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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 02:10   #1
s|k
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Lightbulb I'm thinking about becoming vegan

So for all you angst ridden angry anti-'touchy feely' people who like to slam vegan and vegeterian lifestyles here's your chance.

Basically I stopped eating Beef and Pork last June, for weight issues, and then because of family pressure I ate some beef on christmas day and was sick the next day. But that's not why. I've been reading this site: http://www.peta.org/ and somewhere about when I was reading about how chickens have their beaks burned of with a hot metal rod and etc I almost lost my stomach and then I also saw a chicken ranch on television and how they butcher chickens, and how they live and I just honestly I can't deal with it anymore. I don't think I could eat any chicken right now if I was forced to, that's how sick I am. On the other end of it, I've known that it's more energy efficient to not eat meat because of the calorie loss that happens - there's that 10% rate that occurs during energy transfer - Jarkiri may know better than me. Basically of the 100% energy the Sun radiates on plants 10% of the calories are absorbed, then of the animals that eat these plants, they in turn absorb 10% of the calories the plants 'store', then carnivores eat the herbivores, and they in turn absorb 10% of the herbivore's calories. Or something like that, I remember it from Anthropological ecology course. So it's more energy efficient to just eat vegetarian, then isn't it? But I don't really care about this issue enough to actually make me want to change my diet.

My concerns are: health - I don't believe it's healthy to be a vegetarian. Is that true? My other concern is my wife, how will she react? Will she be supportive in the long run or get tired of me? I don't care about reactionary types accusing me of over empathizing with animals and anthropomorphizing them. That argument holds little sway with me, anyone who's been around animals long enough knows they feel both physical and emotional pain (and pleasure).
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 02:28   #2
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
there's that 10% rate that occurs during energy transfer - Jarkiri may know better than me. Basically of the 100% energy the Sun radiates on plants 10% of the calories are absorbed, then of the animals that eat these plants, they in turn absorb 10% of the calories the plants 'store', then carnivores eat the herbivores, and they in turn absorb 10% of the herbivore's calories.
I think it goes like this:
Of the energy a plant absorbs from the sun, 90% of it is used by the time it is eaten by an animal. The animal then uses 90% of this energy and it's predator takes the remaining 10% (1% of the energy initially absorbed by the plant).
The energy is used mainly on metabolic processes etc.

The thing is, animals are likely to eat more than 10 plants in a day so they'll get as more energy than the plant has, so eating the animal would pretty much be the same as eating the plant.


Edit: Also, I'm not sure what the difference between a vegan and a vegetarian is - can someone please elaborate?
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 02:33   #3
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
I've been reading this site: http://www.peta.org/ and somewhere about when I was reading about how chickens have their beaks burned of with a hot metal rod and etc I almost lost my stomach and then I also saw a chicken ranch on television and how they butcher chickens, and how they live and I just honestly I can't deal with it anymore. I don't think I could eat any chicken right now if I was forced to, that's how sick I am.
You do realise that you can eat free-range chickens or more generally organically grown food?
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 02:44   #4
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

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Originally Posted by _Kila_
Edit: Also, I'm not sure what the difference between a vegan and a vegetarian is - can someone please elaborate?
Vegans don't eat any animal products, including eggs, dairy, and gumshoe, which is in just about everything.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 02:45   #5
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
You do realise that you can eat free-range chickens or more generally organically grown food?
How do I buy a free-range chicken? I have to research this.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 02:46   #6
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

You need to take B12 vitamins, thats your main concern.

Or you could just eat meat one day per week, one day with fish and the rest vegan. Then you would be safe and healthy.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 02:50   #7
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

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Originally Posted by s|k
How do I buy a free-range chicken? I have to research this.
If you care loads and loads and loads I'd advise some specific research for some sort of voluntary organisation holding itself to higher standards than the US defined "free range" life.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 03:51   #8
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

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Originally Posted by s|k
So for all you angst ridden angry anti-'touchy feely' people who like to slam vegan and vegeterian lifestyles here's your chance.
Before you make any decisions, bear in mind that PETA are a hypocritical, insane (I really have no other words for it) organisation. The view having pets on the same level as eating animals, they put down a significantly higher number of animals given to their shelters than other local concerns and they're very closely linked to so called "animal rights" terrorism.

Furthermore, the "cow only gets a certain percentage of the plant, why not eat the plant!" arguments are disingenious at best, because a significant amount of the plant's energy reserves are locked up in chemical structures that humans cannot digest.

Oh, and in terms of environmental impact and general health, the market for fruit and vegetables for human consumption has if anything been more damaging to the environment than that of meat, due to the high use of various chemical produce and the abandonment of the nitrogen fixing cycles of yore. Then there's the tendency to create enormous monocultures (see: bananas) and the fact that so-called "organic" food has gone too far the other way, in many cases being worse for the consumer than the chemicallyed nonsense.

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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 04:15   #9
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

Is the significant amount over 90%? Because unless it is that argument still holds some water, albeit not as much as it does in its uncorrected form.

Responding to s|k's actual questions, I'm sure the necessary vitamins and minerals can be found elsewhere, probably a decent sort of vegan website would be best to find this out on. I know many couples of various age groups and either genders where one is a vegetarian and the other isn't without me seeing anything that clearly says "being a vegetarian when your partner isn't is bad for the relationship". Finally a vegetarian refrains from eating meat (this is an ill-defined area, some vegetarians I met would eat chicken, although in these cases they all just dislike red meat, or fish) while a vegan, in the strictest sense does not use, in any fashion, anything that comes from an animal. Of course the rotting matter of dead animals is reintroduced into plant life eventually so I'm unsure at what point this becomes okay.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 04:23   #10
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

That's your fiber content. Depends what you eat.

And what the cows eat, of course. We wouldn't get very far eating grass, for a rather purile argument.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 06:20   #11
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

It's possible to find local farms that will breed much higher quality stock, that will taste better, under humane conditions. You'll just have to pay for it - ask a local butcher. Free range eggs as seen in supermarkets are a bit misleading as the conditions are basically the same as barn eggs except with an outside area of some description.

PETA I must say is an organisation with more double standards than the Labour government and has been known to support terrorist activities against organisations they don't agree with.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 08:48   #12
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
You need to take B12 vitamins, thats your main concern.

Or you could just eat meat one day per week, one day with fish and the rest vegan. Then you would be safe and healthy.
Actually he has 2 far bigger problems:

1) Vitamin D is only obtained from animal sources (the level produced by sunlight on his skin being too little to sustain him)

oh and

2) He's a nutter.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 09:48   #13
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Is the significant amount over 90%? Because unless it is that argument still holds some water, albeit not as much as it does in its uncorrected form.
.
The argument makes no sense at all - are we trying to conserve the sun's energy or something? Why would you possibly care if eating animals meant that 50%, 500% or even 500000% more sunlight got wasted - its not like we're going to run out of it any time in the next billion years

If you wanted to combine agendas and make some enviornanimalist argument then youd have to consider the ratio of energy used to extract food to the energy produced in consumption. The perentage of the sun's energy involved is totally irrelevant regardless of the angle youre looking at things from, because the sun's energy is essentially infinite.

Last edited by Nodrog; 14 Feb 2007 at 10:02.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 10:04   #14
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

The issue isn't energy loss, it's that a meat-rich diet takes a lot more water / land / other resources to produce the same end result. I don't see a vegan diet as the way forward (as stated, you end up having to take supplements to stay healthy anyway) but we could probably all cut down on the amount of meat we consume. I suspect McDonalds being removed from existence would be good for everyone in the long run.

If you're seriously considering not eating meat because of something you read about happening to chickens then just go kill yourself right now, the galaxy doesn't need someone like you in in it.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 10:04   #15
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

I can't really offer strong arguments in favor of vegetarian, but I can say I'm the living evidence that vegetarians can be very healthy.
I rarely get sick, have alot of energy, my blood results always come back excellent (no lack of iron or any other vitamins, awesome cholesterol level, etc) and I haven't eaten any meat for about 12 years now.
I do eat fish (although rarely, mostly shrimps etc), cheese, eggs, etc. though.
Also, my motivation for not eating meat isn't because I feel sorry for the animals, but I just never liked the taste of meat.
Except for fastfood ofcourse, but how much meat is inthere anyway. I've given that up aswell so I can say I'm a healthy person though.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 10:08   #16
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

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Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
The issue isn't energy loss, it's that a meat-rich diet takes a lot more water / land / other resources to produce the same end result..
But the set of people who care about issues like this and the set of people who dislike large-scale corporate farming which uses land more efficiently tend to intersect significantly.

I would imagine that 10000 free-range chickens require significantly more land than 10000 battery chickens, for example.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 10:59   #17
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

s|k, I'd also suggest to visit farms near you and have a look at how they run things. Just buy stuff from there if you find they treat the animals OK.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 11:06   #18
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
The issue isn't energy loss, it's that a meat-rich diet takes a lot more water / land / other resources to produce the same end result. I don't see a vegan diet as the way forward (as stated, you end up having to take supplements to stay healthy anyway) but we could probably all cut down on the amount of meat we consume. I suspect McDonalds being removed from existence would be good for everyone in the long run.

If you're seriously considering not eating meat because of something you read about happening to chickens then just go kill yourself right now, the galaxy doesn't need someone like you in in it.
I'm glad someone cleared that up because I was seriously starting to think you people were insane. I was being led to believe that people had forgotten basic biological chemistry in which last I checked other than Vitamin D the sun has no direct effect on the chemistry of our body much less how we metabolise food.

That does not make your statement any less astounding. Trying to relate humans to energy efficiancy like we were an appliance is ludacrous. Next we will be labelling the populace with energy star efficiency ratings. Heck lets just sleep for 100% of the day since we'll be consuming far less energy in that way and we can all dream in the meanwhile of a utopian eco-friendly environment.... moronic!
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 12:53   #19
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

I somehow find the idea of having a crisis of conscience about your food very very funny.

s|k you could try free range as jbg says or even rear your own chickens/animals. Theres nothing wrong with finding certain foods repulsive it is after all a matter of taste. From what you've said though im confused about whether you dislike the taste of meat or don't like how the meat is treated. You do realise a vegan lifestyle also means giving up dairy products and eggs? Out of curiosity how do you juxtapose the pain and discomfort dairy cows feel when they haven't been milked with your veganism??
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 13:06   #20
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Out of curiosity how do you juxtapose the pain and discomfort dairy cows feel when they haven't been milked with your veganism??
By wishing they were instead raising their calves?
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 13:51   #21
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
If you're seriously considering not eating meat because of something you read about happening to chickens then just go kill yourself right now, the galaxy doesn't need someone like you in in it.
What, you mean someone with concience, morals and care for other creatures on this earth? No we dont need more people like that at all!
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 13:55   #22
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
The argument makes no sense at all - are we trying to conserve the sun's energy or something? Why would you possibly care if eating animals meant that 50%, 500% or even 500000% more sunlight got wasted - its not like we're going to run out of it any time in the next billion years

If you wanted to combine agendas and make some enviornanimalist argument then youd have to consider the ratio of energy used to extract food to the energy produced in consumption. The perentage of the sun's energy involved is totally irrelevant regardless of the angle youre looking at things from, because the sun's energy is essentially infinite.
As dante says it's about resource usage. Currently it's still very practical because all those Africans are starving anyways. While I'm sure we all find environmentalism funny if nobody ever gave a thought to ensuring we have some renewable resources we'd probably be living in a pretty shit world right about now.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 13:57   #23
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

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Originally Posted by CrashTester
What, you mean someone with concience, morals and care for other creatures on this earth? No we dont need more people like that at all!
More like con-science am i rite lol.







Edit: it would have ****ing helped if you'd spelt it correctly.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 13:59   #24
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

A few years ago after i was violently sick for no reason (just like you) after eating meat (mince i think it was) i went vegetarian for a month. It was alright for a while but the problem is you are ALWAYS hungry because theres absolutely nothing substantial in your stomach. You have to eat incredibly often. The other problem is the amount of meals you cant have anymore is just depressing - christmas turkey, steak, spaghetti bolognese, enchiladas, chilli con carne, etc etc etc etc. And most of the vege-alternatives are pretty rubbish.


The one positive ill say about vegetarianism is that on average, vegetarians are better cooks than us meat eaters - but thats only out of neccessity. My vege-lesbo-feminist-hippy flatmate is an amazing cook, but im sure she'd be an even better cook if she was allowed to use chicken instead of 'quorn style pieces' every now and again.


A final thought. If you went vegetarian you wouldnt be able to eat :

Lea n Perrins
Haribo Gummybears <3
Jell-o
Doritos Crisps

And many more suprising things. Hardly worth it. And if you went vegan? Good luck fighting off the 24h cheese craving that we humans (and britons especially :/) seem to have built into our system
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 13:59   #25
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

Ok well 1st off .. organic actually tastes better, yer i know that sounds like a load of bull .. but try it.
pick up 2 types of fruit or veg from your local supermarket, then the same type from somewhere that does organic.. cook/peel etc and compare.

This works especially with eggs, try a cheap value egg and a corn fed vegetarion chicken egg.

You will be amazed.


Did you know that all the preservatives in our bodies from our diet has lengthened the amount of time we dont go into rigamortis when we die.

As for what farms do to animals, yes i agree its horrendous, but we as [people have to stop eating meat produced that way, if we do then it will become more poular to treat animals in a more correct way for profit reasons for theese people.
The only way to stop them is hit them where it hurts ... in the wallet.


Look at the history of free range eggs for an example.

You dont have to be vegetarion, but you can have a concience.

Quote:
By wishing they were instead raising their calves?
Unfortunately .. cows have been bred to produce way too much milk for 1 calf, it would be sheer cruelty to stop the milking process, however it can be done so it doesnt hurt or distress them.

Also most sheep and cows cannot give birth without help, most would die in labour now

I think pigs are ok .. but i'm not sure, i've not heard anything about it apart from the factorys that dont let them run wild and feed them too much to get more pork off them.

So basically, go Organic and cruelty free and you can eat what you want, and not feel a little guilty.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 14:06   #26
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
By wishing they were instead raising their calves?

There aren't (afaik) any wild dairy cows in existence, we've domesticated the beasts. I'm curious how people against the exploitation of animals juxtapose 'non interference' with animals with the existence of animals who have an intimate relationship with man. IIRC dairy cows are basically food machines and produce 'more' than their calfs would ever need - this is probably a result of constant selective breeding. If they only produced enough for their calfs it would be impossible for farmers to rear new cows and produce milk for sale. Basically from what i know cows produce an excess of milk that is re-absorbed (with some discomfort) if not used by man or calves.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 14:15   #27
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

BTW .. i dont eat much meat, i cant, it makes me feel lethargic, and thoroughly ill, my body cant handle too much of whatever is in it.
But i do like it, i just make sure its the best quality as its my treat.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 14:35   #28
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
There aren't (afaik) any wild dairy cows in existence, we've domesticated the beasts. I'm curious how people against the exploitation of animals juxtapose 'non interference' with animals with the existence of animals who have an intimate relationship with man. IIRC dairy cows are basically food machines and produce 'more' than their calfs would ever need - this is probably a result of constant selective breeding.
Proof that all milk comes from genetically engineered cows. Let's hope the public don't find out.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 15:02   #29
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
would you find it funny if s|k were required to kill the animal before he could eat it?
If the animal was big bird. Yes. Yes i would.


Quote:
i find it about as funny as someone who gives £2:50 a month to oxfam.
You keep equating black people with animals
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 15:09   #30
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
imagine if there are some alienz, right now hovering within megamissile distance above us whose only reason not to wipe us all out is because they don't indulge the same arrogant "speciesism" as you. man, that would be pretty wack wouldn't it.



I'm unsure what point you're trying to make, but if we presented some kind of threat to the aliens why shouldn't they kill us? If the situation was reversed id happily slaughter the lot. Thought processes that believe all life is inherently valuable are odd. Are you against wiping out AIDS? allowing for the fact that its a highly adaptable lifeform why make the presumption that it isn't a highly developed civilisation that is simply beyond us?


edit We're nothing to the aliens, but AIDS is nothing to us.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 15:14   #31
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

Every single time ive read the wiki entry on big bird its been vandalised. Noone likes big bird.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 16:05   #32
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

We should try and breed a tree that screams when it's cut down. That'd be just freaking awesome.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 16:43   #33
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Every single time ive read the wiki entry on big bird its been vandalised. Noone likes big bird.
I wet myself reading it just now, the phrase "Big Bird is a full-body Faggot" is almost poetic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
I've been reading this site: http://www.peta.org/
That was a pretty fundamental error.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 17:09   #34
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
I'm unsure what point you're trying to make, but if we presented some kind of threat to the aliens why shouldn't they kill us? If the situation was reversed id happily slaughter the lot. Thought processes that believe all life is inherently valuable are odd. Are you against wiping out AIDS? allowing for the fact that its a highly adaptable lifeform why make the presumption that it isn't a highly developed civilisation that is simply beyond us?


edit We're nothing to the aliens, but AIDS is nothing to us.
Along with the fact we'd be competing for resources with them, in which case they'd kill us. Brings up the whole Matrix illogical thing again.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 19:38   #35
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

TADPOLES! Tadpoles is a winner!
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 19:47   #36
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

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Originally Posted by s|k
My other concern is my wife, how will she react? Will she be supportive in the long run or get tired of me?
Unless you have managed to disguise yourself from your wife (as to personality) it is unlikely that she would somehow decide to get rid of you over your diet. What if you become so vegan that you can't stand the thought of your wife eating a Big Mac? Will you dump her? One is about as likely as the other.

Eat what you want. If it all happens to be vegetable matter, so what?
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 19:59   #37
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

I know plenty of vegetarians and vegans who seem perfectly healthy. There's the B12 issue, but you can get that from tablets or special vegan food with it added. And you can get enough Vitamin D from the sun apparently:

Quote:
Originally Posted by some vegan society whom I'm not liking to as I've closed that tab
The most significant supply of vitamin D (for omnivores as well as vegans) comes from the action of ultra-violet B light on sterols in the skin. Most people, including infants require little or no extra from food when regularly exposed to sunlight when the sun is high in the sky. Bright sunlight is not necessary; even the sky shine on a cloudy summer day will stimulate formation of some D in the skin, while a short summer holiday in the open air will increase blood levels of the vitamin by two or three times the amount.
I rarely eat meat mainly due to my mistrust of the National Farmer's Union and companies that deal with meat manufacture - birdseye's recent behaviour vindicates my belief as far as I'm concerned. I buy organic eggs and don't drink much milk. I personally can't see the benefit of becoming a vegan; i'm not militant PETA member.

In social situations you'll just have to tell them what you can and cannot eat. It's probably quite a pain in the arse, but if you really care about the cute little bunnies enough I'm sure it won't be an issue.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 20:37   #38
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

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Originally Posted by Hebdomad
And you can get enough Vitamin D from the sun apparently
Some individuals can, many however can't. Rickets is still a significant problem for people with lactose intolerance, let alone those who refuse to drink it voluntarily.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 20:52   #39
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

some time ago we celebrated my uncle's 50th anniversary. we went to some hippy restaurant that looked like a jungle. they only served vegetarian food. i tried tofu there. it didn't really look like anything, smell like anything or taste like anything. unlike chicken.
i don't care how soja beans etc can replace meat by also providing vitamins/minerals and all that, it can't replace the taste. good (tasty) food is for me personally one of the things i can enjoy intensely. therefore i'll never ever become vegetarian/vegan.

(and chickens are so small because that way we can keep many of them in small areas).
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 21:23   #40
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

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Originally Posted by s|k
I've been reading this site: peta.org and somewhere about when I was reading about how chickens have their beaks burned of with a hot metal rod and etc I almost lost my stomach and then I also saw a chicken ranch on television and how they butcher chickens, and how they live and I just honestly I can't deal with it anymore. I don't think I could eat any chicken right now if I was forced to, that's how sick I am.


The REAL reason s|k doesn't want to eat chicken any more is because he recently sucked another guy's dick and discovered it was fowl!
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 22:03   #41
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

Virii are people too man, don't get caught up in your silly classism.






It really doesn't have the same ring as speciesm does it?
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 22:14   #42
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

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Originally Posted by horn
coz u

.
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 22:27   #43
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

your first mistake is ofc reading and/or believing anything that PETA have anything to do with.


you can be a vegan without any health problems, but you do have to know what you are doing, a steady diet of rice (for example) is just going to **** you up. Luckily, there are plenty of the right foods around now that let you make that lifestyle choice without having to live on (pretty inedible) manufactured nowadays.
I personally wouldn't give up meat, most of mine if from local butchers (or my father in law's herd of highland cattle, they really do make the best steaks) and i would reccomend trying this route before giving up meat entirely. Especially with beef and chicken, the difference in texture and flavour is overwhelming
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Unread 14 Feb 2007, 22:34   #44
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
which is why they probably won't be requesting your presence in any of their think tank debates. the point i'm trying to make is that humanity is not the apex of existence.
Noone claimed it to be?!?!!?



Quote:
as in it's a conscious being that just doesn't communicate the way we do? well i wouldn't say i am 100% sure. just sure enough to hold ockham's razor in my hand and march on like the courageous trooper that i am.
So you be as sure as you want about your viruses and we'll be as sure as we want about chickens and cows and everyone is happy!!!

Quote:
i'm not sure all valuation of "life" is so relative to how evolved/intelligent/etc the "higher" race is. simply because something is "below" you, it doesn't mean it has to be worth nothing. aliens may have some higher cognitive abilities than us but that doesn't necessarily mean they would consider our ability to feel pain as completely irrelevant

Your near obsession with pain is baffling.
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Unread 15 Feb 2007, 12:47   #45
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

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Originally Posted by horn
so why don't you hold such callous views towards other humans?

I have no problem with cannibalism, why do you hold such callous views towards lifeforms you consider to be insignificant?

Quote:
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this is the problem with getting into 'debate' with you

Are you against wiping out AIDS? allowing for the fact that its a highly adaptable lifeform why make the presumption that it isn't a highly developed civilisation that is simply beyond us?

as in it's a conscious being that just doesn't communicate the way we do? well i wouldn't say i am 100% sure. just sure enough to hold ockham's razor in my hand and march on like the courageous trooper that i am.

So you be as sure as you want about your viruses and we'll be as sure as we want about chickens and cows and everyone is happy!!!

travler appreciates your camaraderie




yeah well stalin appreciates you, the point was, what?


Quote:
yeah i know, no matter what i do i just don't like causing pain.
it's completely bizzare!

It's an inevitable part of life get over it.
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Unread 15 Feb 2007, 13:16   #46
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

milo i have to say that was probably the worst post I've read on GD for months
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Unread 15 Feb 2007, 17:02   #47
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
imagine if there are some alienz, right now hovering within megamissile distance above us whose only reason not to wipe us all out is because they don't indulge the same arrogant "speciesism" as you.
OK, I've imagined that. Now what?

edit : Although as I've said many times before, it's not actually an issue of speciesism as such.
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Unread 15 Feb 2007, 17:30   #48
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
the reason i would advocate "callous" action towards other "lifeforms" is because not all life is the same. for instance, if a particular lifeform isn't self aware nor can it feel pain then i'm not going to have a huge problem "killing" it.
I think a lot of the problem here is we don't think about pain in the same way. Certainly I dislike your point over self-awareness given the fact that animals don't recognise themselves in mirrors and so on (I think dolphins, elephants and some apes can so if you want to restrict cruelty to these animals in the name of respecting self-awareness I don't think I'd object too much). However to return to the issue of "pain" you mentioned I think we have to understand that sometimes we may really be taking about different things. I mean I'm sure we can develop an appropriately anthropomorphic computer program which reacts to certain stimuli as if in pain but would we really say that it is in pain? Does "pain" just involve reacting in a certain way? Equally if we injected chickens with large doses of <inserteuphoriacausingdrughere> before doing anything which without those drugs would cause pain would we still be doing anything wrong? They're certainly not experiencing pain then but I doubt PETA would be over the moon about it.
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Unread 15 Feb 2007, 23:41   #49
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

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Originally Posted by Phang
milo i have to say that was probably the worst post I've read on GD for months



How about in the set of all lifeforms, if all elements (ie species) are held to be 'equal' then there is no 'wrongness' in any species acting on any other. If on the other hand we rank those elements according to preference then we form that ranking arbitarily, and it would be perfectly valid to have any ranking.

Either horn applies his philosophy to all life or to some life. If the former he must stop abusing cockroaches and bacteria. If the latter then i say his order of preference is no more valid than mine.
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Unread 16 Feb 2007, 02:14   #50
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Re: I'm thinking about becoming vegan

That's not necessarily the case, his definition of "pain" could include, say, a brain - which would restrict it to the areas he's presumeably talking about in one fell swoop.
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