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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 16:43   #1
Nadval
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The pro-Israeli lobby strikes again.

I'm referring to the response to Jenny Tonge's remarks at the Lib Dem conference.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5366870.stm

What she said was absolutely justified: whilst Israel is committing some of the most damaging acts of terrorism in the world (that we know of), in terms of loss of life and damage to infrastructure, there seems to be an understanding amongst politicians and parts of the media that criticism should be limited. It seems obvious to anyone that cares, that the pro-Israeli lobby has huge financial backing (at least in the UK and the US) and significant influence within government. She stated this and, as if to confirm it, politicians and elements of the media grab it immediately and kick up a huge fuss.

What is most frustrating about it is that people feel the need to bring 'anti-Semitism' into it. It's interesting that one can criticise the actions of the Iranian government or of Saddam Hussein without being considered to have been discriminatory against Muslims, and can despise George Bush's actions without condemning Christianity, yet with regard to Israel any criticism is a criticism of the Jewish faith and all Jews across the globe. That view is more likely to cause anti-Semitism than to prevent it, since it is encouraging the belief that the policies of the Israeli government is synonymous with those of Jews. Jewish people claiming that condemnation of the Israeli government is support of the holocaust is on par with linking criticism of the Irish government to endorsement of the Potato famine 160 years ago* - its ridiculously unfounded.

I'll even go as far as agreeing with Tonge's remarks last year that got her kicked off the Lib Dem front bench - if I lived in palestine and had no choice but to endure Israeli oppression, my better judgement would probably be clouded by my anger, my lack of hope and faith in the international community, and I'd want to do anything to display that anger to the world, and probably wouldn't have much sympathy for Israeli citizens whose suffering I would cause. Suicide bombers aren't necessarily good OR bad for their cause and if the situation begins to resolve then perhaps it'll be an AS-level history question in 60 years time, but right now it's difficult to say - they're certainly attracting a lot of media attention to their cause, albeit relatively negative for the time being.

Does anyone see inconsistency in condemning both anti-Semitism and the actions of the Israeli government? Considering that I am technically Jewish (the race side, not the religion), I see no clash between the two.

*endorsement of the British government's response perhaps, since they were exporting all alternative food supplies which, it is believed, prevented a solution from developing.

Last edited by Nadval; 21 Sep 2006 at 16:51.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 17:18   #2
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Re: The pro-Israeli lobby strikes again.

I can understand why the Lib Dems are a bit pissed off with her for saying "The pro-Israeli lobby has got its grips on the western world, its financial grips. I think they've probably got a grip on our party."

But the whole anti-semite thing is extremely annoying. It's very similar to discussing the difference between white people and black people and being called a racist.

You know as well as I do the stream of bile from Jewish activists that gets directed at any journalist that writes anything critical of Israel.

It was bemusing that Ken Livingston got caught up in the 'calling a jewish person a prison camp guard' when I've seen Jewish people spout the same bollocks at more moderate jews because they've criticised the palestinian occupation.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 17:22   #3
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Re: The pro-Israeli lobby strikes again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
I can understand why the Lib Dems are a bit pissed off with her for saying "The pro-Israeli lobby has got its grips on the western world, its financial grips. I think they've probably got a grip on our party."
I can understand why they'd be pissed off, especially if it's true. She was kicked off the front bench last year for empathising with palestinian suicide bombers, I think she has reason to believe that there's undue Israeli influence within her party. They were able to criticise the attack on Lebanon without much backlash, but that is at a time when they have very little power or influence. If they reached government I don't think it would be unreasonable to say that they "probably" would gain a grip on the party.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 17:33   #4
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Re: The pro-Israeli lobby strikes again.

At the same time though - Massive zionist conspiracy theories are a bit stupid.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 17:37   #5
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Re: The pro-Israeli lobby strikes again.

Given the amount of coverage in the press at the moment that is critical of Israel, I'm not really sure what you're talking about.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 17:48   #6
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Exclamation Re: The pro-Israeli lobby strikes again.

I think that virtually all of the 'pro-Israel lobby' meme is so far over the top that it is anti-semetic. The idea that jews control various political parties and even entire western countries, far out of proportion to their numbers or any hyper-inflated perception of their combined wealth, is one of the more pernicious ideas of the 20th century (you can probably credit The Protocols of the Elders of Zion for that).
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 17:55   #7
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Re: The pro-Israeli lobby strikes again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
I think that virtually all of the 'pro-Israel lobby' meme is so far over the top that it is anti-semetic. The idea that jews control various political parties and even entire western countries, far out of proportion to their numbers or any hyper-inflated perception of their combined wealth, is one of the more pernicious ideas of the 20th century (you can probably credit The Protocols of the Elders of Zion for that).
it's not about 'the Jews' though, that's the whole point. Jack Straw isn't a particularly troubling figure. Dubya, on the other hand, who is a Zionist, not a Jew, is worrisome.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 17:58   #8
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Re: The pro-Israeli lobby strikes again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
I think that virtually all of the 'pro-Israel lobby' meme is so far over the top that it is anti-semetic. The idea that jews control various political parties and even entire western countries, far out of proportion to their numbers or any hyper-inflated perception of their combined wealth, is one of the more pernicious ideas of the 20th century (you can probably credit The Protocols of the Elders of Zion for that).
I'm not saying they control things. I'm saying that, with regards to rhetoric on Israel, they have enough influence to prevent government ministers and politicians from speaking out against Israel or else suffer a bombardment of emails and claims of anti-Semitism. I feel that it is a mockery of anti-racism to use the term to represent any criticism of any government policy with respect to a given nation. Let us compare it to tobacco companies in America: Whilst noone will claim that they 'run the nation', they certainly have sufficient power and influence to prevent any government measures that would threaten their cause.


edit: And the fact that I'm not talking about Jews - I'm talking about pro-Israelis. My mother had a very Jewish upbringing, yet she fights continuously for the palastinian cause. The West, I believe, has certain interests in keeping a strong pro-Western Israel in a predominantly oil-rich, anti-West, Middle East.
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 19:00   #9
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Re: The pro-Israeli lobby strikes again.

My understanding is that the majority of the "anti-west" feelings in the Middle East come from the west’s creation and reinforcement of Israel.

so it wouldnt really make much sence for the west to keep a pro west country in the middle east, at the expense of pissing off every other country there..
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 19:28   #10
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Re: The pro-Israeli lobby strikes again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ste
I can understand why the Lib Dems are a bit pissed off with her for saying "The pro-Israeli lobby has got its grips on the western world, its financial grips. I think they've probably got a grip on our party."

But the whole anti-semite thing is extremely annoying. It's very similar to discussing the difference between white people and black people and being called a racist.
A traditional anti-semitic lie has been about jews controlling the economy, being rich, manipulative, shadowy and taking power over governments for several hundred years.

THAT's why it's antisemiticism.

The far more important element of the article is why throughout a Baroness is described as "Ms.".
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Unread 21 Sep 2006, 20:54   #11
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Re: The pro-Israeli lobby strikes again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
A traditional anti-semitic lie has been about jews controlling the economy, being rich, manipulative, shadowy and taking power over governments for several hundred years.
It's not a lie unless a filthy jew says it I think you should read your memos more often dude
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Unread 22 Sep 2006, 14:01   #12
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Re: The pro-Israeli lobby strikes again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
A traditional anti-semitic lie has been about jews controlling the economy, being rich, manipulative, shadowy and taking power over governments for several hundred years.

THAT's why it's antisemiticism.
The fact that this lie may resemble the accusations of Jenny Tonge does not necessarily mean that the two are one and the same thing though. If a peer is moved to make these accusations I'd be inclined to look into the matter before drawing any conclusions; we certainly shouldn't censor any kind of debate for the sake of moral tidiness.

Whenever I hear cries of anti-Semitism in response to criticism of the Israeli state it frustrates me incredibly. Such a response is to claim that there can be no objection to the policies of Israel that is not grounded in prejudice, which is clearly ridiculous.
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Unread 24 Sep 2006, 07:12   #13
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Re: The pro-Israeli lobby strikes again.

Aren't Arabs also semites?
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