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2 Apr 2005, 21:27
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#1
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1up on you
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
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Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Discuss
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pig
[ 1u p]
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2 Apr 2005, 21:30
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#2
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
About as cool as having down's syndrome.
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2 Apr 2005, 21:37
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#3
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1up on you
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
About as cool as having down's syndrome.
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i disagree, why is catholicism being given so much coverage? I bet even jews and muslims wish tehy were catholic today.
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pig
[ 1u p]
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2 Apr 2005, 21:39
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#4
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
i disagree, why is catholicism being given so much coverage? I bet even jews and muslims wish tehy were catholic today.
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what in the sixty sodomised space lizards are you talking about?
__________________
Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
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2 Apr 2005, 21:41
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#5
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
i disagree, why is catholicism being given so much coverage?
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Because the Pope has just died?
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2 Apr 2005, 21:44
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#6
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Evil inside
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
About as cool as having down's syndrome.
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Besides the Pope was stuck in the middle agees with his views on abortion, homosexualty, condoms, etc.
Why he was granted access to modern age medicin is beyond me. If he really thought the middle agees was so great, he should actually have refused to benefit from modern medicin himself!
__________________
<Germania>but you called Fury a bully, and that is terribly unfair
<Hicks>Occassionally individuals do things without Executive consent
<Dreadnought>You cant whois on Eclipse server without a registered nic, which mr ****stirrer doesnt have.
<Almeida> well i like to grow fat myself too, and when i have enough ships then i can engage in big battles
<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
<Jakiri> (Windows)XP was fine on release
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2 Apr 2005, 21:47
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#7
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
The Papacy has seriously lagged behind the rest of the world on practically all important social and political issues, and has almost always ended up capitulating on their previous stances, since about 1500.
I don't know why they don't just try to keep up to date and save themselves the hassle.
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2 Apr 2005, 21:54
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#8
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1up on you
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
The Papacy has seriously lagged behind the rest of the world on practically all important social and political issues, and has almost always ended up capitulating on their previous stances, since about 1500.
I don't know why they don't just try to keep up to date and save themselves the hassle.
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completly agree but its like that for most major religions is it not? Remember theres 1billion catholics around atm, do you think they would lose or gain more by changing there stance. Although the pope did end communism*
*supposedly
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pig
[ 1u p]
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2 Apr 2005, 22:08
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#9
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Although the pope did end communism*
*supposedly
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absolutely. the pressure from the united states and the abuse of power and subsequent turning of public opinion and of course the sheer incompetency of each and every echelon of soviet government had no part to play.
__________________
Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
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2 Apr 2005, 22:13
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#10
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Affectionate Nickname
Join Date: May 2002
Location: wigan
Posts: 206
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Owned.
__________________
My posts represent me and me alone and have no connection to any of the communities I may or may not be involved in unless stated within my posts. Bints.
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2 Apr 2005, 23:17
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#11
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Freedom Fanatic
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Doing evil deeds in the name of freedom
Posts: 680
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
it all depends, is Bono catholic?
If so then yes it is cool to be a papist tim bastard.
__________________
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference.
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2 Apr 2005, 23:21
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#12
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pig
Although the pope did end communism*
*supposedly
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Wahahahahaha, wahahahahaha, wahahahahahaha, ohahahahahaha! Ohhahahaha, ohahahahahah, wahahahahaha, etc
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2 Apr 2005, 23:49
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#13
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1up on you
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninja_spammer
it all depends, is Bono catholic?
If so then yes it is cool to be a papist tim bastard.
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i think he is.
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pig
[ 1u p]
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3 Apr 2005, 00:47
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#14
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cynic
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bishop Auckland Co. Durham
Posts: 8,809
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Besides the Pope was stuck in the middle agees with his views on abortion, homosexualty, condoms, etc.
Why he was granted access to modern age medicin is beyond me. If he really thought the middle agees was so great, he should actually have refused to benefit from modern medicin himself!
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once again, GK proves he's a cnut (and not in the good sense) you do realise that JP2 was one of the best popes ever right?
christ, knowing your views, i bet you still haven't forgiven the catholics for the crusades, right?
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lazy
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3 Apr 2005, 00:50
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#15
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1up on you
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
once again, GK proves he's a cnut (and not in the good sense) you do realise that JP2 was one of the best popes ever right?
christ, knowing your views, i bet you still haven't forgiven the catholics for the crusades, right?
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we arent proud of the crusades, but if you say jihad we wont be scared to say crusade.
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pig
[ 1u p]
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3 Apr 2005, 01:04
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#16
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I am.
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,580
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
watch your use of the word 'we' there pig my boy
"there never has been, i suppose, in all the history of war, such an opportunity for youth. the knights of the round table and the crusaders all fall back into the past. not only distant but prosaic.
but these young airmen going forth each day, holding in their hands these instruments of collossal and shattering power..."
W. Churchill (the we shall never surrender speach)
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hi
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3 Apr 2005, 01:08
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#17
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1up on you
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
watch your use of the word 'we' there pig my boy)
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my bad
still the muslims think that jihad is :COOL: the crusades were done with style]
__________________
pig
[ 1u p]
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3 Apr 2005, 01:09
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#18
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BlueTuba
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,339
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
catholics have always been cool
__________________
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
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3 Apr 2005, 02:19
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#19
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Evil inside
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
once again, GK proves he's a cnut (and not in the good sense) you do realise that JP2 was one of the best popes ever right?
christ, knowing your views, i bet you still haven't forgiven the catholics for the crusades, right?
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Once again you show yourself to be a complete moron.
When will you actually manage to bring up with you a argument? Is it that difficult, or are you just braindead. Im actually tempted to sign up about 100 accounts here, just so I can neg rep your sorry little "I have no clue, so I cant come up with any argument or facts in a discussion" to neg rep red hell.
And Im not going to answer your crusades thingy, couse it has nothing to do with the newly dead Pope beeing a reactionary, old-fashioned man still stuck in the middle agees.
Regarding the north-ireland thread, the only ones who were actually making some sense there, was me, Dante and furball. The rest of you were a bunch of idiots with no actually knowlegde about the subject (not mention the need for showing off your macho e-penises, like 16 year old boys trying to make a impression on your first love). Your level of discussion, in particular, was worst of the worse. Your so shit, it really defines a new level. It makes Sundaypm stand out like a freaking GD-God. Thats how bad you are.
Its always a pleasure telling people like you how utterly incompetent and stupid they are.
Thanks
__________________
<Germania>but you called Fury a bully, and that is terribly unfair
<Hicks>Occassionally individuals do things without Executive consent
<Dreadnought>You cant whois on Eclipse server without a registered nic, which mr ****stirrer doesnt have.
<Almeida> well i like to grow fat myself too, and when i have enough ships then i can engage in big battles
<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
<Jakiri> (Windows)XP was fine on release
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3 Apr 2005, 04:28
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#20
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Klaatu barada nikto
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: St. Paul, Minnesota
Posts: 3,237
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
The Papacy has seriously lagged behind the rest of the world on practically all important social and political issues, and has almost always ended up capitulating on their previous stances, since about 1500.
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And yet, John Paul II will probably be remembered as one of the most significant popes--arguably the most influentual pope in the past 500 years. This in spite of his conservatism on social issues (less so on political issues).
Quote:
I don't know why they don't just try to keep up to date and save themselves the hassle.
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If you keep updating dogma it ceases to be dogma.
__________________
The Ottawa Citizen and Southam News wish to apologize for our apology to Mark Steyn, published Oct. 22. In correcting the incorrect statements about Mr. Steyn published Oct. 15, we incorrectly published the incorrect correction. We accept and regret that our original regrets were unacceptable and we apologize to Mr. Steyn for any distress caused by our previous apology.
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3 Apr 2005, 10:24
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#21
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Miles Teg
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Dom City
Posts: 5,192
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Catholicism, just like any other form of religion, is just a socially accepted form of masshysteria.
__________________
Audentes Fortuna Iuvat
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3 Apr 2005, 17:47
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#22
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Besides the Pope was stuck in the middle agees with his views on abortion, homosexualty, condoms, etc.
Why he was granted access to modern age medicin is beyond me. If he really thought the middle agees was so great, he should actually have refused to benefit from modern medicin himself!
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This would make more* sense if the pope opposed any facets of the area of medical science which kept him alive.
*any
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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3 Apr 2005, 18:37
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#23
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
And yet, John Paul II will probably be remembered as one of the most significant popes--arguably the most influentual pope in the past 500 years. This in spite of his conservatism on social issues (less so on political issues).
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I think you kind of delivered your own retort to that one.
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3 Apr 2005, 18:44
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#24
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I AM THE ONE & ONLY
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Sunderland(FTM)
Posts: 554
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
im a catholic and i tend to think its rather cool when brasil win the world cup
__________________
Blind Faith - FTM
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3 Apr 2005, 18:49
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#25
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Evil inside
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
This would make more* sense if the pope opposed any facets of the area of medical science which kept him alive.
*any
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And modern medical science comes out of nothing, or the development of society as a whole?
__________________
<Germania>but you called Fury a bully, and that is terribly unfair
<Hicks>Occassionally individuals do things without Executive consent
<Dreadnought>You cant whois on Eclipse server without a registered nic, which mr ****stirrer doesnt have.
<Almeida> well i like to grow fat myself too, and when i have enough ships then i can engage in big battles
<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
<Jakiri> (Windows)XP was fine on release
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3 Apr 2005, 19:11
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#26
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Clerk
Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 13,940
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
The fact this Pope was better than his predecessors is so laughably irrelevent I don't even know where to start.
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3 Apr 2005, 19:16
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#27
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so f*cking zen
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Hitting Bottom
Posts: 8,499
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
i disagree
__________________
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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3 Apr 2005, 19:18
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#28
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
i disagree
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you're right. he wasn't that much better than his predecessors.
__________________
Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
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3 Apr 2005, 19:23
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#29
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so f*cking zen
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Hitting Bottom
Posts: 8,499
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
i disagree
__________________
On a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everyone drops to zero.
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3 Apr 2005, 19:28
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#30
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dace
i disagree
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Dace is 100% hetro.
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3 Apr 2005, 19:30
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#31
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Banned
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 2,635
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Wahahahahaha, wahahahahaha, wahahahahahaha, ohahahahahaha! Ohhahahaha, ohahahahahah, wahahahahaha, etc
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Look, if the BBC said it then it's true.
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3 Apr 2005, 19:32
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#32
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Gone
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,656
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weeks
Look, if the BBC said it then it's true.
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The problem is, we already known that Ronald Reagan defeated Communism single handedly, and no doubt Thatcher, when she dies, will also have defeated it single handedly. So where does Mr Pope fit in with all of this?
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3 Apr 2005, 19:52
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#33
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BlueTuba
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 6,339
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson
Dace is 100% hetro.
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I thought this said 'Dace is 100% heron'
__________________
"Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life."
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3 Apr 2005, 19:54
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#34
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
I thought this said 'Dace is 100% heron'
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i'd buy that for a dollar!
__________________
Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
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3 Apr 2005, 20:10
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#35
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1up on you
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Birmingham, UK
Posts: 4,007
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lokken
I thought this said 'Dace is 100% heron'
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i thought it said "Dace is 100% hero"
__________________
pig
[ 1u p]
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3 Apr 2005, 20:13
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#36
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I dunno...
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: manchester
Posts: 1,502
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
This place is overwhelmingly cynical.
__________________
He shall drink naught but brine, for I'll not show him / Where the quick freshes are.
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3 Apr 2005, 22:20
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#37
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Freedom Fanatic
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Doing evil deeds in the name of freedom
Posts: 680
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Some might call it being realistic.
__________________
The universe we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind pitiless indifference.
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3 Apr 2005, 22:23
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#38
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I play the double-bass.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,198
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
the world is cynic not me!
__________________
The music called Jaazzz..
Charlie Mingus, such nimble fingers
Droppin the bass, all over the place
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4 Apr 2005, 17:59
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#39
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
And modern medical science comes out of nothing, or the development of society as a whole?
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Oh yeah because there are no facets of modern society you don't oppose
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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4 Apr 2005, 18:06
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#40
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Evil inside
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
Oh yeah because there are no facets of modern society you don't oppose
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Dont evade the question mista JBG.
__________________
<Germania>but you called Fury a bully, and that is terribly unfair
<Hicks>Occassionally individuals do things without Executive consent
<Dreadnought>You cant whois on Eclipse server without a registered nic, which mr ****stirrer doesnt have.
<Almeida> well i like to grow fat myself too, and when i have enough ships then i can engage in big battles
<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
<Jakiri> (Windows)XP was fine on release
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4 Apr 2005, 18:07
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#41
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Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 278
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by idimmu
really cool people now want to join the Opus Dei
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Hit me baby one more time!
________
The Legend Condominium Cosy Beach
Last edited by ceres; 31 Aug 2011 at 06:55.
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4 Apr 2005, 18:13
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#42
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Dont evade the question mista JBG.
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But the question's bizzare. Saying you should only receive treatment if you agree with the society, which created said treatment, in it's totality is an insane assertion as it would mean that basically nobody would ever get treatment.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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4 Apr 2005, 18:19
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#43
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cynic
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Bishop Auckland Co. Durham
Posts: 8,809
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
Once again you show yourself to be a complete moron.
When will you actually manage to bring up with you a argument? Is it that difficult, or are you just braindead. Im actually tempted to sign up about 100 accounts here, just so I can neg rep your sorry little "I have no clue, so I cant come up with any argument or facts in a discussion" to neg rep red hell.
And Im not going to answer your crusades thingy, couse it has nothing to do with the newly dead Pope beeing a reactionary, old-fashioned man still stuck in the middle agees.
Regarding the north-ireland thread, the only ones who were actually making some sense there, was me, Dante and furball. The rest of you were a bunch of idiots with no actually knowlegde about the subject (not mention the need for showing off your macho e-penises, like 16 year old boys trying to make a impression on your first love). Your level of discussion, in particular, was worst of the worse. Your so shit, it really defines a new level. It makes Sundaypm stand out like a freaking GD-God. Thats how bad you are.
Its always a pleasure telling people like you how utterly incompetent and stupid they are.
Thanks
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it would be even more of a pleasure if you actually had an opinion worth a damn, am i rite?
oh, and sign up all the accounts you want, it wont affect my green blob rating
EDIT: just so my post inst just flaming i'm actually stuck at work and will be replying to this properly when i get home, i just felt like winding zhukov up
__________________
lazy
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4 Apr 2005, 18:24
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#44
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Evil inside
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
But the question's bizzare. Saying you should only receive treatment if you agree with the society, which created said treatment, in it's totality is an insane assertion as it would mean that basically nobody would ever get treatment.
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If you want to live in the middle agees, you should only recive medical assistance according to the standards of the middle age. If that choice was presented to the now dead pope, Osama Bin Laden&Co, protestant evangelists in the USA etc, wouldnt it be interesting to see their choice?
__________________
<Germania>but you called Fury a bully, and that is terribly unfair
<Hicks>Occassionally individuals do things without Executive consent
<Dreadnought>You cant whois on Eclipse server without a registered nic, which mr ****stirrer doesnt have.
<Almeida> well i like to grow fat myself too, and when i have enough ships then i can engage in big battles
<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
<Jakiri> (Windows)XP was fine on release
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4 Apr 2005, 18:25
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#45
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Evil inside
Join Date: Nov 2001
Posts: 3,631
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadrunner_0
it would be even more of a pleasure if you actually had an opinion worth a damn, am i rite?
oh, and sign up all the accounts you want, it wont affect my green blob rating
EDIT: just so my post inst just flaming i'm actually stuck at work and will be replying to this properly when i get home, i just felt like winding zhukov up
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I still dont see an argument. Your still utterly poo
__________________
<Germania>but you called Fury a bully, and that is terribly unfair
<Hicks>Occassionally individuals do things without Executive consent
<Dreadnought>You cant whois on Eclipse server without a registered nic, which mr ****stirrer doesnt have.
<Almeida> well i like to grow fat myself too, and when i have enough ships then i can engage in big battles
<Nantoz> Zhukov for Lord Protector!
<Jakiri> (Windows)XP was fine on release
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4 Apr 2005, 18:29
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#46
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by G.K Zhukov
If you want to live in the middle agees, you should only recive medical assistance according to the standards of the middle age. If that choice was presented to the now dead pope, Osama Bin Laden&Co, protestant evangelists in the USA etc, wouldnt it be interesting to see their choice?
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Pope John Paul II did not want to live in the middle ages.
PS Give it a rest guys.
__________________
Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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4 Apr 2005, 18:35
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#47
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J to the C to the A G E
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Scúnthorpe
Posts: 5,583
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
By the way creating more accounts won't help you change his reputation.
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4 Apr 2005, 18:40
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#48
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Love's Sweet Exile
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Living on a Stair (Now Sword-less)
Posts: 2,371
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Roadrunner is fluffy, with lots of green blobs.
Zhukov is nasty and horrid, with a nice shiny red blob.
I rest my case, m'lud.
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--SYMM--
Ba Ba Ti Ki Di Do
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4 Apr 2005, 18:48
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#49
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Aardvark is a funny word
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I'm No Nino Rota
Posts: 5,923
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
Zhukov has the beginnings of a point, he's just too inept to realise it.
the Pope is somewhat hypocritical in that he condemns, and indeed has spread misinformation about, advances in medical science which benefit others; but not about the branches which benefit him. If the Pope had AIDS i reckon the furore about condoms would have died pretty ****ing fast.
and rr really is an incalculably better human being and internet poster than zhukov.
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Efficiency, efficiency they say
Get to know the date and tell the time of day
As the crowds begin complaining
How the Beaujolais is raining
Down on darkened meetings on the Champs Élysées
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4 Apr 2005, 18:50
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#50
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Banned
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Further to the right
Posts: 19,441
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Re: Is it cool to be Catholic again?
I'd like us all to take a moment to reflect on the undeniable hilarity of the line "if the pope had AIDS".
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Some might ask what good is life without purpose but I'm anticipating a good lunch.
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