pateam membership + alliances

[mist]

'rumour' on 'the grapevine' indicates that at some point in the not too distant future the pateam may have one or more positions vacant.

so, in a spirit of open enquiry, what qualifications and limits do you believe are required of a pateam member?

i'm particularly interested in people's views on the ability of someone who's in an alliance to join pateam in a position that would afford them no access to personal data - such as working on game development, for example. it seems that people now accept that people in alliances can work on stats, so this would tend to indicate that people in alliances can also work on the design of the game itself?

for a while now people seem to have been of the opinion that pateam need 'more of a clue' about the actual game and this seems about the only realistic way of getting it?

obviously, multi hunters and support staff who have access to tools that would benefit alliances would have to be independant, but these positions seem to require less intemate knowledge of the game and how it works.

thoughts?
-mist

[Bashar]

My thought is that if someone wants the job, they should immediately be disqualified from it.

[Bashar]

Just to clarify - my point is along the lines of, the problem in PA-team is not, and never has been, an association with alliances on any level. Whilst it provides an obvious and very justifiable barrier to access to any in-game information/tools, it is not the problem. The problem has always been that members of PA-Team have traditionally been more interested in the status and priveleges provided by the positions rather than the responsibilities they required.

[Zeus]

oooooooohhh, difficult one to explain.

[NEWSBOT3]

The basic problem (imo) is not really alliance membership etc, it's that you need people willing to commit 6-12 hours a day of their time, for free, and since most people involved in the community don't have that time free due to jobs etc, it's daft to even recruit pateam from the community.

What they should (and never will, because jolt don't want to spend the money) be, is 2-3 full time jobs, that involve being in an office 9-5 , so that it gets done properly, not as a bunch of amateurs doing it in their spare time from home.

If you pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

[Bashar]

Originally Posted by NEWSBOT3

The basic problem (imo) is not really alliance membership etc, it's that you need people willing to commit 6-12 hours a day of their time

I am not convinced with this. The only job really that requires that sort of activity level would be support. If you are on the developing side, I am sure the timings can be a lot more flexible.

[Kal]

it is fairly obvious that eventually people in PATeam will retire - its hard work and requires a lot of time investment, with the smaller playerbase its also harder to find obvious new recruits to do the work, that said there are some promising people who are allready putting a lot of time into PA. I don;t think loosing people from the support or other subsidiary areas are a major problem - we currently have one of the largest support and multihunter staff that we have had for a while. THe problem imo as allways is development resources, however things look promising on that front as well, we will soon be getting some additional part time coding resources from jolt until they can find a permanent addition to their staff who can work on pa in a fuller capacity (there is a job ad on jolt's site if anyone is interested.)

Having said all that - we have a rule that to be in PATeam u must be allianceless and sign an NDA (the NDA also applies to MH people with high level admin access), however a lot of our staff are not covered by theese restrictions - forums mods, channel ops, support staff (without admin), clumn writers etc. So imo the pa staff and PATeam is hardly about to fall apart.

Yes there are some people due to retire/leave temporaily - theese are people who either have exams coming up, jobs are taking up to much time etc - they are good people and they will be missed, hopefully the ones with exams will return afterwards, but there are potential replacements. One of the kley thign sabout replacements though is on the whole they should come from within existing teams - for example - say the forums admin retired it would be sensible to replace him with an experiance forums moderator - as that creates continuity within the teams among other things - having said that there are current players within the community whou could be snapped up if they decided to stop playing.

In responce about the activity requirements, on the whole its a quesiton of the individual jobs - I tend to put in long hours and let uni work suffer to an extent becuase my job requires that level of commitment, other jobs do not. And development is certainly done on a flexible basis.

Sorry about the chaotic nature of my post, but I think I covered everything

[Brimstone]

Here's my 2 pence on the matter:

1) Should be known within the community to some extent (Not "PA celebs" as has come with some ppl, who would do it just for attention). PAteam are people looked up to, and need to be recognisable and approachable. "Celebs" should be avoided where possible, as they are either after the power that comes with the position, or i find are generally not the easiest ppl to approach.

2) Person should have experience of alliances, preferably above "general member / pe0n". How can you have someone to help with a game without knowing how the core of the game works? This is linked to the first point, in that if you dont have any alliance experience, then you most likely aren't well known etc etc.

3)Has to be willing to largely give up actually playing. The game itself takes up far to much time to play seriously and take on such a large role in PAteam. This would largely rule out people actively being in an alliance, except on a limited basis, which would likely be difficult still (trying to juggle a life, a game, an alliance and a community at once sounds like a fast track to an early grave).

4) Be able to speak/type legible english (you'd be surprised...)

5) Experience of more than 2 or 3 rounds preferable, also linking to the first point.

6) And probably most important. Get on, and be known by the existing team members. Teams dont work well if one (or more) person is hated by everyone else.

OK, so i spent a little more than 2 pence there, and most likely made sure no-one would ever even remotely consider me for such a position for chatting so much rubbish. What a shame.

Brimstone

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Brimstone

4) Be able to speak/type legible english (you'd be surprised...)

I can if I want to!

[JC]

First and foremost gthey have to be active. You'ld be surprised at how many PA team members over the years have been inactive sods that sit on their arses doing nothing but quite happily hold onto the title of PA team member. One of the problems is that nobody really gets sacked unless they break a rule (lo Prince). If there was more pressure on each person to perform things might get done quicker and more efficiently but thats probably another discussion for a different thread.

You dont want a yes (wo)man. Some people seem quite happy to sit and never come up with a counter argument within #pateam or the pa team boards, which sometimes means shit ideas get put into action because nobody voiced any concerns. On the other hand you dont want childish people that throw their toys out of the pram as soon as someone complains about their idea.

As people have said earlier someone with PA experience would be great. You'ld be surprised when it comes round to making the stats how few PA team members have any idea about it. Someone who can code well is also pretty damn useful.

[Bashar]

JC, that is pretty much the point I was making, or trying to make (the first point), and I feel that is the single most major issue to PA-Team over the years. And as for your point on the stats, I think that, after last round, you'd actually find that nobody is surprised by that.

[Kal]

next round stats arn't being done by PATeam on the whole

[Bashar]

Thank god for that. Best news I have heard in a long time.

[mist]

i was unaware that pateam membership requires signing an nda by default. when'd that come in?

interesting to note that when spinner + co were in charge noone felt ndas were neccessary. are people in pateam less trustworthy nowadays?

[SimbaX]

Originally Posted by mist

i was unaware that pateam membership requires signing an nda by default. when'd that come in?

interesting to note that when spinner + co were in charge noone felt ndas were neccessary. are people in pateam less trustworthy nowadays?

probably just a bit more professional.

[Kal]

Originally Posted by SimbaX

probably just a bit more professional.

thats basically it yes, it came in towards the end of last year

[Rc mayhem]

I personally think that just looking at the ppl you know already to be pa team is not the best idea. There are quite often more willing and able ppl out there than those that talk in #planetarion or write 100 posts a day on the forum about not much. Also by choosing only from ppl who are currently a part of the "PA system" you dont get fresh blood in and so you dont get the same level of enthusiasm or ideas as you would with an unknown player. Ofc the problem with unknowns is that they are unknown, however I feel interviews or even a trial week would sort this out. I personally believe (and before anyone shouts n00b I have been playing none stop since round 4) that PA team are a very exclusive "ingroup" who like their own and the leaders of top alliances (not always the best ppl to go to imo as HCs, and no offence intended, have to be atleast slightly self centered and egotistic as otherwise they wouldnt be HC) who refuse help from anyone on the outside who they dont know straight away.

Maybe I am just a sinical bastard (most likely) or maybe someone else will agree with at least some of that

Cm

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Rc mayhem

I personally think that just looking at the ppl you know already to be pa team is not the best idea. There are quite often more willing and able ppl out there than those that talk in #planetarion or write 100 posts a day on the forum about not much. Also by choosing only from ppl who are currently a part of the "PA system" you dont get fresh blood in and so you dont get the same level of enthusiasm or ideas as you would with an unknown player. Ofc the problem with unknowns is that they are unknown, however I feel interviews or even a trial week would sort this out. I personally believe (and before anyone shouts n00b I have been playing none stop since round 4) that PA team are a very exclusive "ingroup" who like their own and the leaders of top alliances (not always the best ppl to go to imo as HCs, and no offence intended, have to be atleast slightly self centered and egotistic as otherwise they wouldnt be HC) who refuse help from anyone on the outside who they dont know straight away.

Maybe I am just a sinical bastard (most likely) or maybe someone else will agree with at least some of that

Cm

u r right to an extent, its allways easiest to look to the people u know or can see - but how do u get to know and trust people if u can;t see them in the first place. Also remember this isn;t just about ideas to improve the game, a lot of the positions are admin jobs or management jobs.

This is how I got into PATeam -

I was a succesful player and arguably a good alliance person on the military front, but I wanted to do more for PA, so I applied ot join the support team - I did not know anyone on the support team at the time, I got a trial and I did well due to my knowledge of the game. I stayed there for a while while carrying on playing then I decided I didn;t want to do that anymore and wanted to hlep more, so I applied to be a mulihunter, eventually that happened and I joined PATeam. Now I do somethign completely different within PATeam - the entire journey to PATeam took maybe 2 rounds, so if people show initiative and a willingness to help pa then they can.

[Blixxard]

Pateam are chosen by divine right.

[Rc mayhem]

Originally Posted by Kal

u r right to an extent, its allways easiest to look to the people u know or can see - but how do u get to know and trust people if u can;t see them in the first place. Also remember this isn;t just about ideas to improve the game, a lot of the positions are admin jobs or management jobs.

I realise this but new blood still gives a little energy to PAteam and also makes them seem more accessable to the rest of the players and not "that strange group who think they know best for the game but dont have a clue"

As I said before (I think i did anyway, cba to go back and reread), I believe the best way to get new members is to continue as you do now, recruiting ppl who you know, but also every so often do an application form for the lower "entry" jobs and stick a link and reason to it somewhere easy for all to see. Then pick the best of the applicants on ability, knowledge of the game and enthusiasm, ensuring that you dont still pick the ppl you know anyway but by a longer method. This is how I got the same job in the PA newsletter twice, interviewer. well first time was helped by it been almost the Fcrew Newsletter... but still. Where appropriate test out the candidates on a couple of simple common problems/tasks but dont forget that enthusiastic ppl will always be happy to learn if taught.

Its not the easiest of things to do but I believe it will improve PAteam, both image and performance.

[demiGOD]

i agree with mist though, pa team should be actively playing and linked to (other, and not Pa Team)alliances also to have that extreme sense of awareness of the game - besides, Pa team is the prime mediator, community advisers and that link between jolt and everybody else - and with Pa team deeply involved with the game is good thing in the long run

[Phil^]

having pateam affiliated strongly with any alliance draws claims of bias. thats why pateam and alliances are seperated. You cant be in pateam if you`re in an alliance

[mist]

in the same way that sid doing the stats drew claims of bias, yet everyone now acknowledges that they were pretty decent and he'd be a good choice to do them again?

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by mist

in the same way that sid doing the stats drew claims of bias, yet everyone now acknowledges that they were pretty decent and he'd be a good choice to do them again?

I think that's completely different, tbh. Once the stats were done, everyone could see them and work with them. Some people just didn't like how there were a large amount of terrans going around killing people in the beta, so everyone thought that was the best race for the round, and some people (including quite a few 1up) went xan to take advantage of this, and everyone found that it was quite hard to defend against.
PA Team, if connected to one or two alliances far more strongly than others, would be accused of listening to them more than any other alliances, which would give said alliances an unfair advantage into knowing what's going on and the greater amount of input into ideas.
However, as it stands, there's a whole group of alliance representatives and a in a channel with the pa team (as well as a forum) purely so that they don't feel out of contact with the game, and so they're not forced to rely on more personal links. If the PA Team are being accused of being out of touch with the game, surely to fix that it'd be easy just to increase communication levels through these wavelengths?

[Rc mayhem]

If you want to be conected to the playerbase remember that not all the players are in the top 5 alliances, just because your in a smaller alliance shouldnt mean you arent PAteam matterial.

[Kal]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

I think that's completely different, tbh. Once the stats were done, everyone could see them and work with them. Some people just didn't like how there were a large amount of terrans going around killing people in the beta, so everyone thought that was the best race for the round, and some people (including quite a few 1up) went xan to take advantage of this, and everyone found that it was quite hard to defend against.
PA Team, if connected to one or two alliances far more strongly than others, would be accused of listening to them more than any other alliances, which would give said alliances an unfair advantage into knowing what's going on and the greater amount of input into ideas.
However, as it stands, there's a whole group of alliance representatives and a in a channel with the pa team (as well as a forum) purely so that they don't feel out of contact with the game, and so they're not forced to rely on more personal links. If the PA Team are being accused of being out of touch with the game, surely to fix that it'd be easy just to increase communication levels through these wavelengths?

if we were in alliances i think it would be inevitable that we would want to help our alliances - sure we woudln;t do admin abuse, but we may end up seeing potenital game changes that would benefit our alliance rather than seeing the overall picture - having said that if we were equally spread between alliances of all levels it might work - but then there would be accusations of admin abuse and bias anyway so I just don;t see how it could work

[Zo0f]

I think mist has hit the nail on the head. While Sid doing stats drew claims of bias it is obvious to most people they were very good stats, the best since PaX at least.

I for one (like with Sid doing the stats) would rather someone who could do the job very well did the job, instead of someone unbias but probably less capable.

[mist]

Originally Posted by Appocomaster

I think that's completely different, tbh. Once the stats were done, everyone could see them and work with them.

i was meaning that they could do jobs such as specification/design - things that pa doesn't do at the moment that would probably be useful. as veryone will get to see the game when they play it, these would seem to be exactly like stats

[Chika]

Originally Posted by mist

i was meaning that they could do jobs such as specification/design - things that pa doesn't do at the moment that would probably be useful. as veryone will get to see the game when they play it, these would seem to be exactly like stats

I really don't think your thread was about stats, or any PA players. maybe you should stick to topic.
should I be a mod?
no

[I am Idler]

Well... in my period as a PACrew member I had access to close planets and forum admin access at the same time as being Exec in Fury.

(as went for most others who were representing other alliances while in the crew)

And funnily enough there wasnt any big fuss over it, but now that p2p is a reality the people with access to peoples accounts and those with access to desiging game stats really need to be kept in 2 separate blocks.

imo. the best way to go about it is to have people with a good ammount of experience and knowhow help (not have a definitive say) to design the games stats and other elements that will ultimately lead to improve planetarion as a whole.

On the other side there is the multihunters that for obvious reasons cant have any affiliations with other alliances, although this seems to be a bit impossible, as we are infact a tight community where most knows who everybody "central" is.

[Assassin]

Originally Posted by Kal

I can if I want to!

I find that hard to beleive

And i think basically to the alliances issue itn would one be to biased which most people have all mentioned. there used to be rumours of VtS in rounds 3-5 having sumone on the inside using tools which enabled them to have multi accounts, me being in VTS tbh i didnt see anything of the sort. But also the second issue would be it wud be to time consuming. As Kal pointed out you cant play activtly in an allie, play PA and run a game at the same time plus with real life. So in all its better for PA team to stay alliancesless.

[wakey]

Originally Posted by Brimstone

1) Should be known within the community to some extent (Not "PA celebs" as has come with some ppl, who would do it just for attention). PAteam are people looked up to, and need to be recognisable and approachable. "Celebs" should be avoided where possible, as they are either after the power that comes with the position, or i find are generally not the easiest ppl to approach.

2) Person should have experience of alliances, preferably above "general member / pe0n". How can you have someone to help with a game without knowing how the core of the game works? This is linked to the first point, in that if you dont have any alliance experience, then you most likely aren't well known etc etc.

Most of PATeam as it is now and has been in the past have fulfilled this critera of yours but we can count more 'bad' apples from this group than 'good'. When you have ties to the game you have more of a reason to abuse the situation. The most obvious abuse is the 'leaking' of info to 'friends' to show of or make yourself more popular which has always been a problem. When your a mod and you find out something major thats about to errupt which your have to deal with it or even that Jolt are asking PAteam to sack you for a post they didnt like from a Friend of a Friend of a Friend of a PATeam member then theres clear signs that all isnt how it should be and hints theres more serious 'curuption' going on.

An unknown or even a none PA player is simply not a bad thing for this game, they have less ties and a fresh perspective. OFC you can do what Jolts done and go too far where the Likes of Geoff are so far removed from the game that any meddling he does in the game and its running just alienates the games community. Whats probally needed is some people who are removed to the community but whom are willing to have a pressence on things like the forums so they arent seen like some unseen and faceless dark lords like some of Jolt are now BUT these people shouldnt go out socialising with the community too much.

It would simply help break up whats often very much a 'old boys club' where everyones of a simerlar background and view point. As much as PATeam and Jolt sometimes fail to see it differing and even negative views as long as they are constructive are more useful than just having everyone agree.

Originally Posted by Brimstone

6) And probably most important. Get on, and be known by the existing team members. Teams dont work well if one (or more) person is hated by everyone else.

PATeam isnt a popularity contest and it shouldnt ever be. You do not have to actually like the people your working with to get the work done. As JC says and as I've said for rounds you dont want a PATeam of yes men, people should be able to disagree without fearing of being hounded out. Differnt opinions and views are important and yes making them might make you hated in PATeam but whats happened in the past when this has happened simply shouldnt continue to happen

Originally Posted by Phil^

having pateam affiliated strongly with any alliance draws claims of bias. thats why pateam and alliances are seperated. You cant be in pateam if you`re in an alliance

The problem is that bias is there if you make a person quit their alliance or not. Not trying to pick on Kal here but just whois him on IRC and see what channel he has voice in still and which he still hangs around. He has these connections with #nos and always will and no doubt how good his intentions are the 'conditioning' hes received. You can take the person out of the alliance but you cant take the alliance out of the person.

Its this thats the problem when choosing PATeam rather than the alliance they are in now, Your current alliance will inflict superficial bias but its the sub-conscious bias that effects your mindset of views and is potentially most damaging. A game designed by me for example would be effected by my small alliance consitioning and would see a game that was perhaps unplayable for the bigger players and someone with big alliance conditioning like sid would probally produce a game at the other extreame that its was worse for small players than r8. A game by the two of us however might be close to being good for all as both views are adequatly represented and this is what perhaps PATeam needs a fairly even mixture of the player spectrum so that the community as a whole is represented better rather than one group being able to railroad decisions in their favour

[Kal]

thats probably true wakey - so yes we should have people from all levels of pa giving an input into design if at all possible

[demiGOD]

hence Pa suggestions forum? or maybe not enough voice from these posters because a decent amount of them are either complaining or suggesting dumb ideas? how about Pa team liaisons in each alliance like mentioned? and if this was likely, who would it be in the alliances? should they be HC's or officers or should they be just regular active non-officers with a lot of Pa know-how?

[Assassin]

Perha[s they could be saw as observers? For example when the Mentor team was around and i was in it i was put in Vens allie just to look over things and help them in anyway i could hence the Mentoring team. So perhaps the PA Team to settle this row could do the same and stay in the background in allies, that way there not getting majorly involved and cant be blaimed for being biased.

[Rc mayhem]

Originally Posted by demiGOD

how about Pa team liaisons in each alliance like mentioned? and if this was likely, who would it be in the alliances? should they be HC's or officers or should they be just regular active non-officers with a lot of Pa know-how?

Kal is doing this at the moment over "Alliance features", the way Fcrew are handling it is we ask the normal members to tell us any they think and then the HC will go through them, picking out any we feel have merrit (yes I know that is a typo....) to discuss between us and then to take to the meeting with Kal.
Think thats how it is to work anyway

[Appocomaster]

Originally Posted by Assassin

Perha[s they could be saw as observers? For example when the Mentor team was around and i was in it i was put in Vens allie just to look over things and help them in anyway i could hence the Mentoring team. So perhaps the PA Team to settle this row could do the same and stay in the background in allies, that way there not getting majorly involved and cant be blaimed for being biased.

I don't think they have too much time, tbh. I'm not sure how willing alliances would be to let pa team have access - although it'd sort of be like having auditors in to visit

[Brimstone]

Since when have you heard of a team of people who work voluntarily for a group/community, where they dont get on with eachother?

A team has to be able to work together, and like eachother. This does not mean "Yes Men". You never agree totally with someone no matter how good friends you are. The trick to being friends, is that you accept they have differences. We're not discussing issues of euthanasia etc, so (hopefully) major fallouts shouldn't happen (too often at least).

On the issue of alliance involvement, PAteam SHOULD NOT have any direct link (IE, is literally actively a member in the alliance). You'll never get someone who is totally removed from an alliance that actually knows the game.
If someone is to help or assist PAteam while being in an alliance, they should (as is the case anyway) be involved in such a way that they shouldn't have any major influence in game play.

Personally, i do not believe stats should be done by people within alliances, but i cannot dismiss the fact that since Sid got involved the stats have been some of the best, and as long as it stays that way i shall leave that to a mild grumbling and conspiracy theories.

Brimstone