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Unread 15 Oct 2005, 13:45   #1
Shyne
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Secondary Bash Limit

What about a secondary bash limit, set at 60% of a player's score.

They can't attack planets under 40%, and the ones they attack under 60% lose roids but no XP is gained.

Or similar?
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Unread 15 Oct 2005, 14:10   #2
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

It's hard enough for the top planets to gain XP as it is, you're just punishing people for being big there :/
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Unread 15 Oct 2005, 14:14   #3
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

:crazyxmas:
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Unread 15 Oct 2005, 16:09   #4
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Fish
It's hard enough for the top planets to gain XP as it is, you're just punishing people for being big there :/
indeed...

before you make such suggestions try actually getting a top planet and see how hard it is to get XP.
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Unread 16 Oct 2005, 03:00   #5
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Why assume I've never been a top planet?

Do people have nothing better to do than make petty insults? Even The_Fish was civil \o/
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Unread 16 Oct 2005, 07:34   #6
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shyne
Why assume I've never been a top planet?
Because they don't remember seeing you on the top 100 lists from recent rounds.

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Unread 16 Oct 2005, 10:21   #7
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Just because Shyne (or indeed anyone for that matter) has or hasnt had a planet in the top 100 recently doesnt make his(/her) point moot or irrelevent. I am astonished that people who regularly contribute to this forum are implying such a principle.

Nevertheless, the point of XP is that it is relative. A smaller valued player attacking a larger value player will recieve more XP than vice versa - we all know that. It seems reasonable, to me, that top players should be using their 'skills' and suchlike to attack other top ranked players - yes, attacking top players means a greater likelihood of meeting organised defence, well structured fleets, retalliation and so forth, all resulting in less landings to capture roids. But that is the point - R3 was a classic example of exponential growth as there were virtually no restrictions on who you could attack (and thus be attacked by). Such a situation isnt seen as frequently anymore, which i think is a good thing.

I would be more inclined to support a proposal that suggests an alteration of the 'hard' and 'soft' attack limits - ie, cannot attack anyone less than 35%, but between 35% and 50% you receive negative XP for any roids you capture. This would provide some room for strategy (the ultimate high value/low score combo through attacking people 35-50% of your value) etc. Using more 'market based' or dynamic systems to change the behaviour of players, rather than drawing a line in the sand and saying 40% is protected, but 41% is free for all.

Top players, who tend to be most interested in gaining XP (and at the very least wouldnt want to attack for -ve XP) would see the 50% as effectively the bottom barrier. Quite frankly, any 'top' player who cant successfully attack anyone half their size or larger shouldnt really be worthy imo - but that is obviously tempered by the effectiveness of the opposing alliance(s).

I like the principle in general, but not the specific application
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Unread 16 Oct 2005, 18:12   #8
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Quote:
Just because Shyne (or indeed anyone for that matter) has or hasnt had a planet in the top 100 recently doesnt make his(/her) point moot or irrelevent. I am astonished that people who regularly contribute to this forum are implying such a principle.
It was meant with no offense to Shyne, but it is a point, that I beleive you have to be a top ranker to fully understand. I mean specific to the top 30, but even at the bottom end of the top 30 spectrum you don't expierence it fully. it's about three thousand times easier to gain XP when you're ranked between top 2000 and top 40. You can attack targets that high higher value. The only reason the top 30 or 40 planets match the rest of the top 100, is because they gain more roids per attack *AND* attack more than the rest of the planets. Otherwise it's near impossible to get decent XP. In fact, top planets aren't more intrested in XP than value, because value is easier for them to get. If you look at a finals rankings list, XP tends to be a smaller percentage of the top planets score than the universal average.

Quote:
I would be more inclined to support a proposal that suggests an alteration of the 'hard' and 'soft' attack limits - ie, cannot attack anyone less than 35%, but between 35% and 50% you receive negative XP for any roids you capture. This would provide some room for strategy (the ultimate high value/low score combo through attacking people 35-50% of your value) etc. Using more 'market based' or dynamic systems to change the behaviour of players, rather than drawing a line in the sand and saying 40% is protected, but 41% is free for all.
Planetarion has a 'silent majority' (or at least 40%) of people who don't join alliances, aren't on IRC consistantly, and honestly aren't *too* assicioated with the game. When they attack people, they simply see the orange on a person's name and say "oops too small, lemme find another target." A sliding negative-XP scale leads to certain problems : Newbies (or others) who attack under the positve XP bash cap, and start getting lower scores than values (i.e. first attack under the +XP cap)--negative XP in general would be a problem. Secondly, people who randomly play the game ("silent majority") who randomly attack targets would be digging themselves into a hole (woohoo i found a more polite metaphor to express the origional one).

-Nitin
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Unread 16 Oct 2005, 21:35   #9
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitinA
Planetarion has a 'silent majority' (or at least 40%) of people who don't join alliances, aren't on IRC consistantly, and honestly aren't *too* assicioated with the game. When they attack people, they simply see the orange on a person's name and say "oops too small, lemme find another target." A sliding negative-XP scale leads to certain problems : Newbies (or others) who attack under the positve XP bash cap, and start getting lower scores than values (i.e. first attack under the +XP cap)--negative XP in general would be a problem. Secondly, people who randomly play the game ("silent majority") who randomly attack targets would be digging themselves into a hole (woohoo i found a more polite metaphor to express the origional one).
I am inclined to think that it wouldnt take casual planets long to realise that attacking people one third to one half your value would result in negative XP (still may result in negative score, as there is often an increase in value to compensate) - particularly if it was well communicated. Such as including it as part of the battlereport - "This attack led to a decrease in our XP as the planet you attacked was below 50% of your value!" etc.
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Unread 16 Oct 2005, 22:27   #10
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by cypher
indeed...

before you make such suggestions try actually getting a top planet and see how hard it is to get XP.
Umh.. and your point is?
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Unread 16 Oct 2005, 23:32   #11
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitinA
Planetarion has a 'silent majority' (or at least 40%) of people who don't join alliances, aren't on IRC consistantly, and honestly aren't *too* assicioated with the game. When they attack people, they simply see the orange on a person's name and say "oops too small, lemme find another target." A sliding negative-XP scale leads to certain problems : Newbies (or others) who attack under the positve XP bash cap, and start getting lower scores than values (i.e. first attack under the +XP cap)--negative XP in general would be a problem. Secondly, people who randomly play the game ("silent majority") who randomly attack targets would be digging themselves into a hole (woohoo i found a more polite metaphor to express the origional one).
-Nitin
Change the colours then. Orange for 35% and below, and yellow for 35%-50%
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Unread 16 Oct 2005, 23:32   #12
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

His point is that this idea would punish the top players for doing well.
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Unread 17 Oct 2005, 02:16   #13
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Fish
His point is that this idea would punish the top players for doing well.
nope, i think he actually is looking for ways to enable more n00bs to grow easier
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Unread 17 Oct 2005, 09:49   #14
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Umh.. and your point is?
my point is that it IS actually very hard to grow once you are big. it IS very hard to roid once you are big because the only way you CAN roid is by hitting very big guys who mostly get defence. even IF you get through for not too many losses xp won't pay back as you hardly get xp once you are already big. If you never played big planets however you never experienced this as nitina said. I'm not slagging anyone off, but if you don't know how hard it actually is to become that big then you don't know what you are saying. because of the xp system it is already alot easier for smaller people to grow fast then it is for bigger people to grow. It is simply just a matter of how you attack. If the smaller people would just attack different they could grow much more easily. Instead of punishing active/high ranking players again for simply being active and spending time in this game.

The key to doing well in pa is and always should be activity. This game has been made easier for lower ranking players all the time. why even push that limit further? for example last round my 'lowest' possible target at last 1 or 2 weeks was ranked #20. How on earth can you even think about lowering bash limits even further?
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Unread 18 Oct 2005, 09:04   #15
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by cypher
Instead of punishing active/high ranking players again for simply being active and spending time in this game.
So... instead we should return to the old system where the top players experience exponential growth so that after a short period of time they become untouchable for the vast majority of players, but still find it impossible to attack eachother? You might be 'rewarded' for your activity, but many people's experience with SimPlanet at those levels would suggest that isnt an ideal solution.

To be honest, i dont think you have spent enough time at the other end of the scale - at the bottom. This last round that went by, i went through all that in a galaxy that had mates in it and often had people willing to defend in gal. It wasnt fantastic, but i still got trashed in a severe fashion. I can tell you right now, it is absolutely no fun to get incoming from people twice (or more) of your value attacking you for the rather pitiful amount of roids that i had. And in multiple waves as well - 25% of 200 roids is bugger all, and 25% of the remainder is even less. Watching a galaxymate of mine (who tended to init more roids than i, but not significantly so) get about 8 waves on him every second night is just totally rediculous. Still, i'm sure that you dont really have a clue about the plight of the silent majority of players who do not frequent your circles.

Quote:
How on earth can you even think about lowering bash limits even further?
Your case is an extreme example, but even so you would still have been 2.5 times larger than the player ranked at #20 and thus you should have been able to take him on - yes i do understand the situation with alliances interfering as i mentioned in my earlier post. But what isnt an extreme example are people with next to no roids, in far flung galaxies, being regularly trashed for little or no other reason other than they are there. If you are even semi active in PA, its not fun having to rebuild your planet every time you log in, only for it to be destroyed again before you log in the next day. Granted, the situation has improved significantly with the more attack orientated game and the introduction of XP - there is now method ofr the people being bashed to still get something out of this game.

Furthermore, by having a hard and soft minimum attack limit would mean that you, cypher, could attack people up to 30% of your value - but it will cost you in XP unless they are over 50%. Indeed, you should be jumping for joy as now you have a whole new lot of targets available for you! The choices open to players are quite clear; take on someone more your own size (>50% of your value) and gain roids and XP. Take on someone you should be able to beat hands down (50>x>30%) then you will get your roids at the cost of XP as you should be able to win anyway without much in the way of skill, which XP represents (at least to an extent). And anyone who is no threat to you at all - particularly new and casual players - will be protected by the hard 30% limit.

Quite frankly, i think its a good system as it protects those who most need protecting, discourages people attacking others on the small side of your bash limit - though you can still do so if you choose (ie you are desperate for roids) - and still gives virtually the same number of open targets to get roids and XP from but you can expect more of a tough fight.

Cypher, remember that there are other players outside the top 10, 50 or 100. Just because you cant see them on the leaderboards (or care much about them), doesnt mean they arent there. tbh, i think suggestions in the common interest of all players should be given at least serious consideration, and should not be rejected solely because it makes playing at the very top more challenging. I reckon you should revel in the challenge of breaking through the defences of the top 20 more, if you knew that the environment made it alot harder than ever before to get into the top 20 and to stay there. But perhaps you are just looking for the easy way to win at this game. :\
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Unread 18 Oct 2005, 09:25   #16
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by cypher
my point is that it IS actually very hard to grow once you are big. it IS very hard to roid once you are big because the only way you CAN roid is by hitting very big guys who mostly get defence. even IF you get through for not too many losses xp won't pay back as you hardly get xp once you are already big. If you never played big planets however you never experienced this as nitina said. I'm not slagging anyone off, but if you don't know how hard it actually is to become that big then you don't know what you are saying. because of the xp system it is already alot easier for smaller people to grow fast then it is for bigger people to grow. It is simply just a matter of how you attack. If the smaller people would just attack different they could grow much more easily. Instead of punishing active/high ranking players again for simply being active and spending time in this game.

The key to doing well in pa is and always should be activity. This game has been made easier for lower ranking players all the time. why even push that limit further? for example last round my 'lowest' possible target at last 1 or 2 weeks was ranked #20. How on earth can you even think about lowering bash limits even further?

So in a way you are saying "Spinner did a great job in making the universe tighter together as it's harder for big boys to get more score and easier for the little guy to come closer"

Wasn't that the whole idea ?
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Unread 18 Oct 2005, 12:45   #17
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

that's not what i'm saying at all and as for your first part UN i don't mean making it easier for high ranking players... but surely there is no reason to make it harder for them to grow... and even if they feed on xp alone how does that make them harder to hit?

personally i try and hit big people when i am big myself and i try same when i am small however the situation in pa is often enough that you simply can't because of fleet compositions or other factors like alliance politics.

and i'm not saying that it shouldn't be harder for big people..but trying to make it impossible for them to grow doesn't benefit anyone does it? no matter how you put it it's the top 300/400 that keep the game going and they spend the time in it (apart from scanners) I don't think it's fair to punish them every way they can just because they are active. For the record i have had lots of incs and daily incs and it does require a different style of playing but i still don't think bash limits should be changed because of that...

if i was looking for an easy way to win i'd just nap everyone and ask for bash limits to be even lower then they are now.. i'm asking for them to remain the same. not being lowered nor made higher.
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Unread 18 Oct 2005, 13:42   #18
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

What about a variable bash limit? Not one that changes lots ... maybe keep the bash limit about the same for the higher planets, but for the lower value planets make it higher? so say the bottom 25-50% of the planets (by value) had nearer 50-60% bash limits?
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Unread 18 Oct 2005, 14:40   #19
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster
What about a variable bash limit? Not one that changes lots ... maybe keep the bash limit about the same for the higher planets, but for the lower value planets make it higher? so say the bottom 25-50% of the planets (by value) had nearer 50-60% bash limits?
well, the scales would have to be very finely tuned, as (and it pains me to say it) too much protection for the smallest players will lead to a stagnated round, where no-one is willing or able to attack as roids are scarce and simply too expensive to come by so there is a round of SimPlanet :\.

It might be some middle ground worth exploring, though .
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Unread 18 Oct 2005, 20:18   #20
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

There's always going to be an issue with top ranked planets, I guess.

The question is whether the player base can support 60% - I'd imagine not having thought about it more.
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Unread 22 Oct 2005, 05:20   #21
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

the fact of the matter is , top planet would rather see no bash limit or as low as can be , so they get a free run on planets that cant effectively defend themselves, or have no or weak alliances. they rather take 300 roid from a planet 40% of their value rather than risk a fail attack on someone of their own strenght or higher.. that s why no one tried to attack player with 3k, 5k or 11k roids, cause either they were in the same alliances as they were, or the defense of that planet was just too much for them to try. (not atalking about non agression pack between top alliances!)
top planet want everything, but care not at all for the weak or average players, prefering calling those player lazy, or non active or other qualification that suits them. but in truth , those non active , or lazy planets , may have been like mine, active planets bash so often by guys twice their size that it became useless for them to continue. seeing only destruction of their fleet and roids (not including the structure killers sent in so many attack fleet!) so they give up and quit playing before the end of round..

that s what top players and alliances defend.. the right to obliterate every planet they feel like..
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Unread 22 Oct 2005, 11:53   #22
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by rop1964
that s what top players and alliances defend.. the right to obliterate every planet they feel like..
Again, I need to correct you here. Top players and alliances defend eachother. Thats how they keep their roids.

You can't win a round these days simply by outroiding the opposition. Roiding them effectively doubles the affect of you gaining roids.

If you're talking about 6:10 last round, well, that was a special case. It had 5(?) 1ups present in there, along with 2(?) Reunion. Already two of the strongest alliances of the round had a galaxy with 7 friendlies. The rest afaik were neutral. Neutral randoms that had no real idea of how to play the game (and thus bashed) and were considered 'top' purely because of the great teamwork inside their galaxy.
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Unread 22 Oct 2005, 17:23   #23
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

i m sad to see ppls thinking that the only way to win is to kill the weak and average planets, while top alliances goes into non agression pact (which in simple term double those alliance members vs incoming, or more, depending on the numbers of alliances involve in those nap). while i think it s a good way to get top alliances down a notch, if you re in the top 5 or top 10 alliances, nap should never been going on, as it mean that the average alliances will never get through having to fight back not 1 but 2-3 alliance in such a nap.i magine it.. while 1 up (for exemple) goes out roiding, you have lch (again as exemple) defending their allies. making effectively a 2 in 1 alliances. here i m not talking about galmames, as that s normal and xpect.. i m talking about say, a guy in 7 8 9 defending a guy in 10 3 7 who are from different alliance, just because they are allies or in a nap.

and then promoting that it s normal for top players to roid out the average and low planets just add to the fury and annoyment of those players. as they never grow, or when they do.. they get blast out of existance.
truly.. a way to limit top planets to obliterate the small and average planet (50% or less of value/score) has to be put in place, or i m sure ppls will give up playing pa. what would be the point of playing if you cant grow? or paying an account for that matter?
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Unread 22 Oct 2005, 17:39   #24
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Thinking about the more recent posts in this thread, a 60% bash limit upsets a few top players, and protects a LOT of small players.

Depends how left wing we want to be here
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Unread 22 Oct 2005, 19:39   #25
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

"protects" - generally speaking, only roidfat kids are hit at the lower levels of the bash limit.
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Unread 22 Oct 2005, 19:55   #26
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
"protects" - generally speaking, only roidfat kids are hit at the lower levels of the bash limit.
Yup, very few if any players hit people at the bottom end of their bash limit just because they can. It's always about roids, and I don't see any reason to increase the bash limit just because some players arn't as active/good/lucky/bored as some other player. This game is about war, if you don't want to get attacked, don't have roids! :-p
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Unread 22 Oct 2005, 20:12   #27
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

first of all i don't agree with the fact top players want to bash the smallest people they can. that's not true at all. but raising the limit might cause problems in the end and as has been said if you don't want to play a wargame, don't init alot of roids.

further about 6:10 arfy, the rest of the guys weren't total noobs, they each did their part
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Unread 22 Oct 2005, 21:37   #28
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

fat planets! .. lol.. the most i had was slightly over 900 roids and it did not took 6 10 and the other top gal long to come after me and my galmates! it is ridiculous that would be top players defend the right to trash other players just because they try to grow! non active players are the players that have 40 mil in ressource and have no fleet. non active player are player with under 300k in value after a week or 2 of game play. anyone else is "trying" to be active.. but are getting attack so often by big planets that they are always rebuilding!! you all top players (would be top players) are all about making your life easy vs the common growth and fun of other players.. if you re so good.. try playing without an alliance.. play alone and test your skill , if you re that good.. truth is.. you ll be quitting after 1 month.. cause you wont even like the number of incoming you ll get!! that s why players dont resign after being bashed.. cause there s no fun rebuilding everything over and over!!
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Unread 22 Oct 2005, 23:27   #29
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Cypher, I didn't say they were noobs, listen up, foo'! I just said (meant) that the reason of your success was due to the high 1up/Reunion count.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rop1964
fat planets! .. lol.. the most i had was slightly over 900 roids and it did not took 6 10 and the other top gal long to come after me and my galmates! it is ridiculous that would be top players defend the right to trash other players just because they try to grow! non active players are the players that have 40 mil in ressource and have no fleet. non active player are player with under 300k in value after a week or 2 of game play. anyone else is "trying" to be active.. but are getting attack so often by big planets that they are always rebuilding!! you all top players (would be top players) are all about making your life easy vs the common growth and fun of other players.. if you re so good.. try playing without an alliance.. play alone and test your skill , if you re that good.. truth is.. you ll be quitting after 1 month.. cause you wont even like the number of incoming you ll get!! that s why players dont resign after being bashed.. cause there s no fun rebuilding everything over and over!!
My oh my... 900 roids is usually fat. And if not, I'd hit it anyway because 225 roids is usually worth losing ships over. We don't go out to trash, we go out to steal your roids. If you run your fleet then you can get back up and roid. If not, then its hardly 'our' fault. I have played without an alliance (briefly) and personally I think I'd do better without one, due to the fact that I'd be allowed to 3-fleet, and avoid concentrated incomings from the likes of ND/Angels/eXilition and any other group that my alliance is hostile to. Also the fact that I can choose my own targets without having to check an arbiter, or I can choose the fattest guys around because I don't need/want to flak for my ally mates tonight so that there is less defence available for their own fleets. Back to the point at hand, playing without an alliance isn't as hard as its made out to be. Not if you have scans.

And to conclude, the only thing you lose when the big bad 1uppers come for you is roids. Which tbh, isn't all that much considering we have XP. Infact, losing roids does you a favour so that your value is lowered, thus gaining you more XP when you come to land.
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Unread 23 Oct 2005, 00:50   #30
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Hhahahaaha.. that s a good one.. "it s not our fault if we hit ppls under 50% our value/score"... hahahaha that s a very good one. you should be a comedian The Real Arfy . it s like being a german uboat , fire 3 torpedo on a passenger liner and say " it s not our fault if the liner was in the way". truly.. you got no clue how hard it is to be an average player. you re a prime exemple of how uncaring are top alliances and top players.

and by the way.. land with what? when our ships get destroyed, or stolen? it take roid to get ressources and to turn those ressource into ships! no roids = slow death. and when the average player get 4 incoming a day, there s no roids to build anything!
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Unread 23 Oct 2005, 01:04   #31
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

I don't recall saying its not our fault for attacking below ourselves. I do, however, say that its not our fault if our targets leave their ships home to be annihilated or stolen. I think that really, 'we' know far more about being an average sized player than you do about being a top one. At least you see some battles, at least you don't get 20-wave attacks on you out of spite, with the sole intention of removing you from the game.

And please, I am guessing you're not one of my greatest fans, but don't ever say I'm uncaring towards this game.
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Unread 23 Oct 2005, 01:19   #32
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

no, you re not uncaring.. you just care about beating the weak players out of the game! i say you guys are doing a really good job at that.. my guess is you ll soon have a core of 300 players as ppls will get fed up to pay for doing nothing for 10 week but be fodder to abusive players.. wtg pa!

for what i heard, there was once about 7 to 10k players in this games, now we barely have 3000, and with that kind of attitude, where the top players roids to death the lowers average guys, you can be sure pa gonna be a group of self center players.
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Unread 23 Oct 2005, 01:31   #33
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Aha, so its you that is the true comedian of us all...

Anyway, I will take your insults and lack of argument as a personal victory then.

I won't blow my own horn but I'm pretty sure that anyone who actually knows me (and the 'top' players you keep mentioning) will agree that I have taught, nurtured and hell, paid for new guys to play the game and continue to do so. THE TOP PLAYERS ARE THE ONES WHO KEEP THEIR 'NOOBS' AND TRAIN THEM UP!

Lets take 6:10 as a prime example: All those top players. They could have sold out and shipped off their randoms, fencesat their way through the round, and 'beat the system'. No, they took the guys that they were placed with and played as a team. These are top players that quite easily could have hurt the game by exiling their guys, but they didn't, they made sure that all were accounted for and that they would enjoy the game.

EOD.
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Unread 23 Oct 2005, 01:46   #34
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

first, i dont intented any insults, in fact.. i have not swear or curse you, or others players.. i m just pointing out that it s abusive for player of 2.5 mil to raid a player of 1 mil, or for players of 10 mil value to raid a 4 mil? am i right saying this? am i right also to point out that when you work 10-12 weeks on this game, you d like to have something to show for instead of 200 roid and a handful of ships? can it be reasonable to want a better balance between player? if i m wrong i d like to know.. cause all i saw in r14 was player of 2-3 time my value, or the value of other players, stealing everything they can from a player who could not defend himself , no matter how much help he may get..
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Unread 23 Oct 2005, 02:00   #35
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

The bash limit is here to prevent attacks lower than that so no its not abusive for that to happen.

Personally I play this game to serve whichever alliance or group I am representing at the time, so I want to show that as a team, we owned. Others like high galaxy scores, others personal scores, others just want to have fun and see a few cool battles along the way.

The fact that XP has been introduced gives your planet a rank it deserves based on the courage of its attacks - so really I see no point in arguing at all about the bash limit when you are the one to be profiting from this... Since clearly you're one of a kind by being uber-courageous, right?

It is of course very reasonable to want a better balance between players - if, of course, there is a an equal balance in knowledge, skill, and activity between players - which we all know there is not.

To add, XP and the bash limit combined along with 1-tick attacking is really already a huge step in the protection of ranks for those less skilled and active players and I really see no reason to keep on punishing people for giving time to play, and learning to play this game.
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Unread 23 Oct 2005, 02:14   #36
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

then you say it s right to bring down a player of 4 mil value by a 10 mil, so that later a 8 mil goes after him agaim, then a 6.5 mil value.. till he got less than 100 roid and no ships? so it s all right for a players to waste 12 weeks so players of greater strenght and value force him to quit.? so it s an avantage to get 4 incoming from player you know you cant resist every day? so it s a great thing to be beaten to death?

we obviously have not the same idea of what s gun and what s fair..
i would rather have 10 player of 50% under my value trying to get my roid (as get mauy get xp and grow) rather than see 4 player twice my size steal my roids and calling me lazy, inactive or whatever.. especially since getting roid from me barely cover any xp worth getting.. as exemple. if i have 1000 roid and you you re 2x my value.. my 250 roids you d get from me are worth x.. but if you land on a guy twice your value those same roid would bring you way more xp and score.. so tell me.. which one is preferable steal 250 roid from a -50% value for next to nothing xp and score.. or stealing 250 roids from a guy 2x your value for hugee xp and score boost? answering this is quite obvious if you really in for xp and score (which top player claim to be seeking!)
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Unread 23 Oct 2005, 02:35   #37
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by rop1964
then you say it s right to bring down a player of 4 mil value by a 10 mil
You say "bring down"... I've been arguing that its not a case of "bringing down" anyone. Its a case of me wanting more roids, so that I can build more ships.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rop1964
so that later a 8 mil goes after him agaim, then a 6.5 mil value.. till he got less than 100 roid and no ships?
No. That doesn't happen. Unless of couse, you check your planet what, once a day, you shouldn't lose ships. You shouldn't lose that much score either, unless the majority of your value is coming from your roids (in which case, yes, its your turn to be roided). You can be thankful though, since its the large player thats losing out by targetting a planet with 100 roids.

If you don't have enough XP to keep your planet at a respectable rank by now, well, then you're being a hypocrite...

Quote:
Originally Posted by rop1964
so it s all right for a players to waste 12 weeks so players of greater strenght and value force him to quit.?
Nobody forces anyone to quit. You seem to have the mindset that everyone should never go above 400 roids or something. That, or we must initiate upto 8000 roids.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rop1964
so it s an avantage to get 4 incoming from player you know you cant resist every day? so it s a great thing to be beaten to death?
If you can't hold your roids, but you can take somebody else's, then yes, yes I am.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rop1964
i would rather have 10 player of 50% under my value trying to get my roid (as get mauy get xp and grow) rather than see 4 player twice my size steal my roids and calling me lazy, inactive or whatever..
Of course you would, because chances are they wouldn't get through your defence.

I like to think that I've now given you enough answers for this never-ending "discussion" to finally end. If not, keep the questions coming.
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Unread 23 Oct 2005, 02:45   #38
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

that s exactly why a raise in the lower bash limit must be put up.. to prevent abuse by bigger planet! you re defending the right of big planet to destroy the smaller one.. that s flatly wrong!!! you claim to want to get more roids.. then take them from higher players! not the weak and defenseless.. take them from the strong and powerful.. god... is it so hard to understand that roiding the weak/average is to kill their fun?? what s the point of playing if there s no fun.. how would you like to be roid to death ? never to hold to whatever small amount of roid and ships you get? to never be able to attack a bigger planet cause you dont have enough ships?
that s why a raise in the limit is necessary.. not to prevent the small to attack the big.. but to prevent the big to kill the small and average!!
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Unread 23 Oct 2005, 02:54   #39
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

OK, for the last time:

Its not abuse. How long before the bash limit is raised to 80%? Then 100%? Then 150%?

I'm defending the right for roids to be swapped frequently, not for the smaller planets to be destroyed.

Believe it or not, we do take them from the higher ranked players. Thats how we finish with high XP counts, and high ranks. I've been saying this all along, its not the high ranked players that cause this problem.

Is it so hard to understand that late nights and early mornings just to find out that there is once again defence on my target for 12 weeks, kills my fun too?

I play for a team, and to have some fun battles along the way. That's whats fun.

I love being roided to death, it lowers my value, thus increasing my XP: See?

Yes, I had a very small amount of roids for someone with my kind of value. I kept my ships through effort and determination.

I did attack bigger planets, note the jumps of ~200 roids and XP pretty much every time.

Now, I will allow you one more reply, except this time it has to be different to every other post from you in this thread.
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Unread 23 Oct 2005, 03:20   #40
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Its not abuse. How long before the bash limit is raised to 80%? Then 100%? Then 150%? i never claim the limit to be at 80% or 150%. i say 40% is too low. i m glad for you if you manage to have 20k catharr/terran/zik ships or 500k xan ship with 200 roids all round.. (that comment was made before looking at your history graph) that s impressive. but the fact is , no one else can manage to survive without roid, and no one can attack a guy that has 4x the number of ship he has, or defend for that matter.

we can assume a guy of 1 million value got 2x the ship of a guy of 500k.. so for the 500k guy.. landing on the one million guy would be hard at best.. while the 1 mil guy would have an easy time landing on the 500k guy. it s not about the movement of roids.. as lower value player get reward for landing the big guy.. it s about giving a chance for the weak/average guy to grow.. you said it yourself you landed big planets before.. what prevent you to do so more often? surely getting 1500 from a guy that has 6k is more interesting that stealing 250 from a guty that has 1000? as usually those who have 5-6k roids has a lot more value and score than those at 1000 roids! all i want to see , is a protection for the planets so they dont get overkill in a week, by player who, because they lack the guts of landing big planets, turn and attack defenseless ones! i hated those players who came with 5ooo cathaar cruisers , to steal a handfyul of roids while those 5k cruiser could have easily take on a bigger guy! that are act of cowardice and should be penalise (- y xp * number of roid stolen) from score.. as it simply bullying. i want the small /average guy to have a fighting chance. i well know ppls dont care seeing planet be destroyed .. that s why pa will end up with a lot lower members thabn they have now.. cause ppls just want to from the easiest target they can find! if they were truly wishing for a better pa, they would strive to hit bigger guys.. and ignore those under 60% of their value.. (even 60% is rather low, but liveable.. maybe)
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Unread 23 Oct 2005, 08:35   #41
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

it's funny you say all this stuff rop but if it's abusive and mean and bad for the game if a 10 mil player hits a 4 mil player, how do you feel about the fact that i had 10 4/5 mil players incoming on my 10 mil planet? is it bad then too? or is that ok again? because the difference is FAR bigger. And in your standards it's obvious bashing and should never be allowed.
Personally i think that's stupid as it's a wargame and if we can't attack why play it?
If you hit planets that are my friends or ally mates why wouldn't i be allowed to hit you?
The only arguments you make is you don't want to be hit because you think those people are too big. I'm quite sure those people don't send all their score at you but just a portion of their fleet so in essense they aren't even sending that many more millions at you. Also as i said bigger players do get incs too and often it's 5 to 10 or more planets at once on same wave and more waves of that, which is more annoying then a single fleet.

p.s. 900 is more then fat enough.
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Unread 23 Oct 2005, 09:06   #42
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by rop1964
it s about giving a chance for the weak/average guy to grow..
They had a chance, its called the beginning of the round.

Quote:
you said it yourself you landed big planets before.. what prevent you to do so more often?
The fact that these targets are no longer viable or worth hitting. They already have less roids than someone half their value and whoa-my-god, without roids they can't keep up with production! So the roids need to come from somewhere.

And of course, its all about fleet composition. I can hit players with a bad FC and take advantage of that. Once you get higher up, you realise that *shock horror* the other players also have nice fleet composition and its alot harder for you to land at all, let alone for the minimal amount of roids you would get.

You seem to misunderstand that this is a wargame, its every kid for himself, with the exception of those guys who play for an alliance. The movement of roids is what keeps the game going. From what you are saying though, people should only attack higher than themselves... So if you think about it, this would mean that the lower ranked players would have all the roids. Doesn't quite work, does it?

Lastly, please stop contradicting yourself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ME
Its not abuse. How long before the bash limit is raised to 80%? Then 100%? Then 150%?
Quote:
Originally Posted by YOU
i never claim the limit to be at 80% or 150%.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YOU
even 60% is rather low, but liveable.. maybe
So basically what you have decided to say is that you want the limit to be raised to 60% from 40%. From what was once 15%(?). The bash limit keeps getting raised, yet you say that you don't want it at 80%. But 60% is too low... Seriously, make up your mind and come back with an argument that you've actually thought about.

I don't actually care what is all happy and nice for the smaller players. I pay £20 a round in credits, I want my game to be happy and nice, with lots of players, so start thinking about whats good for the game and not whats good for yourself.
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Unread 23 Oct 2005, 09:45   #43
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Just to further my response...

My ending value = 2265487

Assuming I built no constructions, and lost/stole no ships, thats 226548700 resources. Over 1656 ticks, I earned on average 136804 resources each tick.

Given that each roid produces 250 resources each tick, thats a grand total of an average of 542 roids for the entire round.

Just to note, I stole a mere 3k xan CO and lost ~4k cat CO, I also had close to 40% mining bonus and 10 Crystal refineries (which means I effectively had alot less roids than I calculated. The value is closer to 330 or so).

Yet, even with just a small number of roids and income, I still managed to end up just outside the top 300 players, because I was active and kept my fleet and had an 'OK' amount of XP.

I hope this proves my point to you that while roids do matter, they are not the life or death factor of this game. I really can't be arsed to continue this discussion with you, at least not on here. So PM me on IRC (find me in #public) or if you do wish to carry on with it here, thats fine, but you're looking like a fool.
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Unread 23 Oct 2005, 10:34   #44
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monroe
Yup, very few if any players hit people at the bottom end of their bash limit just because they can. It's always about roids, and I don't see any reason to increase the bash limit just because some players arn't as active/good/lucky/bored as some other player. This game is about war, if you don't want to get attacked, don't have roids! :-p
I've only just noticed this post, i must have skipped it the first time (sorry! ). However, i think this is the type of attitude that doesnt help the situation much at all.

Whilst that is harsh, there is a common misconception out there that only small planets who are roid fat get attacked, and thus they deserve to get attacked. The thing is, when you are a small planet, someone who is 2.5 times larger than you is able to use their larger fleet to crash their way through to roids - it may only be marginally cheaper than attacking someone larger, but consider the proportions of fleet losses here; the bigger player losses perhaps 15% of their fleet to get full cap (and next to no XP), whilst the same value of ships for the smaller player is the vast majority of their fleet. This blows them wide open for the next and subsequent attacks, all of whom can still land as fleets that have been launched already are not subject to the bash limit. So in effect, all the following waves get nigh on free roids - even if it is only 40 roids, they are still free (and wouldnt take much in the way of ships to obtain). this is obviously adventageous for the attackers who will continue to do this to everyone they can. Then, the same planet, after being waved all to hell and had his constructions, roids and fleet completely annihilated, begins to rebuild his fleet, piece by piece. However, as he has no cash, it means that the rebuilding is slow. So the next day, another oppertunistic player will notice the gap in the fleet's targeting and attack - i personally understand why this happens and to an extent its ok, but from the perspective of the small player, its very demoralising to have your planet trashed one day, and get attacked again and again in subsequent days. Gradually, it stops, but you ahve to ask yourself; is this fun? Can you imagine what it is like to be on the receiving end, knowing that you have no alliance support and potentially no galaxy support? Its not inducive to having more people play this game. The problem is, there isnt an obvious solution to solving it; PA is after all a war game, however the point of bash limits is to make it a fair war-game.

A system of having a hard/soft bash limit as i expressed far earlier (ie below 30% of value is a hard bash limit, 30-50% of value will result in negative XP and potentially score) - now, how does this help the situation? well, it provides players with more choice. Those attackers who merely exploited the defender's situation for a 'free' 40 roids, will now trade in XP to get them. This will obviously discoruage them, but if those players are desperate for roids, then they are still able to get them - at the trade off of XP.

I think that is a more fair environment for players (who vastly outnumber 'top' players and without whom this game dies, and remembering that 'top' players should be able to adapt anyway as a measure of their skill) which should lead to more fun at the bottom of the game.

Which is the point.
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Unread 23 Oct 2005, 11:01   #45
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

The fact that roids get stolen is part of the game, big deal, everyone takes roids from someone else. The constructions getting destroyed, yes that is hugely unfair. However, roids and constructions are a tiny proportion of the total score of a planet and we all know that if you can keep your ships alive, there is really no problem. As long as those getting roided are in turn roiding others, they are sorted. Not running your fleet because you can't check your account is something you have to deal with, or stop complaining about.

The fact that we have pre-launch allows us 11+10+10 (with full tech tree completed) = 31 hours for our ships to be out of base. Thats still only checking once every 10 hours if you don't want your fleet to actually leave your base.
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Unread 23 Oct 2005, 16:35   #46
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

there s an idea then.. let s remove pre-launch, remome the defense option and remove fake attack! and let remove the limit where you cant hit someone! total free for all! that s what you want after after.. having no defense to come in the way.. having the right to destroy a planet just because he /she got 300 roids or more.. just because you cant find the guts to attack someone bigger or equal to your self! lets see how long pa will do without any defense or limit.. lol..
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Unread 23 Oct 2005, 17:13   #47
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

I'd like you to do some homework: Read my posts, properly. Then find the bits where I say I want to remove the (bash?) limit. Then the bit where I say I want defence, fake attacks and prelaunching out of the game too. Then the bit where I say I want to destroy a planet purely because they have over 300 roids. lol..
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Unread 23 Oct 2005, 17:32   #48
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

well isnt it a fact that attacking a planet 40% of your value as the same effect?and you did complaint that you were unhappy if not mad that target get defense.. since you re against defense and you like to raid 40% planet.. let s just take the next step and remove both defense and the limit, so you can hit anyone anytime! that should make you happy.. and why not remove the recall .. so there s actual battle done too!

see i can be just as crazy as you when it come to proposing ideas, ideas that force battle and the moving of roid! truth is .. i want the raise in the limit so top player do fight more against themselves, i want the defense to stay, so we can try to hold on to what little we have, i m for the pre-launch, as it provide a way to save your ships from being stolen.. in fact.. i want a game where to weak have a chance to fight back.. where the average guy look up and have a chance to land.. i want to see balance and fun back in a game that is losing player a extra speed.. from 10000 players a few years back to barely 3000 now.. dont you see there s something wrong?
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Unread 23 Oct 2005, 17:38   #49
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

and for sure , i would like to see other ppls give their point of view about this.. convince me that roiding out the small is good.. that the fact of having 4-6 wave of big players on me at 40% of their value is good for me!
or to losing my ships to defend myself is a great idea.. surely me and arfy are not the only ones here with any thoughts about this..
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Unread 23 Oct 2005, 17:46   #50
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Re: Secondary Bash Limit

Once again you've avoided my arguments, made no attempt to bring anything new to this thread, and worst of all you're making things up and accusing me of saying them.

There is one thing you've gotten correct and thats that we both want to hear other people's views. So as soon as someone competent writes something in this thread, I'll consider it closed.

Goodbye.
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