Speedgame etc stat changes

[Appocomaster]

As there's still a few days until the speedgame and the stats for last round weren't quite balanced, I'm willing to change stats slightly.

A few people have suggested just making the vsh and tzen init the same, and the viper perhaps weaker, but I'm worried that'll make xan unstoppable. To strengthen Terran and still solving the issue of the Tzen, we could change the Bomber from Fr targetting De to Co targetting Fr.


Edit: As said lower down, vsh init is now 4 and marauder damage is changed from 95 to 85

[Brug]

I agree with with the Bomber and the vsh/tzen init changes.

But make the viper weaker? That would really make Xan unstoppable.

[Shyne]

Vipers are quite strong, and with the wealth of support planets we're bound to see in the speeder, it might be ok to reduce their damage by a few points.

[Phil^]

you'd have to carefully balance the measures taken so they dont flip the scale the other way and make xan useless.
imo, the vsh,tzen init change wouldnt be sufficient to let other xans keep each other in check since it becomes extremely costly for xans to hit each other.
very messy combats xan on xan :S

they'll only avoid doing so without cathaar backup and it all but rules them out of defence without extreme numbers - same as last round
in essence, it makes cathaar the race of choice for attacking and defending them.

you could drop the armour of xan frigs another few percent perhaps, increase the damage done by the tzen, and make the viper a frigate to prevent it being used in out of gal, out of alliance defence.
in such a situation vshaark,corsair is the only other way to use support planets, and with the tzen firing first it could be mitigated slightly

Edit : im not keen on making the bomber a corvette personally, its another avenue for support planets to use for defending vs frigates.
if you want to make terran stronger against xan, up the damage done by the syren and wyvern, perhaps dropping the syren initiative by one too.
infact looking at terran, they have the weakest ships by damage/cost of the whole uni :/ so up the damage done by them all so its mid 30s

that just leaves anti-de in the form of phoenix, pulsar , anti-cr in the form of drake , scarab and ghosts, and anti-bs in the form of clipper, peacekeeper, widowmaker, chimera to plug so that support planets cant use them effectively

[cypher]

putting vsh and tzen on same init makes opens the choice to def vs each other (atleast far more then it was last round)

viper is obviously overpowered as hell as it was last round. i doubt anyone can really say they weren't without laughing. people just keep moaning that cath is bad defencewise, while it's actually the best race by far defencewise. as you only need a small fleet to save your planet completely. so a bit weaker cath wouldn't hurt anyone.

[isildurx]

Main thing is to fix the tzen and help the terrans.

[Monroe]

I'm not sure weakening the viper would make Xans unstoppable, in gal Terrans can still chew them up pretty good, plus making the bomber a CO would cut down on the number of Xan FRs wandering around the uni, as well as give Xans another option as def against other Xans.

[cypher]

changing bomber also means xans have to invest in loads of puls which they can't really use:/ bombers were atleast free anti ter..

ter weren't that weak last round tbh, just that they didn't have any alliance defence ships. which sucked for them. their BS and DE was effective enough as most xans didn't build that much anti bs/de and same goes for caths.

[Appocomaster]

but Xan will be strong against every other race - depending on if we make tzen the same as vsh or vsh the same as tzen

[Marneus]

i think changing the bomber to co targetting fr isnt good as it leaves a huge vunerability to destroyer class ships such as terran lynxs and although theres still the pulsar its pretty naff against the likes of harpy in my experience.

i'd suggest knocking up the vsh armour and maybe a delay to init to compensate thus it would be able to withstand the tzen a bit more but be slower in taking them out so any setinals or such could also get in before the vsh

[The_Fish]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

but Xan will be strong against every other race - depending on if we make tzen the same as vsh or vsh the same as tzen

Tell that to those in gal marauders and wyverns.

[Clogg]

I would like to see def coming from the same eta classes, or higher eta classes for ingal purposes.
Really is annoying that only CO/FI are able to use the pull just before tick tactic. For me as a Terran most def against me was an faster eta class, so I needed to have my fleet out for 2 ticks to actually see some defence. So pulling before tick had no advantage for me. I would really prefer equal chances for everyone.

It would also fastens the pace for the game, DC's too, anti-BS eta 9, oh no def, hope the gal has something then. I think it should be tried once, why not in the free round.

[Appocomaster]

For Round 16, less defence that you have to wait 1-2 ticks and then can still send via alliance should be present. However, for the speedgame I was talking about small stats tweaks to counter what we've learnt over the round and adjust for the speedgame

[NitinA]

Equalize Vsh inits to Tzen inits (4) and upgrade Corsair init to 5, IMO.

-NitinA

[rop1964]

having played the terran for the first time since i join pa, i will not redo the experience as it was in round 15, they were just like push overs.. the clipper fleet were laughing at the ter bs whenever they showed up.. and the ghost were eating out on a good terran cr diet.. and tzen feasted on any fighter they saw..the only ships that had some holding value were the de.. the rest of the terran fleet was getting pounded on easily.. and i m not talking about the gryphon inneffecitiveness.. too slow to defend, and easily overpowered by vipers..

[Kargool]

Originally Posted by rop1964

having played the terran for the first time since i join pa, i will not redo the experience as it was in round 15, they were just like push overs.. the clipper fleet were laughing at the ter bs whenever they showed up.. and the ghost were eating out on a good terran cr diet.. and tzen feasted on any fighter they saw..the only ships that had some holding value were the de.. the rest of the terran fleet was getting pounded on easily.. and i m not talking about the gryphon inneffecitiveness.. too slow to defend, and easily overpowered by vipers..

I think that Harpies were great in round 15. Harpies could be used against xan fi fleet, or as flak against xan/zik FR attacks or cath co attacks along with spiders (vs co) and vsharr and corsairs against xan FR/zik FR. I think I managed to cover alot of the xan fr incs with vsharrs and harpies to do some flak.

[Gate]

I actually had a set of stats mocked up somewhere, based on a mix of round 14 and round 15 stats. If you guys would be so kind to take a look at them, I'll post them up later.

It's only mockup 1 though, so they shouldn't be good enough, but maybe I was lucky enough to stumble on some nice ideas!

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by The_Fish

Tell that to those in gal marauders and wyverns.

I meant defensively.
Enough tzen/ vsh will cause an attacker to recall through chicken, lancers for co attacks, ghosts for cr attacks. Peacekeepers aren't bad for battleships. If the bomber is left as it is, that's 0 loss defence for de. For a big enough Xan who has quite a few of every ship, you're going to get hurt. You have to rely on the fact that the Xan won't build all ship types.

[Sjor]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

but Xan will be strong against every other race - depending on if we make tzen the same as vsh or vsh the same as tzen

if vsh has same init as tzen
than zik (forgot the name of the fi) should have same init agasint Fr too

[qebab]

The Corsair. However, not if the fighter is stealing ships, wich I can't remember clearly if it does.

[Sjor]

its not
had same init as vsh last round

[stubbsy]

But make the viper weaker? That would really make Xan unstoppable.

yes but at the moment a zik would have to spend roughly 9M res to overcome 1M res worth of vipers with a fr fleet, they're too strong.

the clipper fleet were laughing at the ter bs whenever they showed up

i don't know about that exactly... quite a few clippers were needed to overcome wyv, but when it happened, i'll agree that it was funny

[Unseen]

imo - drop the init of tzen but keep it one above vsh

make vsh heavier armoured and more punch

means that the relationship is kept roughly the same in how they work but means you need less vsh to make the tzen atk fail

keep bombers as they are or xan players will just get totally pwned by pegasus heavy DE fleets

[Paddy]

The main thing I think people are missing at the moment is the full consequences of changing the init of the vsh/tzen. iirc during beta testing the initiative of the vsh was the same as tzens and xans completely dominated. This is because they are vulnerable to absolutely nothing in defence and therefore hang onto their roids for far longer than any other race. The best suggestion I've seen so far was Appoco's which was to change the bomber to corvette targetting frig however this also could cause other problems, such as xan being able to be roided by 1 fleet from 1 race (terran de) and even this would be expensive. Without making bigger changes than are planned then I can't see a very good way of dealing with it

[isildurx]

On the other hand this would give Terran a fighting chance again.

[Heartless]

Personally I think it is no problem to see xan being vulnerable to DE class ships. After all, we got terran which get pwned by co class. It should be advisable that every race has a weak spot.

[Rocko]

Talking of the CO class, bearing in mind it's the fastest ETA, there's only 2 ships from out of gal that can deffend agasint it. I didnt play last round, but im assuming Cath Co fleets did very well. ?????
If the bomber goes to co targeting Frig, the then gyrphon is gonna have more hassle. and xans fi/co fleet gets alot stronger by one more ship
Give Xans the Crui and BS ships back. and their attacking fleets have 1 less ship,... thus lowering their attack power

[cypher]

cath co was obviously one of the strongest things in this game. (as seen by final rankings.) but people like to downplay them

[cypher]

Originally Posted by Heartless

Personally I think it is no problem to see xan being vulnerable to DE class ships. After all, we got terran which get pwned by co class. It should be advisable that every race has a weak spot.

if you look at it like that it's fine.... wondering what cathaar weakness is tho as they are strong versus everything.

while zik is weak vs everything and xan and ter have those flaws then.

[isildurx]

Originally Posted by cypher

cath co was obviously one of the strongest things in this game. (as seen by final rankings.) but people like to downplay them

Well ofcourse cath co owns start fo round, but later its VERY easily coverable. Both Lancers and Guardians were very frequent and made attacking often extremely hard.

[cypher]

tell that to the guys who had cath co incs in my alliance and gal who got roided by it quite often.

even tho people said there were alot...lancers weren't around in such large numbers. the problem with caths is that they always want no loss attacks, which is plain stupid. a xan loses ships while attacking. a terran does and a zik does. there is a pattern in that ya know :/

[Phil^]

both of those ships are utterly useless in an alliance co defence situation because of the eta

[Heartless]

Originally Posted by cypher

if you look at it like that it's fine.... wondering what cathaar weakness is tho as they are strong versus everything.

while zik is weak vs everything and xan and ter have those flaws then.

Zik rely on stealing ships - as usual. You cannot really upgrade ziks a lot more, as they just need to go mass-distorters et voila you cannot fa scan them and they could send anything at you. After all, Zik are for the more experienced people.

Cathaar cannot survive on their own, but I _think_ that they could do with a rather weak spot, too.

Ultimately, it would be very nice to have one race being able to roid a different one, for example ter can roid xan, xan can roid zik, zik can roid cat, cat can roid ter.

[Appocomaster]

How about:
Bomber: Cr(Co?) targetting Fr, init 3 (similar efficiencies as before)
Pulsar: ~325 of each resource
Viper 37->34 dmg
Beetle 29 -> 27 dmg
?

[furball]

For Cathaar, a weak spot is a class which is not targetted by any of its roiding fleets.


With EMP, all you need is numbers to flak through. That's why Cathaar can't be given proper weak spots like other races - because they would be permenantly battered by that class.

Originally Posted by Heartless

Ultimately, it would be very nice to have one race being able to roid a different one, for example ter can roid xan, xan can roid zik, zik can roid cat, cat can roid ter.

Too simplistic. Each race should be able to roid every other race with the correct fleet. Anyone can roid a Cath on sheer weight of numbers.

So:

e.g. Cath CO can roid Terran and Zik, but not Xan. Cath CR can roid Terran and Zik, and feasibly Xan - but can't roid all 3 with the same fleet. Players usually bias their fleets towards a particular anti-class - e.g. a Cath who plans on roiding Xans most of the time will have a lot of Tarantulas, and play chicken with them.

e.g.(2) Terran DE can roid Zik without mass stolen ships incredibly easily, but plays a game of chicken with other Terrans and should get slaughtered by Xans (Pulsars/Bombers), despite their heavy armour. Terran BS can roid Ziks with impunity again, and use the CR/BS combo on both Terrans and Xans (slight game of chicken there too).


See what I mean? Under your ideas, Heartless, Caths would be screwed because of a total lack of high-quality Terrans in the universe. With every race able to roid every other race, we actually have a fun game

[Appocomaster]

We're not trying to completely redo the stats for the speedgame, just a few changes.

And, to be honest, it's better if every race can't roid itself, and can roid 1 race with 2 fleets, and the remaining 2 races with one fleet each (different fleet for either race). That way, no matter what stats are like, you can still roid someone.
You can make networks like this as complex as you like for restrictions on how to make stats; the crunch time comes when you have to actually put letters and numbers on, and then keep the theory working (which I failed to do, tbh, this round).

[furball]

Good point on roiding your own race - shows how long I've been gone

[Appocomaster]

Well, if you can roid your own race it does make it interesting - If there's too much of that race then it can happily roid itself as a target. However, on the flip side if each race is strong against itself (with ETA defence), there'll always be enough defence ships to cope

[furball]

well, it's more because the race is always weaker through roiding itself - leading to 'more' fleets overall targetting it - i.e. able to use it as a target.

[robban1]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

How about:
Bomber: Cr(Co?) targetting Fr, init 3 (similar efficiencies as before)
Pulsar: ~325 of each resource
Viper 37->34 dmg
Beetle 29 -> 27 dmg
?

well bomber as cr in that case but that both ruin the the low eta idea of xan and make vsh useless or (vsh gets new targeting vs de?)

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by robban1

well bomber as cr in that case but that both ruin the the low eta idea of xan and make vsh useless or (vsh gets new targeting vs de?)

How does it make vsh useless?
Vsh would fire after tzen... bombers would fire before.
There's usually been a cruiser for xans, it's only recently I removed them.

[Gate]

The stats I've worked on are here.

Before you all tear me to pieces, please remember that this was mocked up in an hour or so on request of spritfire for his own reasons. They were also designed with a speedgame in mind, and are not geared towards the coming free round; but hopefully there will be some decent ideas in there. :)

I tried to make it so that each race could roid everyone, with varying degrees of difficulty. I have some issues with these stats but I think they are a reasonable base to try to work from, though they may just be complete crap ofc! :D

The targetting matrix I worked out is here. The column on the left represents the attacking race, the row at the top represents the target race. The class written down in the table is the class with which the attacking race can hit the targetted race with if required.

Comments please?

[Appocomaster]

Couldn't we just have the changes from current stats? I don't think completely changing stats would be a good idea - more than 1-2 changes in class is a bad thing

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

Couldn't we just have the changes from current stats? I don't think completely changing stats would be a good idea - more than 1-2 changes in class is a bad thing

I just wanted comments

I'd be in favour of bomber to CO->FR and pulsar beefing up a bit then, if we have to stick to just a handful of changes.

Though those stats are based on the current ones with a bit of influence from r13 and r14!

[Phil^]

gate... you do realise that only xan are meant to be the ones with the ludicrously cheap ships, yes?

cant we juse re-use r14 stats?

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Phil^

gate... you do realise that only xan are meant to be the ones with the ludicrously cheap ships, yes?

From round 7:

Corsair Fi Cr De Fr 13 45 20 2 1 1 15 350 250 0 5 2 Normal Zikonian Drone

Corsair was initially a swarm ship.

[Phil^]

Originally Posted by Gate

From round 7:

Corsair Fi Cr De Fr 13 45 20 2 1 1 15 350 250 0 5 2 Normal Zikonian Drone

Corsair was initially a swarm ship.

it also went for cruisers (and de/fr ) back then but it doesnt mean it should be so now

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Phil^

it also went for cruisers (and de/fr ) back then but it doesnt mean it should be so now

Doesn't mean xands always have to be the only swarm ships in the game either.

Yay for cheap corsairs tbh.

[Appocomaster]

At one point I planned zik to have swarm ships, till I realised lots of cheap small ships + steal = bad :P

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

At one point I planned zik to have swarm ships, till I realised lots of cheap small ships + steal = bad :P

What are large small ships? :/