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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 01:43   #51
MAsta_MArk
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Re: The Environment

well i suppose that turning off lights in a million homes would reduce the amount needed and therefore the amount produced, but its something that everyone has to do and is pointless if they dont
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 01:45   #52
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Re: The Environment

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAsta_MArk
power stations have no way of storing the energy. Its pumped straight into the national grid. They tend to up energy production during peak times and decrease it at other (eg night) so they produce slightly more than is needed at all times.
i do know of an example where they do though.

"NaS battery technology has been demonstrated at over 30 sites in Japan totaling more than 20 MW with stored energy suitable for 8 hours daily peak shaving. The largest NaS installation is a 6MW, 8h unit for Tokyo Electric Power company."
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 01:48   #53
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Re: The Environment

meh go japanese.

Anyway GCSE science tells me all this so god knows what they taught you all back in the day
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 01:53   #54
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Re: The Environment

This is a slight divert but apparently I have met the Uks Green Party politician of the year. He stood infront of the car I was navigating on a road rally, shouted and swore at us then tried to cause criminal damage as he finally let us "f**k off" as he was shouting at us to do. Really a nice guy and a great politician. He can also get dressed, get 10 phone calls from people nowhere near the rally complaining about it and go outside within 1min 20 secs. Truely amazing.

Anyway. Back to the thread. So can they store or not? I seem to remember a thing about dams between 2 lakes been used to create energy used what was termed "left over" power from the national grid at night to pump the water back up. So was this really "left over" or was it intentionally left over?
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 01:54   #55
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Re: The Environment

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Originally Posted by MAsta_MArk
meh go japanese.

Anyway GCSE science tells me all this so god knows what they taught you all back in the day
My school was really bad. TV teaches everything, if a little wrong it seems.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 02:09   #56
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Re: The Environment

Well id say that storing the energy is not a mainstream thing, and the dams i think leave some left over, otherwise they may end up having low water on the other side, or maybe they make more when that happens. What we need is someone who works at a dam...
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 02:35   #57
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Re: The Environment

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Originally Posted by Nodrog
Theres probably some truth behind certain enviornmental positions, but the movement as a whole has been so absurdly hijacked by nutcases (mainly radical treepeople who hate humans and are upset about technology causing the extinction of some species of beetles , and the bogstandard anti-capitalists who are eager to grab at any possible stick to hit the West with), thats its far easier to just ignore it altogether than to waste time sorting out the truth from all the propaganda. Which is why I do.
Verily, I do declare this to be an intelligent way forward in no way resembling the approach most likely to be taken by a mildly retarded raccoon.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 02:38   #58
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Re: The Environment

The problem with the environmental debate (i'm not sure if it should even be a debate) is that there's a lot of posturing, namecalling and alarmism but not a lot enough effort to seriously and clearly solve what is obviously a potentially serious problem.

I'm not sure if it's a case of cut emissions and hope for the best, but sadly I suspect it is. Even then, just cos we can't necessarily fix it doesn't mean we shouldn't give it a go considering what's at stake.

I think you can store large amounts of energy (but not necessarily that efficiently), by pumping water up and then using the energy of it flowing downward to put electricity back in the system when you need it.

One of my more shit posts but there you go.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 03:44   #59
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Re: The Environment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rc mayhem
Anyway. Back to the thread. So can they store or not? I seem to remember a thing about dams between 2 lakes been used to create energy used what was termed "left over" power from the national grid at night to pump the water back up. So was this really "left over" or was it intentionally left over?
This is done, and in answer to your final question: both. Many power stations (nuclear ones, for example) can only regulate their output within a comparatively small range - in the case of the nuclear power stations, for example, above a certain point of retardation the runaway fission reaction isn't. It isn't self-sustaining - so in that sense, it's "left over". In the latter sense, it's intentionally left over because storing the excess energy in a hydroelectric electricity source will drastically reduce the load required during a day. If there was a regular, frequent, high drain on the grid overnight, then it's quite likely that the output of the grid would be upped in order to keep the supply of hydroelectricity consistent compared to day-time need.

One thing people who haven't investigated the topic may want to consider is "If it isn't stored anywhere, where does it go?" Purely as an exercise for the class, you understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
I'm not sure if it's a case of cut emissions and hope for the best, but sadly I suspect it is.
That depends what you refer to with "it's a case of". Kyoto certainly is, but the Kyoto agreement is undeniably flawed in the way it proposes to reduce climate change. Climate change has a rather large lack of concrete knowledge behind it, although in a Pascal's Wager variety of pragmatism I'd say that reducing "pollution" of various kinds is the better choice, even if we just consider the possible global climate response, and not other more local results.

That having been said, however, I would not expect someone with a firmly held belief in free market economics to be required to make a similar concession, or even support its premises; it would be somewhat hypocritical of me to do that, considering I'm an atheist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MAsta_MArk
well i suppose that turning off lights in a million homes would reduce the amount needed and therefore the amount produced, but its something that everyone has to do and is pointless if they dont
This is a poor argument, unless you intend to favour inaction in all cases - if those million homes do turn their lights off at night, your one home won't make any significant increase in that situation either. Like many of society's systems, cooperation is required.

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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 03:49   #60
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Re: The Environment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rc mayhem
Based on that am I incorrect in saying that turning off a few lights would reduce polution?
It depends if it was part of a long-term trend, or just an insolated incident which you were never likely to repeat.

A lot of electricity which is generated is lost anyway through inefficiences in transmission (as Koen has already said, this is why some people are getting wet about local generation). Minor fluctuations (e.g. one light going off for ten minutes) would obviously not affect the overall amount of CO2 being produced in any serious manner. But no-one is suggesting that. What people are saying is that if you used lesspower overall in an ongoing fashion (e.g. by regularly unplugging appliances, turning off all lights, switching to low-energy lights, using more efficient heating systems where appropriate, etc) then obviously over time the energy producers would see a downward trend in demand and adjust their production accordingly.

A lot of these things could presumably be handled through better tech though. It seems fairly shit that 30 years or more after decent computer networking came into being that it's still very rare for domestic lights to be intelligently or remotely controlled (er, except the switch I mean). And as for standby features on TVs, etc - if we're seriously saying that it's beyond our current abilities to create a standby system which minimises energy wastage (perhaps via a charged battery which drains after a few hours) then can we just give up now and fire nuclear weapons at our major population centres please?
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 03:55   #61
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Re: The Environment

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Climate change has a rather large lack of concrete knowledge behind it, although in a Pascal's Wager variety of pragmatism I'd say that reducing "pollution" of various kinds is the better choice, even if we just consider the possible global climate response, and not other more local results.
Even if all the global warming/climate change hypotheses prove to be completely wrong, there's still the issue of what we're going to do about energy in the coming century. It might be prudent to try and reduce waste - even if just until we have a certain feasible replacement for the hydrocarbons actually in place.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 04:03   #62
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Re: The Environment

WRT RC's P&T's Bullshit! references, wiki has a nice section on just that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Even if all the global warming/climate change hypotheses prove to be completely wrong, there's still the issue of what we're going to do about energy in the coming century. It might be prudent to try and reduce waste - even if just until we have a certain feasible replacement for the hydrocarbons actually in place.
The free market may well be able to find its feet on its own, in this case; when hydrocarbons reach a certain level of cost, there will exist an actual economic incentive to find alternatives, although this argument hinges on ones perceived power of the petrochemical lobbies.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 05:45   #63
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Exclamation Re: The Environment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Taxes might be the only practical way we can represent certain externalities. Again, I wouldn't phrase that as some kind of punishment for driving your car, but merely representing the true cost of transportation.
Externalities can be represented only to the extent that they're known. What's the 'cost' of the pollution generated by my car? How much additional taxes should I pay to represent that? I'm sure I don't know and I'm sure no one else knows either. I suspect some bureaucrat could pull a number out of some orifice, but any relationship between that and the "true cost" is just wishful thinking.

A better approach, imho, are some sort of emission standards where we admit we don't really know what the costs are but we try to reduce them over time anyway (based on what's technically feasible and not prohibitively expensive).
Quote:
Of course, we need to be careful that we don't engage in irrational behaviour - we could be back in the same mess we are with certain subsidies. But it's a mistake that market prices don't already take into account a range of subjective factors (e.g. a products brand) so there's nothing objectively true or real about current prices. If that makes sense.
Subjective doesn't necessarily equate to irrational. The color choice of my car for example is subjective, but that doesn't make it irrational. It's just a personal preference.

That said, markets aren't always rational but at least they have a mechanism in place to reward rationality--profits. People don't particularly want their cars to harm the environment. If you can build a car that pollutes less than your competitors' cars then people will flock to your door to buy them (all else being equal, of course). Some people might even pay a premium for such a car (hybrid cars are something of a hot commodity in the US these days, although I'd prefer one of these).
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 09:20   #64
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Re: The Environment

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Verily, I do declare this to be an intelligent way forward in no way resembling the approach most likely to be taken by a mildly retarded raccoon.
I dunno, I think the raccoon would be pretty smart. Intellectual positions need to be self-policing to some degree - every ideology ends up attracting some nutjobs, and if the intelligent people supporting it want it to be taken seriously then they should do their best to distance themselves from the loons. If they refuse to do this then you end up with a position which tends to get associated with its fringe elements regardless of whether there are actually some grains of important truth buried deep among all the nonsense. Enviornmentalism is a fairly blatent example of a case where this has happened, but you could also take academic feminism or anarchism to see similar things. The amount of ideologiacally driven bullshit just isnt worth wading through for most people, especially when the subject itself isnt very interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
although in a Pascal's Wager variety of pragmatism I'd say that reducing "pollution" of various kinds is the better choice, even if we just consider the possible global climate response, and not other more local results.
How does this work then? Definite quality of life reductions as well as significantly expanded government beauracracy now, in order to reduce the possibility of something bad happening in the future years after we're all dead? Pascal's wager is a bad argument for a reason.

From a purely pragmatic point of view we'd probably be better off just nuking India and doing our best to sabotage the growth of China. Theyre the 2 countries which are going to increase world pollution most over the next 100 years..

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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 09:25   #65
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Re: The Environment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I dunno, I think the raccoon would be pretty smart.
No, it's seriously exactly the approach I'd expect a racoon to take.

Quote:
Intellectual positions need to be self-policing to some degree - every ideology ends up attracting some nutjobs, and if the intelligent people supporting it want it to be taken seriously then they should do their best to distance themselves from the loons. If they refuse to do this then you end up with a position which tends to get associated with its fringe elements regardless of whether there are actually some grains of important truth buried deep among all the nonsense. Enviornmentalism is a fairly blatent example of a case where this has happened, but you could also take academic feminism or anarchism to see similar things. The amount of ideologiacally driven bullshit just isnt worth wading through for most people, especially when the subject itself isnt very interesting.
Ignoring environmentalist issues actually poses real risks to you personally, living in a first world economy that is. I'd hesitate before comparing it to academic feminism. I mean, what's the worst that can happen there? You get nagged to death?
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 09:30   #66
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Re: The Environment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
That's not the same thing. That's like saying its not worth learning about ethics because wackjob Christians also talk about ethics.

Also I think in this case I would be interested to see one example of a fringe opinion which has poisoned the environmentalist debate.
"Should trees have standing?" would probably be one appalling opinion the world would be far better off without.



Edit: In case anyone's unaware this a fairly influential essay which proposed that non-human entities be awarded rights.


Further edit for reference
Quote:
[N]atural objects can communicate their wants (needs) to us, and in ways that are not terribly ambiguous. I am sure I can judge with more certainty and meaningfulness whether and when my lawn wants (needs) water, than the Attorney General can judge whether and when the United States wants (needs) to take an appeal from an adverse judgment by a lower court. The lawn tells me that it wants water by a certain dryness of the blades and soil -- immediately obvious to the touch -- the appearance of bald spots, yellowing, and a lack of springiness after being walked on; how does 'the United States' communicate with the Attorney General? For similar reasons, the guardian-attorney for a smog-endangered stand of pines could venture with more confidence that his client wants the smog stopped, than the directors of a corporation can assert that 'the corporation' wants dividends declared. We make decisions on behalf of, and in the purported interests of, others every day; these 'others' are often creatures who wants are far less verifiable, and even far more metaphysical in conception, than the wants of rivers, trees, and land.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 09:38   #67
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Re: The Environment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Also I think in this case I would be interested to see one example of a fringe opinion which has poisoned the environmentalist debate.
Anything involving promoting biodiversity for its own sake, or talking about nature having intrinsic value outside the value assigned to it by humans, or talking about human beings 'ruining' nature in any sense other than changes which have an impact on human life. All of these are fairly prevalent, implicitly if not explicitly.

My ex-flatmate said he liked trees more than people I dont blame him really, but theres a difference between being disgusted by individual people and a dislike of humanity in an abstract sense.

Last edited by Nodrog; 1 Feb 2007 at 10:17.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 09:42   #68
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Re: The Environment

A tree would eat you and everyone you care about if it could.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 09:45   #69
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Re: The Environment

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Ignoring environmentalist issues actually poses real risks to you personally, living in a first world economy that is.
From my personal point of view it doesnt matter whether I'm informed on the subject - its not like my actions will significantly effect the envioroment in the grand scheme of things. I do feel I have something of an intellectual duty to know a bit about it, but the amount of politically-charged bullshit that seems to be associated makes it not worth my effort. If there was actually a reasonable body of fairly uncontroversial theory which had been established beyond reasonable doubt then I'd probably read it (assuming it was short), but that doesnt seem to be the case. The earth sciences are unfathomably dull compared to things like physics and maths though .

Quote:
I'd hesitate before comparing it to academic feminism. I mean, what's the worst that can happen there? You get nagged to death?
Women will keep getting raped under an oppressive system of instutional patriarchy


edit: I used to get affect/effect right every time just by instinct, but last week I read a definition of what they actually meant and now I'm actually consciously thinking about it and end up making mistakes. I am like the tap-dancing centipede :(

Last edited by Nodrog; 1 Feb 2007 at 09:53.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 09:51   #70
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Re: The Environment

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
A tree would eat you and everyone you care about if it could.
Their bark is worse than their bite.
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 09:51   #71
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Re: The Environment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
From my personal point of view it doesnt matter whether I'm informed on the subject - its not like I'm in charge of setting policy. I do feel I have something of an intellectual duty to know a bit about it, but the amount of politically-charged bullshit that seems to be associated makes it not worth my effort. If there was actually a reasonable body of fairly uncontroversial theory which had been established beyond reasonable doubt then I'd probably read it (assuming it was short), but that doesnt seem to be the case. The earth sciences are unfathomably dull compared to things like physics and maths though
It's probably not excessively difficult to find, I suppose you could ask a few people here for ideas on where to start. Hell, walk into a book shop and just start browsing until you find something that looks reasonably well thought-out and start reading from there. There's a wealth of information on this internet thing apparently, perhaps you could utilise some of that?

Quote:
Women will keep getting raped under an oppressive system of instutional patriarchy
Quote:
Feminist international relations theory itself comes in several versions. There is feminist empiricism, feminist standpoint theory and feminist postmodernism. Feminist empiricism is epistemologically conservative, though not politically conservative. Its adherents assert that an unconscious masculine bias has influenced the choice of, and answers to, questions in academic disciplines, but that the presence of female scholars can correct "androcentric" distortion; objectivity is difficult, but it is possible. Feminist standpoint theorists and feminist postmodernists criticize feminist empiricists for failing to realize how much mainstream (or "malestream") thinking incorporates "masculinist" assumptions. The standpoint theorists argue that the entire enterprise of international relations theory, like other disciplines, has to be rethought from the standpoint of women. The postmodernists qualify this by arguing that there is no single standpoint of women, accusing the standpoint theorists of the great heresy of essentialism, that is, of mistaking their own white middle-class feminine concepts and values for those of women in general. In short, the standpoint theorists accuse the empiricists of thinking like men, and the postmodernists accuse standpoint theorists of thinking like affluent white women.
PS it's affect in your post I believe
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 09:59   #72
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Re: The Environment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecofeminism

edit:
Quote:
Vandana Shiva writes that modern science, "emerged as a liberating force not for humanity as a whole (though it legitimized itself in terms of universal benefit for all), but as a Western, male-oriented and patriarchal projection which necessarily entailed the subjugation of both nature and women."(6)

This destructive connection between women and nature exists first on a symbolic level. Experimental science became possible when nature ceased being an organism and became a machine: as long as the earth was alive or sacred, it was wrong to violate or otherwise exploit it. "The Death of Nature" made science possible, a death linked to her female status. Further, as a female, Nature not only could be dominated, she wanted to be dominated, wanted her secrets penetrated. The rhetoric on this is graphic. Because she was dead, Nature and those associated with her-women, people of color, etc.-could be, and should be, exploited

http://www.metanexus.net/metanexus_o...e2.asp?ID=2669
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 10:57   #73
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Re: The Environment

I've read that and im seriously

Quote:
Ecofeminism rejects ontological and epistemological assumptions based on homogeneity, arguing that exclusion reduces our capacity to know nature. To the extent that it excludes the real differences that emerge in nature, and to the extent that it excludes or dismisses alternative epistemologies and ways of knowing, science gives us false universals that are, in fact, constructions.
jesus christ


That said i don't know if nod has said it in so many words but i think there is a parallel between the antropomorphist idoicy with regards to the animal kingdom and the quasi-gaia-earth-out-to-punish-us-for-killing-it thing going on with 'nature'. Rather amusingly it appears that in our attempt to appease mother earth and stop global disaster the mexicans have been shafted. They'll probably cut down more rainforest now in order to make biodiesel that doesn't produce things that kill trees.


edit anyone else having trouble with google?
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 14:18   #74
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Re: The Environment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rc_Mayhem
As I said, it would only work if you reduced the max peak by at least a powerstations.
This is in principle correct, but not quite; most power stations maintain a number of generators (typically four), so that a generator or two can have maintenence go on whilst not inturrupting supply, and also to kick in extra power if it is needed (like on really hot days).

As such, lets say your local station typically runs three generators; turning off your telly wont reduce emissions. However, enough people turning off their telly on a consistent and prolonged basis will give cause for the power station to consider turning off one of their generators, thus saving fuel costs and increasing profits. Now, this is just another case where individually saving energy is a complete and utter waste of time unless everyone else is doing it too - i think there is a special name for it, alas it escapes me at the moment .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
(hybrid cars are something of a hot commodity in the US these days, although I'd prefer one of these).
HOLY MOTHER OF GOD! US$92000 for a Car?! plus $30000 for a "reservation fee" so you can buy one in two years time? Waiting periods for cars of that length of time is *so* Soviet Union c1960.

so, 92000+30000, plus $6000 for "accessories" and wahtever = $128 000
128000/0.77 = AU$166233.

You can buy a pretty flash Holden Commodore here for $40 000, and lets say that fuel is $1.10 per litre and you can get 100k/10L for fuel (which is reasonable, Holden figures are obviously lower but this is the real world), that's a brand spanking new Commodore and 114757 litres of fuel, which is what, 11 thousand k worth of travel? Then there are running costs for that other car, and petrol is a hell of alot cheaper in the US too!
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 14:21   #75
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Re: The Environment

Anyone seen :"who killed the electrical car?"
Its worth a viewing
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 14:25   #76
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Re: The Environment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
How does this work then? Definite quality of life reductions as well as significantly expanded government beauracracy now, in order to reduce the possibility of something bad happening in the future years after we're all dead? Pascal's wager is a bad argument for a reason.

From a purely pragmatic point of view we'd probably be better off just nuking India and doing our best to sabotage the growth of China. Theyre the 2 countries which are going to increase world pollution most over the next 100 years..
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
That having been said, however, I would not expect someone with a firmly held belief in free market economics to be required to make a similar concession, or even support its premises; it would be somewhat hypocritical of me to do that, considering I'm an atheist.
Score 1 point for efficiency
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Unread 1 Feb 2007, 18:08   #77
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Re: The Environment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
Intellectual positions need to be self-policing to some degree - every ideology ends up attracting some nutjobs, and if the intelligent people supporting it want it to be taken seriously then they should do their best to distance themselves from the loons.
I'm not sure it's sensible to have collective responsibility for intellectual positions. Otherwise we'd spend all our time condemning the idiots who might be vaguely on "our side". Sure, I do bother going to the effort of distancing myself from Zhukov as a lefty or you as a libertarian, but does that mean I'm guilty of not properly distancing myself from the people out there who love the Khmer Rogue or what-not? There's clearly a lot of shit that's been written by people who broadly support positions you hold, where is your condemnation of them all? Or is that different?

I certainly see no reason why a scientist writing about climate change should feel the need to condemn people who are clearly insane when it comes to animal rights - anymore that he should feel the need to apologise for slavery of the black man, or the holocaust, or whatever else. Of course, if someone has explicitly said "I really like everything that Joe Bloggs has ever written" and that turns out to include a bunch of stuff about the final solution of the gipsy problem then sure, there's some responsiblity to be clear things up, but I doubt that's how things normally happen.

You seem to be half-admitting this, but isn't this just a rather feeble excuse? I don't like hip-hop. If someone asks me if I've bothered listened to x or y artists (who might represent the better end of the spectrum) I'll say "no but look at Missy Elliot and those other ugly negroes, why would I?" but that's just an excuse because I'm lazy and musically conservative. Aren't you doing the same thing?

As for :
Quote:
From my personal point of view it doesnt matter whether I'm informed on the subject - its not like my actions will significantly effect the envioroment in the grand scheme of things.
This isn't very ambitious man. Aren't you planning on being rich? If you became the CEO of GlobalDeath Corp (or even a junior procurement management for a local council) you actually will end up having quite a bit of an impact - although arguably your own personal usage patterns are more important than you're suggesting. Unless you're going to be a hermit or a student-bum I doubt you can safely assume you'll never an impact on the world. If nothing else, think of all the people who have been influenced by your forum posts!
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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 01:39   #78
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Re: The Environment

Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
I am going to be honest, I have turned into a clost environmentalist. I am not quite sure what has done it. But my mind is made up, I do believe in Global Warming and I will try and do my bit.

I say this for a few reasons. Firstly my mum lives in a place where they started off trialling but then implementing recycling. Instead of the bin bags, or even two bins we have four bins.

One bin for rubbish, one bin for grass, food waste, etc. One bin for paper and cardboard and one bin for glass, tins and plastic. Then once a week they collect the bins and empty them and they go off and be recycled.

It made me laugh, I was at my dads who doesnt have seperate bins like my mum. Finished my bottle of beer and asked my dad where does he want me to put it, he said in the bin. I said which one and he said the only one he had. When I questioned my dad he understood my concerns, but the bit that suprised me was that I questioned it, I wanted to recyle.

I also don't drive. So where possible I go on a train or bus, and I walk.

People still mock me because I don't have a licence. When they ask why don't you, I reply simply because I want to help out the environment. This shut them up.

But then I guess I started to believe my lies. If I am talking to people I make them try and realise that they could car share or use public transport or even walk.

A great example is this. The place I am currently working at has circa 1000 employees. That's a lot of people. I would say 900 probably drive to work if not more. I don't understand this, the place is next to where all the buses stop and a train station. Good transport links and a fair few live in the local area. My dad happens to live locally. It's a 20 minute walk. Down one hill, and up another and you are there. Every morning I leave at 8.25. I always see the same kids walking past me, the postman etc. The same routine, over and over again.

Some of you will remember Finance girl. Katie, she is hot. Probably not single but I don't care. Anyway apparently she lives around the corner. This makes sense, as I see her every morning drive past me. Now here is the funny thing.

I leave at 8.25, Katie leaves at 8.25. We are both from the same place, both have to be in for 8.45 yet only one of us is walking. She doesn't need her car at work, she is finance all she does is number crunch and pay my wages. Yet she can't walk.

Oh she sits in traffic for 20 minutes, we both get there at the same time (normally I arrive before her) So there is no benefit for driving except wasting energy and polluting.

Then there is finance girl number 2, also fairly hot. Sarah. Likewise she lives near me and Katie. Does she walk? Does she balls. She drives as well. Now I wouldn't mind as much if Katie gave Sarah a lift. Heck they are good friends and work together. But no both want to spend 20 minutes in traffic polluting this place.

This example is certainly not unique. Many others who live 5,10,15, 20, 30 minute walks away who drive in. Not only that no one car shares.

Anyway this hasn't made much sense, more saying that I am aware of the environment and while I am by no means perfect I am trying to do my bit.
Now I understand the random attacks on you with knives.
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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 03:48   #79
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Re: The Environment

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Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
HOLY MOTHER OF GOD! US$92000 for a Car?! plus $30000 for a "reservation fee" so you can buy one in two years time? Waiting periods for cars of that length of time is *so* Soviet Union c1960.

so, 92000+30000, plus $6000 for "accessories" and wahtever = $128 000
128000/0.77 = AU$166233.

You can buy a pretty flash Holden Commodore here for $40 000, and lets say that fuel is $1.10 per litre and you can get 100k/10L for fuel (which is reasonable, Holden figures are obviously lower but this is the real world), that's a brand spanking new Commodore and 114757 litres of fuel, which is what, 11 thousand k worth of travel? Then there are running costs for that other car, and petrol is a hell of alot cheaper in the US too!
Yes but all this doesn't escape the fact that holdens are shit!
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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 07:37   #80
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Exclamation Re: The Environment

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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Seems fairly simple to me. You work out how much it costs to mitigate against the problem caused and then divide it by the number of potential people.
I don't think the actual problems caused by automobile emissions are that well understood. For example, it's generally accepted that higher concentrations of automobile emissions can aggrevate asthma and other respiratory diseases; but what concentrations and how often and to what degree? How many cases are we talking about and how much worse has automobile emissions made them?

The problem is further complicated by the fact that areas with higher levels of automobile emissions tend to have other sources of air pollution as well. Given that the purpose of this exercise is "representing the true cost of transportation" then we have to identify and quantify the externalities caused specifically by automobiles (and exclude all others).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimate Newbie
HOLY MOTHER OF GOD! US$92000 for a Car?! plus $30000 for a "reservation fee" so you can buy one in two years time? Waiting periods for cars of that length of time is *so* Soviet Union c1960.

so, 92000+30000, plus $6000 for "accessories" and wahtever = $128 000
128000/0.77 = AU$166233.
I believe the reservation fee is applied against the price, not added to it (think of it as a hefty down payment ).
Quote:
You can buy a pretty flash Holden Commodore here for $40 000, and lets say that fuel is $1.10 per litre and you can get 100k/10L for fuel (which is reasonable, Holden figures are obviously lower but this is the real world), that's a brand spanking new Commodore and 114757 litres of fuel, which is what, 11 thousand k worth of travel? Then there are running costs for that other car, and petrol is a hell of alot cheaper in the US too!
Well no one buys a hybrid or electric car to save money! (unless they're gambling on a massive increase in the price of gasoline).
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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 10:42   #81
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Re: The Environment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
The problem is further complicated by the fact that areas with higher levels of automobile emissions tend to have other sources of air pollution as well. Given that the purpose of this exercise is "representing the true cost of transportation" then we have to identify and quantify the externalities caused specifically by automobiles (and exclude all others).
Yes, of course it's difficult - probably impossible (at present) to quantify the exact damage done but that's hardly unique to this situation. In a court case where one party sues another for damages it might be impossible to perfectly quantify this (since a lot of it is speculative) but a judge or jury will base rulings on the information they do have. All involved realise any judgement will not be perfect to the last penny, but that doesn't mean we don't bother.

In the case of the environment I agree that the specific values involved aren't going to be particularly accurate (and never could be I guess) but I don't think that's really the point. They are supposed to help represent the environmental cost which results from certain behaviour. They are far from perfect, but they seem superior to the alternatives.

Emission standards work quite well for new things, much like building codes or heating appliance standards but they're difficult to apply to what's already there. We can demand new cars/houses meet the new code, but it's rarely practical to apply this to the existing stock. At best, this means there is a significant "lag" before the true benefits are felt. If today we passed a law saying all new heating systems sold have to meet some new super standard then it'd be more than forty years before the pre-code systems were fully gone (and unlike cars, there's not too many people even at the high end of the market who replace their heating systems every year). With things like buildings the period is even longer - the building regulations of this year will potentially never apply to 100% of our housting stock and it would probably take something like 75 years to apply to even half of all dwellings.

I'd say there's an issue of choice here. If you want to live in a drafty old house that's terribly energy inefficient - with your old crappy boiler running 24/7 and electric heaters in each room, then why shouldn't you be allowed to do so? Of course, you should have to pay towards the general damage caused by your behaviour, but again I wouldn't approach this in a moral way ("Here's your fine from the Eco-Police!") - more that it's understood the energy prices you pay represent in some sense the environmental impact involved. The alternative (if the problem get's sufficiently serious) is to "ban" people from living in a certain way and excuse me while I appreciate the irony but I'm not overly fond of that approach.

To take a topical example. Under new regulations from June any property sold in the UK will need to have an "Energy Performance Certificate" which will show the expected energy usage of a dwelling to the potential purchaser. There are various issues around these things which I won't get into here, but overall they're supposed to allow people to factor in energy efficiency in their purchase decision. The vague principle seems reasonable enough.

And so by representing externalities through (say) some kind of carbon tax we incentivise people moving into better insulated dwellings, improving what they currently have, choosing better more eco-friendly heating systems and so on. Yes, energy costs can help incentivise these behaviours too but it's fairly obvious they cannot be relied upon to even vaguely represent the environmental costs involved.
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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 14:04   #82
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Re: The Environment

A general consumer-level scheme to tax emissions or signficantly raise electricity prices wont happen, because people will just whine that it's regressive (because obviously electricity consumed by the poor is less damaging to the environment per unit than that consumed by the rich). It's less damaging politically to target producers and industries, rather than homes. I suppose its possible that you could combine politically related agendas and have some wealth-redistribution scheme dressed up in environmental clothes where homeowners get some basic electricity allowance for 'free' and increased charges only occur to those who use more than this (ie those who use a lot of electricty end up paying for those who dont use much), but who knows.

Last edited by Nodrog; 3 Feb 2007 at 14:10.
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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 15:55   #83
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Re: The Environment

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
I suppose its possible that you could combine politically related agendas and have some wealth-redistribution scheme dressed up in environmental clothes where homeowners get some basic electricity allowance for 'free' and increased charges only occur to those who use more than this (ie those who use a lot of electricty end up paying for those who dont use much), but who knows.
I don't think this would be fashionable with today's public policy types. It's much more likely that you would shift around other allowances, or actually give people money directly (as with the winter fuel allowance which older people get). The reason why "free electricity" would be unpopular is exactly because there would be zero incentive to use less than that.

Instead, I think it's more likely that electricity prices would go higher, people on benefits would get some energy allowance increase or something, and then you could fiddle around with tax brackets for working people on lower incomes. That would mean you could choose to keep your electricity usage down and pocket the change, which is exactly the sort of behavior you want to be encouraging, I guess (unless people freeze to death or something).

A similar sort of plan for housing benefit has been in the pipeline for a while now. At the moment, people's rent is paid for them by the government, and if they move to a different home (with lower or higher rent) the government pays the new rent regardless. Which means no-one has a reason to ever move anywhere smaller/worse while on benefits. And so the plan is to pay a fixed amount for someone's circumstances and then the recepient gets to choose (in theory) to live below or above their allowance rate and save/pay the rest.
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Unread 3 Feb 2007, 20:00   #84
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Re: The Environment

I have installed energy efficient windows and will recieve a tax exemption of some amount for having done so. That is not why I did it however. It was becasue my wife thought they were prettier. The key is to convince women that the energy efficient items are more attractive. The problem will then be to produce enough items to keep them in stock.
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