Angels/NewDawn

[JonnyBGood]

Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid

Which alliance to hit depends on a wide range of factors. Hitting the weakest link is sometimes smart - yes. Smacking the strongest one however gives 2 benefits - hurting that one plus letting the weaker ones know what to expect when it gets round to their turn. After all, even the most optimistic of other alliances can't expect ND to take the kicking on their behalf for the rest of the round - so they know sooner or later they've got a price to pay. If the alliances involved were different ones then I'd agree with you - but I think you fail to understand the nature of some of the other involved alliances.

I guess the rest of the round will prove one of us right and the other wrong. Although only if we manage to play it twice heh.

I miss your point here. I suspect most ND members play for ND to do well - not to **** up 1up. What encouraging signs are they seeing last night? I expect tonight to be less encouraging for them.

I'd suspect by now most ND members play for ND to win, as I've interpreted 1up's general outlook on rounds "if it ain't first, it ain't shit". The encouraging signs were that they only just narrowly lost out, and if they'd eliminated some basic errors they would have "won" the night.

Which is why we won't hit them 1st, 2nd or 3rd. We'll hit them 24/7. Go ask ND - how many ticks have they had today without a 1up inc reported? How do you land AFTER continuous incoming? To improve their shot at #1 they need to reduce the gap between them and 1up. Keeping it stable while other alliances catch up on both reduces their chance - as not only they still got to at some point outroid 1up (I assume everyone accepts that if 1up/ND hit one another all round neither of us can win) - but their chance of beating other alliances reduces.

I meant when subh are rank 1, 1up are rank 2 and ND are rank 3. Obviously ND have to step up their game tonight but it's not just ND versus 1up, other alliances are benefitting from this and they might step up their games and try harder against 1up, leading to relative ND gains versus 1up.

[furball]

Spritfire excelling himself as per usual. If you can't name the other alliance(s) then just don't bother at all.

[Synthetic_Sid]

Originally Posted by lokken

If I choose to let people draw their own conclusions, that's my choice. It's very different to saying "you're wrong but I won't can't say why".

As you're interested about my view so much, here it is - the fact you want to intimidate another alliance into not hitting you, suggests it's not in your interest for them to. If you were perfectly happy with the situation, you'ld shut yourself in on IRC, annihilate ND and get it over with, considering you only come out on here on select occasions. The sheer fact you're trying to intimidate them, suggests you are something other than "happy".

Ah damn, you caught me out. OK, I'll hold my hands up - I'd rather ND weren't hitting us.

Now what relevance has that to the actual points I made? My point was NEVER that 1up WANTED ND to hit us - or that we were happy about it. My point was solely that for entirely logical - and fairly obvious - reasons 1up CAN'T blink first.

I appreciate it's easier to argue against a point i DIDN'T make than against one that I DID - but it can cause confusion to any readers who fail to realise that's what you appear to be doing.

[ComradeRob]

Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid

I think you miss a key point. If we stop hitting ND in the short/medium term they WON'T stop hitting us. If they stop hitting us in the short/medium term we WILL stop hitting them. If you don't disagree with either of those statements then why on earth do you think 1up would stop first (in the short/medium term)?

Ah, so your basic offer is: let us win, and we'll let you finish 2nd. It's not an explicit offer, but it's a pretty heavy implication.

At present, both sides are probably at their peak activity. Certainly neither side are likely to experience an increase in activity between now and the end of the round. There is a question over whether 1up can be given enough incoming, from various alliances, that it begins to impact on their morale and activity. If this is the case, then it's entirely in ND's interests to throw the kitchen sink at 1up, and encourage as many other alliances as possible to do the same. It's a strategy that has worked for eXilition in the past (though they had more favourable circumstances, I admit).

I DO accept that in the long term 1up might stop first. But that would be when we fell to #2 by a fair margin - by which stage ND would be 4th or lower. Do YOU think they're willing to drop that far down? Do YOU think we can't find allies before that happens? Do YOU think other alliances will keep hitting us when out roids drop low - hence losing out on xp themselves?

The gap between 1st and 4th at the moment is quite small, and this is an aggressive round. Knocking ND down to 4th isn't a huge threat. And they may have, uh, certain resources at their disposal to boost their score (though that's fairly idle speculation on my part, before anyone jumps in to tell me my intel is wrong).

As to whether other alliances will keep hitting 1up, that's debateable. On the one hand, losing roids makes you bad targets in the short term. But in the long term, extensive roid loss makes it impossible for you to regain the invincibility that comes with a healthy roid and value lead. In essence, you move a few notches down the food chain. I have a hard time imagining that many alliances would go to those lengths to put 1up out of the race, but at the same time I have to conclude that if they don't do this, 1up will keep taking the lead back.

In the end, ND and their allies may take the view that it's better to risk it all by taking 1up out than settling for 2nd place. Admittedly, it's a gamble they've shown an aversion to in the past, but if they can't take it in a free round then when can they?

[JonnyBGood]

In the end every conflict comes down to who is willing to sweat more blood to win. ND need to do more if they want to win this round. However they have shown that this lofty goal is not too far beyond their reach. YOU CEN DOO EET!

[mazzelaar]

Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

In the end every conflict comes down to who is willing to sweat more blood to win. ND need to do more if they want to win this round. However they have shown that this lofty goal is not too far beyond their reach. YOU CEN DOO EET!

Alternatively they coul djust dump 15 inactives, add DLR in and beat us by 30 million points

[furball]

Originally Posted by ComradeRob

The gap between 1st and 4th at the moment is quite small, and this is an aggressive round. Knocking ND down to 4th isn't a huge threat.

Then down to 9th

[Synthetic_Sid]

Originally Posted by ComradeRob

Ah, so your basic offer is: let us win, and we'll let you finish 2nd. It's not an explicit offer, but it's a pretty heavy implication.

Nope, not at all. As stated previously my gamble (or assumption) is that they'll stop hitting us while we've BOTH still got a chance of #1. As also explained earlier 1up CAN'T stop hitting them 1st - as that then allows them the option of continuing to hit us until they have a chance at #1 and we don't.

I don't see how I can explain it any clearer. The only two issues are:

1. Is my assumption correct? If not (and ND will keep hitting 1up until 1up CAN'T possibly win) then please explain why on earth 1up would want to target someone else?
2. How much damage do both sides need to take until ND realise that continuing further will prevent either of us winning?

I'm REALLY going now. When I return i'll answer posts that address these issues: but i'm not going to keep restating my points while people choose to misunderstand, misinterpret and/or misrepresent what I've posted.

EDIT: Re point 2. above i'm in no way suggesting we're anywhere near that point yet. We aren't.

[bwtmc]

Originally Posted by mazzelaar

But it took 1up alone to inflict damage onto ND. As a part of this little group of alliances you have to ask yourself, "how long will we be left alone before we start getting fat and 1up come looking for thier roids?".

Let's see. I imagine those alliances will consider the following:

Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid

If not (and ND will keep hitting 1up until 1up CAN'T possibly win) then please explain why on earth 1up would want to target someone else?

Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid

I'm not quite sure how you think it's a MAD strategy: I'd love to hear an alternative one. When 4-5 alliances hit one, the only realistic strategy IS to pick one and stick with that one - then recruit other alliances to your side to try to achieve some sort of parity. Swapping targets right now would be a terrible strategy for 1up.

The alternative - of changing targets right now to one of their allies - is to make ND's policy IMPROVE their chances of winning - which would just encourage them to stick with targetting us. It's ironic that because we believe ND are hitting us for tactical (rather than "personal") reasons we're obliged to target them back far more (and for far longer) than if their attacks were from some sort of grudge.

So, until NewDawn stop hitting 1up really.

And since it takes a great mass of players to inflict damage on 1up at present, and 1up alone to inflict great damage on NewDawn. For NewDawn to 'lead' the resistance and attempt to win, they're going to have to hit 1up until this is no longer the case. Presumably before both alliances are out of the race, and after the balance of power has shifted. That could be quite some time \o/

[ComradeRob]

Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid

Nope, not at all. As stated previously my gamble (or assumption) is that they'll stop hitting us while we've BOTH still got a chance of #1. As also explained earlier 1up CAN'T stop hitting them 1st - as that then allows them the option of continuing to hit us until they have a chance at #1 and we don't.

Yes, but you're presently in the lead. I can understand why you want to preserve the status quo. I can also understand why you want ND to accept the status quo too - you expect them to settle for 2nd place as per round 14.

The added benefit to you is that, should ND back off now, it's unlikely that another challenger to 1up will emerge. Angels are even less likely challengers than ND, ditto for Subh. So if ND don't beat you, nobody will.

This is where it gets interesting - there's a very heavy incentive for other alliances to assist ND, because you've already publicly declared an intention to keep hitting ND. Those other alliances would rather pull 1up back, because 1up are further into the lead. By continuing to hit ND, you may end up making it all the easier for Angels to justify hitting you - after all, they won't need to be so fearful of ND winning.

I'll be blunt: I'm not entirely sure that I believe your statement that you'll keep hitting ND. I understand that, strategically, it's the only thing you can say because your intention is to deter ND from hitting you. But that doesn't make it true. ND might just be willing to throw caution to the wind and call your bluff and as a neutral observer I'd have a hard time condemning them for doing so.

I don't see how I can explain it any clearer. The only two issues are:

1. Is my assumption correct? If not (and ND will keep hitting 1up until 1up CAN'T possibly win) then please explain why on earth 1up would want to target someone else?

There may come a point where ND gain relatively on 1up simply by taking the hits and gaining XP where they can. If 1up are under attack on several fronts, it might not matter where you hit. It'd require considerable guts from ND, but this round is almost perfectly suited to that kind of strategy.

2. How much damage do both sides need to take until ND realise that continuing further will prevent either of us winning?

I don't know. This question is almost unanswerable. It relies entirely on the big picture - what other alliances are doing, outside of 1up and ND.

If I were ND HC, my strategy would be to hit 1up with everything I have, and encourage other alliances to do the same. If the other alliances are unwilling to do so, I'd stop hitting 1up and settle in for 2nd place. As such, the whole question hinges on the behaviour of, primarily, Angels, Subh and perhaps TGV/VGN. If they don't assist ND now then 1up will win.

I admit that, as a past 1up member, I would have angrily refuted such logic in the past. But it's an unavoidable fact that it's in everyone else's interests to be utterly unfair to 1up.

[ChipZ^]

Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid

1. Is my assumption correct? If not (and ND will keep hitting 1up until 1up CAN'T possibly win) then please explain why on earth 1up would want to target someone else?
2. How much damage do both sides need to take until ND realise that continuing further will prevent either of us winning?

So what your saying is that any allaince that takes the initative and attacks 1up to try to take the win, will always fail in winning.

So for an allaince other than 1up to win, they have to hope that you get dogged down fighting a differnt war?

It seems to me that would make an even more boring round as no-one would want to take the initative

Is it also possible that if the 1up/ND war continues until they are #2/#3 respectivly and for example angels were #1, then you'd have to change targets so not to let Angels run away with the win (in which case ND could stop attacking you and coast to #1)

[gzambo]

for 1up to win newdawn have to settle for 2nd
for newdawn to have a chance of winning they have to get more ppl to hit u with them (including angels) then if that happens newdawn have a chance at 1st

pretty simple if you think about it

[bwtmc]

The first statement's completely inaccurate. 1up can win regardless of NewDawn's decisions. Angels/SubH/whoever else are far too significant for NewDawn alone to decide that - And the whole point is, they won't decide that because if they allow both themselves and 1up to battle for -that- long, they'll be in too weaker position to make anything of it.

The second's reasonable though.

So it's not -quite- that simple. But close

[Tis]

Originally Posted by ComradeRob

I admit that, as a past 1up member, I would have angrily refuted such logic in the past. But it's an unavoidable fact that it's in everyone else's interests to be utterly unfair to 1up.

Everyone's interest? The way I see it, its only in NDs interest... they fence-sat the whole round till they were comfortably in second, while Subh and a few others tried to hold back 1up, and now ND expects everyone else to help them win the round. Why is it in Angels, Subh, etc's best interest to help them? Does it really mean that much finish second to ND rather than second to 1up?

[The_Fish]

Originally Posted by Tis

Everyone's interest? The way I see it, its only in NDs interest... they fence-sat the whole round till they were comfortably in second, while Subh and a few others tried to hold back 1up, and now ND expects everyone else to help them win the round. Why is it in Angels, Subh, etc's best interest to help them? Does it really mean that much finish second to ND rather than second to 1up?

[omitted - was this necessary, I don't think it was - Lok]

Angels/Subh etc know they stand a much better chance of beating ND than 1up.

If ND and friends can push 1up down to an acceptable level (whatever that is isnt down to me) then Angels/Subh can win. If 1up pull away Angels etc can NOT win. For at least the next 5 days everyone must smash 1up or else 1up will easily win.

You can smell the fear in 1up by the sheer amount they are posting, how embarrassing for them would it be to lose a round where exilition arent playing?

[lizardking]

Seems to me ND changed prior strategies and imo change is always healthy when u aim to improve past results - what else there is to do.

Wether u succeed or not, u can atleast take pride on the fact u tried.

And ofc warring is far greater fun than sitting still waiting others to carry out the tasks. It is after all what the game is about.

Sum1 stood up. Respect.

[ChipZ^]

Originally Posted by Tis

Everyone's interest? The way I see it, its only in NDs interest... they fence-sat the whole round till they were comfortably in second, while Subh and a few others tried to hold back 1up, and now ND expects everyone else to help them win the round. Why is it in Angels, Subh, etc's best interest to help them? Does it really mean that much finish second to ND rather than second to 1up?

Its always in everyones intrests when the #1 ally is getting hit (wether its 1up or not) cause then everyone can catch up.

[cypher]

i'm just gonna laugh when dlr guys join ND in tag later on and they win the round by a mile cuz let's face it... atm ND with 69 people has an easy win tbh

good thing we can have fun fleetcatching

[Grog]

Well this thread certainly got entertaining.

Haven't seen the 1up propoganda machine this active for a long time.

A good read all around.

/me wanders off to find some fat ziks to roid

Have fun with your war.

[Nadar]

Originally Posted by cypher

i'm just gonna laugh when dlr guys join ND in tag later on and they win the round by a mile cuz let's face it... atm ND with 69 people has an easy win tbh

They would have gotten as much credit as Ely got in r10 if so



(I'd laugh anyway)

[lokken]

Tis, Zhil, Troll, Squidly, Achilles, Chika, Banned, Ska, The_Fish

all in breach of the forum rules.

(stop ****ing up the thread)

[Chika]

Oh, how dare you!
My post was in clearly in conjunction with sids dribble, thus being ON POINT with the thread topic. Synthetic_sid, all of a sudden has mucho planetarion logics when his alliance is winning. When exil is stomping them into the ground he has no post. This needs to be pointed out to the minons who respect his post, though they hold no water.
You learn the REAL side of a person when they are getting the crap kicked out of them.
Exil pwning- Sid= NADA. Exil not around- SId = Pa genius.

[Cannon_Fodder]

Lok why are you deleting all the posts showing your cock-up?

[lokken]

Originally Posted by sniborp

Lok why are you deleting all the posts showing your cock-up?

As we had a discussion, decided I was right, agreed to remove it and moved on.

I felt like Brian Clough making this post btw

[lokken]

Originally Posted by Chika

Oh, how dare you!
My post was in clearly in conjunction with sids dribble, thus being ON POINT with the thread topic. Synthetic_sid, all of a sudden has mucho planetarion logics when his alliance is winning. When exil is stomping them into the ground he has no post. This needs to be pointed out to the minons who respect his post, though they hold no water.
You learn the REAL side of a person when they are getting the crap kicked out of them.
Exil pwning- Sid= NADA. Exil not around- SId = Pa genius.

I can't say your logic isn't reasonable (whether I agree with it, I'm not going to say).

But does that give you the right to be plain insulting? I don't think it does. This post on the other hand, wasn't insulting, yet made the point you were trying to make. Do you see what we're looking for here?

[Synthetic_Sid]

Originally Posted by ChipZ^

Its always in everyones intrests when the #1 ally is getting hit (wether its 1up or not) cause then everyone can catch up.

Untrue - or at least only a part truth.

It's nearly ALWAYS in everyone's interest that someone else gets the incs rather than themselves. (I say nearly always as there are certain circumstances where getting incs has a long term benefit outweighing the short-term consequences).

For any alliance aiming to improve their alliance rank then it's always good for them if any alliance above them - who they have a realistic chance of catching - gets incs.

For any alliance aiming for #1 it's always good for them if others hit the current #1.

For your sweeping statement to be true you would have to assume that ALL alliances were aiming for #1. As a simple example of why your statement is false, consider a hypothetical small alliance that was allied to the current #1. How is it in THEIR interests (and they'd be part of your "everyone") for the #1 to get hit?

I'd accept that anyone aiming for #1 alliance gains. Beyond that the statement is only true in general to the extent that ANYONE being hit other than yourself gives some marginal benefit due to your own reduced incs. 1up hitting ND benefits some alliances MORE than ND hitting us does - specifically any alliances would would like to finish ahead of ND but don't think they can finish #1 and any alliances who would otherwise be receiving incs from 1up.

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by Chika

You learn the REAL side of a person when they are getting the crap kicked out of them.

Hehe that really made me laugh comming from you. I`ve never seen a bigger whiner/quitter after losing a few roids.

You cant think much about yourself at least following your own logic.

[ReligFree]

Originally Posted by ComradeRob

Ah, so your basic offer is: let us win, and we'll let you finish 2nd. It's not an explicit offer, but it's a pretty heavy implication.

At present, both sides are probably at their peak activity. Certainly neither side are likely to experience an increase in activity between now and the end of the round. There is a question over whether 1up can be given enough incoming, from various alliances, that it begins to impact on their morale and activity. If this is the case, then it's entirely in ND's interests to throw the kitchen sink at 1up, and encourage as many other alliances as possible to do the same. It's a strategy that has worked for eXilition in the past (though they had more favourable circumstances, I admit).


The gap between 1st and 4th at the moment is quite small, and this is an aggressive round. Knocking ND down to 4th isn't a huge threat. And they may have, uh, certain resources at their disposal to boost their score (though that's fairly idle speculation on my part, before anyone jumps in to tell me my intel is wrong).

As to whether other alliances will keep hitting 1up, that's debateable. On the one hand, losing roids makes you bad targets in the short term. But in the long term, extensive roid loss makes it impossible for you to regain the invincibility that comes with a healthy roid and value lead. In essence, you move a few notches down the food chain. I have a hard time imagining that many alliances would go to those lengths to put 1up out of the race, but at the same time I have to conclude that if they don't do this, 1up will keep taking the lead back.

In the end, ND and their allies may take the view that it's better to risk it all by taking 1up out than settling for 2nd place. Admittedly, it's a gamble they've shown an aversion to in the past, but if they can't take it in a free round then when can they?

This post is so full of holes its ridiculous. It does not benefit ND to keep hitting 1up in the long term. Watch sandmans today, 1up will do well, ND really wont thus offering the oppurtunity for the Subhs/xVx/Angels of this world to close the gap on them.

Also by the comment about other resources being available to ND i take it you are implying DLR dropping there tag to join ND and provide a score boost. That wont happen, ive played DLR for last 3 rounds, known some of the guys for 5 years or so and know that that wont happen. Theyve chosen to play this round on there own, obviously helping ND, but not in such a blunt way as dropping there tag to join them. And tbh im quite sure ND dont want to recruit DLR to win (Ely anyone?) and be known as the new alliance that recruited to win.

ND have shown there worth and grit this round. Theyve lost some really really key members, the Gates, Grogs etc. And there still second, serious respect to the boys who have taken over and running that. There decision to hit us in 1up? I dont know, i think its stupid as its not going to benefit them long term. But ofc every alliance has there own agenda and as of most alliances ND's is to do there utmost to win this round, and then if that fails not to stagnate the round for the good of the game.

The last bit about ND taking aversions to hitting the #1 alliance etc. Do you have any idea what your talking about? ND went all out on eXi last few days last round after we felt we had given ourselves as much chance as possible to keep the #1 spot from them. We were well beaten by a better alliance, but under no circumstances can you claim that ND doesnt hit the biggest threat to them not achieving the highest spot possible as frankly thats bullocks.

[Synthetic_Sid]

Originally Posted by Chika

Oh, how dare you!
My post was in clearly in conjunction with sids dribble, thus being ON POINT with the thread topic. Synthetic_sid, all of a sudden has mucho planetarion logics when his alliance is winning. When exil is stomping them into the ground he has no post. This needs to be pointed out to the minons who respect his post, though they hold no water.
You learn the REAL side of a person when they are getting the crap kicked out of them.
Exil pwning- Sid= NADA. Exil not around- SId = Pa genius.

If exil were able/willing to discuss "logics" on the forums then I'd have no problem engaging in debate with them. But all the while their supporters on here are of the standard of yourself and Max I see no possibility of any useful discussion here.

P.S. I'm glad to hear my "minons" don't have water retention problems.

[Synthetic_Sid]

Originally Posted by Treveler

Hehe that really made me laugh comming from you. I`ve never seen a bigger whiner/quitter after losing a few roids.

You cant think much about yourself at least following your own logic.

No need to sink to personal insults Trev. We all know it's purely coincidence that Chika has RL problems every round shortly after he gets roided heavily.

[Chika]

Originally Posted by Treveler

Hehe that really made me laugh comming from you. I`ve never seen a bigger whiner/quitter after losing a few roids.

You cant think much about yourself at least following your own logic.

I always whine. I have never quit due to losing roids. I am in a position to not have to defend this fact, as people have witnessed me go undefended, and still end pretty high.
I want to laugh with you though Laughing is good. Hahaha

[Cannon_Fodder]

Originally Posted by lokken

As we had a discussion, decided I was right, agreed to remove it and moved on.

I felt like Brian Clough making this post btw

Is this a 'i thought to myself, im right. so i deleted their posts' or a 'we talked on irc, we decided i was right so i deleted their posts' ?

[Chika]

Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid

If exil were able/willing to discuss "logics" on the forums then I'd have no problem engaging in debate with them. But all the while their supporters on here are of the standard of yourself and Max I see no possibility of any useful discussion here.

P.S. I'm glad to hear my "minons" don't have water retention problems.

At least you are not denying it. Which in essesnce would be worse. And so you are saying that the likes of Fish and a few other people who's nicks I can't even rememer to recite, is what it takes for you to speak up? Funny, they have been posting here a long time. All while you were getting a foot in it last round and Rd 13 also.
Wrather my post are idiotic or not is up for debate. You shutting your mouth when your alliance is getting owned is a fact. Your a smart man. Can't argue the facts bro'.

[qebab]

Originally Posted by ReligFree

There decision to hit us in 1up? I dont know, i think its stupid as its not going to benefit them long term. But ofc every alliance has there own agenda and as of most alliances ND's is to do there utmost to win this round, and then if that fails not to stagnate the round for the good of the game.

I don't get why so many of the people currently post in this thread think it's stupidity to attack 1up. To make it really simple, so people here understand - someone needs to hit 1up for ND to win. Noone did it for a long time, and 1up was getting too far ahead. ND took steps, and much respect to them for that! I can respect cunning moves, strength etc... but I hold little respect for cowardice. ND did the exact opposite, it's a brave move, and the effects will be long term. We have yet to see if it will pay of and give ND a shot at #1 or not. It seems quite clear to me, that if ND had not attacked 1up, they would NOT have a shot at #1. It's the logical thing to do, if you want to go for a win. Why on earth people don't get that is beyond me.

The way I see it, they could settle for #2, or they could try to get #1. It has yet to be decided if they can win or not. Thus, saying with certainty that "as its not going to benefit them long term" is wrong. Maybe, you can point to this after the round and go "what did I say". At the moment, you can not.

[Chika]

Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid

No need to sink to personal insults Trev. We all know it's purely coincidence that Chika has RL problems every round shortly after he gets roided heavily.

Bah, 1 round I left because got married and had a baby shortly after. Please fill me in on any other round. Or are you just talking out of your neck?

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by Chika

I always whine. I have never quit due to losing roids. I am in a position to not have to defend this fact, as people have witnessed me go undefended, and still end pretty high.
I want to laugh with you though Laughing is good. Hahaha

Ohhh yes going undefended and end high is really hard as proven this round. Your such a fantastic player.

You quit as in leaving your alliances and it usually happen shortly after you have whined your ass of after losing a few roids.

[ReligFree]

Originally Posted by qebab

I don't get why so many of the people currently post in this thread think it's stupidity to attack 1up. To make it really simple, so people here understand - someone needs to hit 1up for ND to win. Noone did it for a long time, and 1up was getting too far ahead. ND took steps, and much respect to them for that! I can respect cunning moves, strength etc... but I hold little respect for cowardice. ND did the exact opposite, it's a brave move, and the effects will be long term. We have yet to see if it will pay of and give ND a shot at #1 or not. It seems quite clear to me, that if ND had not attacked 1up, they would NOT have a shot at #1. It's the logical thing to do, if you want to go for a win. Why on earth people don't get that is beyond me.

The way I see it, they could settle for #2, or they could try to get #1. It has yet to be decided if they can win or not. Thus, saying with certainty that "as its not going to benefit them long term" is wrong. Maybe, you can point to this after the round and go "what did I say". At the moment, you can not.

Hehe if im wrong i'l openly stand up and admit it come the end of the round. But i dont realistically think ND have a chance of beating 1up, ND know this as well i think hence the need for all the flack. ND want to get there 3rd round in 2nd place or be dropped to around 5th and continute this seemingly pointless vendeta against 1up? Obviously this wont benefit 1up or ND in the long term. Our roids will remain around the 30k marker whilst surrounding alliances can start to bump up to the 40k boundary. In some ways i think i like this situation as the XP boosts for hitting people with on average 100 more roids than you is massive. Thats why eXilition beat ND last round and i dont care what others say. Some of our planets were chucking out 800k score for landing 1 attack last round on them.

So basically do ND keep this going on 1up and ruin there chances of top3 finish? As sid said if ND stop hitting 1up, 1up will not hit ND anymore. 1up cant stop hitting ND and allow this to continue as that would be stupid for us to do such a thing. Oh well, lets see what happens i spose

[Tis]

Originally Posted by qebab

To make it really simple, so people here understand - someone needs to hit 1up for ND to win.

Exactly. ND wasnt willing to help subh and co when subh was in second with the best chance of capitializing on a takedown of 1up... I'm not sure why you suddenly expect all these alliances to selflessly help ND win when ND wasnt willing to do the same. If I were them, I would do exactly what ND did... fence sit and maximize growth while ND and a few others keep 1up occupied and slowed down.

[lokken]

Originally Posted by sniborp

Is this a 'i thought to myself, im right. so i deleted their posts' or a 'we talked on irc, we decided i was right so i deleted their posts' ?

We talked on the forums and in pm, decided I was right and deleted their posts. When you're done, we can delete this little discussion as well.

[lokken]

Originally Posted by Tis

Exactly. ND wasnt willing to help subh and co when subh was in second with the best chance of capitializing on a takedown of 1up... I'm not sure why you suddenly expect all these alliances to selflessly help ND win when ND wasnt willing to do the same. If I were them, I would do exactly what ND did... fence sit and maximize growth while ND and a few others keep 1up occupied and slowed down.

If you want to win in this game, you save principles til later. An open round profits them, just as much as it would profit everyone else.

If ND choose to lead proceedings now instead of letting someone else take a short-term kicking - it's their choice. They're only trying what other alliances tried, except they're trying to get the requisite numbers on their side.

If I was them, I'd give it a week or two.

[Synthetic_Sid]

Originally Posted by Tis

Exactly. ND wasnt willing to help subh and co when subh was in second with the best chance of capitializing on a takedown of 1up... I'm not sure why you suddenly expect all these alliances to selflessly help ND win when ND wasnt willing to do the same. If I were them, I would do exactly what ND did... fence sit and maximize growth while ND and a few others keep 1up occupied and slowed down.

Which ironically is precisely what ND did last round with exi. Letting others fight exi while not joining in themselves DID give ND a shot at #1 - but they were unable to hold off exi + flak at the end. I suspect their hope this round was to do something similar - let subh/angels hold off 1up while ND grew to #1 fairly peacefully. The circumstances didn't pan out correctly for that to work so now they're trying a different approach.

At some stage ND are going to have to realise that there's a terrible inconsistency in using the "we fight for ND not to help others" argument to avoid fights other people started - then expecting others to help ND when it's THEM that start a fight. Irrespective of any potential benefits to other alliances in atatcking either 1up, ND or both at the moment I suspect there's a lot of alliance leaders who are amused by the whole thing and will (quite sensibly) do whatever they think is most likely to keep it continuing as long as possible. And, if asked by ND why they won't join in whole-heartedly in hitting 1up, they can just point to the "we fight our own wars" post by ND HC (I think) last round while trying to keep a straight face.

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by Chika

When? I have no debate with you really, as your just a 1up mouth. And virtually your importance ends right where your breath hits on your comp monitor.*

Your such a poor player that you hardly make an impact besides for your whining, but I think you quit one round in fang and two rounds in 1up.

And you becomming a father was a bit amusing too. "sorry folks I didnt realise I couldnt play pa hardcore after just becomming a father. I think I have to quit"

[Chika]

Originally Posted by Treveler

Your such a poor player that you hardly make an impact besides for your whining, but I think you quit one round in fang and two rounds in 1up.

And you becomming a father was a bit amusing too. "sorry folks I didnt realise I couldnt play pa hardcore after just becomming a father. I think I have to quit"

ok you win. i wanted sid since he all of a sudden was active. But seems he sicked his pooch on me. You "owned" me bro'. You got me so good.

[Gimmick]

Just getting back on topic for a second.

What made me laugh is the way this thread has developed. It all started with a blatant propoganda post from The_Fish and I quote:

Originally Posted by The_Fish

NewDawn: Stop living up to your reputation, you have been clever politically many times, and once again despite probably having a worse memberbase than other alliances, you find yourself above them. However, sometimes the only option is to fight. If you don't, 2nd is the best you can aim for once more.

Angels: Remember that post I made on here a while ago saying it doesnt matter who your HC is, you're all shit? Well here is the chance to prove me wrong. But even if you do try to stop 1up, you need to ensure your member discipline is far better than it was in R15.

I love the way that in his first post he is acting as though DLR and New Dawn dont have any relations. Whats also funny to remember at the time of him making this post NewDawn had quite a nice roid ratio. Secondly whats funny is hes trying to get Angels onside.

God knows how desperate NewDawn must be now. When they were quite fat roid wisethey wanted Angels on there side, now they have been roided down and had some incoming (a bit like the last week of r15 eh?) I wonder who they are begging to join them.

We all know NewDawn cant fight a battle on there own and when it goes wrong, ultimately they turn to others to help them fight. Im not saying thats a bad thing. Politically ND rock (or did in the past) now there politics seem anarchic. Moving from one policy to another without any clear direction. Maybe its because your HC are spread over two alliances?

Finally 1up -4%, NewDawn -9% and F-Crew +11.6%

[Treveler]

Originally Posted by Chika

ok you win. i wanted sid since he all of a sudden was active. But seems he sicked his pooch on me. You "owned" me bro'. You got me so good.

You being bitter suit your worse then your whining. You really should try to lighten up a bit.

[lokken]

Originally Posted by Synthetic_Sid

Which ironically is precisely what ND did last round with exi. Letting others fight exi while not joining in themselves DID give ND a shot at #1 - but they were unable to hold off exi + flak at the end. I suspect their hope this round was to do something similar - let subh/angels hold off 1up while ND grew to #1 fairly peacefully. The circumstances didn't pan out correctly for that to work so now they're trying a different approach.

At some stage ND are going to have to realise that there's a terrible inconsistency in using the "we fight for ND not to help others" argument to avoid fights other people started - then expecting others to help ND when it's THEM that start a fight. Irrespective of any potential benefits to other alliances in atatcking either 1up, ND or both at the moment I suspect there's a lot of alliance leaders who are amused by the whole thing and will (quite sensibly) do whatever they think is most likely to keep it continuing as long as possible. And, if asked by ND why they won't join in whole-heartedly in hitting 1up, they can just point to the "we fight our own wars" post by ND HC (I think) last round while trying to keep a straight face.

The difference was, that last round, ND's policy was entirely justified considering their position, and their defeat only came about by a terminal military failure on its part. Here 1up have a lead (unlike ND), and look set to dominate proceedings and if they aren't tackled, 1up will win at a canter (unlike exilition, who took the lead with 3 days to spare). Leaving ND alone to fight 1up for the others (as they've experienced themselves by trying it) just won't suffice - circumstances have changed, they now have a concensus. If they want to win, it is a near military necessity because fighting ND after coming through a scrap with 1up, is far easier than fighting a dominant, motivated 1up.

Why is ND doing it? Because if it is successful, it has an equal chance, just like Angels, just like Subh. You yourself have admitted that you'll be targetting ND solely, so really, what do Angels and Subh have to lose by joining in and taking off what effectively are roids with no consequences attached. Or will you just move off ND for better roids and take your eye off the ball like you promised you wouldn't earlier in the thread?

ND fights its own wars, of course it does, and today it fights 1up. Does that necessarily mean that other people aren't interested?

[Tis]

Originally Posted by lokken

what do Angels and Subh have to lose by joining in and taking off what effectively are roids with no consequences attached?

Because they can get much much better/easier roids/score elsewhere. Any 1up with decent roids has multiple waves, usually with multiple fleets per wave. The best way to hold 1up back yes, but certainly not the best way to grow yourself.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by ComradeRob

If I were ND HC, my strategy would be to hit 1up with everything I have, and encourage other alliances to do the same. If the other alliances are unwilling to do so, I'd stop hitting 1up and settle in for 2nd place. As such, the whole question hinges on the behaviour of, primarily, Angels, Subh and perhaps TGV/VGN. If they don't assist ND now then 1up will win.

I admit that, as a past 1up member, I would have angrily refuted such logic in the past. But it's an unavoidable fact that it's in everyone else's interests to be utterly unfair to 1up.

The problem is do the other alliances have much motivation in helping ND. With ND 15million and 1up 23million ahead of 3rd they both are fairly secure in their positions but with TGV in 9th and just 2 million behind 3rd theres alot to be fought for between 3rd and 9th place.

Now some of these alliances could help ND but by doing so the risk reducing their daily gains as such aid probally isnt going to be as profitable to them thus potentially losing them many places. At the same time they leave themselves extreamly open to either to retals by 1up (either because they do what Sid says they wouldnt do and switch targets or because ND screw them over by deciding to settle for 2nd place leaving them alone in the firing line) or for other alliances to take pot shots at them while they are pre occupied.

I cant help but think that unless the gap is radically closed thus giving the chasing group a realistic chance of stealing 1st place then ND is going to struggle to get anyone in those positions to back them. And the problem for ND would seem to be if they dont get the support its more likly to be themselves whom get dragged into range of the chasing pack and as furball suggested thats probally going to make them the targets rather than 1up.

If they want backup they are problly gonna have alot better chance getting a number of those in teh 10-20 rankings whom have less to fight for and would like to try and make a name for themselves and then hope to reel 1up in enough to give others the belief they stand a chance of challenging for top spot

[lokken]

Originally Posted by Tis

Because they can get much much better/easier roids/score elsewhere. Any 1up with decent roids has multiple waves, usually with multiple fleets per wave. The best way to hold 1up back yes, but certainly not the best way to grow yourself.

But then they can't win.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by lokken

But then they can't win.

but neither can Angels or Subh. They would basically be doing all the work while comprimising their ranking to let NewDawn win. Its hardly an incentive to help out is it