been doing for a few millenia with domesticated animals and plants.
Again, I dont know what purpose this distinction is meant to serve. Breeding dogs is different from breeding horses, but I see no reason to label one as being more natural than the other.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 17:02   #37
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
By any reasonable definition of the word "better", that comparison doesn't even make sense. Is a rock better than cheese? Is blue better than potatoes?

It's practically meaningless unless you're establishing some parameters.
It's also not 'better' in terms of survival. Complexity has disadvanatges. It requires more resources, a longer development time (a longer childhood for instance), it also results in a greater sensitivity of a species to environmental changes. A nuclear winter could spell the end for big mammals, but small, less complex organisms will survive. If there was a terrible catastrohpe which led to massive changes on the surface of the Earth, the relatively simple microorganisms living by the hot vents on the bottom of the ocean will probably survive.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 17:05   #38
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

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Originally Posted by s|k
It's also not 'better' in terms of survival. Complexity has disadvanatges. It requires more resources, a longer development time (a longer childhood for instance), it also results in a greater sensitivity of a species to environmental changes. A nuclear winter could spell the end for big mammals, but small, less complex organisms will survive. If there was a terrible catastrohpe which led to massive changes on the surface of the Earth, the relatively simple microorganisms living by the hot vents on the bottom of the ocean will probably survive.
I dont think you can make comparasions like this; there's too many variables involved. Let's say that mankind manages to colonise a few other planets - do we now have a higher survival probability than cockroaches? After all, the entire Earth could now blow up and we would still exist, thanks to advanced science and engineering.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 17:08   #39
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
Again, I dont know what purpose this distinction is meant to serve. Breeding dogs is different from breeding horses, but I see no reason to label one as being more natural than the other.
My point is that celebrating modern thought for it's ingenuity is ignorant. I have a real problem with the word 'better,' as you can tell. It's a problem that you don't seem to share. No human is more advanced than any other nodrog, you really sometimes come across as fascist. No offense.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 17:11   #40
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
I dont think you can make comparasions like this; there's too many variables involved. Let's say that mankind manages to colonise a few other planets - do we now have a higher survival probability than cockroaches? After all, the entire Earth could now blow up and we would still exist, thanks to advanced science and engineering.
I don't believe in science fiction.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 17:18   #41
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

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I don't believe in science fiction.
we have advanced pretty quickly in the last few thousand years, what makes you so sure we wont continue?
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 17:19   #42
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

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Originally Posted by s|k
My point is that celebrating modern thought for it's ingenuity is ignorant. I have a real problem with the word 'better,' as you can tell. It's a problem that you don't seem to share. No human is more advanced than any other nodrog, you really sometimes come across as fascist. No offense.
Would you refuse to say, for example, that the average man of today is more advanced than the average homo-erectus that precedeeded us evolutionary, despite the obvious physiological differences? Assuming that you would say this, is there any principled reason why one human couldnt be more advanced than another, once we have given our terms a sensible definition (perhaps one involving brain power, relative to some particular standard).
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 17:21   #43
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
Well, all comparasions are meaningless if taken out of context. But there is context here, and if you asked most people to assess what evolutionary traits they found desirable, I assume that things like 'intelligence', 'complexity', 'rationality' etc would be among the first mentioned.
If the context is "What would you prefer to be, a human being or a cockroack" and you ask a bunch of human beings then sure they may agree. But that didn't seem to be the context your original remark appeared in.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 17:25   #44
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
If the context is "What would you prefer to be, a human being or a cockroack" and you ask a bunch of human beings then sure they may agree. But that didn't seem to be the context your original remark appeared in.
I would say that its part of the meaning of the word 'better' that it is normally used to compare things based on how desirable they are to humans. High intelligence is better than low inteligent, stronger is better than weaker, food is better to eat than poison, a sharp knife is better than a blunt knife, and so on (and in the cases where these claims fail to hold, it will generally be true because the opposite is preferable to humans; its better that a blunt knife gets dropped on your foot than a sharp one). With this in mind, its difficult to say what unicellular organisms have which could possible make them 'better' than humans.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 17:26   #45
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
Would you refuse to say, for example, that a modern man is more advanced than the average homo-erectus that precedeeded us evolutionary, despite the obvious physiological differences? Assuming that you would say this, is there any principled reason why one human couldnt be more advanced than another, once we have given our terms a sensible definition (perhaps one relating to brain power, quantified by some standard).
I wouldn't say 'advanced' I'd say more suited for survival.

No, no human is more advanced than any other, ever, for any reason. I don't care what kind of tests people develop, I don't care what kind of standards they want to adopt, I don't care what it is people will put in their heads. It will never justify creating a second class of humans with more rights and privileges and distinction than other humans. You know why? Because 'better' is all in your head. Because 'objectivity' is nonsense. Do you see why I hate that word now JBG? Nodrog, it is incorrect, it is unethical, it is immoral, it is arbitrary, and it's often engineered in such away that the purveyor of the idea will structure the idea to reflect on himself and his likeness favorably.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 17:29   #46
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

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Originally Posted by s|k
No, no human is more advanced than any other, ever, for any reason. I don't care what kind of tests people develop, I don't care what kind of standards they want to adopt, I don't care what it is people will put in their heads.
As long as you realise that this is just a statement about how you want to use the word 'advanced', rather than being a claim about any measurable properties of humans or other creatures, I dont have a problem with this.

Quote:
It will never justify creating a second class of humans with more rights and privileges and distinction than other humans. You know why? Because 'better' is all in you head. Because 'objectivity' is nonsense. Do you see why I hate that word now JBG? Nodrog, it is incorrect, it is unethical, it is immoral, it is arbitrary, and it's often engineered in such away that the purveyor of the idea will structure the idea to reflect on himself and his likeness favorably.
What is the justification for treating mice and cockroaches as second class citizens, assuming that we're all the same from an evolutionary point of view? If you apply this view consistently, it seems to lead into animal rights loonyness. If we arent any more advanced/better/whatever than homo erectus, then I doubt that we're any more advanced than monkeys either so maybe we should give them equal rights.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 17:31   #47
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

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If you apply this view consistently, it seems to lead into animal rights loonyness.
I limit the application to humans.

EDIT: I limit my horror of creating classifications and divisions within a species to humans. I don't believe that humans are either more 'advanced' or 'better' than apes or monkeys. I just think we're different.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 17:34   #48
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

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Originally Posted by s|k
I limit the application to humans.
Why? From an evolutionary point of view there arent rigidly defined species categories; it's just continual blending all the way. Unless something specific and important happens at some point in the evolutionary timeline (involving eg, mental ability and the capacity for rational thought), I dont see why you'd want to differentiate between humans and cats.

Quote:
EDIT: I limit my horror to creating classifications and divisions within a species to humans. I don't believe that humans are either more 'advanced' or 'better' than apes or monkeys. I just think we're different.
So what are your criteria for being a species? If you want to use an idealised biological one involving interbreeding, then what makes the human species so special that you dont want to subdivide within it? You obviously want to treat humans as being fundamentally different from all other species, yet you refuse to say they are more advanced/better/whatever.

Also, why cant humans evolve into two or more new species?

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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 17:35   #49
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Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

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Why? From an evolutionary point of view there arent rigidly defined categories; theres just continual blending all the way. Unless something specific and important happens at some point in the evolutionary timeline (involving eg, mental ability and the capacity for rational thought), I dont see why you'd want to differentiate between humans and cats.
Please, note my edit.
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Unread 16 Nov 2005, 17:44   #50
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Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.Dante Hicks has ascended to a higher existance and no longer needs rep points to prove the size of his e-penis.
Re: Are we, as a species, screwed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
You obviously want to treat humans as being fundamentally different from all other species, yet you refuse to say they are more advanced/better/whatever.
Different != Better.

I treat my computer differently to my testicles, yet it'd be strange to say one was better than the other. My testicles are pretty shit at playing Civ 4, yet my PC is similarly useless at producing sperm.

"Second class", "Inferior", "Less advanced" are all just loaded terms really - without any real merit.

It is perfectly right to treat animals differently to human beings because they are different. Not because we're more advanced or whatever.
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