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Unread 6 May 2009, 10:50   #1
Wishmaster
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OOGOOA defence / support planets

First i like to state that I hate the rule, hated it when it was enforced and would hate to see it enforced again.
The question that arises for me though, is how the pa team / mhs in r15 suddenly saw fit to add a new rule when eXi used out of tag planets to defend them, and escort / attack with people in main tag.
Now that asc have been doing the same the past 2 rounds ( I did the same in omen to a smaller extent also granted, cause as I said I dont like tag limidts ) the same people that played against eXi and cried for the rule to be enforced are "abusing" it just like eXi did. And no one in the pateam seem to care.

Whats the difference from r15, to r31 pa team? Why Make a rule midround once, and not do it again if another ally use it even more?
Is it because asc got more "friends" in high places than the hated eXi did? Or is there another reason?
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Unread 6 May 2009, 10:57   #2
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

Eventho I find it strange people are still joining Asc atm, you shouldnt really come forward with this now that it benefits you if people enforce this rule.

Just go with proof to the MH's.
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Unread 6 May 2009, 11:04   #3
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

proof? no one are doing something not within the rules.
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Unread 6 May 2009, 11:17   #4
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

Wishy, you've been playing this game for so long and yet you still haven't figured out that you can get away with anything if the mh's like you / your alliance and get away with nothing if they hate it?

Thought you were smarter than that
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Unread 6 May 2009, 11:36   #5
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
Whats the difference from r15, to r31 pa team? Why Make a rule midround once, and not do it again if another ally use it even more?
Because midround rule or game changes are utterly shit. People complained last round about the addition of quests with rewards, which arguably had a smaller impact than the midround introduction of the support planet rule would have.

I can't tell from your post, are you asking a hypothetical question or are you genuinely advocating the reintroduction of the support planet rule?
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Unread 6 May 2009, 11:42   #6
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Because midround rule or game changes are utterly shit. People complained last round about the addition of quests with rewards, which arguably had a smaller impact than the midround introduction of the support planet rule would have.

I can't tell from your post, are you asking a hypothetical question or are you genuinely advocating the reintroduction of the support planet rule?
Midround changes are shit, but have been done against certain parts of the community before.
I m merely asking the question, I dont like midround changes or the rule itself.
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Unread 6 May 2009, 11:43   #7
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

Maybe the reason it hasn't been added again is that they removed it because it was shit?
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Unread 6 May 2009, 11:49   #8
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
Whats the difference from r15, to r31 pa team? Why Make a rule midround once, and not do it again if another ally use it even more?
I think it may be because the r15 planets eXi used in r15 seemed very conspicuous and looked like multis (they had 300 roids and nothing but a truckload of vipers, and always seemed to be around in the middle of the night iirc) but there was no way to prove that they were, so this rule was enforced.

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
Is it because asc got more "friends" in high places than the hated eXi did? Or is there another reason?
Given Ascendancy's track record with the MH I find this quite funny.
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Unread 6 May 2009, 11:53   #9
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

Its one of those rules which ends up just being ridiculous to police.

pretty much everyone has seen those planets though.

I mean hell i ran into a ingal spider support planet the other day. that was pretty awesome.
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Unread 6 May 2009, 12:34   #10
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
Midround changes are shit, but have been done against certain parts of the community before.
You value consistency over quality?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
I m merely asking the question, I dont like midround changes or the rule itself.
Fair enough.
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Unread 6 May 2009, 12:44   #11
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

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Originally Posted by Linkie View Post
Maybe the reason it hasn't been added again is that they removed it because it was shit?
it was removed then re-added again before. Atm it is not being enforced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kila
I think it may be because the r15 planets eXi used in r15 seemed very conspicuous and looked like multis (they had 300 roids and nothing but a truckload of vipers, and always seemed to be around in the middle of the night iirc) but there was no way to prove that they were, so this rule was enforced.
So you are claiming they were cheating then? The asc planets seem to be active aswell, and only got certain types of ships. That being said, I dont think there is much cheating going on in asc.
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Unread 6 May 2009, 12:44   #12
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
You value consistency over quality?

I d like quality consistency
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I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
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Unread 6 May 2009, 13:07   #13
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

Wait! Go back and read my posts at the time and check your facts please.
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Unread 6 May 2009, 13:26   #14
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

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Originally Posted by lokken View Post
Wait! Go back and read my posts at the time and check your facts please.
I never said u were against it at the time, but I cba to look up a post about one person in particular. Several now in asc were pro the rule when it came in r15. Not all ofc, but thats not what I m claiming either, since quite a few from asc used to be eXi.

edit: also, its more about what the pateam does, why they do it. Not what members in alliances atm or at the time feel / felt about the case.
in r15 they enforced a shitty rule to try to ruin the round for eXi. Now they aint doing it when the situation about support planets are about the similar.
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Unread 6 May 2009, 13:31   #15
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

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So you are claiming they were cheating then? The asc planets seem to be active aswell, and only got certain types of ships. That being said, I dont think there is much cheating going on in asc.
I'm not accusing anyone of cheating at all. I seem to remember 1up players going on about how these planets were multis and stuff and thought that maybe the MH decided that they were multis but didn't have proof or something. I think I read something to that effect the last time this discussion was brought up. I could just be imagining things though.
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Unread 6 May 2009, 14:09   #16
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

To be honest wish I doubt the number of def fleets going from out of tag to ascendancy planets is that high. I'll even go through it for you right now.

There are 118 planets added, so obviously 28 of these out of tag. 1 of these is dunkelgraf who, to my knowledge doesn't and hasn't sent any def fleets to ascendancy. Another two applied to our tag I just checked and they have 0 def fleets launched in total so I think we're safe there. One is dreamz who has quit. Four are currently in the process of being reset. Six are scanners or cov-oppers without ships. One is alexis who has no internet. One is chimpie who lost his internet as well. One is cujo, one def fleet launched in total this round, not sure if that was out of gal or ingal. One is jay who only decided he wanted to play today. One is shia, 1 def fleet total launched all round, no idea who to. One is hanzi, pretty sure no out of gal def fleets there judging by the times of his only 3 sent defs. One is lokken himself, 2 def fleets launched in total, although one of those was while he was intag. One is marty who's in another tag and to my knowledge hasn't sent any def to ascendancy. I really couldn't be arsed going through and finding the few I glazed over but you get the general picture. There's no real attempt to use "support planets" in def, or attack for that matter. The extras that are there are just there because they're part of the community, they don't really do anything.

If we're actually using support planets more than exi did in r15 then holy **** that was actually the greatest over-reaction in PA ever.

Edit: Checked another 4 planets out of tag and judging by their launch history, ie no 1/2/3/4/5am launch times, and the fact I haven't seen them offer def they've not being deffing ascendancy either.
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Unread 6 May 2009, 14:14   #17
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

Only mid round intervention I would think proper in the current round is a small change in the salvage system since after seing it in action, I think its utter shite at the current level.
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Unread 6 May 2009, 14:16   #18
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

Mid-round changes are cack. Unless something was actually viciously broken I wouldn't support changing it. I wouldn't even support salvage getting changed midround and god knows I don't exactly like the current system for that.
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Unread 6 May 2009, 14:28   #19
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
To be honest wish I doubt the number of def fleets going from out of tag to ascendancy planets is that high. I'll even go through it for you right now.

There are 118 planets added, so obviously 28 of these out of tag. 1 of these is dunkelgraf who, to my knowledge doesn't and hasn't sent any def fleets to ascendancy. Another two applied to our tag I just checked and they have 0 def fleets launched in total so I think we're safe there. One is dreamz who has quit. Four are currently in the process of being reset. Six are scanners or cov-oppers without ships. One is alexis who has no internet. One is chimpie who lost his internet as well. One is cujo, one def fleet launched in total this round, not sure if that was out of gal or ingal. One is jay who only decided he wanted to play today. One is shia, 1 def fleet total launched all round, no idea who to. One is hanzi, pretty sure no out of gal def fleets there judging by the times of his only 3 sent defs. One is lokken himself, 2 def fleets launched in total, although one of those was while he was intag. One is marty who's in another tag and to my knowledge hasn't seen any def to ascendancy. I really couldn't be arsed going through and finding the few I glazed over but you get the general picture. There's no real attempt to use "support planets" in def, or attack for that matter. The extras that are there are just there because they're part of the community, they don't really do anything.

If we're actually using support planets more than exi did in r15 then holy **** that was actually the greatest over-reaction in PA ever.
without being arsed / able to check the facts presented, I ll accept them, as I trust your word. A point stated when they made these rules though, was that even scanners were sposed to be in tag, same with covopers. It would still be a support planet according to the rules they enforced in r15.
Even with all of those sending a couple of fleets every now and then, it makes a difference, just as the support planets did in eXi. I remember I was accused for being one of the people who made the rule be enforced. I had FWWD setup, and had some 4-5 people who played with only def fleets, and came on to def me and mystical. ( planeti@ people who were active anyway, but didnt like PA ) I was closed before the rule was enforced though! ( dont use kiddieporn gal banners in pa! ) was a couple of others who had the same. so about 15 people or so out of tag tops.
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Unread 6 May 2009, 14:32   #20
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

Cov-oppers weren't added to the rule until r18 as far as I know. And thankfully any idea that scanners were included in that was abolished around about r22/23. I mean three of our scanners this round are mz, anne and pele and I don't even wanna know who they scan for. Scanners specifically weren't included in this rule in r15 either, I was reading back through a thread on the support planet this morning and jer was specifically pointing this out back then, not sure when they were added to it to be honest.
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Unread 6 May 2009, 14:34   #21
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

I've seen mz in a few shady places JBG!
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Unread 6 May 2009, 14:35   #22
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Cov-oppers weren't added to the rule until r18 as far as I know. And thankfully any idea that scanners were included in that was abolished around about r22/23. I mean three of our scanners this round are mz, anne and pele and I don't even wanna know who they scan for. Scanners specifically weren't included in this rule in r15 either, I was reading back through a thread on the support planet this morning and jer was specifically pointing this out back then, not sure when they were added to it to be honest.
might be correct. Scanners were closed in eXi though. Scanners with smal vipers fleets which they ofc used to defend eXi members with. shocker!
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Unread 6 May 2009, 18:20   #23
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

How would you like to see the rule re-implemented or amended, Wish?
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Unread 6 May 2009, 19:05   #24
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

I dont want it re-implemented, as unlike quite a few now in asc, I m not a hypocrit and whine for shit rules to be added to **** over an ally midround. -exi r15-
I m just pointing it out, and also pointing out how pa team only take actions if certain groups push for it. In round 15 it was 1up crew.
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Unread 6 May 2009, 19:23   #25
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
First i like to state that I hate the rule, hated it when it was enforced and would hate to see it enforced again.
The question that arises for me though, is how the pa team / mhs in r15 suddenly saw fit to add a new rule when eXi used out of tag planets to defend them, and escort / attack with people in main tag.
Now that asc have been doing the same the past 2 rounds ( I did the same in omen to a smaller extent also granted, cause as I said I dont like tag limidts ) the same people that played against eXi and cried for the rule to be enforced are "abusing" it just like eXi did. And no one in the pateam seem to care.

Whats the difference from r15, to r31 pa team? Why Make a rule midround once, and not do it again if another ally use it even more?
Is it because asc got more "friends" in high places than the hated eXi did? Or is there another reason?

Well to bassicaly put this simply, one of the main differences between then and now was i was the MH Manager who invented the rule and saw fit to bring it in mid round (and to this day although i hated the rule, it was needed) And of course now im not a MH or a member of the PA Team so thats an obvious conclusion i guess to your question.


But to answer as to why this rule was invented was simple. As i have stated on many discussions regarding this there were around 30-40 planets outside of the exi tag at the time, which only had mass buildings of one ship type to achieve certain eta bonuses and did nothing else but defend said tag (exi) And attack the same targets as said tag (oh..... exi?) Amusingly these were said to be scanner planets... but of course when we mapped these planets out and could see their fleet movements/history (Yes we did have the power to view whats in ur fleets.... how advanaced eh?) Then it was blatently obvious these planets were not playing the game other then to cause an unfair advantage to the said alliance.. (... forget it cant be arsed to name it again you get the point) And that is why this stupid rule was invented by me.. and ironicaly when me and squishy started to police it within the first 3 days exi started to drop score. Was this a coincidence? Guess we will never know for sure.


Anyway... thats why i brought it in.

Oh on another note the support planet never effected scanners from when i invented it til when i stepped down as MH manager, so im curious as to where myself or squishy closed a valid scanner? (i also once came out in the open and deffended achi and the trans crew the one round when they were effected as we never in my day closed scanners for this) And lets face it anyone with half a brain can tell when a planet has 10k vipers and not even 1 amp or scanner tech done and claims to be a scanner isnt one. Shock? I think not.
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Unread 6 May 2009, 19:33   #26
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

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Originally Posted by Assassin View Post
Well to bassicaly put this simply, one of the main differences between then and now was i was the MH Manager who invented the rule and saw fit to bring it in mid round (and to this day although i hated the rule, it was needed) And of course now im not a MH or a member of the PA Team so thats an obvious conclusion i guess to your question.


But to answer as to why this rule was invented was simple. As i have stated on many discussions regarding this there were around 30-40 planets outside of the exi tag at the time, which only had mass buildings of one ship type to achieve certain eta bonuses and did nothing else but defend said tag (exi) And attack the same targets as said tag (oh..... exi?) Amusingly these were said to be scanner planets... but of course when we mapped these planets out and could see their fleet movements/history (Yes we did have the power to view whats in ur fleets.... how advanaced eh?) Then it was blatently obvious these planets were not playing the game other then to cause an unfair advantage to the said alliance.. (... forget it cant be arsed to name it again you get the point) And that is why this stupid rule was invented by me.. and ironicaly when me and squishy started to police it within the first 3 days exi started to drop score. Was this a coincidence? Guess we will never know for sure.


Anyway... thats why i brought it in.
Signature:
Alliances: 1up.Ascendancy... point made?

says it all doesnt it? I ll give u that though, admitting adding the worst rule ever in pa history
Ofc score dropped when they lost out of alliance def / escort fleets. Captain Obvious, where are you?! This is exactly the same asc are doing now though.
To the same extent or not can be discussed, but I know quite a few of the closed planets had deffed like 2 times and were closed. a cath planet I resigned up after I got closed first time, got closed after 3 deffleets.
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Unread 6 May 2009, 19:36   #27
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
Signature:
Alliances: 1up.Ascendancy... point made?

says it all doesnt it? I ll give u that though, admitting adding the worst rule ever in pa history
Ofc score dropped when they lost out of alliance def / escort fleets. Captain Obvious, where are you?! This is exactly the same asc are doing now though.
To the same extent or not can be discussed, but I know quite a few of the closed planets had deffed like 2 times and were closed. a cath planet I resigned up after I got closed first time, got closed after 3 deffleets.
Just becuase asc might have many followers (planets who they probably cant fit all into tag) Doesnt mean there doing exactly the same as exi? These guys are also playing the game... not building one ship type in massess? (unless of course you have evidence of this with scans then i am happy to take that statement back)
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Unread 6 May 2009, 19:42   #28
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

Wishmaster, I have to say I still don't understand the point of this thread. This seems to be what you're saying:

1. PA team introduced the support planet rule midround in round 15.
2. The support planet rule was/is stupid
3. Introducing new game elements midround is stupid
4. Why aren't PA team doing it again this round!?

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
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Unread 6 May 2009, 19:57   #29
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

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Originally Posted by Wishmaster View Post
I dont want it re-implemented, as unlike quite a few now in asc, I m not a hypocrit and whine for shit rules to be added to **** over an ally midround. -exi r15-
I m just pointing it out, and also pointing out how pa team only take actions if certain groups push for it. In round 15 it was 1up crew.
Fair enough. How would you want it changed for next round then? I'm not trying to troll or bait I'm just curious.
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Unread 6 May 2009, 20:26   #30
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

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Captain Obvious, where are you?!
Hey, thanks for next rnd ruler name o//

But midround changes are bad. If you plan any changes in rules/quests/etc announce it preround and don't screw around midround.
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Unread 6 May 2009, 22:48   #31
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
Wishmaster, I have to say I still don't understand the point of this thread. This seems to be what you're saying:

1. PA team introduced the support planet rule midround in round 15.
2. The support planet rule was/is stupid
3. Introducing new game elements midround is stupid
4. Why aren't PA team doing it again this round!?

That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.
Its more about how certain groups are allowed to do something and get away with it with no complaints, while others are not. Back then people screamed in outrage on the forums about eXi abusing the system. Now, because the forums is asc, its alright.

I think its alright though! Think of this as an example of how people enterpret the rules, and how biased they are to their own alliance. -> Alliance discussion. At one time people thought this was against the rules ( they lost while others used it ) now when they are on the winning side and getting the benefits, its alright!

I think its alright anyway though! not sposed to be easy to understand my threads mz
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Unread 6 May 2009, 22:52   #32
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

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Fair enough. How would you want it changed for next round then? I'm not trying to troll or bait I'm just curious.
change is never good. I m a conservative bastard, give me old pa with good ol ingal farming!
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I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
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Unread 6 May 2009, 22:52   #33
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

Because the issue has now been resolved and it's been discovered that the rule does more harm than good? And that, actually OOGOOA isn't that bad at all where people are playing legitimate accounts and not account sharing and the like?
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Unread 7 May 2009, 04:54   #34
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Assassin View Post
Just becuase asc might have many followers (planets who they probably cant fit all into tag) Doesnt mean there doing exactly the same as exi? These guys are also playing the game... not building one ship type in massess? (unless of course you have evidence of this with scans then i am happy to take that statement back)
and whats the difference?
there were several of the def planets in exi that just did it to help out and enjoy irc etc, just like asc have this round exept they are more inactive.
the rule sucked though, but if omen had the same amount there would have been more drama^^
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Unread 7 May 2009, 09:22   #35
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

As much as the support planet rule was utter turd, i still think there should be something to prevent people from playing as a part of an alliance, if they are not in tag.

Whats the point of tag limits at all, with the situation as it is atm?
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Unread 7 May 2009, 09:39   #36
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

Remove the tag limits then, since it is a stupid limitation to prevent people from playing with their friends
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Unread 7 May 2009, 10:43   #37
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

I would say im shocked and surprised... but im really really not given the level of contempt for rules shown by them.
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Unread 7 May 2009, 11:53   #38
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

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I would say im shocked and surprised... but im really really not given the level of contempt for rules shown by them.
Yeah. Our contempt for those rules which don't exist is really a bit over the top...
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Unread 7 May 2009, 11:56   #39
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

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and whats the difference?
there were several of the def planets in exi that just did it to help out and enjoy irc etc, just like asc have this round exept they are more inactive.
the rule sucked though, but if omen had the same amount there would have been more drama^^

Then again as i said have you got evidence of these planets with massess of one ship type? I was just curious on how many of these asc support planets are the same as exi#s scanario. And of course there is a difference, there are other tags as well as asc this round and last round who have more then the limit. There is a difference between signing up and giving the game a go, then signing up only to do one thing which was give an alliance an unfair advantage.
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Unread 7 May 2009, 13:40   #40
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

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Then again as i said have you got evidence of these planets with massess of one ship type? I was just curious on how many of these asc support planets are the same as exi#s scanario. And of course there is a difference, there are other tags as well as asc this round and last round who have more then the limit. There is a difference between signing up and giving the game a go, then signing up only to do one thing which was give an alliance an unfair advantage.
what the **** is the difference? More players than the tag limidt will give an "unfair" advantage even if they build 1 or 2 types of ships you retard.
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Unread 7 May 2009, 14:10   #41
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

I like how everyone has just glazed over lokken's post which is really the only actual answer to this whole thread. The whole idea of a support planet rule was discredited. That's why it was removed from the rules.

Everything else is just so much shouting in the lunatic asylum.
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Unread 7 May 2009, 14:27   #42
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

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I like how everyone has just glazed over lokken's post which is really the only actual answer to this whole thread. The whole idea of a support planet rule was discredited. That's why it was removed from the rules.

Everything else is just so much shouting in the lunatic asylum.
it isnt the answer to the thread at all. Why was it suddenly discredited? Why was it credited? would it be credited again if another group had used it?
thats the real question.
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Unread 7 May 2009, 14:36   #43
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

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Remove the tag limits then, since it is a stupid limitation to prevent people from playing with their friends
imo remove ingame alliance score on uni screen, and remove limitations and remove eta advantage for defending in alliance. Thats not what this thread is about though
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I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
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Unread 7 May 2009, 14:45   #44
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

It wasn't suddenly. It was gradually. Over an extended period of time it became obvious the support planets rule was confusing, irritating, poorly defined, unnecessarily restrictive and just generally not a good thing. No one moment decided this, which is why nobody has pointed one out. If someone signed up like 800 planets to support their tag I imagine something might change. Certainly without the existence of a systematic campaign to utilise support planets I can't see anything being done. As I pointed out all those planets combined add up to something like 5 or 6 def fleets sent to ascendancy. This is about as game changing as a big planet that meant to launch on ascendancy launching on some random co-ords by accident instead.

I'm going to provide a visual aid to what you're doing here

It's a molehill someone turned into a mountain!

I'm going to provide a visual aid to why you're doing it as well

I don't really think this one needs an explanation...
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Unread 7 May 2009, 16:07   #45
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/2986/jbg.jpg

gave me 5 mins away from studies making this wonderful thing ! thanks
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Unread 7 May 2009, 16:12   #46
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

Except for the fact I haven't exaggerated anything at all in this thread that's a pretty accurate representation of me and my giant apple. They didn't allow black people in Ireland though when i was in school
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Unread 7 May 2009, 16:13   #47
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

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If someone signed up like 800 planets to support their tag I imagine something might change. [/url]
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I would give me right testicle to be in a gal with you wishmaster!!! wonder if thatd be enough to bribe spinner with hmmmm
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Unread 7 May 2009, 16:18   #48
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

Wow, considering I clarified what I actually meant in the very next line I think you just smashed some sort of record for pedantry.
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Unread 7 May 2009, 16:21   #49
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

thanks. a record is a record man.

Also, I dont get how u can call me bitter, or making this up to be a big thing. I asked a question. I dont think there should be any enforced midround change. And I have never said I wanted that.
Its not like AD is so busy, that a discussion about this was totally out of order. Seing how both eXi r15 and Asc r31 are using the same thing for their benefit, just that the results of their use is very different.
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Unread 7 May 2009, 16:24   #50
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Re: OOGOOA defence / support planets

He wasn't calling you bitter, he was calling you an ass.
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