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Unread 20 Jan 2004, 04:30   #1
Baron Morte
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So i was reading this magazine the other day.

And it was about sexual arousement and such, more like what do pretty people have that make them look nice. Well there was this appendix in the end of the issue on gayism. It said that people should not look into genes as for a source for the sodomites and lesbians, because it would be the same argument as saying crime is genetic, as reliable as phrenology.


Now this must be as stupid as it gets. FIrst of all to compare scientific research from the past to disprove scientific effort today is a blatant falacy. Second, crime, as a highly complicated matter, is indeed hard to back up with genetics, but sexual attraction, on the other hand, is something that we are born with and generally cant scape from. Of course it varies from culture to culture, but it is all inside a clear parameter that indicates the idea of healthy partner. And thirdly, ive heard countless stories of people who are born with both sexes and then the doctor decides to chop off a willy, but infact such an individual was meant to be a boy, and then when puberty hits, such an individual is miserable and generally ****ed up because she wanted to be a he.


If gays are not determinated by the genes, what, from where I am standing is laughable, then it is determined by what? Experiences?

If this were true than people cloud learn to love the c0ck and later in life want to settle a family and start checking out girls.

Or just to go rampant on hormones, and all those females bodybuilders would be pussy eaters.
Am i rite?
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Unread 20 Jan 2004, 09:28   #2
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

ur rite lol asl?
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Unread 20 Jan 2004, 09:52   #3
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
If gays are not determinated by the genes, what, from where I am standing is laughable, then it is determined by what?
No-one really knows, but it could be developmental factors. So it could be biological but non genetic.

I don't really believe the nurture argument on homosexuality, but it's quite feasible. You obviously form some sort of an idea of attractiveness based on experiences through your life. It's quite possible this process could be chanelled in such a form so you start to find same-sex partners attractive.

There's also the evo-psych argument about tribe selection, etc,etc - but the gene argument seems the weakest of the three.

None seem particular unfeasible tho. Yes, we do all seem to look for a "healthy" partner and the overall evolutionary argument seems to be a banal truism. But since we all look for different things in our partners (to radically different degrees) that doesn't seem particularly helpful.
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Unread 20 Jan 2004, 10:42   #4
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

"it varies from culture to culture" is a bit of an understatement, dont you think?

"The majority of people have displayed whatever sexual behavoir was expected of them, in almost every single society ever formed" would be a more accurate way of putting it.
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Unread 20 Jan 2004, 10:53   #5
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
So it could be biological but non genetic.
That makes no sense really.
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Unread 20 Jan 2004, 12:23   #6
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

basically gayness, be it male or female, is biological. scientists have proven it. to a degree.

now its been years since i have taken biology, so bear with me.

theres a gland in the brain that controls testosterone. (i think its called the pirturity gland) and this is the same size for hetorosexual men and women. unfortunately in the homosexual community it has a defomaty. in men the gland is to small hence making them more feminine. and in women, it is too large, hence making them to masculine. although this does not make the person homosexual, but their thougght in men/women changes that making them more attracted to the same sex.
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Unread 20 Jan 2004, 12:31   #7
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

your engluish is getting much better boy
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Unread 20 Jan 2004, 12:42   #8
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
That makes no sense really.
If my leg get's broken, it would make no sense to say that I had a non-biological problem (since quite clearly my problem is biological) but it would be equally muddle headed to presume I had some sort of genetic problem.
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Unread 20 Jan 2004, 12:43   #9
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

So ur sayin bein gay is like breakin ur leg? Or another part of ur body, I'm wih Radical Edward on this, what exactly do you mean, without the metaphors!
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Unread 20 Jan 2004, 12:53   #10
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
So ur sayin bein gay is like breakin ur leg? Or another part of ur body, I'm wih Radical Edward on this, what exactly do you mean, without the metaphors!
OK. Biology isn't synonomous with genetics.

An individuals biology (e.g. their weight, height, brain size, etc.) is obviously influenced by their genetics but is not wholy attributable to it. When I'm conceived my genetics are "decided". However, the behaviour (and health, etc) of my mother will effect my eventual biology. If my mother smokes a 100 cigarettes a day during my gestation my biology will be affected without changing my genetics.

It's possible that homosexuality is caused/influenced by developmental factors inside the womb. So, brain development, or hormonal factors, whatever.

Even if we knew an individuals genetic code 100%, we still wouldn't be be able to predict all manner of things about them.
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Unread 20 Jan 2004, 13:20   #11
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

I'm understandin all of that, but what factors could cause 'gayness'?
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Unread 20 Jan 2004, 13:24   #12
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

i think being gay is basically the same thing as someone's personality being particularly attuned to being a mean and nasty bastard or liking sport.

its just who you are.


although, a gay friend of mine owned a pink sparkly comb since he was 4, i think this was an important factor in how he grew up
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Unread 20 Jan 2004, 14:10   #13
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Clearly its an interaction between biological predisposition and environmental factors. There is no one cause of 'gayness' as some of you put it.

Accept it. Leave others to their misery/salvation.
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Unread 20 Jan 2004, 14:25   #14
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

It would mean that they could be 'cured'.
It would be a fantastic coup for the religious right.
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Unread 21 Jan 2004, 04:52   #15
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
OK. Biology isn't synonomous with genetics.

An individuals biology (e.g. their weight, height, brain size, etc.) is obviously influenced by their genetics but is not wholy attributable to it. When I'm conceived my genetics are "decided". However, the behaviour (and health, etc) of my mother will effect my eventual biology. If my mother smokes a 100 cigarettes a day during my gestation my biology will be affected without changing my genetics.

It's possible that homosexuality is caused/influenced by developmental factors inside the womb. So, brain development, or hormonal factors, whatever.

Even if we knew an individuals genetic code 100%, we still wouldn't be be able to predict all manner of things about them.
What you are trying to say is to expose the difference between phenotype and genotype.
Right?
SO youre saying gayness is a phenotype feature.
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Unread 21 Jan 2004, 05:13   #16
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IncubusGod
It would mean that they could be 'cured'.
It would be a fantastic coup for the religious right.
Thats exactly what i am saying. This kind of shit cant be taught. Even if someone is indirectly leaned to gayness, it is something completely reversable.

Personally I find the theory that gay people are siblings who will help his family to advance by not have offspring of their own and therefore helping its relatives a lot more.


And also, gayness happens in a wide variety of animals. Considering that the childhood of animals are incredibly similar amongst them, and the childhood of humans is very varied, it is almost impossible to conceive that there is actually a way to raise gay people.


If i take a adult, chop his balls off and supply him with female hormones, would this bloke start liking men?(even secretly)

what do you people think?

I think that there is an structure in the brain responsible for that, and such structure responds to a certain key hormones. If you fail to provide the correct hormone, it just wont work.
So, I guess that such bloke would just lose libido.
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Unread 21 Jan 2004, 08:52   #17
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
SO youre saying gayness is a phenotype feature.
Yes, basically.
Quote:
If i take a adult, chop his balls off and supply him with female hormones, would this bloke start liking men?(even secretly)
Probably not, no. But perhaps if you did it to a baby it might. Adults brains are already fairly developed, and therefore it's possible the neural connections, etc have already been made.
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Unread 21 Jan 2004, 21:02   #18
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

So, in short, no one around here is confident about this and/or has a strong point of view?
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Unread 21 Jan 2004, 21:20   #19
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

There's no justification for being a fag; you'll never find one!
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Unread 21 Jan 2004, 21:32   #20
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
So, in short, no one around here is confident about this and/or has a strong point of view?
I'm pretty confident the answer isn't wholly genetic (it doesn't make much sense to me). I also doubt it's some sort of choice an individual makes.

But there is very little evidence available on the matter, so I don't feel strong assertsions are warranted.
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Unread 21 Jan 2004, 21:41   #21
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

On the same note, why do I dislike fruit when a lot of other people don't?
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Unread 21 Jan 2004, 22:21   #22
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

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On the same note, why do I dislike fruit when a lot of other people don't?
its muslim's fault!
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Unread 22 Jan 2004, 04:22   #23
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
And it was about sexual arousement and such, more like what do pretty people have that make them look nice. Well there was this appendix in the end of the issue on gayism. It said that people should not look into genes as for a source for the sodomites and lesbians, because it would be the same argument as saying crime is genetic, as reliable as phrenology.


Now this must be as stupid as it gets. FIrst of all to compare scientific research from the past to disprove scientific effort today is a blatant falacy. Second, crime, as a highly complicated matter, is indeed hard to back up with genetics, but sexual attraction, on the other hand, is something that we are born with and generally cant scape from. Of course it varies from culture to culture, but it is all inside a clear parameter that indicates the idea of healthy partner. And thirdly, ive heard countless stories of people who are born with both sexes and then the doctor decides to chop off a willy, but infact such an individual was meant to be a boy, and then when puberty hits, such an individual is miserable and generally ****ed up because she wanted to be a he.


If gays are not determinated by the genes, what, from where I am standing is laughable, then it is determined by what? Experiences?

If this were true than people cloud learn to love the c0ck and later in life want to settle a family and start checking out girls.

Or just to go rampant on hormones, and all those females bodybuilders would be pussy eaters.
Am i rite?
Cite some scientific evidence to support the claim that people arent 'naturally' 'bisexual' plz. Historical evidence seems to me to suggest that narrow classifications such as "heterosexual" or "homosexual" are arbitrary social conventions, but if you believe youve found supported claims to the contrary, feel free to share them.
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Unread 22 Jan 2004, 04:56   #24
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
ive heard countless stories of people who are born with both sexes and then the doctor decides to chop off a willy
what strange circles you must move in to hear countless stories like this
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Unread 22 Jan 2004, 05:00   #25
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

I must have said this about a zillion times (actual number) but just maybe it's a combination of many factors one of which may possibly be genes?
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Unread 22 Jan 2004, 05:05   #26
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Cite some scientific evidence to support the claim that people arent 'naturally' 'bisexual' plz. Historical evidence seems to me to suggest that narrow classifications such as "heterosexual" or "homosexual" are arbitrary social conventions, but if you believe youve found supported claims to the contrary, feel free to share them.
If GD is a scientific experiment, I believe you could discover that almost any combination of anything turns into 'fag' when it starts typing on a keyboard.
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Unread 22 Jan 2004, 06:12   #27
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I'm pretty confident the answer isn't wholly genetic (it doesn't make much sense to me). I also doubt it's some sort of choice an individual makes.

But there is very little evidence available on the matter, so I don't feel strong assertsions are warranted.
I've stated how genetics only can explain the gayness sitation. Care to explain why is it falty?

Anyways, we are will only get to the botton of such issue by raising 100 babies inside a box (4000 cubic meters) with absolutely no contact to any other human beings and control the information that goes inside such a box so that it does not taint its "natural choice" and when this baby turn into a 18 year old person, take it out of the box and see if he/she will be gay or not.

Nodrog, if most humans were to be "Bi" so should be other animals, what isnt true. Some researchs estimate that 10% of superior animals are gay. Its the same % found amongst humans.
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Unread 22 Jan 2004, 08:40   #28
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
I've stated how genetics only can explain the gayness sitation. Care to explain why is it falty?
I fail to see how "homosexual tendency genes" would have propagated for this long. Yes, I've heard the explanation (assisting other members of the tribe) but since this contradicts almost every other evo-psych argument, I'm not convineced.
Quote:
Anyways, we are will only get to the botton of such issue by raising 100 babies inside a box (4000 cubic meters)
Nonsense. That wouldn't prove anything at all, even if it was possible. It's quite possible that people could be gay _from birth_ but it still wouldn't be genetic, as I've said. The phenotype of an organism is influenced by the environment from conception, not from birth.

Plus, if you raised someone from birth without a single social interaction I'm pretty sure they'd be insane, but insanity can hardly be said to be the natural state of affairs. I think this is one of the conceptional errors which evo-psychologists fall into. A box is not the "normal" environment for a human being - in fact there is no normal environment. Environment is fundamentally part of each individual, not some troublesome influence we need to account for in experiments.

I know analogies are evil and that, but most evo-psych's seem to follow the idea the genes are blueprints. As such, one building (organism) built from the blueprints would be the same as any other (in general). However, it'd be more appropriate to liken genes to a recipe. As such, a recipe will not tell us how something tastes or even how it will look. The type of oven it is cooked in, the tools used, the way handled will all influence the outcome. We cannot say "In normal circumstances" because there is no ideal type oven which treats things "neutrally".
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Unread 22 Jan 2004, 09:39   #29
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
OK. Biology isn't synonomous with genetics.

An individuals biology (e.g. their weight, height, brain size, etc.) is obviously influenced by their genetics but is not wholy attributable to it. When I'm conceived my genetics are "decided". However, the behaviour (and health, etc) of my mother will effect my eventual biology. If my mother smokes a 100 cigarettes a day during my gestation my biology will be affected without changing my genetics.

It's possible that homosexuality is caused/influenced by developmental factors inside the womb. So, brain development, or hormonal factors, whatever.

Even if we knew an individuals genetic code 100%, we still wouldn't be be able to predict all manner of things about them.
dude, if it is developmental, that makes it genetic, because it is just expression of the genes in whatever environment. otherwise nothing is genetic.
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Unread 22 Jan 2004, 10:15   #30
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical Edward
dude, if it is developmental, that makes it genetic, because it is just expression of the genes in whatever environment. otherwise nothing is genetic.
Ok, but then everything is genetic which get's us into an equally meaningless situation.

It may be an expression of their genes, but the variance between individuals might not be attributable to genetic (but environmental) variance. I thought that's what we're discussing. Otherwise everything (being gay, straight, bi, an axe murderer) is just an expression of genes and we get into the sort of bland statements which Muslim is making.
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Unread 22 Jan 2004, 16:16   #31
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

I think Baron Morte has tricked you all into doing his homework for him
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Unread 22 Jan 2004, 16:42   #32
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
Nodrog, if most humans were to be "Bi" so should be other animals,
source plz
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Unread 22 Jan 2004, 16:46   #33
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Quote:
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source plz
dood were just animals except that we have feet, man. wake up.
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 21:17   #34
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
I fail to see how "homosexual tendency genes" would have propagated for this long. Yes, I've heard the explanation (assisting other members of the tribe) but since this contradicts almost every other evo-psych argument, I'm not convineced.Nonsense. That wouldn't prove anything at all, even if it was possible. It's quite possible that people could be gay _from birth_ but it still wouldn't be genetic, as I've said. The phenotype of an organism is influenced by the environment from conception, not from birth.
Its the same thing with all the genetic diseases. If this was true, today we wouldnt have mongolism nor fibrosis or cancer etc.



Quote:
Plus, if you raised someone from birth without a single social interaction I'm pretty sure they'd be insane, but insanity can hardly be said to be the natural state of affairs. I think this is one of the conceptional errors which evo-psychologists fall into. A box is not the "normal" environment for a human being - in fact there is no normal environment. Environment is fundamentally part of each individual, not some troublesome influence we need to account for in experiments.
I dont think so. People miss things that they had contact with. With a proper set of loudspeakers and some exercise trhough mics, it could learn how to speak withing 10 years or so.



Quote:
I know analogies are evil and that, but most evo-psych's seem to follow the idea the genes are blueprints. As such, one building (organism) built from the blueprints would be the same as any other (in general). However, it'd be more appropriate to liken genes to a recipe. As such, a recipe will not tell us how something tastes or even how it will look. The type of oven it is cooked in, the tools used, the way handled will all influence the outcome. We cannot say "In normal circumstances" because there is no ideal type oven which treats things "neutrally".
The same as any other?
The blueprints are amazingly different.
And i am not trying to achieve "normal conditions" because there arent any. I am trying to come up with a situation that there is no interference.
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 21:34   #35
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Some study said that homosexualism might be linked to the chemical composition and balance in the person's brains. I guess that goes back to genes since they decide what chemicals, hormones etc the body produces. Opinions are welcome.
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 22:14   #36
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hecate
Some study said that homosexualism might be linked to the chemical composition and balance in the person's brains. I guess that goes back to genes since they decide what chemicals, hormones etc the body produces. Opinions are welcome.
Not entirely. The body's construction is more random than genetic.
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Unread 23 Jan 2004, 22:39   #37
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

I see.
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Unread 24 Jan 2004, 04:06   #38
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

People who worry about what causes homosexuality are usually afraid they might be homosexual themselves.

The scientific approach to homophobia one might say.
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Unread 24 Jan 2004, 04:37   #39
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Not entirely. The body's construction is more random than genetic.
"more random than genetic"?

what the hell is this suposed to mean?
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Unread 24 Jan 2004, 13:15   #40
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
Its the same thing with all the genetic diseases. If this was true, today we wouldnt have mongolism nor fibrosis or cancer etc.
Cancer generally isn't a genetic disease (not in the sense you're talking).

I'm not sure about "mongolism" (horribly outdated term btw, heh). That's more of a flaw in development, isn't it?

Cystic fibrosis is a genetic disease, but even if you're a carrier (and about 1 in 25 Europeans are supposed to be) there's only a small chance of it appearing in your children. I don't see how that's equivalent of homosexuality, which "affects" anything upto 1 in 10 peope or something (not that homosexuality is a meaningful term by itself, blah, blah, blah).
Quote:
I dont think so. People miss things that they had contact with. With a proper set of loudspeakers and some exercise trhough mics, it could learn how to speak withing 10 years or so.
Rubbish. There are real-life cases of people reared without human contact ("wolf-children" as they are termed) and funnily enough they've all got what could be called "problems". Particularly with language, but emotionally these people are generally fairly traumatised.

I'm not sure if loudspeakers would be enough to teach someone to speak either. At one point, deaf/mute parents were advised to sit their (hearing) kids in front of the TV to teach them to speak in lieu of parental interaction. It failed miserably. You need interaction to reinforce concepts, questioning, etc, etc.

To summarise, even if you could do some weird experiment like you're suggesting you will have told us very little about the interplay of genetics and environment.
Quote:
The same as any other? The blueprints are amazingly different.
I'm talking about in cases of the same blueprints. To simplify : If you build two buildings from the SAME blueprints, there's a good chance (barring error) they will be the same end result. If you make two meals with the same recipe, there's no guarantee they will turn out the same. (As I say, analogies are evil anyway).

And your use of the word "interference" is what I've got a problem with. What the hell does interference mean from a scientific perspective? Is the mothers womb interfering with the embryo? Is she interfering with a child if/when she breast feeders an infant? Are the people who help a child learn to speak "interfering" with it? You're positing some sort of Platonic ideal type upbringing, and then presuming any deviation from that is "interference".
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Unread 24 Jan 2004, 17:35   #41
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
Its the same thing with all the genetic diseases. If this was true, today we wouldnt have mongolism nor fibrosis or cancer etc.
It's hardly the same when diseases don't generally cause you to not want to have sex with the other sex.
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Unread 24 Jan 2004, 17:37   #42
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Re: So i was reading this magazine the other day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
"more random than genetic"?

what the hell is this suposed to mean?
Exactly what it says.

A clone of you wouldn't be exactly like you. Identical twins are superficially the same, but the closer you examine them the more different they would appear.
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