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16 Jun 2005, 12:21
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#1
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nomen est omen
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 1,095
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Don`t do science.
I did a science degree many years ago, and now find myself working as a lab technician at a certain UK university. My pay rise recently, (after tax) was just £11 something. My rent went up recently by £22, and have had notice today that my home contents insurance has increased by £3 something. I`m actually getting poorer. Don`t do science, there`s no money in it :/
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Me=Hans_Blix
Views expressed are those of the author and not of any company or organisation I am associated with. Electronic communication can be forged and the integrity of this message is not guaranteed.
Last edited by pyirt; 16 Jun 2005 at 12:27.
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16 Jun 2005, 12:29
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#2
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Insanely Insignificant
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 1,056
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Re: Don`t do science.
There's money in it if you become more than a lab technician surely?
__________________
Very nearly there.
All is nothing, without you.
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16 Jun 2005, 12:33
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#3
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nomen est omen
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 1,095
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Re: Don`t do science.
Not really, unless your`re a Professor or Nobel prize winner. Even some lecturers don`t earn much more than me.
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Me=Hans_Blix
Views expressed are those of the author and not of any company or organisation I am associated with. Electronic communication can be forged and the integrity of this message is not guaranteed.
Last edited by pyirt; 16 Jun 2005 at 12:38.
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16 Jun 2005, 12:35
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#4
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Mr. Blobby
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Belgium
Posts: 8,271
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Re: Don`t do science.
Or build your own zombie out of a variety of body parts and gardening tools that goes around beating up people for money.
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16 Jun 2005, 12:44
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#5
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
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Re: Don`t do science.
Only postmodern faggots and environmentalists hate science.
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16 Jun 2005, 13:51
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#6
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nomen est omen
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 1,095
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Re: Don`t do science.
The level of discussion here never ceases to amaze me.
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Me=Hans_Blix
Views expressed are those of the author and not of any company or organisation I am associated with. Electronic communication can be forged and the integrity of this message is not guaranteed.
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16 Jun 2005, 13:58
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#7
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Made of Twigs
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 5,459
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pyirt
I did a science degree many years ago.
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Maybe it's because you're too old now and your methods/knowledge are outdated?
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If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor - James
It's hard to be humble when you're as great as I am - Muhammad Ali
So **** y'all, all of y'all; if y'all don't like me, blow me! - Dr. Dre
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16 Jun 2005, 14:00
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#8
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nomen est omen
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 1,095
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Re: Don`t do science.
Yeah. Happens to everyone. Even people here.
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Me=Hans_Blix
Views expressed are those of the author and not of any company or organisation I am associated with. Electronic communication can be forged and the integrity of this message is not guaranteed.
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16 Jun 2005, 14:01
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#9
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Banned
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,635
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Re: Don`t do science.
I always thought Science, Biology and Physics mainly, would be interesting. But I don't think they'd be interesting for a whole degree.
Incidentally, I just got a first in one of my modules! Although, I'll probably end up in a call centre. But, rock on anyway.
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16 Jun 2005, 14:01
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#10
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pyirt
The level of discussion here never ceases to amaze me.
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Well I'm not sure what you want us to say. Most people know that academics get paid nothing - if you want money then try to go into finance or something. I doubt many people seriously considering careers in science are labouring under the illusion of becoming rich, unless they are also planning on some entrepreneurial activity.
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16 Jun 2005, 14:03
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#11
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overtired
Join Date: Aug 2003
Posts: 5,900
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stew
Maybe it's because you're too old now and your methods/knowledge are outdated?
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you know he's got a drink problem and he's unhappy at work, so you thought you'd just cheer him up a bit?
edit : AND he lost his favourite jacket
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16 Jun 2005, 14:21
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#12
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cynic
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bishop Auckland Co. Durham
Posts: 8,809
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Re: Don`t do science.
depends what kind of science you do and how far you take it... i have a friend who is doing his phd atm who is going to be on silly money when he finally qualifies
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lazy
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16 Jun 2005, 14:24
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#13
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Vermin Supreme
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,280
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Only postmodern faggots and environmentalists hate science.
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like most people i classify creationists as the 'default' anti-science crowd.
after your post, i'm unsure whether you would classify the christian right as environmentalists or homosexuals.
ps: what does postmodern mean anyway?
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16 Jun 2005, 14:36
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#14
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Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 940
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Re: Don`t do science.
My brother did a science degree and graduated last year.
After graduation he had a choice of two major pharma companies to work for.
Earning quite a lot.
A degree tends to be just that, a degree. I wouldn't say doing science would put you at a disadvantage in life.
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16 Jun 2005, 14:37
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#15
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Insomniac
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 3,583
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Only postmodern faggots and environmentalists hate science.
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you forgot religious nutcases
edit : bleh beaten to it.
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16 Jun 2005, 14:44
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#16
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4 5 6
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 168
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Re: Don`t do science.
I'm not suprised you're on shit pay when you use `.
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16 Jun 2005, 14:50
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#17
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I doubt many people seriously considering careers in science are labouring under the illusion of becoming rich, unless they are also planning on some entrepreneurial activity.
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Being rich is not the same as not being poor. Most people don't necessarily expect to become rich, but it'd be nice for money not to be a struggle, or at least being in a position where financial advancement is structured and clear.
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16 Jun 2005, 15:23
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#18
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nomen est omen
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 1,095
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Re: Don`t do science.
I work in the UK`s most top rated Biochemistry department (together with Cambridge); we beat Oxford in the last research/teaching review. Yet, post-docs salaries start at £19K-£20K a year. I`m not much below that.
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Me=Hans_Blix
Views expressed are those of the author and not of any company or organisation I am associated with. Electronic communication can be forged and the integrity of this message is not guaranteed.
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16 Jun 2005, 15:36
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#19
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Re: Don`t do science.
queball: Now what would you like? They've got Philosophy with Economics, Statistics, oh, Pure Mathematics, you like that.
Nod: Want that one.
queball: Ah, I don't think you'll like that one. That one's a BSc in German with Surfing.
Nod: Want that one.
queball: But you said that the Germans were a quintessentially statist people, whose inherent love of order above the principles of natural liberty had been their downfall on so many occassions in the past.
Nod: Yeah I know.
queball: Now, are you sure?
Nod: Yeah.
queball: Are you sure you want to apply for this one? Because there'll be a right kerfuffle if you decide to change course.
Nod: I-want-that-one.
queball: You're sure?
Nod: (Nods head vigourously.) Yeah.
queball: Oh-kay
(Cut to Nod sitting in the lecture theatre halfway through the academic year.)
Nod: (To queball.) I think it's a pile of shite.
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16 Jun 2005, 15:37
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#20
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Registered User
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 386
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Re: Don`t do science.
You work as a lab technician and expect mega bucks
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16 Jun 2005, 16:19
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#21
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lolly roffle
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 5,514
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pyirt
I work in the UK`s most top rated Biochemistry department (together with Cambridge); we beat Oxford in the last research/teaching review. Yet, post-docs salaries start at £19K-£20K a year. I`m not much below that.
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The simple answer is dont work in academia. If you go to a pharma/biotech company as a graduate you can expect +20k starting salary. Science is a bit harder than other areas, you can go get a great job with just an undergrad degree in most areas but if you want to progress to high ranks in most scientific places you need some kind of postgrad qualification, ideally a PhD.
Which Uni are you at? Nottingham got a 5* rating for its Biochem department if i remember correctly.
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eXcessum
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16 Jun 2005, 16:20
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#22
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Evil inside
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pyirt
I work in the UK`s most top rated Biochemistry department (together with Cambridge); we beat Oxford in the last research/teaching review. Yet, post-docs salaries start at £19K-£20K a year. I`m not much below that.
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Post doc-doc salaries at 19-20k ???? WTF, even uneducated people can make a better starting wage here in Norway!?!
How to hell do they manage to attract people with that sort of pay?
__________________
<Germania>but you called Fury a bully, and that is terribly unfair
<Hicks>Occassionally individuals do things without Executive consent
<Dreadnought>You cant whois on Eclipse server without a registered nic, which mr ****stirrer doesnt have.
<Almeida> well i like to grow fat myself too, and when i have enough ships then i can engage in big battles
<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
<Jakiri> (Windows)XP was fine on release
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16 Jun 2005, 16:26
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#23
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
How to hell do they manage to attract people with that sort of pay?
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Well, you've little choice. Most salaries are heavily weighted towards experience.
And besides, most people who have done a PhD in something have a passion for the subject. They could go and earn much more money as a Gas Fitter or a Supermarket manager but realistically they're not going to want to.
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16 Jun 2005, 16:31
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#24
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Post doc-doc salaries at 19-20k ???? WTF, even uneducated people can make a better starting wage here in Norway!?!
How to hell do they manage to attract people with that sort of pay?
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Arent you meant to be a communist of some sort?
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16 Jun 2005, 16:32
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#25
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:alpha:
Join Date: May 2002
Location: London, UK
Posts: 7,871
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Re: Don`t do science.
My dad did Chemistry at university.
He's now completing a project to get the first Home-Male-Infertility test in the shops, with this other guy. I'm quite proud of him actually, as he's an "inventor"
He's earning quite a bit for that...
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"There is no I in team, but there are two in anal fisting"
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16 Jun 2005, 16:38
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#26
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Vermin Supreme
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,280
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Re: Don`t do science.
there's a limited supply of research dollars available in this world (and generally the people in charge of doling them out will always lean toward the Ubergizmo 6510 over more researchers) and a seemingly unlimited supply of feshly minted PhDs. It's pretty basic economics.
And even worse going for professorships. Many research universities won't take anyone who won't pay themselves (i.e., anyone who doesn't already have enough research funding to cover their own salary).
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16 Jun 2005, 16:46
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#27
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Arent you meant to be a communist of some sort?
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Communists want everyone to subsist on gruel.
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16 Jun 2005, 16:52
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#28
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Communists want everyone to subsist on gruel.
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You'd think he'd have realised that rejoicing in the radient essence of your species-being is preferable to mindlessly accepting a few monetary tokens designed to recompensate for wage slavery.
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16 Jun 2005, 16:58
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#29
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
You'd think he'd have realised that rejoicing in the radient essence of your species-being is preferable to mindlessly accepting a few monetary tokens designed to recompensate for wage slavery.
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You'd think he'd realise that Karl Marx totally destroyed the idea that human society was motivated by econom...oh shit.
And besides, that stuff doesn't happen under Capitalism Nod, stay with the program. You can't rejoice in species being when you can't pay the rent.
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16 Jun 2005, 17:00
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#30
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
And besides, that stuff doesn't happen under Capitalism Nod.
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Marx would almost certainly have believed that, even under capitalism, a career in science is preferable to earning large sums of money, despite getting paid a pittance.
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16 Jun 2005, 17:09
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#31
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Vermin Supreme
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,280
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Marx would almost certainly have believed that, even under capitalism, a career in science is preferable to earning large sums of money, despite getting paid a pittance.
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my guess is he would have argued that one of the deep flaws in capitalism is how it pushes people away from scientific pursuits towards more profitable ones.
but then i never thought much of marx. engels, yes, marx, not so much.
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16 Jun 2005, 18:36
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#32
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Evil inside
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Marx would almost certainly have believed that, even under capitalism, a career in science is preferable to earning large sums of money, despite getting paid a pittance.
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Marx didnt believe. He reaseached untill he knew. Thats what we call science.
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<Germania>but you called Fury a bully, and that is terribly unfair
<Hicks>Occassionally individuals do things without Executive consent
<Dreadnought>You cant whois on Eclipse server without a registered nic, which mr ****stirrer doesnt have.
<Almeida> well i like to grow fat myself too, and when i have enough ships then i can engage in big battles
<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
<Jakiri> (Windows)XP was fine on release
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16 Jun 2005, 22:25
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#33
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nomen est omen
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Bristol, UK
Posts: 1,095
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Re: Don`t do science.
Surely if you know something, you don`t need to research it? Maybe research is driven by human ideas, beliefs. Is that science?
__________________
Me=Hans_Blix
Views expressed are those of the author and not of any company or organisation I am associated with. Electronic communication can be forged and the integrity of this message is not guaranteed.
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16 Jun 2005, 22:59
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#34
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The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Marx didnt believe. He reaseached untill he knew. Thats what we call science.
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Marx was a pretty shitty scientist then.
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16 Jun 2005, 23:31
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#35
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Next goal wins!
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: London
Posts: 5,406
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Re: Don`t do science.
marx was a scientist?
actually, perhaps i shouldnt post that, i seem to remember having an argument with marx about whether sociology was a science or not at the meet :/
never mind...
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bastard bastard bastard bastard
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16 Jun 2005, 23:34
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#36
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Twisted
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Down with the sickness
Posts: 2,484
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Re: Don`t do science.
An argument with Marx you say? :\
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Me
In my sleep I grind my teeth.
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17 Jun 2005, 00:03
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#37
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sarina_Joy
An argument with Marx you say? :\
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i think/hope he meant Mark
__________________
Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
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17 Jun 2005, 00:05
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#38
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The Twilight of the Gods
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 23,481
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deepflow
actually, perhaps i shouldnt post that, i seem to remember having an argument with marx about whether sociology was a science or not at the meet :/
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Of course it isn't. It can strive to become one, but at the moment it's at the stamp collecting stage.
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17 Jun 2005, 00:07
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#39
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Next goal wins!
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: London
Posts: 5,406
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Of course it isn't. It can strive to become one, but at the moment it's at the stamp collecting stage.
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well i pretty much said that it was a science in it's infancy, which is almost the same thing.
so meh.
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bastard bastard bastard bastard
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17 Jun 2005, 02:51
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#40
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Caveat Lector
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 3,038
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Only postmodern faggots and environmentalists hate science.
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I note a tone of hostility in your comment.
Anyhow, use science for profit, not research for it's own sake, if you want to make money.
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17 Jun 2005, 13:43
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#41
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Friendly geek of GD :-/
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: On my metal roid
Posts: 923
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Re: Don`t do science.
I'm not doing science for the money...
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[ »] Entropy increases! :-/
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17 Jun 2005, 18:35
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#42
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Of course it isn't. It can strive to become one, but at the moment it's at the stamp collecting stage.
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The science/not-science classification is stupid, but claiming that sociology isnt a science is generally just an underhand way of saying it should be "more like physics".
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17 Jun 2005, 18:56
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#43
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Don`t do science.
i thought it was an under hand way of saying 'its not worthy of academic study' :/
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hi
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17 Jun 2005, 19:05
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#44
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Vermin Supreme
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 3,280
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
The science/not-science classification is stupid, but claiming that sociology isnt a science is generally just an underhand way of saying it should be "more like physics".
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i think of something as a science if you can put pretty error bars in what you publish.
it seems clear that psychology and even social psychology are solidly in the realm of science, but sociology? seems closer to history than chemistry.
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17 Jun 2005, 19:27
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#45
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by acropolis
i think of something as a science if you can put pretty error bars in what you publish.
it seems clear that psychology and even social psychology are solidly in the realm of science, but sociology? seems closer to history than chemistry.
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Its a matter of degree, not either/or. Some disciplines are more 'scientific' than others, but attempting to draw a fence around a particular set and declaring them as 'real' sciences is going to give pretty arbitrary results - theres no sharp line seperating one lot from the other. Sociology is less 'scientific' than chemistry, but more 'scientific' than lit crit. Trying to force the social sciences into the same methodological mould as the natural sciences is probably a bad idea though.
The whole debate is largely a creation of the English language - it wouldnt occur in (eg) German since there you'd just refer to them all equally as wissenschafts (roughly 'an organised body of knowledge')
edit: Although I think Germans might have a seperate term for natural sciences, I'm not sure.
Last edited by Nodrog; 17 Jun 2005 at 19:37.
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17 Jun 2005, 19:53
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#46
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Its a matter of degree, not either/or. Some disciplines are more 'scientific' than others, but attempting to draw a fence around a particular set and declaring them as 'real' sciences is going to give pretty arbitrary results -
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i can see a value in building a fence around scientists.
__________________
hi
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17 Jun 2005, 19:55
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#47
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Love's Sweet Exile
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Living on a Stair (Now Sword-less)
Posts: 2,371
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Although I think Germans might have a seperate term for natural sciences, I'm not sure.
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'Science' as you study it at school is 'Naturwissenschaft'
__________________
--SYMM--
Ba Ba Ti Ki Di Do
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17 Jun 2005, 19:59
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#48
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Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2000
Posts: 8,476
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Re: Don`t do science.
Ah, that makes sense. According to google, that seems pretty much equivalent to 'natural science' in English.
Apparently Geisteswissenschaft translates roughly as "human sciences" but I dont think they have any terms that lets one phrase the general "science vs not-science" distinction people make in English unless you explicitly specify criteria. The split in German is based on the objects being studied (physical world vs human world), not the methodology used in the field (and "Geisteswissenschaft" doesnt have the negative connotations associated with the English 'unscientific'/'not a science')
Last edited by Nodrog; 17 Jun 2005 at 20:06.
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17 Jun 2005, 20:32
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#49
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share the <3
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Location: Location:
Posts: 2,709
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Re: Don`t do science.
Engineering is science for money. Although our general reputation is below that of nerds and engineer isn't even a recognised term in britain.
__________________
Sophie is hotter than you
though ive gone off her now; the way Susanna Reid squirms around on sml is, however, awesome
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17 Jun 2005, 20:35
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#50
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
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Re: Don`t do science.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nusselt
engineer isn't even a recognised term in britain.
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my dad's been in NDT for 30 years and would probably disagree with this assertion.
__________________
Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
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