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Unread 15 Sep 2008, 13:47   #51
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Re: Sarah Palin

dda were you always a republican or did you only become one once your yearly income reached a certain point?
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Unread 18 Sep 2008, 21:05   #52
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Re: Sarah Palin

Top Republican says Palin unready Senior Republican Senator Chuck Hagel has voiced doubts about Sarah Palin's qualifications for the vice-presidency.
John McCain's running mate "doesn't have any foreign policy credentials", Mr Hagel told the Omaha World-Herald.
Mr Hagel was a prominent supporter of Mr McCain during his 2000 bid for the US presidency, but has declined to endorse either candidate this year.
He was opposed to the Iraq War, and recently joined Mr McCain's rival Barack Obama on a Middle East trip.
'Stop the nonsense'
"I think it's a stretch to, in any way, to say that she's got the experience to be president of the United States," Mr Hagel told the Omaha World-Herald newspaper.
And he was dismissive of the fact that Mrs Palin, the governor of Alaska, has made few trips abroad.
"You get a passport for the first time in your life last year? I mean, I don't know what you can say. You can't say anything."
Mr Hagel also criticised the McCain campaign for its suggestion that the proximity of Alaska to Russia gave Mrs Palin foreign policy experience.
"I think they ought to be just honest about it and stop the nonsense about, 'I look out my window and I see Russia and so therefore I know something about Russia'," he said.
"That kind of thing is insulting to the American people."
BBC North America editor Justin Webb says Mr Hagel's opinion of Mrs Palin will have an effect on independent voters.
A senior member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Mr Hagel was a close ally of Mr McCain, but the two men parted company over the decision to go to war in Iraq.
Mr Hagel skipped this year's Republican National Convention in favour of a visit to Latin America.
Mr Hagel's decision to accompany Mr Obama this summer on a trip to Iraq and Israel, as part of a US Congressional delegation, led to speculation that he would throw his support behind the Democratic nominee.
However, a spokesman for the Nebraska senator insisted in August that "Senator Hagel has no intention of getting involved in any of the campaigns and is not planning to endorse either candidate".
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Unread 19 Sep 2008, 08:18   #53
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Re: Sarah Palin

That's the biggest load of bollocks I've read since the last time an American politician opened his mouth.
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Unread 19 Sep 2008, 19:55   #54
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Re: Sarah Palin

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
That's the biggest load of bollocks I've read since the last time an American politician opened his mouth.
hummm
that doesnt seem to make this statemend 'stick out' as a particularly bad one, does it?:P
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Unread 19 Sep 2008, 20:59   #55
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Re: Sarah Palin

Very perceptive.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 22 Sep 2008, 20:59   #56
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Re: Sarah Palin

She is a milf, and thats about it.

Perhaps a big contract and she plays in a porn movie! :P
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Unread 23 Sep 2008, 16:50   #57
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Re: Sarah Palin

The Ukranian PM is hotter. If I were Derren Brown....
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Unread 25 Sep 2008, 21:56   #58
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Re: Sarah Palin

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Originally Posted by Yahwe View Post
Much as I singularly adore dda he has said he is a republican.

It should come as no surprise that he would vote for a post box provided it had the republican nomination. Ditto Tacitus.

Indeed ditto democrats in America.

Politics only works when voters actually express a preference rather than follow the party. Their own thomas jefferson knew this but was unable to effect change. At least in Britain we all lie about who we voted for ...

EDIT: There is a monty python line I feel is apt "I'm a Roman Catholic and have been since before I was born" insert and interchange Democrat/Republican and you get to see the truth about American politics

Interestingly, at least to me, my voting history, as well as my party affiliation would seem to belie such a conclusion.

I was first able to vote in 1967. I registered as a Republican. Both of my parents were Democrats, at least one grandparent was a registered Socialist.

I registered Republican because there was a moderate Senator from California named Clare Engle who was being opposed in the Republican primary by an extremely conservative individual named Max Rafferty. I wanted to support the moderate against the conservative. I was unsuccessful. I then voted for Cranston the Democrat in the general election, he won.

Before I was old enough to register to vote, Ronald Regan was the Governor of California. I was going to college in Sacramento. It was announced that he was going to move out of the Governor's Mansion and into a large house about a mile from the dorm I was living in. My room mate and I, decided to walk over to see what this house looked like before he moved in and had guards on the place. We decided to express our political disagreement with Mr. Regan so we pissed on his lawn. Satisfying on many levels.

Later, I reregistered as a Democrat and voted for Humphrey (D) in '68 and even voted for McGovern (D) in "72. I voted for Ford (R) in '76. I voted against Regan (R) in both '80 and '84. In '88 I voted for Dukakis (D). '92 I voted for Ross Perot (I) as a protest. '96 I voted Nadar (GP) as another protest. I then voted for Bush twice and still like him despite his flaws. I will vote for McCain although I don't like him much. I do like Palin and think she would do a good job as president, there are several precedents in American history for inexperienced individuals making good presidents and an equal number of examples of experience individuals making bad presidents.

I vote for Dianne Finestein (D) for senator but would rather loose an arm than vote for Barbara Boxer (D) for the other senator.

Barak Obama will not get my vote because he is just another politician who has shown no principal what-so-ever to this point. If expounding platitudes is brilliance then he is brilliant.
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Unread 26 Sep 2008, 02:30   #59
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Re: Sarah Palin

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Originally Posted by dda View Post
Barak Obama will not get my vote because he is just another politician who has shown no principal what-so-ever to this point. If expounding platitudes is brilliance then he is brilliant.
fair enough. why are you voting for mccain though?
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Unread 26 Sep 2008, 07:05   #60
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Re: Sarah Palin

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CoL_wxoFRfU
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Unread 26 Sep 2008, 07:41   #61
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Re: Sarah Palin

It's pretty cool how politicians are elected based on their likeability.
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Unread 26 Sep 2008, 17:42   #62
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Re: Sarah Palin

*sigh*

Can't post URL's yet... so look up "Aaron Sorkin Conjures a Meeting of Obama and Bartlet" in the NYT Op-Ed under Maureen Dowd from 20 Sept.

Sarah Palin is... an insult to women everywhere. I should know, I am one and it is definately an insult to me that she believes that women should have no rights to their own bodies, nor the education to understand them.

The current Republican Executive branch and Republican ticket is an affront to scientists. I am one and I feel b****slapped with a rainbow trout to know that I could face another 4 (not to mention 8, 12, 16) years of federal creationist budget cuts in my field and limitations on what I can do to medically and environmentally assist the world.

I campaign (regardless of cantidates available) to keep the current policy that ignorance is the best way to educate our future children from being affirmed by the stance that "the planet Earth was created in six days 6,000 years ago complete with a man, a woman and a talking snake"... and by the way, where the h*** is my talking snake! Did Adam & Eve speak parseltogue?

As for the mention above that most American's choose political parties like religions, for the most part I cannot disagree. I can say that for my part I was born into a conservative republican family in a conservative republican community, and it took me 12 years to figure out that I wasn't (the questions about Biblical incest and inbreeding started that ball rolling), much to the dismay of my family and childhood friends that only want to "save" me.

As for our VP's... Both parties chose a VP cantidate based on what they thought would balence out the superficial ticket. They chose running mates they thought would make good backgroundy people that would back them up enough to be accepted in the party and disagree with them enough to try and appease the media.
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Unread 26 Sep 2008, 20:48   #63
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Re: Sarah Palin

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Originally Posted by WallBiter View Post
*sigh*

Sarah Palin is... an insult to women everywhere. I should know, I am one and it is definately an insult to me that she believes that women should have no rights to their own bodies, nor the education to understand them.
I am not a woman, however, I support a woman's right to chose. That right to chose, however, I believe extends to her right to decide what she thinks is right an wrong. There are many who are insulted by those who feel that a fetus is not a living human being. If you accept that one COULD reach that conclusion, and there is no overwhelming logic for why one couldn't possibly reach such a conclusion, then it is not surprising that, independent of religion, there could be individuals who would find the taking of that human life to be a bad decision. One has to balance the convenience of the woman against the life of the unborn.

While I have twice participated in the decision which came down on the side of the woman (and my own) convenience over the life of a potential human. If given the same decision again, I would make the same decision. However, to harbor such vitriol toward those who would chose differently is offensive. Just as it is offensive that there are those who harbor vitriol toward those who believe in the right to choose.

The key thing is (at least to those of us in the legal profession) is that women currently have the right to choose and it doesn't make a difference who is in power that will not change. Even if there are conservative justices on the Supreme Court, the overturning of Roe v. Wade would not make abortions illegal. It would make it possible for the citizens of individual states to decide what was and wasn't legal. We call that democracy. I live in California and there is no way in hell the citizens of California would ever abolish abortion. Same for New York, Massachussets and many other states. This would mean that a woman might have to travel to get the abortion but not that she wouldn't be able to get one.

As to Palin in particular, I admire those who have the courage of their convictions. Even knowing she was going to have a child with a serious flaw she didn't compromise her beliefs for expediency. I will take that quality in a leader even if I don't necessarily agree 100% with all of their stances.

Quote:
The current Republican Executive branch and Republican ticket is an affront to scientists. I am one and I feel b****slapped with a rainbow trout to know that I could face another 4 (not to mention 8, 12, 16) years of federal creationist budget cuts in my field and limitations on what I can do to medically and environmentally assist the world.
This is just pure crap! What budget cuts have YOU as a scientist (which science, by the way?) had to face in the last 8 years and exactly how are they linked to those with creationist beliefs?

I am an atheist and do not believe that creationism should be taught in science classes. Certainly laws, such as the Tennessee law which led to the Scopes trial in the '20s, should be, and have been struck down. I realize that there are strict creationists out there. Many of them are Democrats as well as Republicans. I was raised in a church where everyone in the church was a long time Democrat. It was not a large church, but it was very conservative in its religious beliefs. They believed that anyone who was not baptised by full-water-emersion was going to go to hell. Yet they regularly voted for Democrats.

Again, as to Palin, Bush or other Republican leaders, what particular bill have they proposed or suggested which would shrink the size of YOUR rice bowl in order to push creationism.

Quote:
I campaign (regardless of cantidates available) to keep the current policy that ignorance is the best way to educate our future children from being affirmed by the stance that "the planet Earth was created in six days 6,000 years ago complete with a man, a woman and a talking snake"... and by the way, where the h*** is my talking snake! Did Adam & Eve speak parseltogue?
If you want talking snakes please google Harry Reid and Barney Franks. There must be footage, I have seen them on tv.


Quote:
As for the mention above that most American's choose political parties like religions, for the most part I cannot disagree.
Actually, you seem to exemplify the point.

Quote:
I can say that for my part I was born into a conservative republican family in a conservative republican community, and it took me 12 years to figure out that I wasn't (the questions about Biblical incest and inbreeding started that ball rolling), much to the dismay of my family and childhood friends that only want to "save" me.

As for our VP's... Both parties chose a VP cantidate based on what they thought would balence out the superficial ticket. They chose running mates they thought would make good backgroundy people that would back them up enough to be accepted in the party and disagree with them enough to try and appease the media.
I agree with you on this last point except that I don't think it is possible to "appease the media."
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Unread 26 Sep 2008, 21:33   #64
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Re: Sarah Palin

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Originally Posted by WallBiter View Post
I am one [a scientist] and I feel b****slapped with a rainbow trout to know that I could face another 4 (not to mention 8, 12, 16) years of federal creationist budget cuts in my field and limitations on what I can do to medically and environmentally assist the world.
What's most ironic is seeing how WallBiter is just as sympathetic to science as the conservatives she denounces are to religion. A perfect example of the American whose vote is emotionally motivated and devoid of any logic. But it's not hypocritical, you see, because science = logic. It takes the thinking of a left-liberal science fetishist to make that connection. Forget about the history and politics during the last 6,000 years of human nature, we need to know what happened millions and billions of years ago, before apes and beyond light. We need to accept Darwin, our savior from ignorance. Then, when we're at the foot of Gaia, we will know no fear.
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Unread 26 Sep 2008, 22:02   #65
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Re: Sarah Palin

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda View Post
While I have twice participated in the decision which came down on the side of the woman (and my own) convenience over the life of a potential human. If given the same decision again, I would make the same decision. However, to harbor such vitriol toward those who would chose differently is offensive. Just as it is offensive that there are those who harbor vitriol toward those who believe in the right to choose.

As to Palin in particular, I admire those who have the courage of their convictions. Even knowing she was going to have a child with a serious flaw she didn't compromise her beliefs for expediency. I will take that quality in a leader even if I don't necessarily agree 100% with all of their stances.
First, a woman's right to choose is simply that. Taking that right away, be it local, state or federal law is what I oppose. And it depends on where you live as to when the line of life is drawn as it pertains to a gamete, zygote, embryo, or fetus under the law. I support a woman’s right to chose, with knowledge of all the options. I am not pro-abortion or anti-life, and I don't believe I mentioned RvW. I have counseled friends and relatives, I have formed my own decisions, and I don't believe the outcomes of those sessions are in any way the government's business or yours... and that is my point. Courage of conviction is one thing, but campaigning to impose your convictions on others is not something I admire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda View Post
This is just pure crap! What budget cuts have YOU as a scientist (which science, by the way?) had to face in the last 8 years and exactly how are they linked to those with creationist beliefs?

-Again, as to Palin, Bush or other Republican leaders, what particular bill have they proposed or suggested which would shrink the size of YOUR rice bowl in order to push creationism.
I have been in academic science (Molecular Biology, Biochemistry, Biophysics, and Cellular Biology) since graduating with my Bachelors Degree. I am currently working on a Masters degree. Every year I have seen the immediate effects of the budget cuts, on individuals, labs, departments, schools and entire institutions. Over the last 6 (And I’ll stick to my window of personal knowledge) the cumulative effects are dramatic. If you don't believe me just use Google.

Now, linking the budget cuts to creationist beliefs is not all that farfetched seeing as we have an Executive branch that firmly believes they are on a divine mission (not just while invading sovereign nations). I also link poor science education (and, really debatable, but wth, education in general) with leaders that would rather stick by their beliefs than allow children to learn the beauty of the evolutionary process (in favor of *POOF!* there was a chicken and God said "it is good."), or that procreation is something you can chose to be a part of only by abstaining from it (it works so well!). If you want to make a mandatory theology/ philosophy series of courses, I am all for it... teach children to think, not only of the beliefs of their ancestors, but of the others that surround them, and chose their own.

I think we agree on that, but possibly not on this: religion (any religion) should be kept as far from a government based on freedom of religion as possible. Since you are an atheist, I hope you can agree that morality and good judgment are not solely claimed by those with (a) certain spiritual dogma (s). If you cannot, I respect that as well.

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If you want talking snakes please google Harry Reid and Barney Franks. There must be footage, I have seen them on tv.
Really? Sentient talking snakes? I am so there! If there was anything more I needed to convince my childhood best friend that I am now the anti-Christ’s favorite chef, it would be a sentient talking snake.

Oh, and Prover: Yes, of course I have an active interest in scientific policy... it is where my rice comes from. But I am also a person with my own spiritual beliefs. They are also none of the government's business or yours.

As for my post, if I had continued with every issue important to me, not just a couple important ones and a social issue (that when it comes down to I wish I hadn't used b/c it detracts from conversations), my post would have been so long that few could have gotten through it (including myself to check for spelling errors).

I don't know who I am voting for. I do know that I have a significant problem with both VP candidates, not to mention a few with the Presidential ones. Most important to me is Education, followed (in no particular order) by International Policy, The Economy, The Environment, Healthcare, maintaining the Bill of Rights in a Responsible fashion, Tax Reform, Social Security Reform, and a myriad of other issues. Science, and scientific research funding, is important if only b/c it is involved in at least half of these, not just due to my livelihood.
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Unread 26 Sep 2008, 22:51   #66
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Re: Sarah Palin

Fresh blood?
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Unread 26 Sep 2008, 23:00   #67
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Re: Sarah Palin

1) A woman has a right to choose whether she has safe sex or not. The logic behind pro-lifers is based firmly on the principles of liberty and scientific fact. A person is fundamentally distinguished as an individual by their own DNA, which is uniquely formed at the moment of conception. This is the only reasonable point at which a human life should be defined as begun, with respect to the property rights of the born individual. This is becoming increasingly obvious as a moral standard since in vitro fertilization and artificial wombs show the possibility of an individual (gamete, zygote, or whatever in your terms) being completely independent of its mother.

2) A woman shouldn't have the right to vote, at least the ones who blab as much as WillBiter.
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Unread 27 Sep 2008, 00:02   #68
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Re: Sarah Palin

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Originally Posted by Prover View Post
1) A woman has a right to choose whether she has safe sex or not. The logic behind pro-lifers is based firmly on the principles of liberty and scientific fact. A person is fundamentally distinguished as an individual by their own DNA, which is uniquely formed at the moment of conception. This is the only reasonable point at which a human life should be defined as begun, with respect to the property rights of the born individual. This is becoming increasingly obvious as a moral standard since in vitro fertilization and artificial wombs show the possibility of an individual (gamete, zygote, or whatever in your terms) being completely independent of its mother.

2) A woman shouldn't have the right to vote, at least the ones who blab as much as WillBiter.
BWAHAHAHA!

1) By your own definition life must be independent of a mother. So nutrient broths, and artificial wombs don't function as the gestational apparatus which nourish and protect the lifeform? You forgot the recent advent of male pregnancy. Can a blastula survive without a gestational apparatus? Also by your thoughts, women should not be able to conceive via in vitro fertilization... especially since in an unsucessful round of treatment, an embryo that does not implant into the uterus is unretrievable and "dies", not to mention that many embryos end up unused, frozen and unable to complete the developental process.

And yes, a woman can choose not to have safe sex... but is it a choice if she doesn't know it's available, or is prevented from her choice to use it b/c it is (in the mind of her parents, church, or pharmacist) a mortal sin to prevent the conception, wherein the problem in your mind begins, if she chooses to use it?

2) Again, I have the right to choose to vote (or not). I don't believe in dictating which citizens of our country get the right to do so, even those like you, Prover! :P And I also have the right to blather on as much as I like! I rather like that right. Just as you have the right not to read or respond to it.

Last edited by WallBiter; 27 Sep 2008 at 00:07.
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Unread 27 Sep 2008, 01:08   #69
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Re: Sarah Palin

Let me try to spell this out. If the law allowed women the right to kill her babies up until 12 months, would you still support that right to choose? If not, then your argument is based on a legal definition that's subject to changing at any time. But saying "it depends on when the line is drawn" is just to say you have no basis, otherwise you would define what constitutes infanticide and what does not. In trying to be politically correct, you seem to have no distinction between what is morally right and what says the law.

Edit: Also, at what point beyond conception would a child otherwise become independent of its mother in the legal sense? A fetus nourishing in a gestational apparatus is just as independent as a baby nourishing on a tit. There is no clearer answer to when a human life becomes an individual than the moment of conception.

Last edited by Prover; 27 Sep 2008 at 02:25.
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Unread 27 Sep 2008, 02:16   #70
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Re: Sarah Palin

Prover, shut the hell up you ignorant twat.

Anyone condemning somebody based on their beliefs, views or opinions, should be shot whilst hung from some very high rafters.
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Unread 27 Sep 2008, 02:45   #71
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Re: Sarah Palin

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Originally Posted by dda View Post
As to Palin in particular, I admire those who have the courage of their convictions. Even knowing she was going to have a child with a serious flaw she didn't compromise her beliefs for expediency. I will take that quality in a leader even if I don't necessarily agree 100% with all of their stances.
So if someone, like Palin, has the courage to speak out about their obviously stupid belifs who already have been proven wrong* they should be respected? Shouldnt they rather be held up as examples of how stupid you look when you announce your ignorence to whole world?

So no I'm just waiting for you to come out with support for those who belive the earth is flat

I'm also curious why you don't defend Roe vs Wade on a more economical basis. The failure to provide abortions in the midwest would cost enormous sums of money (more crime, more poverty, more money to eduction etc etc), money your country doesn't have at all.

* Palins view on abstantionist programs is a good example. They have not worked, and that has been proven over and over again. However, the religious right in the US belive in them as a matter of ideology, and hence wants to continue with it.
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Unread 27 Sep 2008, 04:49   #72
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Re: Sarah Palin

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Originally Posted by dda View Post
I am not a woman, however, I support a woman's right to chose. That right to chose, however, I believe extends to her right to decide what she thinks is right an wrong. There are many who are insulted by those who feel that a fetus is not a living human being. If you accept that one COULD reach that conclusion, and there is no overwhelming logic for why one couldn't possibly reach such a conclusion, then it is not surprising that, independent of religion, there could be individuals who would find the taking of that human life to be a bad decision. One has to balance the convenience of the woman against the life of the unborn.
You need to define what a "human being" is here. An unborn fetus has no meaningful traits that qualify it as a human being other than its potential to become so. Is the potential for something to become something else enough to justify the violent enforcement upon a woman to have a child?
not even close... you're the one who needs to come up with meaningful evidence here.



Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
While I have twice participated in the decision which came down on the side of the woman (and my own) convenience over the life of a potential human. If given the same decision again, I would make the same decision. However, to harbor such vitriol toward those who would chose differently is offensive. Just as it is offensive that there are those who harbor vitriol toward those who believe in the right to choose.
if you're right then you are greenlighted to offend others. simply put; it's more important to correct people than to appease them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
The key thing is (at least to those of us in the legal profession) is that women currently have the right to choose and it doesn't make a difference who is in power that will not change. Even if there are conservative justices on the Supreme Court, the overturning of Roe v. Wade would not make abortions illegal. It would make it possible for the citizens of individual states to decide what was and wasn't legal. We call that democracy. I live in California and there is no way in hell the citizens of California would ever abolish abortion. Same for New York, Massachussets and many other states. This would mean that a woman might have to travel to get the abortion but not that she wouldn't be able to get one.
the idea that you voting for a shitbag because better human beings exist elsewhere is an abysmal justification for voting for someone. truely awful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
As to Palin in particular, I admire those who have the courage of their convictions. Even knowing she was going to have a child with a serious flaw she didn't compromise her beliefs for expediency. I will take that quality in a leader even if I don't necessarily agree 100% with all of their stances.
i think the 9/11 hijackers had some real, serious ****ing conviction. i think i might vote for them in the next elections.
if you want someone who is clearly following their conscience instead of the corporate bankroll, then why don't you vote for nadar? why didn't you vote for kucinich? why didn't you vote for gravel?
the idea that voting for mccain or/and palin based on the idea that they are have "moral conviction" is beyond a joke. www.counterpunch.com is a good start. so is anything not produced by the NYT/washington post or any other AIPAC bankrolled "outlet".


Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Again, as to Palin, Bush or other Republican leaders, what particular bill have they proposed or suggested which would shrink the size of YOUR rice bowl in order to push creationism.
maybe you should look to political parties outside of the democratic/republican spectrum?

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
I agree with you on this last point except that I don't think it is possible to "appease the media."
you're right. because the mainstream media aren't there to be appeased. they're there to be bought. they are bought off. you are bought off. your vote is bought off. that is the democracy you value. you're bought. you're sold.
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Unread 27 Sep 2008, 04:51   #73
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Re: Sarah Palin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prover View Post
What's most ironic is seeing how WallBiter is just as sympathetic to science as the conservatives she denounces are to religion. A perfect example of the American whose vote is emotionally motivated and devoid of any logic. But it's not hypocritical, you see, because science = logic. It takes the thinking of a left-liberal science fetishist to make that connection. Forget about the history and politics during the last 6,000 years of human nature, we need to know what happened millions and billions of years ago, before apes and beyond light. We need to accept Darwin, our savior from ignorance. Then, when we're at the foot of Gaia, we will know no fear.
read what you just said again in your head.
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Unread 27 Sep 2008, 04:57   #74
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Re: Sarah Palin

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But I am also a person with my own spiritual beliefs. They are also none of the government's business or yours.
yes they are. here's why... because they affect my life.
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Unread 27 Sep 2008, 05:03   #75
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Re: Sarah Palin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prover View Post
1) A woman has a right to choose whether she has safe sex or not. The logic behind pro-lifers is based firmly on the principles of liberty and scientific fact. A person is fundamentally distinguished as an individual by their own DNA, which is uniquely formed at the moment of conception. This is the only reasonable point at which a human life should be defined as begun
what do you mean by begun? that they can now be described as a "human being" that is of equal moral worth to you or i?

Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
, with respect to the property rights of the born individual. This is becoming increasingly obvious as a moral standard since in vitro fertilization and artificial wombs show the possibility of an individual (gamete, zygote, or whatever in your terms) being completely independent of its mother.
this has nothing to do with the valuation of a childs life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prover
2) A woman shouldn't have the right to vote, at least the ones who blab as much as WillBiter.
shut up you idiot
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Unread 27 Sep 2008, 08:16   #76
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Re: Sarah Palin

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Originally Posted by Kenny View Post
Prover, shut the hell up you ignorant twat.

Anyone condemning somebody based on their beliefs, views or opinions, should be shot whilst hung from some very high rafters.
Heh.
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Unread 27 Sep 2008, 10:58   #77
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Re: Sarah Palin

This is a pretty funny link where Sarah Palin tries to talk.

http://blogs.tnr.com/tnr/blogs/the_...redentials.aspx

Also there is this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npUMUASwaec

Scary stuff.
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Unread 27 Sep 2008, 15:57   #78
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Re: Sarah Palin

That first link is broken.
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Unread 27 Sep 2008, 17:51   #79
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Re: Sarah Palin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Prover
Forget about the history and politics during the last 6,000 years of human nature, we need to know what happened millions and billions of years ago, before apes and beyond light. We need to accept Darwin, our savior from ignorance. Then, when we're at the foot of Gaia, we will know no fear.
What little progress has been made in the growth of our collective humanity over the past few millennia has been shepherded by people who have striven to understand more, both about themselves and the world in which they lived. These people have been systematically pulled down by others, who's true agenda was (and still is today) to enforce a dogmatic system of social control upon them and others who might start to think like them. Religious institutions throughout history have been guilty of the most heinous of crimes against said humanity, something which continues to this very day. People, like you, who choose to stop thinking and who desire to enforce this choice upon others are the single greatest threat to our continued evolution and to our ultimate potential, whatever that may be.

As a modern example, the Catholic Church is a wilful protagonist in the ongoing HIV/AIDS epidemic in Sub Saharan Africa. They take people with little education, no wealth and even less hope and they fill their heads with toxic doctrine about the evils of contraception and the eternal punishment that awaits those who use it. There are an estimated 22 million people infected with 1.5 million of those dying every year, but still it continues. Millions upon millions of untold tales of suffering, and for what? When anyone within that institution with a conscience does speak out he is shunned, shamed or browbeaten into silence. (I say he because they don't give a shit what women think anyway.) These people are condemning innocents to death every single day with their rabid fundamentalism but still the purity of the doctrine takes precedence. In fact, it seems to be all that truly matters.

In much the same way that all that matters in these abstinence programs is the purity of the message and the enforcement of the social control, regardless of it's effectiveness. What is paramount is the squashing of individual thought and it's replacement by blind obedience in as many young people as possible, as early as possible. If the point truly is to reduce teenage pregnancies, as is widely claimed by advocates, then why has it not been replaced by something that might actually work at doing that? Abstinence is a proven failure in every statistical analysis. But the dogma cannot be challenged or adjusted, only obeyed. All else is chaos!

Last edited by Achilles; 27 Sep 2008 at 20:40. Reason: spelling and grammar
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Unread 27 Sep 2008, 18:06   #80
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Re: Sarah Palin

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
As to Palin in particular, I admire those who have the courage of their convictions. Even knowing she was going to have a child with a serious flaw she didn't compromise her beliefs for expediency. I will take that quality in a leader even if I don't necessarily agree 100% with all of their stances.
This is short-sighted in the extreme. What is far more important than the decision itself is the thought that went into making it. Did she weigh the decision carefully, balancing all the pros and cons, or did she automatically follow the direction of her church without independent consideration? One of these would be a very, very bad quality in the leader of the most powerful nation of the planet. Which, let's face it, she is only one more face cancer away from should her ticket be elected. Given Ms. Palin's views on similar subjects which are more in the public domain I have very serious doubts.
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Unread 28 Sep 2008, 21:56   #81
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Re: Sarah Palin

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Originally Posted by WallBiter View Post
First, a woman's right to choose is simply that. Taking that right away, be it local, state or federal law is what I oppose. And it depends on where you live as to when the line of life is drawn as it pertains to a gamete, zygote, embryo, or fetus under the law. I support a woman’s right to chose, with knowledge of all the options. I am not pro-abortion or anti-life, and I don't believe I mentioned RvW. I have counseled friends and relatives, I have formed my own decisions, and I don't believe the outcomes of those sessions are in any way the government's business or yours... and that is my point. Courage of conviction is one thing, but campaigning to impose your convictions on others is not something I admire.
So if an initiative were place on the ballot in your state to end abortions or seriously restrict them, you would not campaign against its passage?

If you feel something is wrong, how is it wrong to be supportive of attempts to end that wrong?

Isn't all politics an attempt to impose one groups convictions on another?




Quote:
I have been in academic science (Molecular Biology, Biochemistry, Biophysics, and Cellular Biology) since graduating with my Bachelors Degree. I am currently working on a Masters degree. Every year I have seen the immediate effects of the budget cuts, on individuals, labs, departments, schools and entire institutions. Over the last 6 (And I’ll stick to my window of personal knowledge) the cumulative effects are dramatic. If you don't believe me just use Google.

Now, linking the budget cuts to creationist beliefs is not all that farfetched seeing as we have an Executive branch that firmly believes they are on a divine mission (not just while invading sovereign nations). I also link poor science education (and, really debatable, but wth, education in general) with leaders that would rather stick by their beliefs than allow children to learn the beauty of the evolutionary process (in favor of *POOF!* there was a chicken and God said "it is good."), or that procreation is something you can chose to be a part of only by abstaining from it (it works so well!). If you want to make a mandatory theology/ philosophy series of courses, I am all for it... teach children to think, not only of the beliefs of their ancestors, but of the others that surround them, and chose their own.
There doesn't seem to be any support in your answer for the supposition that creationists are responsible for drops in educational level.

Sadly, I blame lawyers and self-righteous educators. Layers for scaring everyone in the educational community by constantly suing over everything regardless of how trivial or silly.

I can remember, even 40 years ago, that it was often not in my best interests to express a political opinion which was contrary to that of certain teachers/professors. This appears to be something which has gotten worse, not better with time.



Quote:
I think we agree on that, but possibly not on this: religion (any religion) should be kept as far from a government based on freedom of religion as possible. Since you are an atheist, I hope you can agree that morality and good judgment are not solely claimed by those with (a) certain spiritual dogma (s). If you cannot, I respect that as well.
I do agree that morality is not the sole possession of any one group. However, I am occasionally annoyed by those who do things which can only annoy others to make small points. Wanting to keep Christmas trees out of any governmental space. Wanting to take "In God We Trust" off of money. Doing so only annoys and stirs up the other side.

Quote:
Really? Sentient talking snakes? I am so there! If there was anything more I needed to convince my childhood best friend that I am now the anti-Christ’s favorite chef, it would be a sentient talking snake.

Oh, and Prover: Yes, of course I have an active interest in scientific policy... it is where my rice comes from. But I am also a person with my own spiritual beliefs. They are also none of the government's business or yours.

As for my post, if I had continued with every issue important to me, not just a couple important ones and a social issue (that when it comes down to I wish I hadn't used b/c it detracts from conversations), my post would have been so long that few could have gotten through it (including myself to check for spelling errors).

I don't know who I am voting for. I do know that I have a significant problem with both VP candidates, not to mention a few with the Presidential ones. Most important to me is Education, followed (in no particular order) by International Policy, The Economy, The Environment, Healthcare, maintaining the Bill of Rights in a Responsible fashion, Tax Reform, Social Security Reform, and a myriad of other issues. Science, and scientific research funding, is important if only b/c it is involved in at least half of these, not just due to my livelihood.
I agree with you as to the important issues, in no particular order. What I was concerned with was what appeared to me to be an emotional rather than an intellectual attack on Gov. Palin. I have been surprised by the level of animus which has been directed toward her. Much of it has a very irrational tinge. I am pleased to see that this was not the case with you.
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Unread 29 Sep 2008, 20:57   #82
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Re: Sarah Palin

You're a bit late, dda, Achilles have already won this thread
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Unread 30 Sep 2008, 00:18   #83
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Re: Sarah Palin

Palin has corpses in her closet. Also, she appears to be incompetent the last days.
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Unread 30 Sep 2008, 06:58   #84
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Re: Sarah Palin

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Palin has corpses in her closet. Also, she appears to be incompetent the last days.
She's getting more attractive by the second.
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Unread 30 Sep 2008, 10:50   #85
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Re: Sarah Palin

You misread mz, he said incompetent, not incontinent
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Unread 30 Sep 2008, 11:38   #86
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Re: Sarah Palin

Damn.
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Unread 30 Sep 2008, 13:06   #87
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Exclamation Re: Sarah Palin

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Originally Posted by dda View Post
I do like Palin and think she would do a good job as president
I'm reassured by the fact that you live in California.
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Unread 30 Sep 2008, 14:06   #88
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Re: Sarah Palin

Table of US political interference in science under the Bush administration.

I get the impression that Palin's dogma is even stronger than Bush'.
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Unread 2 Oct 2008, 19:10   #89
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Re: Sarah Palin

had this pointed out to me ..

Check out pictures of the Palin with her glasses on, normally glasses distort the side of the face as you look through them, any seen a photo of her when this happens ?

Are those glasses a prop to make her look more intelligent ?
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Unread 2 Oct 2008, 20:23   #90
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Re: Sarah Palin

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Originally Posted by Mistwraith View Post
had this pointed out to me ..

Check out pictures of the Palin with her glasses on, normally glasses distort the side of the face as you look through them, any seen a photo of her when this happens ?

Are those glasses a prop to make her look more intelligent ?
My glasses don't distort the sides of my face but I assure you that they are very very necessary. You haven't turned 40 yet. You are forgiven.
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Unread 3 Oct 2008, 12:47   #91
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Re: Sarah Palin

dda, I have a question to ask you, based on your above voting history:

Are you really mental, or do you just get drunk every time the 4th of November comes around?

Ross Perot, Dubya, McGovern, Carter (I presume you're too embarrased to say directly that you voted for him) - it's like a roll call of all the most unqualified candidates to be President in recent history.
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Unread 3 Oct 2008, 21:09   #92
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Re: Sarah Palin

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Originally Posted by Marilyn Manson View Post
dda, I have a question to ask you, based on your above voting history:

Are you really mental, or do you just get drunk every time the 4th of November comes around?

Ross Perot, Dubya, McGovern, Carter (I presume you're too embarrased to say directly that you voted for him) - it's like a roll call of all the most unqualified candidates to be President in recent history.
McGovern: He was running against Nixon. I really, really didn't like Nixon and didn't have a viable alternative. At least I can't be blamed for Nixon.

Carter: The option was to vote for Ford who had given Nixon a pardon. I was offended. I also thought that a political outsider might be a nice change. I was wrong.

Perot: I was casting a protest vote. I was still relatively liberal at this point but thought that Clinton was a sleazy asshole. I was not proven wrong. Bush was part of the Regan administration which I hadn't liked but in hindsight wish we had back.

G. W.: I think that Bush did a fairly decent job until he decided that he was in fact a liberal and started spending like a drunken sailor (no offense to drunken sailors meant). Additionally, I think that Gore is very wrong on so many things and Kerry makes Bush likable in comparison. I am very glad that neither Gore or Kerry was president.

Just for the record, however, I would vote for Gore or Kerry if the only other choice was Obama and Biden. I think that if they get elected ( a very likely event) we will long for the good old days when we had a stallwart president like Jimmy Carter. At least Carter was an honest man.
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Unread 3 Oct 2008, 22:07   #93
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Re: Sarah Palin

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Originally Posted by dda View Post
Perot: I was casting a protest vote. I was still relatively liberal at this point but thought that Clinton was a sleazy asshole. I was not proven wrong. Bush was part of the Regan administration which I hadn't liked but in hindsight wish we had back.
yet more proof - if proof be needed- of the american ability to distort the language.

Liberal? You voted Perot because you were a liberal?

I REALLY want the word liberal back.

It means, or ought to mean, "having a liberated mind" "being unconstrained by accepted ideas" "questioning" "unwillingness to accept given truths without proof and/or a belief in their efficacy"

A liberal says "hang on a second you can't assume ..."

A liveral does not vote Perot
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Unread 3 Oct 2008, 23:21   #94
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Re: Sarah Palin

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Originally Posted by dda View Post
My glasses don't distort the sides of my face but I assure you that they are very very necessary. You haven't turned 40 yet. You are forgiven.
actually i did in May

ok fair enough it was just something that was said to me, and i thought .... hrrmm
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Unread 4 Oct 2008, 04:06   #95
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Re: Sarah Palin

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Just for the record, however, I would vote for Gore or Kerry if the only other choice was Obama and Biden. I think that if they get elected ( a very likely event) we will long for the good old days when we had a stallwart president like Jimmy Carter. At least Carter was an honest man.
yes. obama lies. but he at least has an excuse. the one excuse. the one excuse that excuses you for selling out. the excuse that you are appeasing the brain dead electorate so that you can get in power and then do what needs to be done.
well he's certainly sold out. he's sold out to AIPAC, he's sold out to the oil lobby. he's sold out to the talking points and the stupid prejuidces that invade and contextualise every single debate you see on national tv.
the one thing that can redeem him, is if he is doing this as a means to gain power and then do as much good as he can without being impeached.
do i think he would do that? probably not to any meaningful extent. but if you think he isn't, then simply don't vote, or vote for someone with genuine integrity. don't vote for the figurehead of the party that sets the agenda in this way so that someone who (possibly) wants to do some good has to sell out like this.

there is no excuse to vote for mccain. you're not making a principled vote, and you're not voting for the "least bad option". there is no excuse.

this is a fun article by the way.
http://www.counterpunch.org/valentine06132008.html
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Unread 27 Oct 2008, 23:04   #96
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Re: Sarah Palin

dda, I'd be interested to know if you still feel the same way about Governor Palin as you expressed in your OP?
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Unread 4 Nov 2008, 10:56   #97
Vendetto
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Re: Sarah Palin

God she's awful. I can't believe you like her. The list goes on of her ineptitude. The Couric interviews did more damage to her than nothing else. And the winks, stop the winks please.


For one, she forced RAPE VICTIMS, to pay for their own forensics tests. I bet if her daughters were raped the state of alaska would pay for it, just like they paid for their plane tickets and luxury hotel rooms to places they didn't need to go.

Another reason is she fired a man for refusing to fire her ex brother in law, who happened to be an excellent state trooper.

For another one she openly lies to the public, saying Obama 'palls around with terrorists'

Another thing, she uses her voter's contribution funds to pay for clothes. God they spent 150k on her clothes. You know how many homeless people that would feed for a year? Hundreds.

She's inept. She is like bush with a vagina. She can't talk correctly, she's literally stupid. And she's got too quick of a temper to be our leader, same with mccain. Her husband is a joke too.


Don't even get me started on McCain.

Last edited by Vendetto; 4 Nov 2008 at 11:03.
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Unread 4 Nov 2008, 11:05   #98
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Re: Sarah Palin

Why so angry?
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 4 Nov 2008, 11:08   #99
Vendetto
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Re: Sarah Palin

Because their entire campaign is a sham. I am a hardcore republican. I actually voted for bush in 2000. My mistake. I was all happy for mccain to be running, and now he's so ghetto.


Taken from another site, reasons not to go for palin:
1. There goes McCain's best argument.
He cannot say Obama is not ready but she is. Obama started organizing his campaign for president the same month she was sworn in to lead the third-smallest state's government.
2. She has no base of support.
Obama won his senate seat with 3,597,456 votes, that's more than five times the population of Alaska. He has won more than 18 million votes in a long, tough primary that tested him and prepared him. How has she been tested? She lost her first bid for statewide office, then won the governor's office with 114,697 votes, not a majority, but enough to take office. And apparently, enough to set her up for the Oval Office.
3. The "woman card" will backfire.
She's no Hillary Clinton. And this is such an obvious ploy. It would be different if she were known to anyone or qualified or something.
4. Alaska, a corrupt hinterland.
Yes, she is a hard-nosed, tough reformer. But the McCain campaign will have to deal with the fact that Alaska seems like a foreign land as corrupt as Louisiana. It's longtime senator will stand trial smack dab in the middle of this campaign season, and McCain may have to vote to remove him from office. Yes, they can spin it that she is someone cleaning up the mess up there, but what Americans realize is that they don't know much about what goes on up there. Will they be comfortable with her?
5. Was this McCain's choice?
It seems clear that McCain wanted to go with Lieberman but was talked out of it by the right wing of his party. Rove admits calling Lieberman to ask him to pull his name out. Bush lost his way because he never stood up to Rove et. al. McCain is headed down the same path.
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Unread 4 Nov 2008, 11:24   #100
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Re: Sarah Palin

You got issues man.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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