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Unread 3 Oct 2006, 23:03   #51
milo
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Re: Another School Shooting

Incidently since the concept of 'suicide gunmen' was brought up, i really can't see the conceptual difference between allowing pilots to arm themselves to fight off hijacking and allowing teachers to arm themselves to fight off hostage taking.
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Unread 3 Oct 2006, 23:07   #52
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Re: Another School Shooting

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Originally Posted by milo
Stuff
I'll let someone else deal with individual points as I really can't be bothered atm. But what ou basically seem to be saying is that people should be allowed to carry guns if they want and if more people die, then so what?

You also seem to have never heard of Columbine.
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Unread 3 Oct 2006, 23:23   #53
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Re: Another School Shooting

No dude im saying that if more people carried guns for self protection there'd be less likelyhood of them dying in such encounters* and assuming the shootings were legitimate the number of deaths that resulted would be besides the point.

If the teachers had been armed at columbine the number of deaths would potentially have been less.



*as well as other violent crimes
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Unread 3 Oct 2006, 23:36   #54
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Re: Another School Shooting

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Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Wel, if you believe that the world is objectively one giant chemical reaction, predestined to react in a certain way due to the initial action of the big bang, then yes.

If you don't mean that then, no. However, if you are showing no signs of a desire to abuse children (but are constantly thinking about it) then go on to do it then what can be done? Unless you lock everyone up then some people will slip through the net, whatever happens.
Well, what I'd propose doing is firstly attempting to remove the stigma from merely having such thoughts (nobody ostracises me from society for confessing to wanting to rob a bank every once in a while). The way you'd start to go about this would be through mass media campaigns probably.



Quote:
You could, but we're getting into the absurd. Even this is not fool-proof. If someone wants to commit such a crime, they will find a way. Or a different target.
Precisely, they're not going to be stopped by gun laws. Do you think people can't buy weapons in the UK or Ireland?
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Unread 4 Oct 2006, 00:12   #55
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Re: Another School Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Incidently since the concept of 'suicide gunmen' was brought up, i really can't see the conceptual difference between allowing pilots to arm themselves to fight off hijacking and allowing teachers to arm themselves to fight off hostage taking.
Pilots are usually behind locked doors (at least after 9/11), and would keep the gun in a secure lockbox. Airports also have very high security now a days and it's damned near impossible to get a weapon on a plane.

The idea of arming teachers is just wrong for the following reasons:
1. In order to have the gun accessible in case of a hostage situation, or student on rampage, they'd have to have the gun easily accessable, while teacher's writing on the board, disgruntled student could rush or sneak to the spot where gun is and kill everyone, or whatever.

2. Having teachers carry guns or other weapons would again as I mentioned earlier would probably have an effect on the students that there school is not safe and there lives are in danger whenever they enter the school. It would create a sense of fear in the school, and could possibly effect the students psychologically, or there ability to focus or get good grades.

3. Parents might not want there students going to a school where teachers arm themselves and put there children in private or home schooling, which would decrease the funding going into the school. Or the children themselves might not want to return.

The main problem is really that there is no great solution. Arming people just gives more chance to an accident of a student shooting himself or others, or just more shootings in general. Stopping the sale of weapons will put a slight deterrant but if they're resovle is high enough they'll still find a way there's litterally millions of guns in the world that aren't being sold legitimately. So while it may in the future have a small affect, it's not really a solution, it will just result in the people who choose to do such things finding other ways.

Edit: You may not agree, but having more guns, or arming more people is definetly not a solution, or a good idea in general.
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Unread 4 Oct 2006, 00:45   #56
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Re: Another School Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Precisely, they're not going to be stopped by gun laws. Do you think people can't buy weapons in the UK or Ireland?
I'd speculate that the overwhelming majority of milk truck drivers would find it very difficult to acquire a gun in the UK.

Edit: As an aside, I'd be interested to see how the use of firearms pans out in the USA (where gun ownership is legal, or at least licensed, I admittedly don't know much about the legislation). To come to a practical conclusion this debate we'd need questions like the following answered:

What percentage of shootings are made in self-defence, and what percentage are made for a criminal purpose?

How often is a criminal stopped by the presence of someone wielding a firearm (such as to stop a bank robbery), and how often are firearms used to intimidate a victim (such as during a mugging)?

When a conflict between a criminal and a civilian party, both wielding firearms, occurs, how often does this conflict result in a shooting (such as if a guard were to intervene during a bank robbery)?

When such a situation does result in a shooting, how often is the victim a civilian?


Could anyone offer an informed opinion here?
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Unread 4 Oct 2006, 00:50   #57
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Re: Another School Shooting

A number of years ago, my home town of Stockton, had a school shooting where a nut-job took a high powered rifle to a school about a mile or so from my house and shot and killed seven asian elementry school children who were out on the playground.

He then killed himself.

The big news at the time, in the aftermath, was that Michael Jackson came to town to comfort the children.

True story (sadly).
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Unread 4 Oct 2006, 00:58   #58
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Re: Another School Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephor
I'd speculate that the overwhelming majority of milk truck drivers would find it very difficult to acquire a gun in the UK.
Did you even read what I replied to or was that intentionally out of context?
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Unread 4 Oct 2006, 01:11   #59
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Re: Another School Shooting

It's late and to be honest I probably forgot what the context is/was. I didn't really intend it as a reply to your post as such, but as a more general observation.

Edit: It was a throwaway remark, but I'd stand by it in that I believe that this kind of event would occur far less frequently in a society that exercises gun control such as the UK. That doesn't address the broader issues at all of course.
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Unread 4 Oct 2006, 01:55   #60
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Re: Another School Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
A number of years ago, my home town of Stockton, had a school shooting where a nut-job took a high powered rifle to a school about a mile or so from my house and shot and killed seven asian elementry school children who were out on the playground.

He then killed himself.

The big news at the time, in the aftermath, was that Michael Jackson came to town to comfort the children.

True story (sadly).
Apparently it was five kids (everyone overestimates asians), lol at MJ comforting the kids.
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Unread 4 Oct 2006, 09:04   #61
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Re: Another School Shooting

There's clearly other factors at work which causes the Americans to enjoy shooting themselves other than "they have guns". We are told most homes in Switzerland have automatic weapons, and almost anyone can buy a gun with a licence (which are not difficult to get). Yet, last time I checked, they had a lower murder rate than the UK.

Of course, this does not mean guns lower crime either. I'm pretty sure that if you made guns totally legal in this country there would be more murders simply because it's easier to kill someone with a gun than a knife. Therefore, a good proportions of the stabbings we hear about will turn into shootings (from which more people would die).

In any case, in the UK we have pretty much banned all private use of most guns and yet we still had something 10,000 firearm offences in 2005. This has been steadily growing since '97 afaik, and will probably continue to grow. Considering drugs have been totally illegal for decades and anyone who has money can easily obtain them (with prices continually decreasing, despite steady demand), I find it curious that people think the government will be able to stop the flow of illegal firearms into this country.

Similarly, people have suggested that the US government "confiscate all non-legitimately held firearms". Do you honestly think that would be an easy task to undertake?
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Unread 4 Oct 2006, 10:13   #62
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Re: Another School Shooting

Just reiterating the point to the "he'd have done it with a knife" crowd: it is significantly more difficult to kill and threaten a large number of people with a knife than it is with a gun. So no, I don't think this would have happened had he only had a gun.

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Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Wel, if you believe that the world is objectively one giant chemical reaction, predestined to react in a certain way due to the initial action of the big bang, then yes.
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Unread 4 Oct 2006, 19:05   #63
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Exclamation Re: Another School Shooting

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Originally Posted by furball
Most of these gunmen kill themselves anyway once they run out of ammo/targets/hatred I doubt the threat of being killed by someone else is too worrying for them.
Most school shooters don't run out of ammo, targets or hatred. They are killed by the police or kill themselves when the police are coming into the room (they're often absurdly overarmed--the Pennsylvania shooter reportedly had three guns, two knives and 600 rounds of ammunition). They rarely surrender, and when they do it's because they're cornered and they're convinced they're about to be killed. Current police doctrine in the US is generally to confront active shooters as soon as possible (i.e., if people are being shot don't wait for the SWAT team). In that regard, having armed police or even armed teachers at the school might bring that about sooner.

I'd rather have armed guards than rely solely on armed teachers, but only because guards would tend to be better trained and less distracted. Both would be preferable I guess. Of course, I'd rather live in a world that didn't have murderers or crazy people running around, but I don't see that option on the table.

There are armed police at both the schools my children attend (public schools). Access to the school buildings is restricted and random adults (such as myself) are challenged upon entering the building. The schools hold periodic intruder drills. I think these are sensible precautions.

For what it's worth, I live in a state that provides permits to carry concealed weapons. Any adult citizen who passes a gun safety course and a background check can get a permit to carry a gun. Property owners can choose not to allow visitors and/or employees from carrying a gun on their property. Schools are specifically prohibited from allowing guns on school property (except for policemen) so any intruder can confidently assume that at least all the teachers will be unarmed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by All Systems Go
Cars provide a service. the only role a gun has is to cause phycical damage. If they did something else then you may have an argument.
I think the most important benefit of any weapon is as a deterrent. Most of the armed policemen and armed security guards and even armed civilians will never fire their weapons in anger. Ever. Yet even though their guns are never used they can still have a deterrent value. Saying that the only role of a gun is to cause physical damage is like saying the only role of a burglar alarm is to make noise. Both exist to deter crime before it happens as much as respond to it after the fact. Weapons (and burglar alarms) may also provide a greater sense of security for those whose property and lives they protect, which can also be worth something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephor
What percentage of shootings are made in self-defence, and what percentage are made for a criminal purpose?
These types of questions invariably get bogged down in definitional problems, especially because of suicides. Over half all firearm deaths in the US are suicides. In the US, guns are a popular choice for those who want to kill themselves and suicide is (generally) a crime. So do you count suicide as a criminal purpose? Even counting firearm suicides as "gun-related" deaths is problematic (gun control advocates love to do this but it's not clear to me if and to what extent gun control would reduce suicides, especially as the US suicide rate is about average compared to other developed countries).

Anyway, here's the most recent statistics I could find quickly: In the US for 2003, there were 30,136 deaths from firearms distributed as follows by mode of death: Suicide 16,907; Homicide 11,920; Unintentional 730; Legal Intervention 347; Undetermined 232.
Quote:
How often is a criminal stopped by the presence of someone wielding a firearm (such as to stop a bank robbery), and how often are firearms used to intimidate a victim (such as during a mugging)?
As I mentioned above, a firearm doesn't need to be wielded to be a deterrent. Just being present (or even suspected of being present) may do the job. One study of convicted robbers indicated that "[t]hree of the top six deterrence items have to do with the opposition being armed--armed guards, armed clerks and police."
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 13:30   #64
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Re: Another School Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Im not sure i follow the former, as for the latter...you people must live in some pretty degenerate places. What exactly is going to happen with guns and teacher and students in close proximity?

We have never had a schoolmassacre in Sweden, so I wouldn't say my country is degenerate in the way you are talking about.

My point point was that if the teacher has to go and get the gun (if it is locked up somewere) then the shooter is just going to target the teacher first, hence negating the chance of stopping him.

If the teacher is carrying the gun at all times, it means the student who is the future shooter can snatch it from him/her. If students + guns wasn't a problem, then surely there would be no schoolshootings, right?
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 17:49   #65
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Re: Another School Shooting

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Originally Posted by Ärketrollmannen
If the teacher is carrying the gun at all times, it means the student who is the future shooter can snatch it from him/her. If students + guns wasn't a problem, then surely there would be no schoolshootings, right?

By the same argument the police shouldn't be armed
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 18:02   #66
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Re: Another School Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
By the same argument the police shouldn't be armed
Good point.

In this country they aren't.
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 18:17   #67
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Re: Another School Shooting

First of all I have to agree with Ste here, second:

Police officers are trained in a way I think would be very expensive for a teacher and they do have a different attitude when confronting people.
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 19:00   #68
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Re: Another School Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
No dude im saying that if more people carried guns for self protection there'd be less likelyhood of them dying in such encounters* and assuming the shootings were legitimate the number of deaths that resulted would be besides the point.
That's utter shit.

"Lets give everyone guns so they can defend themselves against people with guns"

On an aside, this is going on in a grander scale with countries wanting nukes to defend themselves against other countries with nukes.

Its ****ing retarded.
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 19:09   #69
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Re: Another School Shooting

I'll agree with Cannon_Fodder, the idea of building a better weapon for "protection" against others, only leads to more weapons that can do more damage, and increases the probability that sometime in the futre this is going to bite us in the ass when one of those countries gets ticked off and presses the button finally.
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 19:25   #70
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Re: Another School Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
Good point.

In this country they aren't.

And in america they are!

Quote:
Police officers are trained in a way I think would be very expensive for a teacher and they do have a different attitude when confronting people.
afaik pilots aren't given any training; just the option to carry firearms. Besides the gun safety thing tacticus mentioned can cover the fairly simple 'don't wear your gun on a chain round your neck' if that isn't enough for you ill settle on smart guns.


Quote:
That's utter shit.

"Lets give everyone guns so they can defend themselves against people with guns"
Why is that any more unreasonable than allowing the use of the nearest implement to hand for self-defence?
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 19:40   #71
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Re: Another School Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
And in america they are!

afaik pilots aren't given any training; just the option to carry firearms. Besides the gun safety thing tacticus mentioned can cover the fairly simple 'don't wear your gun on a chain round your neck' if that isn't enough for you ill settle on smart guns.

Why is that any more unreasonable than allowing the use of the nearest implement to hand for self-defence?
Listen you demented foreigner anybody dying is to be considered a BAD THING. Quite regardless of whom they are or what they happen to be doing at a particular time.

Unfortunately people do die. This is to be referred to as a TRAGEDY.

anything that can be done to reduce the amount of such TRAGEDIES therefore ought to be done.

You do not reduce the amount of people dying by increasing the amount of people killed.

You can not stop murders by killing every murderer or potential murderer.

The only way to prevent tragedies is to reduce the chance of them occuring:

1) Educate children and instill them with a respect for the lives of ALL others
2) Have a system which assess and identifies those in need of help
3) Reduce the ease by which people can be killed to the maximum practical level.

I am QUITE fed up with reading appallingly constructed and disingenuous arguments for allowing people to carry guns. You are not the only idiot here but you are the one that luck and timing has brought to my attention.
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 19:41   #72
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Re: Another School Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Why is that any more unreasonable than allowing the use of the nearest implement to hand for self-defence?
BECAUSE IT IS INCREDIBLY EASY TO KILL LOTS OF PEOPLE VERY QUICKLY FROM DISTANCE WITH A GUN christ you're awful.
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 19:55   #73
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Re: Another School Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
And in america they are!
And a quick google finds this:
Quote:
New York City Police Detectives Robert Parker and Patrick Rafferty were shot and killed in East Flatbush on September 10th, allegedly after a suspect, Marlon Legere, 28, grabbed Parker’s gun and used it to shoot both detectives several times at close range.

It is a scenario that, while not commonplace, happens with enough frequency to alarm law enforcement professionals nationwide. Last year, 10 police officers were shot and killed in the United States after a suspect managed to get control of an officer’s weapon. Nearly one in five officers killed as part of a crime last year were shot with their own (or a partner’s) weapon, according to the National Center for Law Enforcement Technology - the highest number of such deaths in 18 years.
While an article from the UK around the same time says:
Quote:
Statistics show that road accidents are the greatest threat to officers on the job. The national police officers roll of honour recorded 14 deaths in the line of duty last year - 13 officers died in traffic accidents and one died of natural causes
In fact - here is a list of EVERY police officer killed in the line of duty in the UK:
http://www.policememorial.org.uk/Nat...tionalRoll.htm

So far in 2006 that's 9 dying in road traffic accidents and 1 of heart failure.

I would bet a lot on more dying in firearm incidents if they were all armed.

EDIT - that website is quite saddening
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Last edited by Ste; 5 Oct 2006 at 20:01.
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 20:10   #74
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Re: Another School Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Listen you demented foreigner anybody dying is to be considered a BAD THING. Quite regardless of whom they are or what they happen to be doing at a particular time.

I disagree; if someone is trying to kill me and i happen to kill them first id hardly see it as a bad thing. Im not quite sure what to say if you think it would have been bad to kill the terrorists on 9/11.

Quote:
Unfortunately people do die. This is to be referred to as a TRAGEDY.

anything that can be done to reduce the amount of such TRAGEDIES therefore ought to be done.
Just to clarify, are you a pacifist?

Quote:
You do not reduce the amount of people dying by increasing the amount of people killed.

You can not stop murders by killing every murderer or potential murderer.

Emotion aside; why would it matter how many people were being killed as long as there was a legitimate reason for them dying?

Quote:
BECAUSE IT IS INCREDIBLY EASY TO KILL LOTS OF PEOPLE VERY QUICKLY FROM DISTANCE WITH A GUN christ you're awful.
Its incredibly easy to kill lots and lots of people in many ways that we don't ban. Im not denying that more people could die as a result of more guns being available (although as tacticus pointed out a fair amount were suicides); my point is why would it matter if it was legitimate? I don't see the difference in a policeman killing someone and any other citizen doing the same. If the police can't justify why they shot someone they get in trouble; id apply the same rules to everyone.


Ste id be willing to settle on smart guns



btw i thought this forum was libertarian-pro-gun? what happened?
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 20:17   #75
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Re: Another School Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
btw i thought this forum was libertarian-pro-gun? what happened?
Apparently you had some sort of mental relapse.

And when I said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
I am QUITE fed up with reading appallingly constructed and disingenuous arguments for allowing people to carry guns.
What did you imagine that I meant?

Because you appear to have taken my words as an indication that you should carry on.
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 20:18   #76
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Re: Another School Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
btw i thought this forum was libertarian-pro-gun? what happened?
I can think of almost no argument where this forum is entirely in agreemnt (this is a good thing).
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 20:22   #77
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Re: Another School Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Apparently you had some sort of mental relapse.


Quote:
Because you appear to have taken my words as an indication that you should carry on.
Damn my impudence!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I can think of almost no argument where this forum is entirely in agreemnt (this is a good thing).
Fair point.
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 20:35   #78
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Re: Another School Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by milo
Just to clarify, are you a pacifist?
What difference does this make?
Quote:
I don't see the difference in a policeman killing someone and any other citizen doing the same.
You'd expect the policeman not to go on a killing spree.
Quote:
If the police can't justify why they shot someone they get in trouble; id apply the same rules to everyone.
So shoot first ask questions later?
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 20:38   #79
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Re: Another School Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
Listen you demented foreigner anybody dying is to be considered a BAD THING. Quite regardless of whom they are or what they happen to be doing at a particular time.
I agree. But I still don't think shouting "demented foreigner" to people has a place on this forum. Obviously, I am wrong though, because you do that a lot.

That aside, I totally agree with you on the rest of your post.
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 20:49   #80
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Re: Another School Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by qebab
I agree. But I still don't think shouting "demented foreigner" to people has a place on this forum.
Especially since milo is British last time I checked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon_Fodder
What difference does this make?
Well, it probably affects how you view death or violence. We've had this discussion before though, it strongly reminds me of this post here by Yahwe & Radical Edward.
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 21:14   #81
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Re: Another School Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Well, it probably affects how you view death or violence. We've had this discussion before though, it strongly reminds me of this post here by Yahwe & Radical Edward.
Only those who do die pretend that death is not terrible.

Perhaps it is a defence mechanism? I know not. Nor do I concern myself with psycology.

All I know is that death is terrible.

Those that die should not be so willing to kill.
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 21:24   #82
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Re: Another School Shooting

Death is awesome when it happens to people who deserve it.

Don't be so afraid of your own mortality steven
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 21:28   #83
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Re: Another School Shooting

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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 22:28   #84
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Re: Another School Shooting

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Originally Posted by Yahwe
Because you appear to have taken my words as an indication that you should carry on.
Its a forum, its open for argument, even though Milo's one is shit, he should be able to argue his point on a forum if he wants.
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Unread 5 Oct 2006, 22:50   #85
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Re: Another School Shooting

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Originally Posted by milo
btw i thought this forum was libertarian-pro-gun? what happened?
You're about the only one who has been pro-gun in this thread, most people have been discussing about ways to rid guns from the problem and you've been arguing with them.

As an aside, I'd like to point out:
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Originally Posted by Yahwe
Nor do I concern myself with psycology.
Nor how to spell psychology.
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 19:23   #86
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Re: Another School Shooting

People who are considering a murder-suicide should really try suicide-murder instead. The order of things makes such a difference?

Did somebody on this thread actually make the point that, if berift of guns, the crazies in question would just use knives?

There have been three school shootings in the last 3 weeks in the US. They don't even make the news anymore unless there are a lot of bodies. Where are the shootings in the nations with strict gun laws? They exist to be sure, one in Canada a month ago, one in Germany last year, but in terms of frequency, FAR less often.

But hey, if you can give me ANOTHER reason, then by all means, I am all ears.
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 19:56   #87
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Re: Another School Shooting

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Originally Posted by Vermillion
People who are considering a murder-suicide should really try suicide-murder instead. The order of things makes such a difference?
"Mass-murderers" usually try to kill as many people as they can before beeing taken out. They only commit suicide because of an external reason forcing them and they cant proceed with their killing anymore. Otherwise we wouldnt even talk about it because it would just be another suicide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
There have been three school shootings in the last 3 weeks in the US. They don't even make the news anymore unless there are a lot of bodies. Where are the shootings in the nations with strict gun laws? They exist to be sure, one in Canada a month ago, one in Germany last year, but in terms of frequency, FAR less often.
This specific person would not have had a problem getting the necessary guns legally in germany. (Short term) Availability of guns certainly plays a role in some incidents, but not in this one.
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 20:00   #88
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Re: Another School Shooting

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vermillion
There have been three school shootings in the last 3 weeks in the US. They don't even make the news anymore unless there are a lot of bodies. Where are the shootings in the nations with strict gun laws? They exist to be sure, one in Canada a month ago, one in Germany last year, but in terms of frequency, FAR less often.
http://www.ncpa.org/pub/st/st176/s176c.html

Quote:
But hey, if you can give me ANOTHER reason, then by all means, I am all ears.
Socio-economic disparities, lack of equal opportunity, previous crime rates, current moral and ethical outlooks in society and lots of other things like the relative decline in afternoon tea over the past seventy odd years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The NCPA
20 percent of U.S. homicides occur in four cities with just 6 percent of the population - New York, Chicago, Detroit and Washington, D.C. - and each has a virtual prohibition on private handguns.
Even ignoring the virtual prohibition on private handguns and whatever other partisan facts are offered up there's obviously a reason why so many homicides occur in these areas that isn't related to gun control. I quite firmly believe that if you can solve these problems the issue of gun control can become nigh on irrelevant. I'm not some nutcase who thinks my M-16 (if I owned one) would help defend me against the state if they decide to "get" me (hay newsflash but I think the army has tanks these days) incidentally.


Edit: I took this from a pro-gun control site.

Quote:
Keeping a gun in the home carries a murder risk 2.7 times greater than not keeping one, according to a study by Arthur Kellermann. The National Rifle Association has fiercely attacked this study, but it remains valid despite its criticisms. The study found that people are 21 times more likely to be killed by someone they know than a stranger breaking into the house. Half of the murders were over arguments or romantic triangles. The study also found that the increased murder rate in gun-owning households was entirely due to an increase in gun homicides only, not any other murder method. It further found that gun-owning households saw an increased murder risk by family or intimate acquaintances, not by strangers or non-intimate acquaintances. The most straightforward explanation is that the presence of a gun increases the possibility that a normal family fight or drinking binge will become deadly. No other explanation fits the above facts.
This is all quite true but it's ignoring the bigger question. Why does violence occur over domestic arguments or romantic triangles? The idiocy involved in describing as a "normal family fight" an event which ends with someone's head being blown off is mind-boggling. I'm sure plenty of families have had numerous disagreements over the years without having to resort to gun violence.

Actually reading further on it gets a bit funny.

Quote:
For example, for the first question, murder was 2.4 times more likely in a household where any member drank alcohol.
Oh shit. Considering that I drink enough for five people and there's only four in my family we're well overdue



Anyways quite clearly the fact people are sexually uptight and frustrated is the major contributing factor in the murder rate. Y'know, cos Freud said so.
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Unread 6 Oct 2006, 20:06   #89
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Re: Another School Shooting

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
(hay newsflash but I think the army has tanks these days).
Not to mention those GPS guided ALCMs can be quite accurate.
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