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Unread 27 Oct 2005, 09:49   #51
Bashar
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Re: Any good reasons not to make alliance tags and/or value public?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan
dude, if it's such an overwhelming advantage why don't people do this already? it's a simple matter of a) asking an hc/mo what ally your potential targets are in, b) looking at an arbiter yourself or c) asking a friend who has access to an arby. most decent players already have the chance, they just don't use it because the knowledge isn't worth begging for each and every time.
Because MO's might not know and HC might not say, and they wouldn't have the time to tell everyone. Some people do ask, but most don't because they are given the information they need.

Quote:
do individual mo's consistently choose weak alliance targets for themselves in gal raids? ( this would be rather informative)
In 1up MO's don't have access to that information, and targets are run through AG's who don't prepick. As such, targets are every man for himself, and getting a weak alliance target when you are the only one who knows which they are is pot luck. Best bet is to try get the target most suited to your fleet.

Quote:
also, i think it's reasonable to predict there would be an increase in actual wars if tags were public. alliances would target other alliances more.
I think it would be more reasonable to predict that wars would be shorter, and when one side got the other hand, the other would quickly succumb and have no way back. Wars would be VERY decisive.

Quote:
one final point, some of us would actually prefer to hit people from larger alliances during a gal raid, because not everyone is a pussy
Just check the bold I put in, I think that shows where the first flaw in this argument is. Of course SOME would, but it's the others that matter here. The second flaw is that it means that larger alliances would get a lot more incomming, which is a complete contradiction of:

Quote:
most decent players already have the chance, they just don't use it because the knowledge isn't worth begging for each and every time.
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Unread 27 Oct 2005, 10:28   #52
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Re: Any good reasons not to make alliance tags and/or value public?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cypher
tbh no offence kjel, but you're hardly a top player (as you stated often enough yourself). top players pick their targets with alot of things in mind.
personally if i see 2 targets 1 being f-crew and 1 being exi with the same fleet and same roids i would pick the f-crew planet which is the whole problem. and everyone would do that. now if my alliance goes to war with exi i would hit the other one, but let's be realistic not alot of alliances will say from the start we are at war with a top rated alliance.

besides that keeping up with allianceswitchers and stuff can be quite a hard task as it should be. what's the point in it to make that public at once? If people feel this strongly maybe add a feature where HC can decide if they want their info to be public or not but not make it so they won't have a choice.
As i've said before pa is a game with alot of aspects what's the point in constantly trying to remove then and constantly making it easier for people to spend less and less time in it? As far as i can understand jolt wants people to be more active as they get more money from it. Which is all that matters lately or so it seems.

as i think arfy said if you want to get rid of all the top players who spend time in this game and make it so easy for new players why not just tell them all to quit?

Planetarion is about activity. Activity gets rewarded. it can be by having good intel, nice friends, nice planet, whatever but without activity and effort you won't have anything and you shouldn't have anything and that's the way it's always been.

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None taken, Cypher, I indeed agree that I've never really played a top planet. It's not my cup of tea nor is it my ambition either. Eventhough this round that might change (or atleast I'm gonna try my best to play a decent planet for a change).

So I can't look at it from your point of view, the one of the huge planets. I can however look at it from an alliance command position and eventhough there's no "real" reason that it should be BETTER to show alliancetags, there is imo absolutely no valid reason why not to either.

Name me your valid reasons and I'll counter them. All the reasons I've read so far aren't depending on whether the tag is shown or not. Here are the ones I heared so far ...

Remark: Alliances will get targetted far sooner.
Answer: Alliances will get targetted far sooner anyway this round. It doesn't take much effort to know a complete memberlist of your enemy.

Remark: Allianceless planets or those of smaller alliances will get waved even more.
Answer: No, they'll be hit hard and roided often nway, Intel is easy to gather, pple will find out what alliance he is if they want to know it, it just takes them MORE EFFORTS if there weren't any tags.

Pple proposed a change, I answer with that I wouldn't mind if it happened. I wouldn't mind if it didn't happen either.
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Unread 27 Oct 2005, 10:34   #53
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Re: Any good reasons not to make alliance tags and/or value public?

as bashar said why change a working thing?

if pa has 20k planets or more i agree put back tags to make it more fun. but with these few planets it's not good for the game..

and duncan before you slag off people and act all stupid think who those people are and what knowledge they have of top alliances and what you have. because you come over as a very stupid guy.
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Unread 27 Oct 2005, 14:07   #54
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Re: Any good reasons not to make alliance tags and/or value public?

Yes I want public tags. No, I don't want them when we have 2k players only. 20k planets and we can talk about it again (or even simply make it visible).

For now PA should focus on getting more players again instead of adding features and changing gameplay aspects.
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Unread 27 Oct 2005, 14:57   #55
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Re: Any good reasons not to make alliance tags and/or value public?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kjeldoran
Remark: Alliances will get targetted far sooner.
Answer: Alliances will get targetted far sooner anyway this round. It doesn't take much effort to know a complete memberlist of your enemy.

Remark: Allianceless planets or those of smaller alliances will get waved even more.
Answer: No, they'll be hit hard and roided often nway, Intel is easy to gather, pple will find out what alliance he is if they want to know it, it just takes them MORE EFFORTS if there weren't any tags.
Top alliances have mapped out who the other top alliances are pretty soon anyway. All it will mean is the smaller alliances will hit other small alliances more often (not hitting the bigger alliances by accident, as happens now). This means all smaller alliances will get hit more, and bigger alliances less (bigger alliances get hit at a time when theHC decides anyway, having public tags wont change this).
If bigger alliances get hit less, they will move away from the smaller alliances quicker, and then, one quick war betwen the bigger alliances will end the round as a competition.

And to say allianceless/tiny alliance players will get just as much incoming is a nonsence. Its quite clear everyone will bash them for easy roids as soon as they can, and they will end up with even more incoming than usual.
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Unread 27 Oct 2005, 15:37   #56
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Re: Any good reasons not to make alliance tags and/or value public?

The allianceless planets will suffer early on especially, the first 150 ticks or so when everyone is just after easy roids to get a start over the enemy, who would you rather try get them from, an ND or an allianceless?
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Unread 27 Oct 2005, 15:43   #57
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Re: Any good reasons not to make alliance tags and/or value public?

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Fish
The allianceless planets will suffer early on especially, the first 150 ticks or so when everyone is just after easy roids to get a start over the enemy, who would you rather try get them from, an ND or an allianceless?
That's a trick question if you asked that 2 rounds ago m8
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Unread 27 Oct 2005, 19:46   #58
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Re: Any good reasons not to make alliance tags and/or value public?

Quote:
OK Duncan, I'll bow to your superior knowledge and experience of how big alliances work. You clearly know all about how they work and what's needed to take an alliance to victory in a round, and I am clearly an uninformed pleb.
clearly it's the opposite. i was just putting some opposing thoughts out there. as most people's arguments here seem to be based on gut feelings rather then statistics and proof, i figured they wouldn't be too out of line.

i have insulted you? or as cypher puts it i'm 'acting all stupid' and making myself look like 'a very stupid guy'? sorry m8, my intent really wasn't to make myself seem more knowedgable then you, or put you down. obviously your opinions regarding PA hold alot more weight then mine. i just thought it was funny how you describe gathering cords as an art form that's very special to you.

with that said, i would rather be educated then dismissed as a drooling tard by the pa community. please correct statements as you see fit, and if you feel i am unworthy to post here further, let me know and i'll leave. i can waste time doing other things.

Quote:
Would still be nice to see your justification for dismissing intel as irrelevant though. You must know something I don't.
i never said it was irrelevant. cord gathering is actually necessary to be successful. i say it has little bearing on the outcome of the round because top alliances will have full lists in a short period of time. therefore removing the absolute need for this type of intel will not really make a round less predictable, which you claim would.

please explain how cord gathering is a complex process, and what percentage of the community gets true enjoyment from it.
for those who like to betray others, you can always be a spy.

the current system seems to hurt the galaxy quite a bit. just to repeat, "i believe the mixing of groups and the forming of new friendships or mutually benificial agreements is what keeps the community going, something which has steadily dwindled. encouraging gals to co-operate seems like a step in the right direction. i would say making new friends to work out gal strategies and meet goals is a better gaming experience overall -- this is what hooks new people into PA."
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Unread 27 Oct 2005, 20:12   #59
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Re: Any good reasons not to make alliance tags and/or value public?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bashar
Because MO's might not know and HC might not say, and they wouldn't have the time to tell everyone. Some people do ask, but most don't because they are given the information they need.
yeah exactly, that piece of information isn't valuable enough...

when alliances attack alliances (which i think would happen more frequently) the smaller alliances are safer. they can also have the privilage of fighting their own wars and have the basic knowlege of what's going on.

"personally if i see 2 targets 1 being f-crew and 1 being exi with the same fleet and same roids i would pick the f-crew planet which is the whole problem. and everyone would do that." -cypher
during gal raids, the likelyhood of finding multiple targets with similar roids and fleet weaknesses from diffrent alliances would be rare don't you think? let's face it, f-crew individuals don't play the same way 1uppers do.

Quote:
In 1up MO's don't have access to that information, and targets are run through AG's who don't prepick. As such, targets are every man for himself, and getting a weak alliance target when you are the only one who knows which they are is pot luck. Best bet is to try get the target most suited to your fleet.
doesn't really provide an idea of how targetting behavior would change. when choosing a target, do you think # of roids and fleet compostion are more important factors then what alliance they're from?

Quote:
I think it would be more reasonable to predict that wars would be shorter, and when one side got the other hand, the other would quickly succumb and have no way back. Wars would be VERY decisive.
hmm i could see this happening. having tags would be alot better if the universe wasn't so damn small. do you think having shorter rounds could be an option?

Quote:
Just check the bold I put in, I think that shows where the first flaw in this argument is. Of course SOME would, but it's the others that matter here.
my point is that not everyone would do it, as many people here indicate
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Unread 27 Oct 2005, 21:56   #60
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Re: Any good reasons not to make alliance tags and/or value public?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan
clearly it's the opposite. i was just putting some opposing thoughts out there. as most people's arguments here seem to be based on gut feelings rather then statistics and proof, i figured they wouldn't be too out of line.
Errr..... right, well 'opposing thoughts' would usually be phrased different to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan
hahahahah i just reread this thread and i have to respond to this because the words and phrasing you chose are ****ing hilarious.
This is clearly stronger than an opposing thought, it is instead a complete dismissal of what I said. It also appears to me to be based on
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan
gut feelings rather than statistics and proof
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan
i have insulted you? or as cypher puts it i'm 'acting all stupid' and making myself look like 'a very stupid guy'? sorry m8, my intent really wasn't to make myself seem more knowedgable then you, or put you down. obviously your opinions regarding PA hold alot more weight then mine. i just thought it was funny how you describe gathering cords as an art form that's very special to you.
I'm guessing this involves the same level of sarcasm as my post. However, I doin't recall describing gathering coords as either an art form or special to me, us or whatever you meant by 'you'. I do however recall you saying:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan
intel gathering at the moment is like a well oiled machine for big alliances.
To me this makes it seem like you being a little hypocritical here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan
i never said it was irrelevant. cord gathering is actually necessary to be successful. i say it has little bearing on the outcome of the round because top alliances will have full lists in a short period of time. therefore removing the absolute need for this type of intel will not really make a round less predictable, which you claim would.
There is a big difference between big alliances having coord lists at command level and the whole universe having it. I don't care what point of view anyone has on whether they should be public or not, I can absolutely guarantee that them becoming public would have a noticable impact on the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan
please explain how cord gathering is a complex process, and what percentage of the community gets true enjoyment from it.
for those who like to betray others, you can always be a spy.
Did I say it was a complex process? I don't remember doing so. I don't know what percentage of the community gets enjoyment from it, but it is a part of the game, and I know many people who enjoy it a lot. Intel and security are huge parts of the game. The main part of the game to me is politics. The politics between you and your alliance, you and your galaxy etc. Taking away the ability to hide takes away a very large part of the ability to deceive. When everyons cards are on the table to start with, there is no point in playing poker.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan
the current system seems to hurt the galaxy quite a bit. just to repeat, "i believe the mixing of groups and the forming of new friendships or mutually benificial agreements is what keeps the community going, something which has steadily dwindled. encouraging gals to co-operate seems like a step in the right direction. i would say making new friends to work out gal strategies and meet goals is a better gaming experience overall -- this is what hooks new people into PA."
I agree entirely! But I think it should be your own choice how you start those friendships, how quick you form them and indeed if you want to form them. Forming friends because you have no choice is not usually a good way to form lasting friendships. People should have the choice to form new friendships, they shouldn't be forced into it. People should be allowed to play the game, not forced to play it in a certain way or to carry out certain actions. That's not playing.
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Unread 27 Oct 2005, 22:16   #61
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Re: Any good reasons not to make alliance tags and/or value public?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan
when alliances attack alliances (which i think would happen more frequently) the smaller alliances are safer. they can also have the privilage of fighting their own wars and have the basic knowlege of what's going on.
Wars would be far blooider, far quicker and far more decisive. Imagine you have a geographic area. Say for the sake of argument a wooded area, say 10 square miles. Within that area you have two sides at war. The first scenario, both sides know exactly where the other is; they can see all their positions and know what firepower they have available there, any changes in the positions and they know instantly. Second scenario, both sides fight a guerilla war, neither knows where the other is based to start with, and movement of positions is difficult to see, neither side ever knows for sure if they've missed a position or got one wrong somewhere. Tell me which scenario would give the longest war and in the game context the most enjoyable: the brute force throw everything at them and try to overpower them or the cloak and dagger approach of using tactics, traps, intelligence and strategy alongside a calculated use of power. I know which I think would be the most interesting. Also ask yourself what happens to the loser in each scenario; one allows the loser to regroup better and to lick their wounds whilst preparing to have another try, the other leads to a very decisive victory and stagnation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan
during gal raids, the likelyhood of finding multiple targets with similar roids and fleet weaknesses from diffrent alliances would be rare don't you think? let's face it, f-crew individuals don't play the same way 1uppers do.,
You assume that peoples targetting is rigid "I want a target with the exact roids and value specified". It ain't like that, people consider all factors and weigh them up. If someone calculated they had 3x the chance of getting through on f-crew targets than on 1up, and the f-crew targets had half the roids, they'd go for the f-crew every time as they'd get half as many roids again as they would attcking the 1up. People weigh up everything and look long term, you have to look at the wider picture and you have to balance the pros and cons. Roids and value are not determinates, they are factors; pros and cons. People would vary what they are willing to hit based on perceived chance of success.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan
doesn't really provide an idea of how targetting behavior would change. when choosing a target, do you think # of roids and fleet compostion are more important factors then what alliance they're from?
I never implied either was more or less important, I said that the alliance would have an affect. The whole point of this isn't to work out a formula for what people would attack, it's to consider whether or not a certain factor would be included in said formula. If it would, then it's something that is worthy of consideration.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan
hmm i could see this happening. having tags would be alot better if the universe wasn't so damn small. do you think having shorter rounds could be an option?
No. The game is designed for the current length, you would have to redesign the whole gameplay, which would alter all reasons for bothering to have this conversation. It is not feasible I would say. Also, I couldn't see Jolt dropping the price for shorter rounds, which would weaken the community (partly because of my complete irrational dislike of Jolt due to their community approach, and partially because there are minimum payment levels).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duncan
my point is that not everyone would do it, as many people here indicate
It doesn't take everyone to have an effect. The counter argument to the idea of them being public is the effects it would have. Discussing how many people are involved in creating those effects is arguing semantics, if the effects exist, our arguments hold. It doesn't take the whole universe to affect something. A sizable number of people would do it, I'd say over half (plenty would claim not to but still be sub-consciously influenced).
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Unread 2 Nov 2005, 16:27   #62
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Re: Any good reasons not to make alliance tags and/or value public?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forest
Top alliances have mapped out who the other top alliances are pretty soon anyway. All it will mean is the smaller alliances will hit other small alliances more often (not hitting the bigger alliances by accident, as happens now). This means all smaller alliances will get hit more, and bigger alliances less (bigger alliances get hit at a time when theHC decides anyway, having public tags wont change this).
If bigger alliances get hit less, they will move away from the smaller alliances quicker, and then, one quick war betwen the bigger alliances will end the round as a competition.

And to say allianceless/tiny alliance players will get just as much incoming is a nonsence. Its quite clear everyone will bash them for easy roids as soon as they can, and they will end up with even more incoming than usual.
if its the smaller alliances hitting each other though then they will cap roids which surly makes them feel better?
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Unread 2 Nov 2005, 16:46   #63
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Re: Any good reasons not to make alliance tags and/or value public?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
if its the smaller alliances hitting each other though then they will cap roids which surly makes them feel better?
/me bashes head against wall.

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Unread 2 Nov 2005, 17:08   #64
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Re: Any good reasons not to make alliance tags and/or value public?

Upon reading this thread for the first time(-ish).

Bashar
cypher
Soveh

Oh dear...agreeing with cypher...whatever next

Duncan

Mate, play Planetarion at HC level, where intel-gathering is important in your role, and then you'll understand just how damn cool it is. Putting an alliance to a difficult planet/relay channel after hours of reading through news scans and JGPs feels awesome. It replaces the sex I miss out on because of PA.

Kal

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
if its the smaller alliances hitting each other though then they will cap roids which surly makes them feel better?
So if they're all losing roids, they'll become weaker in value and so be less able to compete with the 'big boys'. Oooooooooh yeah baby that's the way we want to go.....................oh.
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Unread 2 Nov 2005, 17:20   #65
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Re: Any good reasons not to make alliance tags and/or value public?

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Kal


So if they're all losing roids, they'll become weaker in value and so be less able to compete with the 'big boys'. Oooooooooh yeah baby that's the way we want to go.....................oh.
they would also all be gaining roids if they were attacking each other and hence gaining XP - its possible to gian score even if you loose roids all the time.

Also I agree in the context of the current game this probably won;t work well - however we have a pan for the future that may well include this sort of thing.
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Unread 2 Nov 2005, 17:21   #66
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Re: Any good reasons not to make alliance tags and/or value public?

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to furball again.



I should prolly add that to my sig

Thanks mate, excellent summary

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
however we have a pan for the future that may well include this sort of thing.
Panning for gold, or for roids?
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