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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 21:37   #1
Hebdomad
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Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

I haven't watched celebrity big brother because I like to think I'm an intelligent, witty, beautiful human being so I don't know if the accusations of bullying and racism are true (do tell me what you think), but it seems a bit much really. I mean, who cares what a dull non-celebrity and her mother think?

I don't condone bullying. But can't they just have a public phone-in? "Shall we evict Jade Goody and leave her cold, hungry and naked in a ditch just off the A47 tied to wolf?" Or possibly firebomb her house like the suffragettes used to do to parliamentarians (the analogy is wearing thin, i know).

I'm all up for burning effigies of Jade Goody and the producers of Big Brother. But isn't it over the top? They should either 1) Stop watching Big Brother and stop writing about Big Brother thus reducing its viewing figures and the amount of advertisers willing to pay for adverts, or 2) start systematically murdering Jade Goody and her entourage.

Just discuss the whole racism and big brother business, I can't remember my initial intention for this thread.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 21:39   #2
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Oh how the Mighty have fallen. From 'Am I a minger?' and stipping naked on live television, to this.

How the tears of sorrow flow down my face.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 21:43   #3
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

What was said? I know some people here watch it so tell me!


Quote:
"The message should go out from this country loud and clear that we are a tolerant country and we will not tolerate racism in any way."
Oh freedom of speech, whatever will you get up to next
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 21:55   #4
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

I find it funny that while the papers write that they hate Big Brother, they carry on writing about it
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 22:01   #5
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
What was said? I know some people here watch it so tell me!


Oh freedom of speech, whatever will you get up to next
I've no idea but there's an article on it here which includes the following hilarious statement
Quote:
"India has throughout firmly rejected all forms of discrimination and racism.'
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 22:02   #6
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

nod still fancies jade
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 22:09   #7
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by horn
"They referred to her as "the Indian", made fun of her accent and accused her of wanting to be more light-skinned.

One inhabitant of the Big Brother house said that Indians were so thin because they ate undercooked food, which made them ill."

from - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6271139.stm
Verily the end of civilisation is upon us. For an indian she's pretty hot though
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 22:13   #8
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

It's just. Big Brother carried Jade to the dizzy heights of celebritydom, and it can quite as easily take her down.

Saying that though, you never know. She might become more famous for this "bullying". She'll have to shed the naive, thick, common girl image though.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 22:15   #9
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

I want two things to happen: Jade Goody and her mother to be punished somehow, and for everyone to shut up about it and stop making ****ing threads about Big Brother. And even though I realise the adverse publicity being vomited out of society will achieve aim number one I still want Jade Goody tied to a wolf.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 22:16   #10
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
For an indian she's pretty hot though
Maybe you could sail up to her house in a boat with your friends, who then claim the property as their own and misbehave, while you're all respectful and befriend her with a string of beads.

It worked for John Smith.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 22:31   #11
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Quote:
I realise the adverse publicity being vomited out of society will achieve aim number one I still want Jade Goody tied to a wolf.
Make that a tiger tank and i would agree with you. No poor animal should have that lump inflicted on them.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 22:35   #12
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Voting for public flogging of both Goody and her mother.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 22:39   #13
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

It's actually rather good that Jade is in the house. People who care are seeing once again what a dopey pig she is when she isn't engaged 24/7 with her agent and public relations team.
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 23:14   #14
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

This could be the first time in history that protesters burning things in the streets to demonstrate that they're awful might actually have a point.

(For the wrong reasons, granted, but you can't have everything.)
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Unread 17 Jan 2007, 23:20   #15
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

i am impressed how quickly indians manage to construct and burn effegys and flags. its pretty ****ing efficient
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 00:05   #16
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

I thought this comment was quite an interesting take on it:

Quote:
Shilpa Shetty, a coruscating star in the Bollywood firmament, has endured the past few days in the Big Brother house as the object of prejudice. In response, thousands of viewers have mustered themselves to her defence and issued a blizzard of complaints. That Channel 4 is now refusing to put a quietus to the abuse, or discipline the offenders, should arouse little surprise. It's not the first time that racism has forced an intrusion on the show.

Before even entering the house in the sixth series that ran over the summer of 2005, Saskia announced her disapproval of foreigners. "They all want to kill us, bomb us," she said. "I don't want to generalise, but I do." At the time, Lucy Mangan wryly - and, perhaps, justly - located her views as being "slightly to the right of Genghis Khan."

A couple of weeks on, addressing Zimbabwe-born housemate Makosi, Saskia ranted: "You lot. You've always got a chip on your shoulder." Later, in reference to Makosi's afro hairstyle, she added: "And you wear a wig on your head."

Those sentiments were almost matched by fellow housemate and former Tory candidate, Derek Laud. Irked by the presence of Science, the budding MC from Hull, the ever-fastidious Mr Laud contemplated a lurch further rightwards. "He is the first black person," Laud said of Science, "to make me want to support the BNP."

In Laud's case, the comments may not present an aberration. He was once the only black member of the Monday Club - a Conservative outfit that was noted for promoting a policy of repatriation for non-white immigrants. And, according to a profile of Laud by the Observer's Andrew Anthony in 1996, there's his role in the 1980s:

" ... as a 'political consultant' with a PR firm called Strategy Network International, whose major clients included the South African Chamber of Mines and other agencies connected to the apartheid regime."

Six months later, on the celebrity form of the show, Faria Alam, the former FA employee, became the focus of a much-derided race controversy. After being nominated for eviction, Faria turned to Dennis Rodman and Traci Bingham - the other non-white participants - and confided an impression. "Do you think they'll ever let a black or Asian girl or guy win this thing? Are you out of your tree? Never."

News of her whispers swiftly reached the other housemates, through Traci. No pause was taken even to consider the proposition. Instead, bellows of indignation ensued. Faria was reduced to tears. She was summarily evicted that night, exiting to a chorus of boos. Davina McCall muttered admonitions in the interview. And the tabloid press - not a particularly famed source of sensitivity on issues of race - boosted the clamour the next morning.

Of course, no non-white participant has ever won Big Brother - and none of those who hastened to reprove Faria were able to furnish a reason why.

Last summer, no non-white contestant even made it to the final night. One, Shahbaz, had to quit early, not on grounds not of racial abuse but poor mental health. However, the references to him both in and out of the house could have been more edifying. Some of his co-denizens stubbornly refused to use his name. "Whatever your name is" established itself as a substitute.

In the press, his name was used; spelt correctly, too. But it was often succeeded by, "the self-styled 'paki poof'", or "the self-proclaimed 'paki poof'" and other variants. Journalists and editors can certainly advance a tolerable argument in favour of reprinting the racial epithet. Since he said it, why can't we quote him as doing so? The line, however, is revealed for its speciousness when one probes for consistency. Would the same editors abide their music writers describing Tupac Shakur, Ice Cube, and Snoop Dogg as "self-styled" or "self-confessed" "n*******"?

Shilpa Shetty's case is especially salient for a number of reasons. For one, her fame is without equal in the house. As is routine, the contestants are largely a mix of have-beens and never-weres. Shilpa's fame and career, on the other hand, are still cresting, while she already commands the recognition of hundreds of millions. And then there's the unvarnished nature of the abuse.

Writing on the Organ Grinder, Stephen Brook questions whether the housmates are, in fact, racist at all. The piece begins in the manner of a news story, with the neatly objective term "alleging" prefacing a mention of racism. It then gently segues into a comment piece, led in the first person. Brook surveys some of the evidence and firmly concludes that there was bullying and misogyny - but no racism.

Here's what Brook somehow elides, or dismisses as not racist. "The Indian was jarring me big time," Jackiey Budden, Jade Goody's mother, told Davina after her eviction "Sherpelle, Sherpa, whatever her name is." If "the Indian" doesn't strike you as racist, try calling people "the Jew" or "the black" and see how comfortable you feel.

Earlier, Jackie inquired whether Shilpa lived "in a house or in a shack?" And her daughter, whose sole claim to fame is to have been the most cerebrally challenged housemate ever, joined fellow contestants Jo and Danielle in making fun of Shilpa's accent and deriding her cooking as too spicy to try.

On another occasion, when Shilpa was applying facial bleach cream, the coven was on hand to ladle out kindred abuse. "Do you get stubble?" asked Danielle. "Like a man!" roared Jo. "She wants to be white," Danielle reported to Jade. Choric laughter followed.

These attitudes aren't, alas, wholly uncommon. The filthy taint of racism only manages to pollute Big Brother because it also pollutes Britain.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 00:42   #17
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deffeh
i am impressed how quickly indians manage to construct and burn effegys and flags. its pretty ****ing efficient
there's probably organisations with filing cabinets full of all the flags of the world, so whomever they are annoyed at they can express it without the need to resort to burning people.*

And everyone's got an effegy of Jade Goody and a can of petrol just in case, right?





*People who have a go at flag burners never seem to have a problem with people who sell flags. If you sell American flags and regularly recieve an order for 5000 flags to be shipped to the Iran you've got to know something's up. there's got to be a part of you which thinks 'Hang on a minute, i know people love America over there, but what are they doing with all these flags?'
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 01:05   #18
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

In reference to what Ste posted, 1) Dennis Rodman was in the Big Brother house? I'm saddened someone what cool would go in and I'm saddened I wasn't told - I would have watched at least an episode. 2) The last paragraph raises a good point .
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 20:31   #19
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

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Originally Posted by Hebdomad
I haven't watched celebrity big brother because I like to think I'm an intelligent, witty, beautiful human being so I don't know if the accusations of bullying and racism are true (do tell me what you think), but it seems a bit much really. I mean, who cares what a dull non-celebrity and her mother think?
Funny you say that, Jade's mother was also in the big brother house and referred to shilpa as 'the Indian'.
I have been watching the show and think that since Jade doesn’t know the meaning of - 'Exclusive' - 'Chromosome' - 'complimentary'
And other words that had to be explained to her by Big Brother, I think that she cannot be held responsible for the views of the nation. Her views and actions are not racial but ignorant (I use the word ignorant loosely as I doubt that she does it purposely... so I suppose the correct term would be stupidity)

Tonight Big Brother are showing the clips when Jade called Shilpa a Poppa dom, could be quite amusing to watch, not that I condone her actions.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 23:01   #20
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Quote:
Film actor Anupam Kher said that, as an Indian, he was "disgusted" by what has happened.

"It is like we're going back 100 years. I think that if you want to get back at someone, then you should use your skill in your language and not racial slurs," he said.
Quote:
..use your skill in your language..
See, that's where all these complaints are missing the point. Skill in language? These people have more skill in picking their nose.
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Unread 18 Jan 2007, 23:51   #21
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

http://news.independent.co.uk/media/...14:06:44-00:00

Carphone warehouse have pulled of their sponsorship deal :lolz:
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Unread 19 Jan 2007, 00:19   #22
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

It said tonight on the show that Jade has made an apox £15 million off of the back off Big Brother. Thats absolutely mad!! I wish that i could do that.
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 21:04   #23
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

I read this interesting enough article today in the paper and I decided it connected enough with this thread, and partially enough with a few others and some common themes on GD, that it was worth typing out to pass it on. Although he's a bit of a socialist ranter at times I find this article very insightful. Anyways, enjoy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fintan O'Toole in the Irish Times[/quote
People are seldom stupid, but their words and actions often are. Most of us are stupid in some respects, smart in others. And because we know this, we tend to be deeply insecure about our own intelligence. We need reassurance, and we get it by labelling other people as stupid.

Any teacher wll tell you that a child who is having trouble with a subject in class will reach for the ultimate weapon: "That's stupid". This mechanism now operates on a grand scale. In society as a whole, we increasingly organise and justify hierarchies by pretending that the rich are rich because they're smart and the poor are poor because they're stupid. What we've seen in the whole Big Brother melodrama over the last week is how deep this assumption goes.

The new form of celebrity that has emerged from sport, especially soccer, and reality TV shows is disturbing because it confuses the distinction between rich and smart on the one hand and poor and stupid on the other. The standard explanation for the hatred that someone like Jade Goody evokes is that she has become rich and famous without having any talent whatsoever. But this is hard to credit, especially in a society like Britain which places at its apex a royal family whose wealth and glamour is entirely unrelated to any kind of talent. Manufactured celebrity merely confers on someone like Goody a little of the money and the status that hundreds of thousands of people in our societies acquire through inheritance.

What really sparks the outrage is not the spectacle of undeserved wealth but the fact that it is conferred on the undeserving poor. The way to deal with this disturbance is to reach for the old reliable - stupidity. A Jade Goody may, alas, escape poverty but, we assure ourselves, she will always be stupid.

The irony is that if you want to see stupidity in action, you need look no further than much of the self righteous reaction to the undoubtedly racist bullying in the Big Brother house. Racism is vile because it treats people, not on their merits, but as members of a category to which subhuman characteristics have already been assigned. But in condemning Goody and her little gang of bullies, much respectable opinion resorted to precisely the same mechanism.

On the BBC's Question Time, the former Tory minister Edwina Currie called Goody and the two young women who were her companions "slags". The audience applauded enthusiastically.

This kind of language - "slags", "scum", "chavs", "povvos" - is threaded through the whole debate, often used by people who claim to be outraged that Goody called "Shilpy Shetty" "Shlipa Poppadom".

And it is not just an intemperate but understandable reaction to the on-screen bullying. Goody in particular attracted the most vile, fascistic ranting long before the whole Shilpa episode. The online Urban Dictionary (hurrah, a reference to the internet - JBG), a respectable, user-created dictionary of contemporary slang, defines "Jade Goody" as "A horrific abomination of a human being. Became famous for being as thick as, and uglier than, pigshit after appearing on Big Brother." And the definition gets much worse.

After last week the new social etiquette seems to be that racism is not acceptable but you can call uneducated, white, working-class people anything you like.

It is now okay to regard the urban underclass as a kind of genetic sludge-tank, occupied by a subhuman race with no capacity for intelligent life. There is nothing new in this: the Irish as a whole were once belonged to this category. The eugenics movement, promoted by intelligent, cultivated people, proposed the sterilisation of the lower orders to stop them passing on their defective genes.

Condemning people for the supposedly ineradicable stupidity is easier, after all, than tackling the long-term structures of inequality and deprivation that create and sustain an underclass. And it's easier, it seems, to meet one kind of stupidity with another than to think intelligently about our societies
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 22:33   #24
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

The author makes a good point about the social indignation. But, for me anyway, it's more about the fact she's so very annoying and that she plagues me wherever I go. Racist bullying happens everyday, I just don't want to have every media orifice vomit it at me wherever I go.

Probably the only good thing to come out of this is the social repulsion against bullying and racism. Not that, as the author pointed out, the rebuttal was anything to be proud of.
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Unread 24 Jan 2007, 22:38   #25
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

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Originally Posted by Hebdomad
The author makes a good point about the social indignation. But, for me anyway, it's more about the fact she's so very annoying and that she plagues me wherever I go. Racist bullying happens everyday, I just don't want to have every media orifice vomit it at me wherever I go.
Neither do I, but it's there everyday, whether they are talking about Jade Goody or not

Quote:
Probably the only good thing to come out of this is the social repulsion against bullying and racism. Not that, as the author pointed out, the rebuttal was anything to be proud of.
It's just lip service and nothing will change
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 00:19   #26
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

ok i've now watched the relevent bits so can comment.

Shilpa was being bullied, but i saw nothing more than you'd see every day in a school yard from many girls aged 12 or over. Or in a nightclub/pub or an office enviroment.

A group of females can be complete bitches, and rip another female to shreds, Shilpa stood up to it, and Jade being the ringleader now gone it will stop.
Thats life ... its hardly racism, tho a couple of comments were racially orientated, their aim was to bully and degrade Shilpa because of .. ohh i dunno why .. cos shes pretty, rich, famous for actually doing something, you pick.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 00:43   #27
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

I'm slightly confused, the author calls Jade Goody 'stupid' but seemingly objects to others using stronger, though more apt perjoratives. I don't understand this navel gazing at the word chav, or ned, or scally. There is a connection, though perhaps its just me, between those who 'huff' most about mentioning racism in society and clutching for their own 'white oriented' victim card.

Quote:
After last week the new social etiquette seems to be that racism is not acceptable but you can call uneducated, white, working-class people anything you like.
Yes, you ****ing well can!

If a poor black and uneducated moron acts like a moron, i'll call him a moron. Though his surroundings and wealth may or may not have contributed towards his ignorance, condeming and commenting on his actions is not the same as calling him a ******. Infact the chav/townie/rudeboy/ned/scally identity can be and is used regardless of the colour and/or circumstance of an individual.

Since when have you people turned into a bunch of pussies who take offence??!!?
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 01:09   #28
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

I think the point was that all the ranting and moralising takes away from time taken to sort out the real underlying social problems which cause problems like this, and the over-the-top reaction to the problem.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 01:29   #29
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
I think the point was that all the ranting and moralising takes away from time taken to sort out the real underlying social problems which cause problems like this, and the over-the-top reaction to the problem.

I don't think ignorance and racism can be wholly linked to poverty or circumstance. Jade Goody's wealth hasn't stopped her from being an idiot.

That said id question the reaction, to the apparent over reaction. The complaints were everything to do with celebrity culture and to a far lesser extent racism and bullying. Though she isn't famous in white britain, Shilpa Shetty has apparently achieved a fair degree of artistic success. Her fans voted in higher numbers and were more devoted than those of Jade Goody - that probably has something to do with her having achieved fame though merit rather than BB. Cameron Diaz, Angeline Joile, Kate Winslet or anyone with a large devoted fan base, would have aroused similar reactions. The reaction was proportional to her 'fame' As ste's link pointed out, theres been racism in BB in the past.


edit what im trying to point out is the bigger reaction was because she was a celebrity and people 'identified' with her beforehand. The public hasn't reacted in a similar manner when 'normal people' were on the recieving end of bullying/racism
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 02:09   #30
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

That doesn't really relate to what was being said in the article which was more about the hatred towards certain people, and groups of people, which indeed preceded the incident. Your edit in fact seems to partly point out something the article was saying. Are you sure you actually read it?



I'd definitely describe the individual mentioned in your link as an outlier although I would be interested to see different meaningful analyses.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 05:14   #31
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
That doesn't really relate to what was being said in the article which was more about the hatred towards certain people, and groups of people, which indeed preceded the incident. Your edit in fact seems to partly point out something the article was saying. Are you sure you actually read it?
Yes, i try not to randomly quote passages. I can't speak for ireland, but in britain the words chav, rudeboy et al aren't synonyms for the 'white working class'. The author seems to believe we're characterising an entire racial-socio-economic class, whereas we're calling certain people dickheads by another name.

He is quite correct the dangers in racism exist in negatively associating certain hereditary traits that you usually wish to erradicate*. He is grossly incorrect to try and twist the formulation of new words into a way that tries to apply that to a situation where your genetic makeup plays no part. Besides why this emphasis on 'white working class' the middle and upper classes are equally negatively portrayed - often by the wwc. They offend me with their overly stereotypical depicitions of suburbia. I shall sit here and huff whilst calling them emo rpers.












*This ignores any possibility of hereditary influence on intelligence, but thats fine if we deal with everything from the standpoint of the individual.

Interestingly and i suppose controversially the problem i have with homophobia is what i consider to be a complete ignorance about human sexuality. I don't think anyone is 'gay' or 'straight' in a simple binary way, rather its an individual 'sexuality function' that maps onto the above words differently for everyone. Calling someone a poof or a queer implies you cannot possibly be one, whilst id accept an individual gender preference in the same manner as a preference for blondes or brunettes (and inherently in that is the acceptance you can be influenced by fashion) to imply gender-sexuality-purity is as absurd as saying i'm 100% white/anglo-saxon etc.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 05:50   #32
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Yes, i try not to randomly quote passages. I can't speak for ireland, but in britain the words chav, rudeboy et al aren't synonyms for the 'white working class'. The author seems to believe we're characterising an entire racial-socio-economic class, whereas we're calling certain people dickheads by another name.
Are you sure? To a large extent those classified as chavs are almost certainly more likely to be considered criminals regardless of whether or not they have actually committed a crime. The way in which this concept impinges on our perceptions and, more importantly, reactions is the essential problem with racist thinking. In this way the differences become rather minor, although I would admit the author rather muddles his words. That said it's not really the point I'd give too much of a shit about. My problem wouldn't be with various ways of speaking, after all I see nothing morally wrong in calling someone anything, more so that ranting about how shit jade goody is is a vast waste of time that could far better have been spent in other more constructive ways (including a few specific ones), a point previously ignored I felt.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 08:21   #33
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Yes, i try not to randomly quote passages. I can't speak for ireland, but in britain the words chav, rudeboy et al aren't synonyms for the 'white working class'. The author seems to believe we're characterising an entire racial-socio-economic class, whereas we're calling certain people dickheads by another name.
I'm not sure you can speak for everyone who uses such terms though. You may mean one thing, someone else may mean another. Same with racist terms. I made some jokey racist comment the other day to a girl and she turned and said "Yeah, I was taught that being black was God's curse." I kind of lol'd but then realised she was serious.

So if you (or I, or whomever) says "chav" we may be just using it as one of an array of words to call people shit. Others may be referring to a specific subset of people.

I remember seeing graffiti recently which said "Chavs should be sterilised". The word sterilised had been crossed off by another colour pen and someone had written below "No, no - castrated and then shot" or something like that. A quick glance at most UK forums (or Google) will reveal this is hardly a unique sentiment. There's a Yahoo Answers topic on "Should chavs be sterilised" and while I didn't reall the answers, in the first 8 or 9 there's at least two responses saying "No, they should be killed". And from our own liberal forum :
Quote:
Then they [chavs] need to be educated, or sterilised, whichever would be cheaper.
Quote:
Their parents should be sterilised to prevent more of the little f'kers.
Quote:
I've never seen violent crime that wasn't perpitrated by someone like this.
I've never seen a stolen car being driven by anyone other than someone who's a ****ing scumbag/chav.
Quote:
they should make it law: all chavs to be shot on sight
OK, a lot of that is out of context. Some of it is probably just using the word chav as a synonym for prick, but in other cases, it's no so clear.

And of course, people don't necessarily mean these things, they're often sounding off and such remarks often follow someone being beaten or attacked, so it's understandable they'd be peeved. But I don't think you can necessarily dismiss the potential dangers of such thinking. Before eugenics became unpopular thanks to those wacky Germans more than one country had schemes for "cleaning up" their gene pool. Yes, these measures were usually to do with ethnicity or disabilities, but it's fair to say that undesirables of any colour could end up in such schemes, should the political climate change.

I personally find it depressing but if you mention William Shockley's idea of paying people with IQ's under a 100 to undergo sterilisation you'll find there's a considerable number of people in agreement.

Last edited by Dante Hicks; 25 Jan 2007 at 10:23.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 10:08   #34
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Yes .. thats akin to ethnic cleansing, as misguided and twisted as certain sections of the population of the world are, they still have a right to life.
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Then they came for the Jews,
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Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
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Then they came for me —
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 13:39   #35
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Yes, i try not to randomly quote passages. I can't speak for ireland, but in britain the words chav, rudeboy et al aren't synonyms for the 'white working class'.
Of course they are. Everyone else is a Gansta or a terrorist!!1!!1!1??/1?!!!
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 15:55   #36
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Are you sure? To a large extent those classified as chavs are almost certainly more likely to be considered criminals regardless of whether or not they have actually committed a crime.
No, its just a taste thing. The police mainly consider black people as the criminals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante_Hicks
I'm not sure you can speak for everyone who uses such terms though. You may mean one thing, someone else may mean another. Same with racist terms. I made some jokey racist comment the other day to a girl and she turned and said "Yeah, I was taught that being black was God's curse." I kind of lol'd but then realised she was serious.

So if you (or I, or whomever) says "chav" we may be just using it as one of an array of words to call people shit. Others may be referring to a specific subset of people.

I remember seeing graffiti recently which said "Chavs should be sterilised". The word sterilised had been crossed off by another colour pen and someone had written below "No, no - castrated and then shot" or something like that. A quick glance at most UK forums (or Google) will reveal this is hardly a unique sentiment. There's a Yahoo Answers topic on "Should chavs be sterilised" and while I didn't reall the answers, in the first 8 or 9 there's at least two responses saying "No, they should be killed". And from our own liberal forum :

I've read this twice and am unsure how its meant to be a responce to the paragraph in my post that you quoted, i did start it off by saying 'i can't speak for ireland' which id have hoped would be fairly obvious in indicating it was my pov.


Quote:
OK, a lot of that is out of context. Some of it is probably just using the word chav as a synonym for prick, but in other cases, it's no so clear.

All of them are using the word chav as synonyms for prick, and yes they're out of context.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 16:01   #37
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

"I can't speak for Ireland" seems to imply you are speaking for the UK in this matter.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 16:02   #38
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

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"I can't speak for Ireland" seems to imply you are speaking for the UK in this matter.
Well then i apologise.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 16:14   #39
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Well then i apologise.
That's okay, you can't be held responsible for your country of birth.








However rerhaps you could invent some sort of death clock for me as recompense?
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 19:30   #40
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
I've read this twice and am unsure how its meant to be a responce to the paragraph in my post that you quoted, i did start it off by saying 'i can't speak for ireland' which id have hoped would be fairly obvious in indicating it was my pov.
Sorry, but when I saw this :
Quote:
in britain the words chav, rudeboy et al aren't synonyms for the 'white working class'
I thought you were denying the possibility that the word chav was used in Brain to refer to a specific subset of people. Chav isn't synonomous with "white working class" simply because the latter group is larger than the former and there are plenty of white working class people who aren't chavs (even according to the stereotypes). But I would say that in the majority of cases, chavs does refer to lower class persons, or people who act in such a fashion. Of the many dubious etymologies of the word chav, several are related to gypsies and at least one refers to the "ch" in "chav" standing for Council Housing.
Quote:
All of them are using the word chav as synonyms for prick, and yes they're out of context.
I'd say they're doing more than that. I'm pretty sure at least one of the posters of such remarks (now no longer with us) would probably stand by the comments too. Yeah, there are context, but calling for the sterilisation of a group of people is more than just calling someone a prick.

That's why I especially emphasised the idea of sterilisation. Sure, you might use that in relation to isolated individuals (i.e. "I'd prefer it if Sunday8pm didn't breed") but usually there's at least the implication that there's something about those people (i.e. a genetic tendency) which is likely to be reproduced in their children. Sure, you might want to sterilise someone for non-eugenic reasons, but I suspect that sort of argument isn't very common.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 20:00   #41
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I'm pretty sure at least one of the posters of such remarks (now no longer with us)
Killed by a chav no doubt for the change in his pocket.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 20:42   #42
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

The word "CHAV" was brought into the language by the law enforcement agencies in the UK, it is a descriptive term that is derived from the location and culture of certain offenders: Specifically it refers to people who come from a Culture of Violence and live in Council Houses

C ouncil
H ouses
A nd
V iolence
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 22:38   #43
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Sorry, but when I saw this :

I thought you were denying the possibility that the word chav was used in Brain to refer to a specific subset of people. Chav isn't synonomous with "white working class" simply because the latter group is larger than the former and there are plenty of white working class people who aren't chavs (even according to the stereotypes).
I'm still not sure i understand the point you're making, but we'll agree that it isn't synonomous.


Quote:
But I would say that in the majority of cases, chavs does refer to lower class persons, or people who act in such a fashion. Of the many dubious etymologies of the word chav, several are related to gypsies and at least one refers to the "ch" in "chav" standing for Council Housing.
I can't comment on the etymology of the word, suffice it to say synonyms of chav, such as scally, ned, townie and rudeboy aren't racially derived.

Is 'lower class person' a euphemism for 'acting like dickheads'? How far up our own arses are we to go with this? your class based terminology is offensive dante


Quote:
I'd say they're doing more than that. I'm pretty sure at least one of the posters of such remarks (now no longer with us) would probably stand by the comments too. Yeah, there are context, but calling for the sterilisation of a group of people is more than just calling someone a prick.


Theres little point in us discussing this if you're going to be so flippant about context. Context was everything in those sentences you quoted, and you readily admit you took them out of context. Noone was seriously advocating sterilisation and to try and equate it thus is beyond absurd.



Quote:
That's why I especially emphasised the idea of sterilisation. Sure, you might use that in relation to isolated individuals (i.e. "I'd prefer it if Sunday8pm didn't breed") but usually there's at least the implication that there's something about those people (i.e. a genetic tendency) which is likely to be reproduced in their children. Sure, you might want to sterilise someone for non-eugenic reasons, but I suspect that sort of argument isn't very common.

Dante i want rpers and emo commies sterilised. It is obvious that im serious; even over the internet the absolute lack of sarcasm in my post is clear. Ignore the bold and italic highlighting, i want rpers and emo commies to have their balls ripped off.

Some may say that my unfortunate use of language is akin to hitler himself since my ethnic hate for roleplaying emotional communists will inevitably lead to my gassing them; i say to those people that you are apologists and come the revolution you shall also smell burned almonds.

In the desolate, pedantic language of roleplaying emotional communists there is no distinction between cynical though harsh humour and genocide...and they are correct, for that they will die.
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Unread 25 Jan 2007, 23:25   #44
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Is 'lower class person' a euphemism for 'acting like dickheads'?
Erm..no. It's a euphemism for poor people. If I go outside my house and see a black guy with a very expensive car in a suit, playing music very very loudly then I might think he is a dickhead. Yet at no point would I think "****ing chav". If the Old Etonians Rugby Club reunion starts singing their team song very loudly in the street late at night they might also be considered dickheads. Yet no-one would think of calling them chavs.

So chav, at the very least means a certain kind of dickhead. They are certainly not synonyms for obvious reasons. And so the question becomes what characteristics require you to be a chav? Could Yahwe ever be a chav? Could MrL? If not, why not? Is it because the "chav" comment relates to more than their actions?

Now, just because there is a word for a group doesn't mean we're going to automatically march to fascism obviously. But I would say that it's incredibly naive to assume that words like chav are mere synonyms for curse words.
Quote:
Noone was seriously advocating sterilisation
How do you know this? Which mind reading powers are you using? Because reading the hundreds of posts by at least one of the people quoted I can find nothing to make me think it's safe to assume he was joking.

Can you seriously say you know their politics well enough to say that for each of the people who posted? Or for the rest of the internet?

My context comment was because I didn't think anyone I quoted to think I was having a personal go at them - that'd be unfair with such a serious subject matter. In some of the "my mate got mugged threads" people do start getting a little Charles Bronson and that shouldn't be held against them (which was my only point).
Quote:
Dante i want rpers and emo commies sterilised. It is obvious that im serious; even over the internet the absolute lack of sarcasm in my post is clear. Ignore the bold and italic highlighting, i want rpers and emo commies to have their balls ripped off.
I think the problem here, is that neither you nor I know the full scope of people's personal politics.

I am fully willing to admit that most people who post (or write) "sterilise all chavs" are almost certainly joking, or being ironic, or being sarcastic or whatever. But are you seriously saying that it's totally impossible for the converse to be true?

As they say in the Simpsons - are we being sarcastic? I don't even know anymore. With all the sort of uber-light hearted stuff everyone does on the internet it's difficult to tell. Pretty much everyone on this forum has done some kind of anti-semetic remark and certainly among my real-life friends it's the same. And so then you meet people who wear German WW2 uniforms while out clubbing and you presume there's some sort of post-modern ironic kitsch statement being made, even if it's not immediately obvious what it is. And then there's people who have scarred a swastika into their chest and who have pictures of Hitler up on their walls. And then you visit the homes of criminals who are almost certainly psychotics and you notice they sure do a lot of fascist salutes and boy do they have a lot of confederate flags. Or the cop who is married to one of your inlaws who jokes about black people and then you hear is suspended for kicking a black suspect to death.

And then you realise maybe it's not a joke for some of these people.

Now, despite my above Godwin, I am not saying that the "chav" situation is anyway similar. But I would not assume the opposite either, that every person who talks about such things does not want them to happen or is joking. Off-hand I can think of at least four members of my family who would cheerfully vote for forced sterilisation for anyone breaking an ASBO for instance.

edit : Also, I'd add that even very serious thoughts of sterilising role playing communists (I don't know any btw, but there's bound to be one!) wouldn't (or shouldn't) be considered as dangerous as other forms of "discrimination" because there's no real history of organised prejudice against such groups. Similarly, racism must be taken much more seriously than anti-underclass sentiment, but that doesn't mean anti-underclass sentiment is nothing either.
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Unread 26 Jan 2007, 00:32   #45
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Erm..no. It's a euphemism for poor people. If I go outside my house and see a black guy with a very expensive car in a suit, playing music very very loudly then I might think he is a dickhead. Yet at no point would I think "****ing chav".
innit




Quote:
If the Old Etonians Rugby Club reunion starts singing their team song very loudly in the street late at night they might also be considered dickheads. Yet no-one would think of calling them chavs.
Why not? How am i to know they're old etonians? And even if they are, yeah i still would

Quote:
So chav, at the very least means a certain kind of dickhead. They are certainly not synonyms for obvious reasons. And so the question becomes what characteristics require you to be a chav?
Broadly anti-social idiocy.


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Could Yahwe ever be a chav?
If he fell out of clubs drunk and started fights with random strangers, yes.

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Could MrL?
Again, yes!! im curious why you think they wouldn't? Their general posting makes me think it unlikely, but if they chose to act like dickheads and we gave a random selection of people some pejoratives to call them, why do you exclude the possibility of 'chav' being mentioned?




Quote:
Now, just because there is a word for a group doesn't mean we're going to automatically march to fascism obviously. But I would say that it's incredibly naive to assume that words like chav are mere synonyms for curse words.
In the absence of any other evidence, i think it ridiculous to suggest anything other than that.


Quote:
How do you know this? Which mind reading powers are you using? Because reading the hundreds of posts by at least one of the people quoted I can find nothing to make me think it's safe to assume he was joking.
Not mind reading powers as such, more 'general intelligence'

Quote:
Can you seriously say you know their politics well enough to say that for each of the people who posted? Or for the rest of the internet?
I can only go by what they post, and nothing in what they've posted makes me seriously consider the notion of them supporting death camps. I cannot speak for the internet, can you?

Quote:
I am fully willing to admit that most people who post (or write) "sterilise all chavs" are almost certainly joking, or being ironic, or being sarcastic or whatever. But are you seriously saying that it's totally impossible for the converse to be true?
This is getting absurd, how am I meant to state something is totally impossible?!?!? Yes dante it is totally and completely impossible for them to be anything other than ironic (im being sarcastic btw).

I come to a reasonable likelyhood of them joking based on the context of their posts and the presumption im not talking to a psychopath.

Quote:
As they say in the Simpsons - are we being sarcastic? I don't even know anymore. With all the sort of uber-light hearted stuff everyone does on the internet it's difficult to tell. Pretty much everyone on this forum has done some kind of anti-semetic remark and certainly among my real-life friends it's the same. And so then you meet people who wear German WW2 uniforms while out clubbing and you presume there's some sort of post-modern ironic kitsch statement being made, even if it's not immediately obvious what it is. And then there's people who have scarred a swastika into their chest and who have pictures of Hitler up on their walls. And then you visit the homes of criminals who are almost certainly psychotics and you notice they sure do a lot of fascist salutes and boy do they have a lot of confederate flags. Or the cop who is married to one of your inlaws who jokes about black people and then you hear is suspended for kicking a black suspect to death.
Yes they're being ironic/sarcastic/postmodern/kitsch/emo. Perhaps you should ask tnf whether he feels comfortable saying hes a jew in slimes, as opposed to a bnp gathering.

You visit psychotic criminals?!!

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And then you realise maybe it's not a joke for some of these people.
Then don't visit them.

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Now, despite my above Godwin, I am not saying that the "chav" situation is anyway similar. But I would not assume the opposite either, that every person who talks about such things does not want them to happen or is joking. Off-hand I can think of at least four members of my family who would cheerfully vote for forced sterilisation for anyone breaking an ASBO for instance.
No, they're just angry and tired.

Quote:
edit : Also, I'd add that even very serious thoughts of sterilising role playing communists (I don't know any btw, but there's bound to be one!) wouldn't (or shouldn't) be considered as dangerous as other forms of "discrimination" because there's no real history of organised prejudice against such groups. Similarly, racism must be taken much more seriously than anti-underclass sentiment, but that doesn't mean anti-underclass sentiment is nothing either.

In the absence of specific reasons why 'anti-underclass'* sentiment has presented a problem in modern society id take it as being nothing. If anti-social-behaviour-orders (regardless of their debatable shitness) apply equally to all members of society i don't see why its a problem to call anyone who acts in a certain manner consistent with them a chav.

If you're suggesting that said 'anti-social behaviour' is part of the ethnicity and culture of 'poor people' id suggest a petition to make parliment give 'poor people' the right to shit in the street, that said i think its patronising and condescending to say 'poor people act like this' (granted you don't accept chav as being a synonym for working class).



*What the hell is underclass? Who defines it? anecdotal experiences from friends and my own life experiences pretty much showed rich kids get bullied more. Being seen as a member of the proletariat isn't a problem, being seen as 'middle/upper class' or a toff singles you out for ill treatment. Hand on heart i have never ever seen anyone bullied because they were poor, on the contrary those who came from wealthy families tried to hide their background.

I think yahwe and jakiri would be harassed in certain areas of the country because of the way they 'acted' (even though the way they acted didn't break the law). If anything class bigotry in britain runs in the opposite way to which you describe. If a bb house full off yahwes and jakiris bullied a deffeh** id obviously be appalled. But all the class bullying i have ever witnessed has been the other way round. To suggest the white working class are only at the recieving end of 'class bigotry' let alone that what they experience is comparable to the historic bigotry based on gender/racial/sexual lines is insane.




**deffeh im sorry, im not saying you're crap
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Unread 26 Jan 2007, 00:37   #46
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

nb im not saying those of a certain socio-economic background don't have their problems, rather putting those problems in the context of class, let alone equating those 'class problems' to anything else, when they're 'as bigoted' as anyone else wrt class is silly.
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Unread 26 Jan 2007, 08:59   #47
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Judge
The word "CHAV" was brought into the language by the law enforcement agencies in the UK, it is a descriptive term that is derived from the location and culture of certain offenders: Specifically it refers to people who come from a Culture of Violence and live in Council Houses

C ouncil
H ouses
A nd
V iolence
thank goodness. i for one am reassured now that the institutionally racist are associated with it.
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Unread 27 Jan 2007, 23:28   #48
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Again, yes!! im curious why you think they wouldn't?
Because to me the word "chav" means something else. Obviously we've got different definitions here, but to me a "chav" can't be someone who isn't from one of the lower social classes. Similarly, I would only use the word chav to describe people in the UK. These aren't value judgements btw.
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You visit psychotic criminals?!!
I have done in the past, yes.
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Then don't visit them.
That wasn't really the point. I'm not complaining about their views I was merely pointing out they exist. There are people out there who believe these things, and perhaps for liberal people like ourselves it's a bit upsetting that this is the case. But I assure you that it is.
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i don't see why its a problem to call anyone who acts in a certain manner consistent with them a chav.
Well, I wouldn't see any problem with using your definition of chav either.
Quote:
If you're suggesting that said 'anti-social behaviour' is part of the ethnicity and culture of 'poor people' id suggest a petition to make parliment give 'poor people' the right to shit in the street, that said i think its patronising and condescending to say 'poor people act like this' (granted you don't accept chav as being a synonym for working class).
I have no idea what you're talking about here. I am not suggesting the word chav should be used for people of x or y group, I am merely reporting my understanding of the word. Similarly, to me the term "black" means people of Afro-Carribean descent. However, other people use the term "black" (when speaking about race) to mean anyone who isn't white. As always, we have to try and work out what version of the word someone is using. I'd argue that not everyone is using your definition.
Quote:
*What the hell is underclass? Who defines it?
There's a number of definitions, all with different implications. In the UK it tends to means a "hard core" group of people who have been on welfare benefits for most of their life, for whom getting a job is very unlikely (and possibly even an alien concept), who live in state housing, have low levels of educational attainment, etc. The implication is usually that their children will face the same issues. It's a term associated with ideas around the "dependency culture" and some of the other Thatcherite ideas popular in the 80's.

And every single person who uses a word helps to define it. Over time the origin of specific words or phrases is studied by those interested in that sort of thing.

Quote:
anecdotal experiences from friends and my own life experiences pretty much showed rich kids get bullied more. Being seen as a member of the proletariat isn't a problem, being seen as 'middle/upper class' or a toff singles you out for ill treatment. Hand on heart i have never ever seen anyone bullied because they were poor, on the contrary those who came from wealthy families tried to hide their background.
I agree with most of this (although I suspect it varies from place to place - it depends on the dominant class grouping) but I'm not sure how it relates to what I said.
Quote:
To suggest the white working class are only at the recieving end of 'class bigotry' let alone that what they experience is comparable to the historic bigotry based on gender/racial/sexual lines is insane.
Good thing I never suggested that then!

You're talking about bullying again, which is not really what I mean. Prejudice of course manifests in a number of ways. I seem to remember reading an account of a black man who had lived in the UK since the 1950's. He said that in the early days, the biggest threat he felt black people faced was from gangs of teenage kids (teddy boys I guess) who felt they could assault black people when they saw them and were involved in some of the early race riots. But as black communities got more settled (and maybe as youth culture changed, I'm not sure) the threat increasingly came from the police.

The potential danger I saw was not groups of toffs beating up poor people in the street. That sort of thing just isn't likely to occur in most of the UK. I am talking about the response of the state. In the 1980's in both the United States and the UK I would argue there was a backlash of sorts against an ill-defined "underclass". Now, this was not a violent backlash, but it did mean that welfare benefits were cut, social programs for certain areas were decimated, etc, etc. The results from such policies I'd argue were a good deal worse than people being bullied.

p.s. You should read the Bell Curve. Seriously, this was a book written by two high profile intellectuals which was on the New York Times bestseller lists for quite a while. It outlines in some coherence an anti-underclass programme, albeit indirectly.
p.p.s. I'd also say I'm not trying to say one class is worse/better than another in this context, and neither am I saying anything about who is more or less bigoted than anyone else. I am merely saying that words like chav can carry connotations with them beyond merely someone is a dickhead.
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Unread 27 Jan 2007, 23:44   #49
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I am merely saying that words like chav can carry connotations with them beyond merely someone is a dickhead.

Fair enough, though tbh any word can, and rather than second or third guess intended meaning in everyone, i take the view that everyone is basically good and not a nazi. You may say this is naive


Quote:
p.s. You should read the Bell Curve.

I've heard of it, because of the race issue obviously. Id always thought it was some sort of alchemist lunacy like freakonomics. I'll give it a try.
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Unread 28 Jan 2007, 00:48   #50
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Re: Jade Goody: Enemy of civilisation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
p.s. You should read the Bell Curve. Seriously, this was a book written by two high profile intellectuals which was on the New York Times bestseller lists for quite a while. It outlines in some coherence an anti-underclass programme, albeit indirectly.
I hadnt heard of The Bell Curve, at least enough to investigate it before anyway. But a quick read of the wikipedia article, and i saw this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by wikipedia
Herrnstein and Murray recommended the elimination of welfare programs (p. 548):
We can imagine no recommendation for using the government to manipulate fertility that does not have dangers. But this highlights the problem: The United States already has policies that inadvertently social-engineer who has babies, and it is encouraging the wrong women. If the United States did as much to encourage high-IQ women to have babies as it now does to encourage low-IQ women, it would rightly be described as engaging in aggressive manipulation of fertility. The technically precise description of America's fertility policy is that it subsidizes births among poor women, who are also disproportionately at the low end of the intelligence distribution. We urge generally that these policies, represented by the extensive network of cash and services for low-income women who have babies, be ended.
Thus, are you implying that policy to remove the underclass would be to end and/or severely restrict welfare payments to the poor, in order to force independence from the State? I can understand how that makes sense, but even though i'm pretty callous and an economist in training, even i can see that you would be removing much of the underclass by killing them through neglect.

It would save quite a bit of money though - ~37% of the Australian Commonwealth budget is spent on social security.
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