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View Poll Results: Should the support planet rule change?
No - it's fine as it is 27 18.62%
Yes - hardcode it so planets in a tag can't defend/be defended outside of alliance and galaxy 59 40.69%
Yes - limit the current rule to defending 5 3.45%
Yes - just get rid of it 52 35.86%
Other 2 1.38%
Voters: 145. You may not vote on this poll

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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 00:59   #1
lokken
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The Support Planets Rule

As this rule has been much discussed and thoroughly concerns alliances, I'd like to gauge AD's opinion on the support planet rule, in order to assist the creators in future rounds to get a much more workable solution.

While we can complain as much as we like, I think it would help to be proactive and to give the alliance players a voice in what they feel is the best solution.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 01:05   #2
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

I've always felt that the alliance tag limit is there to be respected. I don't mind scanners not being in a tag, but planets from outside an alliance shouldn't be able to repeatedly defend an alliance.

If a planet from alliance A defends a planet in alliance B, that is fine as long as one of the alliances isn't a bogus alliance (e.g. VGN 1 and VGN 2). If that did happen, then there would have to be serious repercussions against an alliance trying to pull that.

HR and Rock are known to be friendly, and HR's planets may be defending Rock tonight. That is fine as long as it doesn't happen on repeated occasions. If it did then it shouldn't be allowed.


The current rule was introduced to stop alliances evading the limit with defence-orientated planets. We should try to stick to this.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 01:10   #3
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

I voted yes, hardcode it.

Its either that or get rid of the rule altogether, as it simply cant be policed properly.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 01:11   #4
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

I felt hardcoding is the best option as it just eliminates confusion, and lets people get on with the game while ensuring alliances don't benefit excessively from having planets outside the tag. It also maintains politics by letting people continue to attack who they like.

It also lets the user know that by joining an alliance you sacrifice certain priveleges and means it's the same for all alliances. One might suggest this coding is altered slightly for lower ranked alliances in the game (i.e. perhaps disapply it for a tag below the top 5 so that those outside the top 5 can defend each other, but not those in the top 5).
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 01:14   #5
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

No offence to hardcode proponents, but the idea is crap. What about geunine friends and others who stand to be hurt by this rule? I just don't think that limiting where peoples fleets can go is a good idea.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 01:38   #6
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

I voted to 'just get rid of it'

The rule is good if it's applied on support planets only - planets that belong in the alliance tag
But if the rule leads to what lokken suggests then I guess I rather get rid of it


Maybe a good alternative would be if
Multihunters would be able to remove the ability to defend and attack with certain alliances on specific planets when they are caught being a support planet
But getting rid of the rule will also do just fine
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Last edited by Alessio; 20 Dec 2005 at 01:45.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 01:42   #7
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

why limit the options of the players like this ? isnt this a game ? shouldnt a game be fun ? just get rid of rules like this
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 01:56   #8
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Yes, get rid of it. Without the rule eXi can use more support planets and win the next round with less effort!
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 02:18   #9
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Get rid of it, the rule is ambiguious and unclear if you ask me
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 02:55   #10
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

get rid of it, before we have other stupid rules popping up like mushrooms
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 03:15   #11
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Why do people keep blowing this rule out of proportion. Everyone gets on their high horse and starts going "Im going to get deleted for defending my friend" when the rules only there to allow PAteam to close those people whom are blatently abusing the system with planets setup to do nothing but defend. They arent going to close you if your clearly playing the game seriously and just defending others outside your tag from time to time
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 03:24   #12
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

which is why i voted to keep it as it is. its fairly clear (to me at least) what the rule was intended for.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 09:14   #13
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Why do people keep blowing this rule out of proportion. Everyone gets on their high horse and starts going "Im going to get deleted for defending my friend" when the rules only there to allow PAteam to close those people whom are blatently abusing the system with planets setup to do nothing but defend or attack . They arent going to close you if your clearly playing the game seriously and just defending others outside your tag from time to time
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 11:43   #14
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Hardcode it, getting rid of it is like giving the next 10 rounds to the alliance who's able to manipulate the most flak.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 12:10   #15
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Voted for hardcoding. That would show an alliance's real mettle and you couldn't really argue against any alliance finishing top spot under those conditions IMO.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 12:34   #16
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
Hardcode it, getting rid of it is like giving the next 10 rounds to the alliance who's able to manipulate the most flak.
So what happens when you hardcode the feature to prevent defence support planets and instead of supporting them that way they start turning these people in to escorts to help with their attacking. Are you then going to call for a hardcoded block on attacking planets that are being attacked by those people outside your tag. Wouldnt that be fun as that would pretty much rule half the alliances in the game from sending attacks as I dont know about Angels but F-Crew have barely had an attack this round which hasnt had another alliances attack land before, during or after it. And as you know KJ F-Crew turned down every offer we received involving NAP's and other such military agreements (after all we turned Angels offer down when they approached us with a NAP to stop us landing on Angels members whom we were apparently attacking fairly often, and thats with a very pro angels HC member in Cm) so it wasnt that this was happening due to co-operation, its just theres a limited number of viable targets.

Simply put we dont need further hardcoded attack/defence limits. If people want to defend people outside their tag then fine let them as some cooperation is good for the game and then leave it to the MH to deal with those whom take the piss with it and are clearly abusing the system
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 12:56   #17
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Why do people keep blowing this rule out of proportion. Everyone gets on their high horse and starts going "Im going to get deleted for defending my friend" when the rules only there to allow PAteam to close those people whom are blatently abusing the system with planets setup to do nothing but defend. They arent going to close you if your clearly playing the game seriously and just defending others outside your tag from time to time
Because it's a rule that stops friends defending each other out of tag, yet allows alliances to go to town on the rule. So it stops altruistic defending, yet throughly endorses people who intend to solely benefit someone else simply for the sake of it which is far worse.

I would rather people are deleted for actual cheating than having this rule which basically penalises defending, which to me seems absurd. People state that you need repeated defences, yet this has the effect of stopping people dead except for those who want to use it in one off situations which benefit players far more than two defences from a mate to a friend could ever do.

Now from the creation of this rule, PA team openly stated that it was to enforce the 80 member limit. So either they want to enforce it or they cooked up a false argument, in which case there is no justification for this rule whatsoever. Personally I'd rather have no rule at all, but if we must have this enforcement of 80 member alliances then I'd go for hardcoding.

I have never proposed stopping planets attacking who they like, because to do that utterly eliminates politics from the game.

For the record, my planet is built up solely to attack this round, but it's in tag. Do you know why it is? Because you can't play with terran by any other manner.
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Last edited by lokken; 20 Dec 2005 at 13:02.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 13:05   #18
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

I voted for hardcoding it, but I only think it should be done for the free round. Free rounds are notoriously problematic for stuff like this. If it doesn't **** up the round too much, it should be considered for PAN.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 13:12   #19
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

My main concern is having a clear rule that players can understand. I don't trust PA team to enforce consistent judgements, so the objective of any rule should be to remove any element of arbitrary judgement from the process.

For that reason, either get rid of the rule or make it clear (by banning all out-of-gal/alliance def).
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 13:14   #20
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedCrab
Yes, get rid of it. Without the rule eXi can use more support planets and win the next round with less effort!
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 13:19   #21
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
I don't trust PA team to enforce consistent judgements
this was actually my first thought aswell.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 13:50   #22
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedCrab
Yes, get rid of it. Without the rule eXi can use more support planets and win the next round with less effort!
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 13:54   #23
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Hardcode it or you might aswell get rid of alot of other stuff aswell like alliance limits. The alliance limit is there for a reason. If everyone has more people then their alliance limit allows you just get an uneven game.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 14:30   #24
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by cypher
Hardcode it or you might aswell get rid of alot of other stuff aswell like alliance limits. The alliance limit is there for a reason. If everyone has more people then their alliance limit allows you just get an uneven game.
I have to disagree with that. By throwing the current allliance system completly overboard we are comming several closer to blocking rounds we saw before pax. Tho I miss cluster warfare.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 14:39   #25
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

I voted leave it as it is, its fine. Let pateam investigate any possible rule break and make a judgement on what evidence they find.

Ofc we could do it another way, pa team could give us the evidence and we could have a poll on AD

The one thing that does bother me slightly is the fact u mention a hardcode. Wouldn't a hardcode stop two allies sharing defence? eg main ally + wing ally. Especially since the ally numbers will be changing, I think there will be more co-operation between allies, but if u hardcode in tag deffing only it will co-operations next round.

I see two sides to the argument, I guess we just have to find the one side with least implications to game play and take that one.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 14:48   #26
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheShadowMan
I
The one thing that does bother me slightly is the fact u mention a hardcode. Wouldn't a hardcode stop two allies sharing defence? eg main ally + wing ally. Especially since the ally numbers will be changing, I think there will be more co-operation between allies, but if u hardcode in tag deffing only it will co-operations next round.
I think that is the key.

I think what we shouldn't be polling is whether to hard-code or not, but a poll on what the community wants.
Some sections believe that alliances should stand alone def -wise, and not relying on others.
Some sections believe that alliances should cross-defemd, therefor making the tag numbers useless.

Once we have decided that, then we know whether to hard-code it or not. If people wnat to cross-def with other alliances, remove the rule. If they wanna stand alone, hard-code it.
Maybe another poll is warrented to reflect that?

One thing to add though, if you hardcode it, then you ahve to actually lose clusters too, as it would just give a massive scope for blocking to take advantage of cluster def, and would lead to an even worse position.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 15:21   #27
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

If it is hardcoded in, you know that exilition won't play next round :P
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 15:37   #28
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Yes - hardcode it so planets in a tag can't defend/be defended outside of alliance and galaxy

Clusters are sh1t anyways & alliances are more fun if you play with your friends
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 15:40   #29
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

for the purpose the rule was created i can understand, the noob twist of the rule that 1up turds make of it is is a bit akward as usual gogo

voted for an remove the rule
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 15:57   #30
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

lol what does this have to do with 1up?... ohwell not seen 1 sensible post from robban yet so foolish of me to hope otherwise, my bad.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 15:59   #31
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Alliances are irrelvant to this posting.

This is about a rule that many players (exilition and 1up included) can't make sense of.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:03   #32
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

So what if you have a noobfriend that wants to try out pa, your ally leaders decide he can't join your ally caus he's too nooby, you can't go def him then?
that's just plain silly imo caus alot of my friends have tried out pa & i did def them whille they were n00bish & some of them ended up playing pa very active for a number of rounds.
If you hardcode this STUPID rule into the game then alot of people that do have friends in pa and want to give it a go are left all by themselves, even if their friends want to help them out they can't so imo this isn't a good way for pa to go.

What ever happened to being able to make your own choices in this game?
alot of people are going to become the victim of this because
a) some people always try to find a way to do stuff that isn't considered fair to better themselves
b) another group of people wants the choices you have in this game to be very limited, and this is also to suit their plans & goals to ultimatly better themselves again.

I agree that something has to be done about support-planets, but hardcoding a new rule that you can't def or recieve def outside of your ally tag is silly & vry stupid
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:09   #33
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Thats easily sorted by coding it so that people not in alliances can receive def from anyone.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:30   #34
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
Thats easily sorted by coding it so that people not in alliances can receive def from anyone.
Yes, but then those people can't return the favour or else they're considered to be a support-planet.

Wouldn't it be much easier & consumer-friendly to code a tool that scans the universe for planets that actually are support planets (un allied planet that only defs a certain ally, like the cath -viper planets we saw earlier this round) and get those reported to the MH's so they can look into it or even automaticly gets suspended?

Hardcoding def the way it's suggested is just plain bad
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:41   #35
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by wakey
Simply put we dont need further hardcoded attack/defence limits. If people want to defend people outside their tag then fine let them as some cooperation is good for the game and then leave it to the MH to deal with those whom take the piss with it and are clearly abusing the system
Amen! But, there is a need for clearer guidelines on what actually constitutes an offense in this context. Atm, alot of players are in the dark and not sure how much they can def their poor friends in a diff ally before they get shut down.

Shuu, silly rule, go away

Rather improve the MH tools to be able to search for planets with certain fleetcombinations and 0 (or close to 0) attack history
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:52   #36
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisto
Amen! But, there is a need for clearer guidelines on what actually constitutes an offense in this context. Atm, alot of players are in the dark and not sure how much they can def their poor friends in a diff ally before they get shut down.

Shuu, silly rule, go away

Rather improve the MH tools to be able to search for planets with certain fleetcombinations and 0 (or close to 0) attack history
No offense to the MHs but i dont think this thread would exist if the general playerbase felt safe from abusers of the game. It's far too easy to cheat and get away with it from what ive seen over the rounds. With paranoia & benifit of the doubt having been the saviour of many a cheat0rs planets.

And yeah, ive just majorly generalised there.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 16:55   #37
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
Yes, but then those people can't return the favour or else they're considered to be a support-planet.
It's rather unlikely that a brand new planet's defence would be meaningful though. Once they reach the point where it is meaningful they'd almost certainly be able to join some sort of alliance. That said I dislike the horrible discrimination against anyone who wants to play solo. To pick a random example from nowhere in r13 I played without an alliance. One of the few people I would consider a good friend in this cosy community of ours was top 100 that round (hello jester <3). If, towards the end of the round, he was being fleet caught and asked for me to help him out I would have without a second thought. If this had happened five or six times I would have helped every single time. I find it rather sad that under this new rule I would probably be closed for doing that.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 17:11   #38
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

A brand new planet's defence might be meaningfull in the start of the round though, when even the smallest bit of fleet can mean the difference between death & survival.
As for the rest of your post, i agree completly.

With this new rule in place it will also mean that friends in other allies won't be able to help you out if you get incoming. I Know certain people in other allies that would help me out if I had incoming & they could do anything to stop it. Since when is this a bad thing?
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 17:23   #39
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

i voted get rid of it.
if i wanna defend friends i should be able to, pa would be fking boring if it wasnt for the community, and i think a move like hardcoding or even keeping the rule is fking that up. as long as your single purpose aint deffing 1 single ally or 1 single planet i dont see why you should get closed.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 17:27   #40
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Banned
I voted for hardcoding it, but I only think it should be done for the free round. Free rounds are notoriously problematic for stuff like this. If it doesn't **** up the round too much, it should be considered for PAN.
I voted for 'leave it as it is', though I agree with Banned here.(for free rounds)

Talking about this round, I don't really see why everyone is making such a big deal about this though. I know eXi atleast hardly had def from outside the tag, despite what everyone is trying to make ppl believe, other then our 4 scanners of which most got closed.
Only times we called in outside tag def is when we got fleetcatched, which happened about 3-5 times a day last week(s).

And with that amount of fleetcatches (3 times an avg of 7000 marauders which will need 20k ghosts min. to recall) makes a need of 60k ghosts.
What would you do? Let them through or try to get as much defence as possible?
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 17:30   #41
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
Yes, but then those people can't return the favour or else they're considered to be a support-planet.

Wouldn't it be much easier & consumer-friendly to code a tool that scans the universe for planets that actually are support planets (un allied planet that only defs a certain ally, like the cath -viper planets we saw earlier this round) and get those reported to the MH's so they can look into it or even automaticly gets suspended?

Hardcoding def the way it's suggested is just plain bad
yes but how on earth could that be tracked?

and for example. say i play a 1up support planet. How hard is it to ask a random HC for some Angel coords so i can send my fleet at daytime to them for a tick or 2. then i defend more then just 1up and multihunters can't close me for being a 1up support planet. all it needs is simple fleetlaunches to others when fleets aint busy.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 17:31   #42
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by ComradeRob
My main concern is having a clear rule that players can understand. I don't trust PA team to enforce consistent judgements, so the objective of any rule should be to remove any element of arbitrary judgement from the process.

For that reason, either get rid of the rule or make it clear (by banning all out-of-gal/alliance def).
indeed regulations should be clear this rule just leaves anything open. also should be questioned if this rule is in place at all. patching up the eula with new patches wont make it better.

@johnnybegood/teqhie corret me if i'm wrong but we started playing together in different alliances we covered our asses a long time ago also even while we were totally newbies we still put effort in putting Logbat safe. This would now be considered as support even while we both (atleast I for sure) had big fun in the game.

This rule should clearly be removed to leave the game for what it is. i play for freedome for my way of playing and not by a bunch of crappy rules which leave everything open and clearly get people deleted without proper reasons.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 17:33   #43
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoom
I voted for 'leave it as it is', though I agree with Banned here.(for free rounds)

Talking about this round, I don't really see why everyone is making such a big deal about this though. I know eXi atleast hardly had def from outside the tag, despite what everyone is trying to make ppl believe, other then our 4 scanners of which most got closed.
Only times we called in outside tag def is when we got fleetcatched, which happened about 3-5 times a day last week(s).
multihunters who actually did have access to see all defences didn't agree to this tho which is why the rule was started.

just hardcode it all or allow alliances to have as many people as they want. it's pointless to leave it else with the current setup.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 17:34   #44
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by cypher
lol what does this have to do with 1up?... ohwell not seen 1 sensible post from robban yet so foolish of me to hope otherwise, my bad.

well its mostly those who ispro 1up who wants all this hardcoded shit in the first place

atm i cant play with my rl m8s either cos then i might def him or log in at his place

pa isnt anything i recomend to noone really as all the wuss ppl screams cheats 24/7 about all and everything


edit: there is a diff on can and cant sometimes
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 17:43   #45
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by cypher
multihunters who actually did have access to see all defences didn't agree to this tho which is why the rule was started.

just hardcode it all or allow alliances to have as many people as they want. it's pointless to leave it else with the current setup.
Got a point there yes, though I still don't see why so many people are moaning about it. The rule as it is works fine now imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by robban1
well its mostly those who ispro 1up who wants all this hardcoded shit in the first place

atm i cant play with my rl m8s either cos then i might def him or log in at his place

pa isnt anything i recomend to noone really as all the wuss ppl screams cheats 24/7 about all and everything


edit: there is a diff on can and cant sometimes
Errr I see ppl from eXi/Angels being for/against aswell. Not really something to 'blame' 1up for.
And well with rl m8's I doubt they will get incs every single night where you have to def them. It's allowed to def a few times, just not when you have the purpose of deffing them entire round. (or something like that)
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 17:51   #46
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

Quote:
Originally Posted by n4m3l355
@johnnybegood/teqhie corret me if i'm wrong but we started playing together in different alliances we covered our asses a long time ago also even while we were totally newbies we still put effort in putting Logbat safe. This would now be considered as support even while we both (atleast I for sure) had big fun in the game.
I think you may have me confused with someone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cypher
yes but how on earth could that be tracked?

and for example. say i play a 1up support planet. How hard is it to ask a random HC for some Angel coords so i can send my fleet at daytime to them for a tick or 2. then i defend more then just 1up and multihunters can't close me for being a 1up support planet. all it needs is simple fleetlaunches to others when fleets aint busy.
Checking the co-ords you're sending too and see if they had incoming at that time plus checking if you landed would probably suffice them from the mulihunters being able to tell the difference standpoint.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 18:03   #47
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
To pick a random example from nowhere in r13 I played without an alliance. One of the few people I would consider a good friend in this cosy community of ours was top 100 that round (hello jester <3). If, towards the end of the round, he was being fleet caught and asked for me to help him out I would have without a second thought. If this had happened five or six times I would have helped every single time. I find it rather sad that under this new rule I would probably be closed for doing that.
One of the cases of the few spoiling it for the majority
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 19:00   #48
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

JBG im sure you could talk to the multihunters in that case and they would've let you.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 19:04   #49
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

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Originally Posted by sniborp
JBG im sure you could talk to the multihunters in that case and they would've let you.
I doubt it. Will each exilition (i'm just using them because their name has been linked with all this so much) planet be allowed one personal friend not in an alliance who can send them defence? Will they be allowed more than one, after all most people have more than one good friend in PA.
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Unread 20 Dec 2005, 20:04   #50
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Re: The Support Planets Rule

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Originally Posted by robban1
well its mostly those who ispro 1up who wants all this hardcoded shit in the first place

atm i cant play with my rl m8s either cos then i might def him or log in at his place

pa isnt anything i recomend to noone really as all the wuss ppl screams cheats 24/7 about all and everything


edit: there is a diff on can and cant sometimes
heh well once again you are totally wrong. i know many people in 1up who are fully opposed to the rule aswell, same as in other alliances.
every alliance has people in favour of the rule and against the rule. It's utterly stupid to call this a pro 1up rule but ohwell. Suppose it's about all you can do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stoom
Got a point there yes, though I still don't see why so many people are moaning about it. The rule as it is works fine now imo.
yes and no, as people have stated it's impossible to check everything for everyone from a multihunter point of view. further then that i can't understand the current problem either.. the rule is ok i suppose.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood

Checking the co-ords you're sending too and see if they had incoming at that time plus checking if you landed would probably suffice them from the mulihunters being able to tell the difference standpoint.
problem is multihunters would need 72 hours in 1 day to be able to check all of that for all planets, hardcoding it just solves the problem and there is no room left for discussion.
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