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10 Oct 2005, 02:17
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#1
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Guest
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Fake Defence
Is there a reason why there is no fake-defence mission setting just like fake-attack? If not please add that feature.
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10 Oct 2005, 09:49
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#2
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SiNíng is a lifestyle
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Woodenshoeland
Posts: 241
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Re: Fake Defence
\o/ Fake defence would really kick ass! Sending galmates the wrong shiptype but you don't have to be around to pull them if the attacker is actually calling your bluff! Or even alliance mates for that matter!
Would really help my (RL) social life.
So help Cloggy getting a real social life (GF's even if that is possible), and please, please code this into the game ASAP!
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10 Oct 2005, 10:36
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#3
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Registered Awesome Person
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
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Re: Fake Defence
No. If you're going to annoy me by covering my attack with fake defence, you could at least have the balls to recall it if you have to. I'd remove the fake attack option as well.
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10 Oct 2005, 10:42
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#4
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,081
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Re: Fake Defence
Indeed - its one or the other tbh and I vote they both go. However, its not exactly hard to work out when defence is real or fake.
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10 Oct 2005, 14:45
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#5
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Average Thex
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 121
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Re: Fake Defence
I'd disagree. There were a number of situations where I have sent an attack and defence was sent and despite looking at various scans I wouldn't tell if it was a fake defence or not.
Ultimately unless you have a Mil Scan that you can run on other planets you cannot really tell if the defence is going to be useful and/or fake.
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Thex
My alliance is [BIG]ger than yours
[ex LOST], [ex IF], [ex G-II]
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10 Oct 2005, 16:33
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#6
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ND
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Amazingstoke
Posts: 2,235
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Re: Fake Defence
Yeah, for example.
you send 2 waves of cr.
you see in gal def from a xan, who has a total of 5k pks. He sent 2 fleets of 5k ships (he has no lancers). If he sent half of each in each fleet, he doesn't touch you, but if he sent all in 1 fleet, your attack fleet would get ****ed. How do you decide which one is real?
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10 Oct 2005, 18:07
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#7
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Guest
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Re: Fake Defence
lol, thats just part of the game fish and its going to happen whether there is a fake defence mission option or not. This is really only about the convenience of the defender not needing to be around at the last few mins of ETA to recall.
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10 Oct 2005, 18:15
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#8
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-Back Again-
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Hitchin, Hertfordshire
Posts: 707
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Re: Fake Defence
But what if there are 20 attacking fleets and an aliance organises 20 fake defense fleets to ward off the incoming. If 10 attackers recall, those fake defense fleets would be useful as real defense.
Even if it was an option, no MO with any sense would allow their members to send fake defense, surely?
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10 Oct 2005, 18:39
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#9
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ND
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Amazingstoke
Posts: 2,235
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Re: Fake Defence
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kloopy
But what if there are 20 attacking fleets and an aliance organises 20 fake defense fleets to ward off the incoming. If 10 attackers recall, those fake defense fleets would be useful as real defense.
Even if it was an option, no MO with any sense would allow their members to send fake defense, surely?
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Depends whether you are living in a dreamworld or not. When you're having a bad night, you can't cover every call with real def, so you get fake def. Makes attackers recall = result.
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10 Oct 2005, 18:42
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#10
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Guest
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Re: Fake Defence
kloopy the same can be said about fake attacks tbh...
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10 Oct 2005, 18:45
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#11
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,081
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Re: Fake Defence
Of course there are some scenarios where its impossible to tell. However, having fake defence missions built into the game would not solve this.
P.S. No I would not accept fake defence fleets. If you're having a bad night, those ships can usually be used for other calls. I really don't see the benefit to it.
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Dynamic Salvage!
[16:10:34] <[lfc]stif|afk> "dont be the worst in your alliance, join CT. We have Arfy!"
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10 Oct 2005, 18:49
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#12
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Guest
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Re: Fake Defence
not everyone is in a top 10 alliance or has the time to recall at the last minute. all im saying is that if we have a fake attack option, why not a fake defence. OPTION.
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10 Oct 2005, 19:39
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#13
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thinking, that's all.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 867
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Re: Fake Defence
There's been instances, fleetcatches notably where alliances would definitely take advantage of this option with the players who know they can't be on to recall. Many big battles are decided by who has the balls to land, rather than anything else. I certainly don't think the alliance unable to cover the attack should have the option to send dissuasive defence without any ships physically available. It also ruins the idea of faking early on in the night, and structured well thought out attacks in wartimes.
On another note, the whole point of PAX, it's big advancement is that the game's far more aggressive, the emphasis is on attacking. This would limit attack success significantly. Actually, when you think about it..
You can fake defences anyway with the current system, harpies make great dragons and the attackers can't fleet scan or anything, if it's a real problem to ya just do that :\
We might as well throw in the towel if we allow it - or let people prelaunch attacks !
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10 Oct 2005, 19:40
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#14
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thinking, that's all.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 867
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Re: Fake Defence
Oh and also, no one actually uses the fake attack button
(Though it does actually have purpose as the defender's likely to have anti-whatever you'd fake with)
In a defensive situation it wouldn't, and that's the answer to your question.
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[1up], Ascendancy Events Organiser & eXilition HC
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11 Oct 2005, 00:20
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#15
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Guest
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Re: Fake Defence
I use the fake attack button from time to time. I dont think you guys are getting me... we're not debating the existence of fake defence or not, because it does and alway will exist full stop. we're debating adding the option for convenience on the missions page, just as we have the fake attack option.
just because you wouldn't use it doesnt mean others won't.
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11 Oct 2005, 07:14
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#16
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Inactive peon
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 6,050
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Re: Fake Defence
fake defence/attack is a way to allow someoe to help their alliance/galaxy if they know they won;t be online to recall later - as such it removes a reliance on activity from the game and hence i'd like fake defence to return.
fake defence also poentially allows for new tactics and hence a skill increase - therfore more skill, less activity, which is what the game should be about.
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11 Oct 2005, 07:25
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#17
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Guest
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Re: Fake Defence
that precisely what I'm talking about thanks Kal for directly addressing my issue and thanks for agreeing.
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11 Oct 2005, 10:32
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#18
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Registered Awesome Person
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
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Re: Fake Defence
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Real Arfy
P.S. No I would not accept fake defence fleets. If you're having a bad night, those ships can usually be used for other calls. I really don't see the benefit to it.
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Do you really get equal numbers of each class of incoming? Certainly in Round 14 the great majority of incoming was CR/BS, and without fake defence we would have been screwed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal
fake defence/attack is a way to allow someoe to help their alliance/galaxy if they know they won;t be online to recall later - as such it removes a reliance on activity from the game and hence i'd like fake defence to return.
fake defence also poentially allows for new tactics and hence a skill increase - therfore more skill, less activity, which is what the game should be about.
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Why must activity become even less important? - but that's a different question.
Fake defence is a powerful weapon, and some would argue that it has become over-used of recent times. I'm not an advocate of this, but I think that it has reached its limit. Being able to select a mission where the fake defence automatically recalls makes things just too easy for the defenders. What about the fun games where Vsh are used to defend against Terran DE fleets? You just make things too easy for defenders if you don't force them to be online to recall at eta 1/whenever.
Find me on IRC if you want me to go into more details, my hands are tired.
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11 Oct 2005, 10:35
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#19
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I see you!
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: In any girl
Posts: 2,825
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Re: Fake Defence
Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
I'd remove the fake attack option as well.
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And the prelaunch
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11 Oct 2005, 12:33
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#20
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Retired FCHC
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 169
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Re: Fake Defence
Having fake defence would make it too easy in my book. But this is just my oppinion
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12 Oct 2005, 07:48
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#21
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For Crowly <3
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Luton, England
Posts: 1,391
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Re: Fake Defence
The thing is if you have fake attack you must have fake defence
Its like having Ying but no Yang
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12 Oct 2005, 07:52
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#22
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ND
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Amazingstoke
Posts: 2,235
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Re: Fake Defence
In fact, if you were going to have just one, it would be fake def.
I'm sure fake def was actually added in PaX then removed, but I don't ever remember seeing why.
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12 Oct 2005, 13:57
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#23
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Flash in the PAN
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Birmingham, Romania
Posts: 554
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Re: Fake Defence
Fake def isn't the question here, rather the fake def mission.
I.e. it launches but doesnt actually take part in combat, like a fake attack.
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13 Oct 2005, 04:09
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#24
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Guest
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Re: Fake Defence
precisely, there is no debate on whether fake defence exists - all we are saying is there is a fake attack mission option but no fake defence... why? Kloopy please stick it in this round if there are no further reasons
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13 Oct 2005, 04:31
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#25
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PGLee
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 70
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Re: Fake Defence
lol... well, imo, remove both, both the fake def and fake attack...
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13 Oct 2005, 07:53
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#26
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deserves a medal
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,211
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Re: Fake Defence
The attacks of players that need this fake def option are proberbly gonna be hit the hardest by it
Since most people can't be arsed to read jpg's and unit scans properly... and don't see whats fake or real.
Maybe the skill of the people that attack would increase, but the skill of people that fakedef would increase just as fast
Even tho people's skill will increase it will always stay an educated guess
More often people will be able and are gonna be forced to make such guesses to land
and what if they guess wrong only once? They lose their fleet. Yay fun fun.
I know I made those mistakes several times
And I can read scans pretty good..
And it would make the game less interesting ofc.. for attackers and defenders alike..
Fire and forget defences, harder attacks, and both sides can't call a bluff by having a standoff anymore (!!!)
Those standoffs are great when everyone wets their pants because noone knows who will chicken out or 'forgets' . With people making tons of scans just in hope the situation changes. Their is no point in following the progress of that if its predetermined.
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Last edited by Alessio; 13 Oct 2005 at 09:13.
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13 Oct 2005, 09:18
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#27
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PGLee
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 70
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Re: Fake Defence
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Master
I use the fake attack button from time to time. I dont think you guys are getting me... we're not debating the existence of fake defence or not, because it does and alway will exist full stop. we're debating adding the option for convenience on the missions page, just as we have the fake attack option.
just because you wouldn't use it doesnt mean others won't.
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Convinience? LOL.. This game is not about "convinience" it's about skill at having to be up at those times and check on recall. I see both the pros and cons of these option but imo, if we do put in the fake def option on the missions page, it makes life "too easy".
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Rd 14 - [Hydra Officer]
Rd 15 - [eXi Officer]
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13 Oct 2005, 09:45
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#28
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Registered Awesome Person
Join Date: Jul 2002
Posts: 5,676
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Re: Fake Defence
Quote:
Originally Posted by jian_yee
Convinience? LOL.. This game is not about "convinience" it's about skill at having to be up at those times and check on recall. I see both the pros and cons of these option but imo, if we do put in the fake def option on the missions page, it makes life "too easy".
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You're confusing activity with skill - the skill is in deciding whether or not to land. Moreover, it's up to you when you attack - attack during the day and you won't have to get up in the night to scan
PA needs both - it wouldn't be the same without the long sleepless nights, but skill is now vital. The top 100 planets sees some members of the community do well time and time again (elvis, for example), and I attribute that to the excellent PaX changes (appropriatly refined).
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13 Oct 2005, 12:24
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#29
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Flash in the PAN
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Birmingham, Romania
Posts: 554
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Re: Fake Defence
Quote:
Originally Posted by jian_yee
This game is not about "convinience" it's about skill at having to be up at those times and check on recall..
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Getting out of bed does require uber skills
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14 Oct 2005, 09:44
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#30
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U've been Moderated
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: getting sex0red by pretty women
Posts: 1,510
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Re: Fake Defence
didn't we already have a discussion about this once and decided it was a BAD idea?
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15 Oct 2005, 09:18
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#31
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[TGV]
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 116
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Re: Fake Defence
im all for this feature, i have actually thought about it a number of times, and it would be very helpful
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15 Oct 2005, 10:34
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#32
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PA Team
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 7,449
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Re: Fake Defence
Quote:
Originally Posted by cypher
didn't we already have a discussion about this once and decided it was a BAD idea?
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we didn't finish the discussion.
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15 Oct 2005, 13:22
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#33
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Guest
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Re: Fake Defence
omg what a surprise!!!
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15 Oct 2005, 16:08
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#34
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U've been Moderated
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: getting sex0red by pretty women
Posts: 1,510
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Re: Fake Defence
so basically ít's making the game easier for inactive people again and removing the activity part... what will happen round 20? at the start of the round i can decide what my planet is gonna do all round long at once and i can check back 1500 ticks later and see if i won? come on guys it's planetarion...some activity is required it's really that simple.
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16 Oct 2005, 22:24
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#35
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;D!
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 1,810
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Re: Fake Defence
Quote:
Originally Posted by cypher
so basically ít's making the game easier for inactive people again and removing the activity part... what will happen round 20? at the start of the round i can decide what my planet is gonna do all round long at once and i can check back 1500 ticks later and see if i won? come on guys it's planetarion...some activity is required it's really that simple.
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I'm agreeing with cyphie here...
I'm usually all for things which make the game more accessible, but faking defence is a slightly more advanced part of PA (as advanced as PA gets anyhow) which should be saved as an incentive for activity. And it would help make the game more defence oriented, which as we all know, isn't that fun :S
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19 Oct 2005, 00:08
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#36
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Retired FCHC
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 169
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Re: Fake Defence
I'll say it again; Fake defence makes the game too easy. Bad idea. Would you rather beat Chelsea by 5 goals with all their players on the pitch and healthy? Or would you rather have just their keeper on the pitch?
Yeh ok it's nice to think you could just have Chelsea's keeper to get past but my point is a certain degree of accomplishment is taken away when it's easy to score against Chelsea. The same is true for Planetarion. If fake defence was possible you'd just send everything you had to defend against 500 ships; scare tactics. I don't think we'd have as many attacks and roids changeing hads. Bad idea, naughty
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Amidst of the eternal waves of time.
From a change of ripple shall the storm rise
Out of abyss peer the eyes of a demon
Behold the Razgriz, its wings of black sheath
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join our public chan #f-crew
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21 Oct 2005, 05:21
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#37
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F Crew
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: sorel, quebec, canada
Posts: 268
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Re: Fake Defence
ppls are missing the point of a fake defense option.. it s not to send a ghost fleet, but to provide planets a means to send defense without losing yoour ships (as they wont enter defense anyway!) just like a fake attack dont engage in combat.
those against just think it s a way o provide easier attacks.. while those for see a real defensive potential.
truly what s wrong in faking a defense? if any defense is sent, it can be track by ppls using their scanners (unitscan and eventually fleetscan ) so what s the big deal?
the same is done by fake attack i would mention.
a fake defense would send ships that normally cant stop the incoming fleet, but if the defender is clever , he wont be sendint 5k ships.. as that would show the fake defense for what it is.. he will send that number of ships equal to what he would had normally sent to stop the incoming.
then it s up to the attacker to "guess" if the defense is real or not.
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Last edited by rop1964; 21 Oct 2005 at 05:50.
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