A Few Remarks on Fame in Planetarion

[N0VA]

I would have much rather enclosed this remark in one of the threads that pertained to the topic, but I rarely read the boards, and both were created (and closed) between this visit and my last. Furthermore, I won't offer the links to the closed threads, as I do not want this to become another source of flames.

It is my belief that there is a large distinction between fame and impact in Planetarion. Yes, I would put Sid under both of these categories, but I can understand why some people would not, and I find all the criticisms of them to be inadequate.

Fame solely deals with the notions of reputation, recognition by the public, etc. A word derived from it is infamy - which generally alludes to something that is well known, but in a bad context. Neither recognition nor reputation necessitate impact upon the game, and the opposite is also true.

A couple of examples of this are Dravvin and Zhil. Dravvin was not well known until near the end of her career, and even then, she was known primarily by people of importance, outside of her friends. However, she was a battle commander in a lot of important alliances and wars, and inevitably had an impact upon how Planetarion was played out. Similarly, Zhil is not well known outside of Alliance Discussions, even though his impacts upon the game due to Fury and Wrath are rather significant.

On the other side of the coin lies something like Revolt. Due to the links and advertisements offered on their behalf by PA crew back in Round 6, Revolt was widely known - and that in turn was reflected by a rather large irc channel. However, I don't think that anyone would credit Revolt with achieving anything.

So if sn0w is of the belief that Sid is not a famous PA player, that is more a statement of how little his name has been used around Planetarion in the past few rounds than a statement of whether or not Sid has played a fundamental role in Planetarion. In sn0w's defense - even rounds 1-4 saw his name as not a very common one. Back then, the universe was divided into two - the professional players in the lower clusters, and the casual, but numerous, players in the higher ones. The casual players dealt regularly with alliances such as L2K/MI and Virus (yes, Virus used to be a n00b alliance as well). So even though the game was being defined by the professionals, and the commanders such as Sid, the majority of the universe was not concerned with that. Hell, in one round, Game was bigger than my entire cluster - do you honestly think that we honestly cared about who he was or what he did? All that mattered was whether we could defend ourselves against some other nexbies way out in the middle of nowhere.

My final words on the matter are just something to think about. If you ask most people if they know of Henry Kissinger, how many do you think will have even heard the name? Of those, how many do you think will be able to list even one of his accomplishments? There is no objective standard to gauge fame by, as those with fame are constantly changing with time - and in Planetarion, a couple of rounds can be a long period of time.

[Cochese]

Originally posted by N0VA
So if sn0w is of the belief that Sid is not a famous PA player, that is more a statement of how little his name has been used around Planetarion in the past few rounds than a statement of whether or not Sid has played a fundamental role in Planetarion. In sn0w's defense - even rounds 1-4 saw his name as not a very common one. Back then, the universe was divided into two - the professional players in the lower clusters, and the casual, but numerous, players in the higher ones. The casual players dealt regularly with alliances such as L2K/MI and Virus (yes, Virus used to be a n00b alliance as well). So even though the game was being defined by the professionals, and the commanders such as Sid, the majority of the universe was not concerned with that

Point taken.

However, having lurked for 2 months prior to getting this board account (I wish more people would follow this practice), I knew who Sid was, and what his accomplishments were just from reading the boards, and searching back to look up alliance history.

Maybe I wasn't a casual player, just a newbie...but I knew who Sid was. His posting was the gold standard (imho) for a long time...it certainly left an impression on me very early in my Planetarion career, upon opening the forums for the first time and reading one of his posts.

I suppose it's all relative though...I can see how people starting post-round 4 wouldn't necessarily know who Sid was, or consider him to be "famous". Those that do seem to diminish in number as the rounds progress..

Hell, in one round, Game was bigger than my entire cluster - do you honestly think that we honestly cared about who he was or what he did? All that mattered was whether we could defend ourselves against some other nexbies way out in the middle of nowhere

I cared, I was interested. Defending my horrid little planet was easy enough in my high-up cluster, thanks to some sound advice on fleet composition and roid:score ratio from my main man Tactitus.

There are definetly those who don't care though...I know many people who are in it for their friends, and for fun. The "big picture" is of little importance, and so they wouldn't know or care about people like Sid and Game.

Not all "newbies" in high clusters were ignorant of the world around them, though it was easy to get lost up there.

My final words on the matter are just something to think about. If you ask most people if they know of Henry Kissinger, how many do you think will have even heard the name? Of those, how many do you think will be able to list even one of his accomplishments?

Though his achievments are many, I would guess at winning the Nobel Prize for Peace in '73 after negotiating a cease-fire between Vietnam and the US.

There is no objective standard to gauge fame by, as those with fame are constantly changing with time - and in Planetarion, a couple of rounds can be a long period of time.

True, but on the same token, the legacy of players' past lives on through those who come up under them--and eventually rise to take their places.

People like Sid should never be forgotten.

[Obfuscator]

Originally posted by N0VA
stuff

Quiet you unfamous person ;-)

Originally posted by Cochese
Though his achievments are many, I would guess at winning the Nobel Prize for Peace in '73 after negotiating a cease-fire between Vietnam and the US.

Others would point to his setting up Nixon's historic trip to China as being a bit more important

Originally posted by Cochese
True, but on the same token, the legacy of players' past lives on through those who come up under them--and eventually rise to take their places.
People like Sid should never be forgotten.

I actually disagree with you here. Like most things on the internet, PA develops much much faster than things in real life. The legacy of Sid could easily disappear from PA within another year, assuming PA is still around at that time. Personally, I don't see this a problem, but a benefit. It's not always so good to have newer players living/playing in the shadows of something that was in fact, not nearly as good as hindsight will make it out to be.

[Cochese]

Originally posted by Obfuscator



I actually disagree with you here. Like most things on the internet, PA develops much much faster than things in real life. The legacy of Sid could easily disappear from PA within another year, assuming PA is still around at that time. Personally, I don't see this a problem, but a benefit. It's not always so good to have newer players living/playing in the shadows of something that was in fact, not nearly as good as hindsight will make it out to be.

I agree with progress being good, however my point was more that not enough time has gone by (seemingly) to fade the memories of the Triad, and Sid...or maybe it has, though it doesn't seem like it to me:eek:

I suspect that, with most "mainstay" alliances having disbanded recently, and a possible influx (however large/small remains to be seen) of new players potentially on the horizon for round 10, this is clearly a transition period between ages in Planetarion...and I'm sure in a year from now, very few people who know about Sid and the beginnings of Planetarion will be left around.

It's definetly good for the game, but I think there should always be an old sob around to shake a fist at the youngsters, and mutter on aimlessly about "how it used to be"...or at the very least, a more complete history of the game stored on the portal somewhere. This is unique "history" and shouldn't be lost imho.

Who knows, in round 15 Joe Newbie might just read about Sid and become inspired to create the next Fury...

[ComradeRob]

Originally posted by N0VA
It is my belief that there is a large distinction between fame and impact in Planetarion. Yes, I would put Sid under both of these categories, but I can understand why some people would not, and I find all the criticisms of them to be inadequate.

Fame solely deals with the notions of reputation, recognition by the public, etc. A word derived from it is infamy - which generally alludes to something that is well known, but in a bad context. Neither recognition nor reputation necessitate impact upon the game, and the opposite is also true.

I am, in general, tempted to agree with you, but there is one difference I might consider. In a community-based game, 'fame' in itself may be seen as a mark of success, as it is by 'famous' acts that a person contributes to the community. Nameless, faceless individuals will come and go, but the people who really make a mark on the game will be remembered. Playing a community-based game full of hard-working but dull people would not be much fun at all; it is equally as much the infamous people who add to the community as the virtuous hard workers.

A couple of examples of this are Dravvin and Zhil. Dravvin was not well known until near the end of her career, and even then, she was known primarily by people of importance, outside of her friends. However, she was a battle commander in a lot of important alliances and wars, and inevitably had an impact upon how Planetarion was played out. Similarly, Zhil is not well known outside of Alliance Discussions, even though his impacts upon the game due to Fury and Wrath are rather significant.

I don't think this is really a perfect illustration of your point. Zhil is a hard worker who put a lot of effort into his alliance, and cared very deeply about it. He had a flair for the dramatic, which is why he is well known, but it should not be assumed that this means he did not work hard too. Dravvin also worked hard, taking part in many important PA wars as a BC, but perhaps was not as much of a public figure.

I dislike doing personal comparisons, since no two people are alike and often different people get different things out of the game. However, I would say that someone who does have a bit of public 'character' contributes to the community in a way that the quiet hard worker doesn't, if only to provide an enemy for people to feel hostile towards.

On the other side of the coin lies something like Revolt. Due to the links and advertisements offered on their behalf by PA crew back in Round 6, Revolt was widely known - and that in turn was reflected by a rather large irc channel. However, I don't think that anyone would credit Revolt with achieving anything.

If everyone who played R5 (it was R5, right?) remembers Revolt (though I don't suppose everyone does) then it most definitely achieved something. It didn't succeed in PA terms, but it made an impact. I can't really see why you would want to disparage Revolt tbh. It was widely known, and the people running it made a lot of effort to make it that way. Therefore neither the PR value or the hard work value can be criticised - Revolt is a perfect example of something PA could do with having more of.

So if sn0w is of the belief that Sid is not a famous PA player, that is more a statement of how little his name has been used around Planetarion in the past few rounds than a statement of whether or not Sid has played a fundamental role in Planetarion. In sn0w's defense - even rounds 1-4 saw his name as not a very common one. Back then, the universe was divided into two - the professional players in the lower clusters, and the casual, but numerous, players in the higher ones. The casual players dealt regularly with alliances such as L2K/MI and Virus (yes, Virus used to be a n00b alliance as well). So even though the game was being defined by the professionals, and the commanders such as Sid, the majority of the universe was not concerned with that. Hell, in one round, Game was bigger than my entire cluster - do you honestly think that we honestly cared about who he was or what he did? All that mattered was whether we could defend ourselves against some other nexbies way out in the middle of nowhere.

I think sn0w was probably either just trolling or displaying a personal dislike of Sid by claiming that nobody cares about who he is. Anyone who started in r3 (like me) would certainly have known who Sid is from even the briefest perusals of the Alliances forum in those days. Of course, back then there did seem to be a lot more 'characters' of interest in the game than now, though perhaps that was just a newbie's perspective.

I disagree that newbies didn't care about what was going on in the lower clusters too. Since PA is a community game, a lot of the fun comes from interacting with other people and seeing their views on things. Just as a fan of a lower-league football team is likely to be aware of the goings-on at the top clubs, higher-cluster players could certainly be aware of what was going on with the top players and alliances. R3 holds lots of memories for me - the RB deletions, the Wolfpack split etc., none of which I was personally involved in at all. But that's the beauty of a community-based game, it creates stories for everyone to appreciate even if they are not personally involved.

My final words on the matter are just something to think about. If you ask most people if they know of Henry Kissinger, how many do you think will have even heard the name? Of those, how many do you think will be able to list even one of his accomplishments? There is no objective standard to gauge fame by, as those with fame are constantly changing with time - and in Planetarion, a couple of rounds can be a long period of time.

Kissinger is a bad example. Try Napoleon, Hitler or Julius Caesar - most people should be familiar with their achievements.

One thing that annoys me about the current generation of PA players, especially HCs, is the apparent lack of 'flair' or 'style'. There seem to be a lot of people who doubtless work hard, but seem rather cut off from the community. Sure, if you're part of their circle of friends then you will be familiar with that person's achievements, but to the wider community the name probably means nothing. Contrast this with r3, when many of the major names in the top alliances were well-known people within the community - I could probably name the r3 Legion HC, for example, and I was a newbie then. I may be a bit of a PA geek, but I remember these things very clearly even 2 years on, probably more so than I remember people from later rounds.

I know that hard work for an alliance is the most important thing any HC can do, but I do think that the general decline of the community has not been aided by the apparent increase in the number of alliance leaders who don't seem to want to engage with the community. I really feel that this takes something away from the game .

I wish I had copies of some of the old r3 threads, but I really do seem to remember much more light-hearted banter and discussion between the 'major' figures of the community. Nowadays top players and alliance leaders seem to prefer to keep themselves to themselves, which does detract from the game and will probably result in those people being rather forgotten by the people that don't know them well.

[hook]

Originally posted by ComradeRob
One thing that annoys me about the current generation of PA players, especially HCs, is the apparent lack of 'flair' or 'style'. There seem to be a lot of people who doubtless work hard, but seem rather cut off from the community. Sure, if you're part of their circle of friends then you will be familiar with that person's achievements, but to the wider community the name probably means nothing. Contrast this with r3, when many of the major names in the top alliances were well-known people within the community - I could probably name the r3 Legion HC, for example, and I was a newbie then. I may be a bit of a PA geek, but I remember these things very clearly even 2 years on, probably more so than I remember people from later rounds.

Well maybe one of the problems IS this glorious past of some of the people around here. While we're at it, let's take Sid or the R3 Legion HC's as example. That round was utterly dominated by Fury and Legion, needless to say they did a superb job together. That kind of dominance doesn't happen nowaday anymore (let's not debate this for once shall we?). Ofcourse this isn't a bad thing, and probably has a lot to do with the average player getting a bit better and more skilled aswell. Point is though, that's it's very hard to seek publicity when being a 'new-time'-HC simply due to whatever you accomplish being somewhat in the shadows of what others have done before you, and have shown before what was possible. And on the other hand it's more easy to gain that respect for your achievements from your members (if you're in a new-time alliance aswell that is, otherwise it's also hard).

To illustrate this personally. I joined hirr in R5. We tried and tried, I spent endless hours online with the rest of the Officers/HC's working and working, with only one goal: make us as strong again as we were in R4. To be perfectly honest: In my eyes, we Never achieved that. It was very hard admitting that from times to times. But indeed, you're in the shadows of some people that have done things WAY more remarkable than you're capable off before you achieved what you've achieved right now.

What I'm saying is that for some people it might be hard to engage in the community, being HC of an alliance and representing that alliance fully, so that others get to know them when their alliance accomplishes something nice, mainly because of what we've seen in the past and what incredible things have happened so far.

Oh, and personally, I know quite some people/HC's probably none of you have heard of since they always laid low, who might've actually in comparison achieved way greater things than most would guess. But that's the problem, people don't really look in comparisons here.

Forgive me any crappy linguistic sentences or any other senseless stuff, It's early in the morning here and I got the flu

Especially the early rounds - people like Sid were making huge impacts on the game, but going totally un-noticed. I knew people in my galaxy who didn't even know what alliances were. All they cared about was that they had enemy ships in-coming.

They didn't care who it was.

Perhaps it is wrong to say that there are famous and influential people in PA, but that there are players who take part in the community, and those who do not?

[Scorpio]

Originally posted by N0VA
(yes, Virus used to be a n00b alliance as well)

that's not true

[WipeOut]

As mentioned before, I think it is impossible to gain only part of the glory a person like Sid has attained in the past. Simply because, allthough he left, friends of him, people that know him, will always believe he has been better than that Joe Newbie who might even do a better job at that time.

Pa misses fresh blood, people unaware of people's past achievements, virgins to pa... Only when the majority is open for new people and their accomplishments, it will be possible for these people to 'shine' like Sid did.

I do strongly agree with Cochese though, that none of us should ever forget about what has happened in the past, as I think it is an important part of Planetarion as whole, but maybe they should stop gloryfying it by threads seen on PD and AD recently.
And hence open up the chance for new 'Sid's' to stand up.

[MelAn]

Originally posted by WipeOut
[...] Joe Newbie [...]

Sry i heard about "Joe Newbi" 4 times last 2 days & it still brings a bright smile on my face...


OK continue...

[hinch]

theres also a hand full of people who work behind thescenes on pa or did do from r2 till t6 some people you prolly know from other efforts in game but theres at least 2 who are hardly known to the players and as such never get any thanks however without them (and vish) pa would never have recovered to cope with the load and the (DoS) attacks on it in round 4

[G.K Zhukov]

Some of the best players in PA's history is either long forgotten, or have never seeked public glory for themself.

[tyriel]

Originally posted by Garshaw
Especially the early rounds - people like Sid were making huge impacts on the game, but going totally un-noticed. I knew people in my galaxy who didn't even know what alliances were. All they cared about was that they had enemy ships in-coming.

They didn't care who it was.

Perhaps it is wrong to say that there are famous and influential people in PA, but that there are players who take part in the community, and those who do not?

the community is so small now the community is the players.

in time of yore a you could win or do very well in a round without treading on the toes of your peers in the community around you. to win a war there must unfortunately be casualties. perhaps the community attitude would drastically change (improve) with community growth.

as a n00b in r3 i saw the political machinations of PA and growth of the biggest planets without being affected by it.

i could respect Sid for the work he put in, the successes he controlled without fear those would directly hit me. its hard to admire an alliances leaders when for them to win it means yours must lose. that and you get jaded and cynical and understand whats actually being done.

[N0VA]

Originally posted by ComradeRob
I don't think this is really a perfect illustration of your point. Zhil is a hard worker who put a lot of effort into his alliance, and cared very deeply about it. He had a flair for the dramatic, which is why he is well known, but it should not be assumed that this means he did not work hard too. Dravvin also worked hard, taking part in many important PA wars as a BC, but perhaps was not as much of a public figure.

The reason that it is difficult for those who frequent alliance discussions to fully understand this point is because we do affix the term famous to players of Dravvin's and Zhil's calibre. The point is that they did the majority of their work behind the scenes - not necessarily on the major battles that mark the beginnings or endings of wars, but on the nightly routines that keep a side fighting, or winning. From this standpoint then, the majority of players in the game would not know who they are - so despite the impact they did have, they are not truly famous.

If everyone who played R5 (it was R5, right?) remembers Revolt (though I don't suppose everyone does) then it most definitely achieved something. It didn't succeed in PA terms, but it made an impact. I can't really see why you would want to disparage Revolt tbh. It was widely known, and the people running it made a lot of effort to make it that way. Therefore neither the PR value or the hard work value can be criticised - Revolt is a perfect example of something PA could do with having more of.

It was not my aim to disparage Revolt, and I apologize if anyone involved with it took it as such. My goal with that example was to illustrate a movement that had no real impact upon the game - their target maintained his position, the alliance they hit still held its ground, and when the attack was over, everything returned to as it was prior to it. A way that it can be argued that Revolt did impact Planetarion would be to suggest that it gave players hope that despite being crushed for the duration of the round, they could still stand together and influence the round. However, I find that argument to be a stretch, as the launch was always billed as a "your ships are going to be deleted in a couple days anyways, so why not click launch?" sort of action. Regardless of how you slice it, Revolt was heavily advertised, well known throughout the universe due to the in game links, and rather frequently discussed (even if largely done so as joke banners published by Legion). Because of this, I would say that Revolt was famous, but had no real impact upon the round - and hence works fine as an example.

Anyone who started in r3 (like me) would certainly have known who Sid is from even the briefest perusals of the Alliances forum in those days. Of course, back then there did seem to be a lot more 'characters' of interest in the game than now, though perhaps that was just a newbie's perspective.

Again, I think you are generalizing - just because you perused the Alliance forums in the early rounds does not mean that the majority of players did so. As a mid-cluster galactic commander in round three, I would contend that a large portion of the pa community did not even use IRC. Maybe three people in my galaxy did, and maybe another fifty or so in the cluster. As for knowledge of Synthetic Sid - I did learn who he was in Round three, but only because the HC of TE organized an attack on his galaxy/planet. When I asked who the target was, and was told by Plantman that it was Synthetic Sid, he had to explain to me that Sid was HC of Fury, and give me a brief history lesson on what Fury was. This is in round three mind you, and I had been playing since round one. So I find it rather plausible that in the sizable universes of the early rounds, that a decent percentage of players did not follow alliance politics.

I disagree that newbies didn't care about what was going on in the lower clusters too. Since PA is a community game, a lot of the fun comes from interacting with other people and seeing their views on things. Just as a fan of a lower-league football team is likely to be aware of the goings-on at the top clubs, higher-cluster players could certainly be aware of what was going on with the top players and alliances. R3 holds lots of memories for me - the RB deletions, the Wolfpack split etc., none of which I was personally involved in at all. But that's the beauty of a community-based game, it creates stories for everyone to appreciate even if they are not personally involved.

It would be erroneous of me to suggest that the very nature of a person being in a higher cluster and thus small to not care about what was going on above. But I do think that the overall interest in the outcome of the round was less of a priority. Back then, I did not even think in terms of winning and losing existing within Planetarion, because the people in the top 100 were exponentially larger than me, and often times exponentially larger than my galaxy. It was like there were multiple games going on within Planetarion. Furthermore, there are elements such as Civil Wars and in-Cluster Wars that plagued the higher clusters, and made a focus on the universe overall of a lower priority. In recent rounds, we take it as a given that a galaxy will try to unify - if you cannot rely upon your galaxy, then there is no hope for your success in the round. Back then though, there were frequent clashes about who would be the Commander, which player had the largest friends - resulting in much more immediate concerns than which person 80 times your size was bigger than the other people only 60 times your size.

Kissinger is a bad example. Try Napoleon, Hitler or Julius Caesar - most people should be familiar with their achievements.

I apologize if I did not clarify this, but it is for that reason that I did select Kissinger. Most people are not familiar with his achievements, suggesting that he is not that famous a person. However, he had tremendous impact upon American Foreign Policy, as well as the outcomes of significant events in global history. Just because he does not have an easily recognized name, does not mean that he had no impact. Similarly, just because he had a good deal of impact, does not mean he has an easily recognized name.

[Knight Theamion]

notice me notice me notice me

[Teh_Necro]

In every game i played, theres always been people too look up too, those who played Starcraft would reconise the names of people like XDS~Grrrr and Manyard. Both "Famous" in the starcraft community.

They got there by winning tournaments, having interviews on web sites, having replays of them shown, but most importantly by word of mouth reputation.

There impact on Starcraft was little too none if i am honest, yet their fame was notorious.

Point made?

-Necro

[K-W]

Kissenger is a jackass. But that is not terribly important to this thread

[Sn0w]

Originally posted by ComradeRob
I think sn0w was probably either just trolling or displaying a personal dislike of Sid by claiming that nobody cares about who he is.

nope. you could have seen it that way. but thats far from true. i admire what he's done in the past for this game.

[AlbinoSquirrel]

Originally posted by Scorpio
that's not true

yeah, the "used to be" part isn't true

HAR HAR HAR

[Sn0w]

Originally posted by Knight Theamion
notice me notice me notice me

/me notices theam :/

[logbat]

Originally posted by Scorpio
that's not true

hehe deep down you mean virus is still an bad alliance.

But there have been many changes in virus lately,they have always had an great community and they never gave up,just like xanadu in r5.

Those that attacked virus ppl last round that had over 400 +/- roids was counterd,so in general virus have changed since they was an little brother for fury.

[QazokRouge5]

Noone in this community likes me.

Noone in this community will care when I leave.

Noone in this community will remember me when I leave.

I havent contributed to this game.

This does not bother me one bit.

[Norseman]

Originally posted by N0VA

Again, I think you are generalizing - just because you perused the Alliance forums in the early rounds does not mean that the majority of players did so. As a mid-cluster galactic commander in round three, I would contend that a large portion of the pa community did not even use IRC. Maybe three people in my galaxy did, and maybe another fifty or so in the cluster. As for knowledge of Synthetic Sid - I did learn who he was in Round three, but only because the HC of TE organized an attack on his galaxy/planet. When I asked who the target was, and was told by Plantman that it was Synthetic Sid, he had to explain to me that Sid was HC of Fury, and give me a brief history lesson on what Fury was. This is in round three mind you, and I had been playing since round one. So I find it rather plausible that in the sizable universes of the early rounds, that a decent percentage of players did not follow alliance politics.
[/b]

if so.. why did Army of Blood in r3 arise from nowhere?

Organized by a man hardly known - Conscious - contained numerous players from all over the universe, mostly cluster100> - and the General Discussion forum were infact used actively as the one and only arena to gather new ppl & spread propaganda

Not to forget; in contrast to Revolt.... the attack made by AoB did make a contribution (small, sure.. but still) in the "war" lead by the dying RB against the allmighty legion/fury

[fiddler123b]

Originally posted by Norseman
if so.. why did Army of Blood in r3 arise from nowhere?

Organized by a man hardly known - Conscious - contained numerous players from all over the universe, mostly cluster100> - and the General Discussion forum were infact used actively as the one and only arena to gather new ppl & spread propaganda

Not to forget; in contrast to Revolt.... the attack made by AoB did make a contribution (small, sure.. but still) in the "war" lead by the dying RB against the allmighty legion/fury

for details, you could ask comraderob, conscious was not much more than someone who could post very nice stuff.

[rnd|One]

Originally posted by G.K Zhukov
Some of the best players in PA's history is either long forgotten, or have never seeked public glory for themself.

[Norseman]

Originally posted by fiddler123b
for details, you could ask comraderob, conscious was not much more than someone who could post very nice stuff.

which was the key to the whole thing; make ppl believe it were possible

(I should have used the word fronted, not organized.. as he were hardly ever around and stuff)

[Scorpio]

Originally posted by logbat
hehe deep down you mean virus is still an bad alliance.

But there have been many changes in virus lately,they have always had an great community and they never gave up,just like xanadu in r5.

Those that attacked virus ppl last round that had over 400 +/- roids was counterd,so in general virus have changed since they was an little brother for fury.

I mean, in the first full round of Virus, ie. round 3, upto halfway the round we had 2 top10 planets and various top100 planets. In a round dominated by Fury/Legion that wasn't too bad. It's just something alot of people don't know, or perhaps don't want to know.
We had ace players.

[CharlieB]

/me looks at scorpio

[Zh|l]

Originally posted by logbat
hehe deep down you mean virus is still an bad alliance.

But there have been many changes in virus lately,they have always had an great community and they never gave up,just like xanadu in r5.

Those that attacked virus ppl last round that had over 400 +/- roids was counterd,so in general virus have changed since they was an little brother for fury.

Mr Ignorant strikes again!

PS: Xanadu did the best they could from r5, and unlike ViruS became a superpower.

PSS: ViruS have surely changed, whether its for the better who knows. They were always seen to ride upon Fury's success (and the rest of its allies). ViruS from my perspective seem to dislike this part of their history as it still envisions them as slaves to Fury.

[Grind]

you people are such nerds.

does it really matter if you are considered "famous" on an internet browser based game?

*laughs*

[AlbinoSquirrel]

Originally posted by Grind
you people are such nerds.

does it really matter if you are considered "famous" on an internet browser based game?

*laughs*

Does it really matter to you if they care? Does it really matter if you flame and troll and prattle around like a little kid?

*laughs*

You're just as bad as those you mock. Also, it shows signs of insecurity with your own 'position'. Is there something you'd like to talk about?

[N0VA]

Originally posted by Grind
you people are such nerds.

does it really matter if you are considered "famous" on an internet browser based game?

*laughs*

Alby's response to this statement of ignorance was a lot more amusing than this is going to be - as all I will do is try to seek some form of an intelligent question there, and answer it.

The ideas contained within this thread are not ego inflating statements about what we have brought to this game, or cases for why any of us should be considered famous. Instead, we have a discussion going about the necessary and sufficient conditions of fame. To clarify: a necessary condition is one that needs to be present in order for a concept to be what it is, a sufficient condition is one that, if present, is all that is needed to recognize what the condition is. For example, an air temperature of below freezing is necessary for snow to fall, but it is not sufficient, as you can have temperatures below freezing without snow falling.

So if you are still with me, the point of this discussion then is whether elements such as name recognition (past and or present), impact upon the game, etc are necessary and or sufficient conditions for defining fame.

Now, assuming you had a point to your statement, it would be one of "what, if anything, is the purpose of discussing fame in Planetarion - it is just a game that all of us will eventually stop caring about?" (see, doesn't something like that sound a lot better without the mindless insults and emoticons?) To answer your question, I would begin by saying that it is a very important question to ask, and requires an answer of multiple parts.

First of all, philosophical discussions such as what constitutes fame are rarely discussed in purely syntactic terms. Syntactic terms are essentially those devoid of context, statements that appeal to intellect and reasoning alone. Instead, discussions of these natures use examples, analogies, life experiences, etc, to help clarify lofty concepts. At that level then, does it matter if we are discussing fame in terms of historical figures, tv shows, planetarion players, or even floozywigs and flunkydunks?

I would also contend that a discussion of fame in Planetarion is an important one to carry on, as whether you like it or not, Planetarion is more than just a game, it is a community as well - and for some people, a way of life. Because of this, elements beyond tactics, rules, and scores become important. As Planetarion is a community, it is also valid to examine social trends: how the players interact with one another, either on individual bases, or in alliances.

Finally, discussions of these sorts are actually enjoyable to some people. Not everyone enjoys coming to these boards to engage in slander fests, flame wars, and contests to see who knows the most misspelled words.

At this point, I will ask you if you would like to join in the discussion.

[Teh_Necro]

Originally posted by Dark_Mage
I played SC for ages and dont recgonise either of these players. Were they BW only or something? The players that I considered were most famous in SC were The_Sacred_One (yes I know he sucked) and maybe JimKeeley or someone like Global`Overide.

[EDIT] Obviously The_Marine and Boxor were famous as well just not in my little circle.

Heh... if you've never heard of Manyard and XDS~Grrrr then you were probably playing 7 vs 1 comps all your entire sc career.

Actually no to be fair this was only during the time i played starcraft (about 1 and 1/2 too 2 years ago) so perhaps our reclection is out of sync.

I seem too remeber The_Marine in the cloud ladder and i've seen the odd replay of The_Scared_One.

I was Soul-Kane[Tls] back in those days, well for the cloud ladder at least

-Necro

[Grind]

you people also take things waaaaaay to seriously.

[Psi_K]

I'm famous, people hate me
GO ME GO !!!!!!!!!

[WildCardz]

Originally posted by N0VA
I would have much rather enclosed this remark in one of the threads that pertained to the topic, but I rarely read the boards, and both were created (and closed) between this visit and my last. Furthermore, I won't offer the links to the closed threads, as I do not want this to become another source of flames.

It is my belief that there is a large distinction between fame and impact in Planetarion. Yes, I would put Sid under both of these categories, but I can understand why some people would not, and I find all the criticisms of them to be inadequate.

Fame solely deals with the notions of reputation, recognition by the public, etc. A word derived from it is infamy - which generally alludes to something that is well known, but in a bad context. Neither recognition nor reputation necessitate impact upon the game, and the opposite is also true.

A couple of examples of this are Dravvin and Zhil. Dravvin was not well known until near the end of her career, and even then, she was known primarily by people of importance, outside of her friends. However, she was a battle commander in a lot of important alliances and wars, and inevitably had an impact upon how Planetarion was played out. Similarly, Zhil is not well known outside of Alliance Discussions, even though his impacts upon the game due to Fury and Wrath are rather significant.

On the other side of the coin lies something like Revolt. Due to the links and advertisements offered on their behalf by PA crew back in Round 6, Revolt was widely known - and that in turn was reflected by a rather large irc channel. However, I don't think that anyone would credit Revolt with achieving anything.

So if sn0w is of the belief that Sid is not a famous PA player, that is more a statement of how little his name has been used around Planetarion in the past few rounds than a statement of whether or not Sid has played a fundamental role in Planetarion. In sn0w's defense - even rounds 1-4 saw his name as not a very common one. Back then, the universe was divided into two - the professional players in the lower clusters, and the casual, but numerous, players in the higher ones. The casual players dealt regularly with alliances such as L2K/MI and Virus (yes, Virus used to be a n00b alliance as well). So even though the game was being defined by the professionals, and the commanders such as Sid, the majority of the universe was not concerned with that. Hell, in one round, Game was bigger than my entire cluster - do you honestly think that we honestly cared about who he was or what he did? All that mattered was whether we could defend ourselves against some other nexbies way out in the middle of nowhere.

My final words on the matter are just something to think about. If you ask most people if they know of Henry Kissinger, how many do you think will have even heard the name? Of those, how many do you think will be able to list even one of his accomplishments? There is no objective standard to gauge fame by, as those with fame are constantly changing with time - and in Planetarion, a couple of rounds can be a long period of time.

I am yet again amazed with myself for being able to read another one of Nova's "posts" in its entirety.

However, I would rather be unknown than be famous for many of the things people are remembered for.

[Dravvin]

Originally posted by ComradeRob
Dravvin also worked hard, taking part in many important PA wars as a BC, but perhaps was not as much of a public figure.

I'm somewhat a shy person I guess...Wouldnt be good with public speaking, and I'm impressed ppl still mention me in posts

I prefered sticking with a "small circle" of ppl and working through those.

And I must be bored to be posting back here :/

[niwaie]

bad dravvin!

[hAl]

Originally posted by Dravvin
And I must be bored to be posting back here :/

If you get really bored you can always just signup...

[Dravvin]

Originally posted by hAl
If you get really bored you can always just signup...

no thanks

too many ppl logging into an online test has crashed teh system! lol

[Cryptic]

Originally posted by Norseman
if so.. why did Army of Blood in r3 arise from nowhere?

Organized by a man hardly known - Conscious - contained numerous players from all over the universe, mostly cluster100> - and the General Discussion forum were infact used actively as the one and only arena to gather new ppl & spread propaganda

Not to forget; in contrast to Revolt.... the attack made by AoB did make a contribution (small, sure.. but still) in the "war" lead by the dying RB against the allmighty legion/fury

I knew conscious as smelly Pete - he sat on the desk next to me at work ( does that count as a claim to fame ?)

[Zitos]

*whispers to mrs. parrot - the blackbull url diddnt work..*



any way (-:
good points here nova..
but, as grind said: not many people care for whom the most 'famous' one.. and real fame, comes through real achivments..

as benjamin franklin once wrote (said?)
"If you would not be forgotten, as soon as you are dead and rotten, either write things reading, or do things worth the writing.."

ta..

[Dravvin]

Originally posted by Zitos
*whispers to mrs. parrot - the blackbull url diddnt work..*

blame the person who was hosting it

takes effort for me to upload it and change the url...