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Unread 7 Nov 2005, 13:18   #1
Deepflow
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How many days?

Link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4411358.stm

Thats just the latest one i found on the bbc website, obviously the story has been running for some time.

Anyway, what does everyone think about this? There are so many different angles to the situation.

Firstly it can just be seen as how Blair wants us to see it, a neccessary amendment to the law due to the changing international situation. We are told that the police have asked specifically for 90 days, as that is what they think they need to effectively protect us. I'm always sceptical about people reccommending that they are given more power, for obvious reasons.

Then again, I imagine a certain amount of it is just a power struggle within the Labour party. It's the weakest Tony has been since he came to power (to my recollection at least), and the reduced majority means that backbenchers can actually make a difference again. Its nice to see the executive not get it's way for once.

Of course, it's quite probable that this was predicted anyway and they never wanted 90 days in the first place. I certainly don't see how they could have expected it to get through.

Legally, I'm quite confused. Would this bill mean the suspension of Habeus Corpus? I expect I'm wrong as I haven't heard anything about it, but it certainly seems like a major constitutional change in any case.

Anyway... discuss.
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Unread 7 Nov 2005, 13:27   #2
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Re: How many days?

if it was me i'd be well ****ing pissed that i was in prison for THREE MONTHS without charge , and would probably lose my job etc as a result.

and there'd be bugger all i could do about it.
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Unread 7 Nov 2005, 13:29   #3
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Re: How many days?

I'd support about 90 minutes. Actually that's a bit long on reflection. Half an hour would be good.
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Unread 7 Nov 2005, 13:37   #4
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Re: How many days?

I believe 12 hours is the norm to muster together a good gang raping. So 12 hours
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Unread 7 Nov 2005, 13:40   #5
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Re: How many days?

New Labour have little to no concern for the constitution.

Lord protect us the minute some bright spark at the metropolitan police tells Tony that if we were all in prison then the crime statistics would drasticly fall.
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Unread 7 Nov 2005, 14:41   #6
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Re: How many days?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
New Labour have little to no concern for the constitution.

Lord protect us the minute some bright spark at the metropolitan police tells Tony that if we were all in prison then the crime statistics would drasticly fall.
The prisons are already full. We'd all have to be tagged on early release.
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Unread 7 Nov 2005, 14:56   #7
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Re: How many days?

Is Tony Blair Satan in disguise ?

and would this make Charles Kennedy Jesus Christ reincarneted ?
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Unread 7 Nov 2005, 15:01   #8
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Re: How many days?

The new anti-terror legislation is quite draconian, this much is true.

It violates the Human Rights Act 1998 (which is based on the European Convention on Human Rights, which itself is based on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights), specifically:
Article 5, sections 3 and 4.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
New Labour have little to no concern for the constitution.
Maybe it's time it got written down then.

And to answer Deepflow's question: If groups of people want to plot to commit terrible acts of violence against innocent people on such scales like 9/11 and 7/7 et al, then i believe that they are effectively giving up their human rights.
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Unread 7 Nov 2005, 15:10   #9
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Re: How many days?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belgarath The Sorcerer
Maybe it's time it got written down then.
it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to write it down given the only important phrase would be"The Queen in Parliament is Sovereign".
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Unread 7 Nov 2005, 15:22   #10
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Re: How many days?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belgarath The Sorcerer
And to answer Deepflow's question: If groups of people want to plot to commit terrible acts of violence against innocent people on such scales like 9/11 and 7/7 et al, then i believe that they are effectively giving up their human rights.
Unless terrorism in this country manages to kill more than 0.00001% of the population im willing to take the risk
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Unread 7 Nov 2005, 15:22   #11
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Re: How many days?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaio
Is Tony Blair Satan in disguise ?
No, that's Cliff Richard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaio
and would this make Charles Kennedy Jesus Christ reincarneted ?
No, just a recovering alcoholic.
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Unread 7 Nov 2005, 15:30   #12
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Re: How many days?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belgarath The Sorcerer
It violates the Human Rights Act 1998 (which is based on the European Convention on Human Rights, which itself is based on the Universal Declaration of Human Rights), specifically:
Article 5, sections 3 and 4.
We don't care much for the EUROPEAN Convention on Human Rights. Who are they to tell us we can't send people to foreign countries to be tortured?


Edit: I thought this was going to be a sweepstakes on how long the French riots would continue.
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Unread 7 Nov 2005, 15:39   #13
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Re: How many days?

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
We don't care much for the EUROPEAN Convention on Human Rights. Who are they to tell us we can't send people to foreign countries to be tortured?
Given that the UK's Human Rights Act is wholey based on the European Convention on Human Rights, I find your statement flawed and misinformed.
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Unread 7 Nov 2005, 15:40   #14
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Re: How many days?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
it wouldn't make a blind bit of difference to write it down given the only important phrase would be"The Queen in Parliament is Sovereign".
This then begs the question: Do we really need a monarchy in this day and age?
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Unread 7 Nov 2005, 15:42   #15
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Re: How many days?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belgarath The Sorcerer
Given that the UK's Human Rights Act is wholey based on the European Convention on Human Rights, I find your statement flawed and misinformed.
Seeing as Labour are doing the torture thing and the tories want to withdraw us from the convention altogether I feel my statement fine.
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Unread 7 Nov 2005, 15:49   #16
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Re: How many days?

Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
We don't care much for the EUROPEAN Convention on Human Rights. Who are they to tell us we can't send people to foreign countries to be tortured?
.
which nation's civil servants do you think drafted the bloody thing in the 50's?
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Unread 7 Nov 2005, 15:50   #17
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Re: How many days?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belgarath The Sorcerer
This then begs the question: Do we really need a monarchy in this day and age?
I don't see how it does.
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Unread 7 Nov 2005, 15:52   #18
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Re: How many days?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
which nation's civil servants do you think drafted the bloody thing in the 50's?
What's that got to with anything?
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Unread 7 Nov 2005, 16:44   #19
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Re: How many days?

24 hours anything longer than that is againt human rights and i dont care what these people plan to do.

If they commit a crime then lock them up and throw away the key (or more likley tag and release them) but unless you can prove they have done somthing wrong they should be free

Innocent untill proven guilty u cant just lock people up for a few months till you decide if their innocent or guilty even if it is to 'protect the country'

Every man women and child has basic human rights if you start to take them away what will be next, Freedom of speech, mabey we wont be able to say anything against the goverment or it will be taken as a terrorist act and we will be locked up for 3 months without trial.

I would rather see 10,000 people dead than for us to lose our human rights that many many 10s of thousands have fought and died to protect
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Unread 7 Nov 2005, 17:00   #20
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Exclamation Re: How many days?

Blair makes me physically sick. He'd boil his baby down for glue if he thought it would enhance his poll ratings. I hope he ****s-up big time and we have something akain to the Poll Tax riots, and he has to resign in ignimony and disgrace.
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Unread 7 Nov 2005, 21:56   #21
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Re: How many days?

In California, the police must charge a person with a crime upon arrest. The prosecution then has 48 hours in which to file formal charges and bring the accused before a magistrate. 90 days seems excessive.
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Unread 7 Nov 2005, 22:24   #22
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Re: How many days?

If the Police had actually managed to show any competance at all then I wouldn't have any problem with 90 days but as so far all they have managed to do is shoot some Brazilian guy, trashed a flat looking for Ricin that wasn't there, arrested a few muslim lads who had probably done nothing worse than drop a bag on the floor and generally buggered about while claiming all sorts of successes.

I fear that if they do actually manage to arrest a terrorist it will be down to just bloody good luck than any real detective work and the majority of people that would be held for 90 days will be very very annoyed and very very innocent of whatever the police have decided they have done.

It would be very nice if at least one of the opposition parties could maybe have a decent leader by the time of the next election, I don't think druggy boy, the ginger alcoholic or Mr 'I came from a council estate and had a single mother' (haven't we all ? - fnar fnar) SAS man will be enough to stop more years of Blair.
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Unread 7 Nov 2005, 23:07   #23
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Re: How many days?

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Originally Posted by Vaio
It would be very nice if at least one of the opposition parties could maybe have a decent leader by the time of the next election, I don't think druggy boy, the ginger alcoholic or Mr 'I came from a council estate and had a single mother' (haven't we all ? - fnar fnar) SAS man will be enough to stop more years of Blair.
Well unless something truly bizarre happens, Blair will be gone, especially as his position is so weak right now.

Also, I think drug boy would be a good leader, but time will tell.
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Unread 8 Nov 2005, 19:08   #24
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Re: How many days?

This topic should have more discussion, but there isn't anyone defending it to make it happen

Does anyone here actually think it's a good idea?
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Unread 8 Nov 2005, 19:21   #25
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Re: How many days?

I do Ste, but then again i'd have people locked up for 90 days for calling me whilst i'm eating.
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Unread 8 Nov 2005, 19:59   #26
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Re: How many days?

so why do you?
A lot of the reason people are for it is because they just like the sound of it.
"we need to lock up terrorists for 90 days to save lives" blah blah blah.

The fact that the rest of the legislation is being largely ignored by the media is quite frustrating too.
"glorifying terrorism" "encouraging or training terrorists" and "supplying materials that could be used in terrorism" are all offences without requiring proof of intent.
So goodbye Chemistry, Guy Fawkes night and libraries.

I've just had a thought though, could we arrest Tony Blair for encouraging terrorists?

Also, someone somewhere mentioned something about having to apply to a judge to hold a suspect for longer than 7 days and reapply every 7 days... does anyone know the details about this?
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Unread 8 Nov 2005, 20:07   #27
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Re: How many days?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
Also, someone somewhere mentioned something about having to apply to a judge to hold a suspect for longer than 7 days and reapply every 7 days... does anyone know the details about this?
part of the proposal is judicial review every 7 days.

It's not entirely clear what level of court this will entail (nothing will really be known until the vote tomorrow).

I am sceptical of the scope of such judicial review. I am also sceptical of how a court could release a suspect when the police will be swearing under oath that they still believe he is a terrorist threat. the only evidence available to the court will be from the police. If the police didn't still suspect he was a terrorist then presumably they would have already released him. so every 7 day review will only occur because the police want to continue detaining the suspect.

Also they're going to have to modify legal aid laws because as things stand the suspect wouldn't get a free lawyer and I can't imagine these people are going to be rich enough (also it does seem like an extra kick in the teeth to say "i'm going to detain you for 90 days, i have no evidence against you, i'm not charging you with a crime, oh and by the way IF you do want to try and get out of this cell then you'll have to pay for your own lawyer")
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Unread 8 Nov 2005, 20:12   #28
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Re: How many days?

The current Home Secretary and his predecessor have greatly advanced the argument for having a written constitution, in the hope it might stop idiots such as themselves from pushing through shit legislation.
Frankly, it's about time we updated the Magna Carta anyway.
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Unread 8 Nov 2005, 20:15   #29
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Re: How many days?

a written constitution would be unconstitutional.

I know it's very difficult for non lawyers to understand why britain doesn't have a written constitution. but honestly it would make a blind bit of difference.
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Unread 8 Nov 2005, 20:18   #30
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Re: How many days?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
a written constitution would be unconstitutional.

I know it's very difficult for non lawyers to understand why britain doesn't have a written constitution. but honestly it would make a blind bit of difference.
Actually they taught us all about it in A level politics, those were the boring lessons
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Unread 8 Nov 2005, 20:46   #31
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Re: How many days?

Quote:
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Actually they taught us all about it in A level politics, those were the boring lessons
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Unread 9 Nov 2005, 07:41   #32
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Re: How many days?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
part of the proposal is judicial review every 7 days.

It's not entirely clear what level of court this will entail (nothing will really be known until the vote tomorrow).

I am sceptical of the scope of such judicial review. I am also sceptical of how a court could release a suspect when the police will be swearing under oath that they still believe he is a terrorist threat. the only evidence available to the court will be from the police. If the police didn't still suspect he was a terrorist then presumably they would have already released him. so every 7 day review will only occur because the police want to continue detaining the suspect.

Also they're going to have to modify legal aid laws because as things stand the suspect wouldn't get a free lawyer and I can't imagine these people are going to be rich enough (also it does seem like an extra kick in the teeth to say "i'm going to detain you for 90 days, i have no evidence against you, i'm not charging you with a crime, oh and by the way IF you do want to try and get out of this cell then you'll have to pay for your own lawyer")

Doesn't the European Constitution make noises about legal representation for everyone ? I'm not trying to pick holes in your arguement, i'm just trying to get my head round Blair dragging us into the European Superstate while picking and choosing which European rules to abide by.
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Unread 9 Nov 2005, 09:05   #33
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Re: How many days?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaio
It would be very nice if at least one of the opposition parties could maybe have a decent leader by the time of the next election, I don't think druggy boy, the ginger alcoholic or Mr 'I came from a council estate and had a single mother' (haven't we all ? - fnar fnar) SAS man will be enough to stop more years of Blair.
It remains fairly likely that Blair won't be in charge next time round - if only due to opposition within his own party.
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Unread 9 Nov 2005, 14:11   #34
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Re: How many days?

well chaps, tonight we have the vote.

a special program on it is on bbc2 at 4:30

predictions?

im going to be optimistic and go for "fail by 2".
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Unread 9 Nov 2005, 14:30   #35
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Re: How many days?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
Unless terrorism in this country manages to kill more than 0.00001% of the population im willing to take the risk
Some way to go yet then, they only managed 0.00000093% on July 7. Which makes me think this whole response might be just a tad disproportionate.

Unfortunately I'm pretty certain this is going to pass, my guess would be by about 15 votes. Though as Charles Kennedy said in PMQ's, hopefully the Lords should put up a bit of resistance.
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Unread 9 Nov 2005, 14:50   #36
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Re: How many days?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nondescript Human
Some way to go yet then, they only managed 0.00000093% on July 7. Which makes me think this whole response might be just a tad disproportionate.

Unfortunately I'm pretty certain this is going to pass, my guess would be by about 15 votes. Though as Charles Kennedy said in PMQ's, hopefully the Lords should put up a bit of resistance.
i saw that clip on the news but didnt see the answer the PM made. Can i assume he just avoided the question?
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Unread 9 Nov 2005, 16:54   #37
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Re: How many days?

Yep, that's exactly what he did. Though not quite as blatantly as when Howard twice pressed him to give a single example of the police even needing 90 days and he just completely ignored him and repeated the same arguments he has already made a thousand times.

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Unread 9 Nov 2005, 18:01   #38
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Re: How many days?

291 to 322

the motion is defeated
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Unread 9 Nov 2005, 18:02   #39
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Re: How many days?

excellent
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Unread 9 Nov 2005, 18:03   #40
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Re: How many days?

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
291 to 322

the motion is defeated
oh fantastic, some interesting politics at last.
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Unread 9 Nov 2005, 18:07   #41
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Re: How many days?

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Originally Posted by Deepflow
oh fantastic, some interesting politics at last.
Even more so, because according to the bbc, it's going to weaken blair even more.
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Unread 9 Nov 2005, 18:08   #42
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Re: How many days?

To bad, I was looking forward to having riots break out in the UK as well.

:P
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Unread 9 Nov 2005, 18:10   #43
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Re: How many days?

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Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3
Even more so, because according to the bbc, it's going to weaken blair even more.
it's difficult to see how this wouldn't weaken him.

he personally supported this motion, it was obvious that he personally ordered charles clarke not to compromise and it was him who made petulant speeches over dramatising the so called 'need' for 90 days.
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Unread 9 Nov 2005, 18:15   #44
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Re: How many days?

True.

If only it had been defeated more resoundingly.

I'm still concerned that a government can even consider such a thing to people who haven't been charged with any crime.
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Unread 9 Nov 2005, 18:21   #45
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Re: How many days?

frankly i think the way they've gone about this whole thing is absurd.

there was already a 14-day detention without trial period - anything beyond 4 or 5 days obviously means they're being held while police work out exactly what they've done. if the police think 90 days is how long they need, then it would be insane to agree with the principle that in exceptional circumstances people can be detained for extended periods without trial, and then set the precise deadline at something considered useless by the people affected by it.

there's no real moral distinction, to my mind, between 14 days and 90, and certainly none between 60 and 90. I'd rather the limit was at 72 hours or such, but if they must insist on this extended detention period, they might as well make it a useful one.
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Unread 9 Nov 2005, 18:40   #46
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Re: How many days?

They've just passed the 28 day detention though...

Which is still too long in my eyes.
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Unread 9 Nov 2005, 18:49   #47
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Re: How many days?

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They've just passed the 28 day detention though...

Which is still too long in my eyes.
i was about to say that too
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Unread 9 Nov 2005, 18:58   #48
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Re: How many days?

That's what the lords is for!

Huzzah!

also, this has weakened tony, and once he's gone i dont think gordon brown is going to be as bothered with stuff like this. Or at least i hope so.
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Unread 9 Nov 2005, 19:50   #49
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Re: How many days?

[BLATANT TROLL RESPONSE]

Island barbarians. Thank goodness for American justice.
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Unread 9 Nov 2005, 20:34   #50
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Re: How many days?

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[BLATANT TROLL RESPONSE]

Island barbarians. Thank goodness for American justice.
ITT, an american uses Irony
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