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Unread 29 Apr 2005, 20:00   #1
Baron Morte
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Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

I just erased my legal copy of Warcraft III and broke the cd!


Well, the cd was already broken and i was using this image in my HD to play, which i deleted which =s to breaking the CD...


Well there is this stupid strat where 2 human players build shitload of towers which is
1) Ridiculous
2) Unethical
3) Against gaming principles
4) Boring
5) Makes a game which at average lasts 18 mins turn into a 3 hour nightmare

And then we lost and i did that

Ive been playing w3 for about 1 year now, and i have lost previously to this strat and felt very angry, not becouse i lost, but the unfairness of using a strategy which will bore people into losing...

Now i am with this bad feeling down the stomach wich will last 3 days, because i hate injustices, but the up side to it is that ill never be in that situation again.

But it scares me not being able to play such a dear game again...

Im quite lost as to if i should forget about online gaming in general, due to its pointlessness and that it will undoubtely lead me to a state of anger against the stupid mofos which will always develop some sort of unskilled way to win (there is this nerdish obsession with victory, instead of just playing the game)
Also there is this http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=184982 topic about this problem, which means im prolly leaving mp games for good, at least for the next 5 years or so. I dont ever want to feel the way im feeling now again.

Im feeling just like the way i did when i quit planetarion. Frustation and wondering why i made such a vain effort to play properly. The only good thing about that was that i got in contact with a lot of peaple, and I still do. As w3 is comunity of twats, there is no one to miss...

So, do any of you have any sugestion of a good hobbie? I plan reading and studying with my newfound free time, which is boring....

Therefore, help me GD, you are our only hope
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Last edited by Baron Morte; 29 Apr 2005 at 20:23.
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Unread 29 Apr 2005, 20:04   #2
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Why don't you build something which can outrange the towers? I mean, towerswarming's been part of games since C&C, but as they're not "particularly" mobile and aren't the most efficient damage/cost, why can't you use your superior map control to produce a greater industrial base?
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Unread 29 Apr 2005, 20:08   #3
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
Im quite lost as to if i should forget about online gaming in general, due to its pointlessness and that it will undoubtely lead me to a state of anger against the stupid mofos which will always develop some sort of unskilled way to win (there is this nerdish obsession with victory, instead of just playing the game)
Also there is this topic about this problem, which means im prolly leaving mp games for good, at least for the next 5 years or so. I dont ever want to feel the way im feeling now again.
I don't like the way some people play the game. That's why I play exclusively on servers with people I know (when playing FPSs) or with friends (RTSs).

Online gaming is only pointless if you're not having fun, which it appears you aren't. However, if you do enjoy it, and so many people do, it's not particularly pointless at all.

Furthermore, I don't see how you can declare that tactic to be "unethical" and all the rest of your deranged rantings.

Finally, what's so good at http://2/ that you had to link it to us?
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Unread 29 Apr 2005, 20:16   #4
Baron Morte
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Why don't you build something which can outrange the towers? I mean, towerswarming's been part of games since C&C, but as they're not "particularly" mobile and aren't the most efficient damage/cost, why can't you use your superior map control to produce a greater industrial base?
Trust me
The human towering strat is recipy to victory as long as you have plenty of time
reason
1) With the masonry upgrades towers will have ridiculous endurance
2) With a mage doing blizzard and 2 paladins healing it (paladins can use divine shield to become invulnerable) there is no way to attack it. Brilliance aura means he can blizzard/heal/use divine shield indefinetly
3) the more you attack it, the more the enemy will enjoy, because the heroes get exp and become impossible to kill
4) the Mountain kings will knock your heroes unconscient and kill it with holy light (im undead)

in short, this strat it just easy win, as long as you sit there and wait for a 3 hour game
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Unread 29 Apr 2005, 20:26   #5
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Furthermore, I don't see how you can declare that tactic to be "unethical" and all the rest of your deranged rantings.
Because they want you to
1)Suffer from a connection mishap and drop
2) Start getting late for something and drop
3) Someone calls you/invites you to do something, or your girlfriend to get angry with you
4) Bore yourself to death and just quit

At best its an act of bad faith
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Unread 29 Apr 2005, 20:32   #6
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
I just erased my legal copy of Warcraft III and broke the cd!
If an online game coerces you to delete your game and break the CD, being tower-zerged may be the lesser of your worries.
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Unread 29 Apr 2005, 20:38   #7
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
If an online game coerces you to delete your game and break the CD, being tower-zerged may be the lesser of your worries.
How would exposing me to the same crappy situation make a better person out of me?

I got late to work today because i tried to "teach" them that by doing that, they would only lose time and not win (which is their greatest fear) so that them and people like them would play properly.... and I failed miserably.

I just dont get what good would do to bust my ass playing a game which brings me loads of frustration?

Why would i play planetarion to get bashed every other week?
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Unread 29 Apr 2005, 20:40   #8
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
I just dont get what good would do to bust my ass playing a game which brings me loads of frustration?
You can just decide to, you know, not play.
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Unread 29 Apr 2005, 20:42   #9
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leshy
You can just decide to, you know, not play.
which i did, by the means of deleting the image
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Unread 29 Apr 2005, 20:46   #10
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
Trust me
The human towering strat is recipy to victory as long as you have plenty of time
reason
1) With the masonry upgrades towers will have ridiculously endurance
2) With a mage doing blizzard and 2 paladins healing it (paladins can use divine shield to become invulnerable) there is no way to attack it
3) the more you attack it, the more the enemy will enjoy, because the heroes get exp and become impossible to kill
4) the Mountain kings will knock your heroes unconscient and kill it with holy light (im undead)

in short, this strat it just easy win, as long as you sit there and wait for a 3 hour game
then the game sucks. an rts game has to be balanced, there must not be any killer strategy that ruins it (and that every idiot can copy).
you have three options:
a) quit playing or start playing another, better game
b) come up with a form of counter strategy (and be the new hero of the whole gamming comunity), you probably have to be korean for that though.
c) wait for a patch that fixes the inbalance
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Unread 29 Apr 2005, 20:52   #11
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
which i did, by the means of deleting the image
Oh wait, I misread. I thought you deleted both the game and broke the CD, I missed the part where you said the CD had already broken.

In that case, I still wonder why you felt the need to delete the image without at least making a backup. Or why this is such an important event that we need to discuss it at length.
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Unread 29 Apr 2005, 20:53   #12
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Can't you just avoid their base completely, creep up to get decent heroes while his/hers are hovering around the towers, and do it like that?

If they're spending all their money on towers, they won't have any for upgrades to units or be buying as many units. As soon as they need to expand to a new goldmine, don't they run into massive difficulties?
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Unread 29 Apr 2005, 20:56   #13
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Well, that tower problem is a pain in the ass, i have faced that before and theres nos reasonable way to beat that (at least that i´ve tried). But i still think you should keep playing this game until one day you gonna be so pieced off that you will grab your mouse and stick up your own ass then break your keyboard on your head, how about that?
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Unread 29 Apr 2005, 21:43   #14
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Exclamation Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by wu_trax
then the game sucks. an rts game has to be balanced, there must not be any killer strategy that ruins it (and that every idiot can copy).
you have three options:
a) quit playing or start playing another, better game
b) come up with a form of counter strategy (and be the new hero of the whole gamming comunity), you probably have to be korean for that though.
c) wait for a patch that fixes the inbalance
d) whine on unrelated forums about the injustice of it all and your inability to deal with it.
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Unread 29 Apr 2005, 21:54   #15
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
paladins can use divine shield to become invulnerable
Ignoring that I still don't think it's unbeatable (and that if you don't like it, you should play with people who don't do that - you know, using some sort of discretion), surely this requires the pal to be at level 6, which is impossible without attacking another player?
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Unread 29 Apr 2005, 22:00   #16
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
Trust me
paladins can use divine shield to become invulnerable
Just use that time to bandage up to full health, you'll basically just go through a reset of the fight, with the exceptions that you've taken one of his three effective health bars down.



What.
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 01:45   #17
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
d) whine on unrelated forums about the injustice of it all and your inability to deal with it.
Im not whining, someone made me a question and I answered it
I do not regret stop playing the game, im just asking for advice on what to do with the free time
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 01:49   #18
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Ignoring that I still don't think it's unbeatable (and that if you don't like it, you should play with people who don't do that - you know, using some sort of discretion), surely this requires the pal to be at level 6, which is impossible without attacking another player?
Healing (holy light) and divine Shield (invulnerability) are lvl 1 spells
I cant choose the people i play against (its anonymous matchmaking)
Really there are ways to beat that, that being controlling all the other mines, but thats a processs which will take ages and bore the crap out of you.
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 02:00   #19
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

riiiiiiggggghhhhhhhhhhhtttttttt

And like, we care, why?
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 02:14   #20
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

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riiiiiiggggghhhhhhhhhhhtttttttt

And like, we care, why?
Apparently it does matter to a wide host of people. Should you not feel interested by this subject, hit the "back" button, instead of ruining someone elses topic.
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 02:45   #21
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Ive just deleted Americas Army after playing it for quite some months because its filled with campers (people who lurks in ridiculous places to shoot unsuspecting people in the back)

GOD DO I HATE MULTYPLAYING GAMES. PEOPLE WILL DO JUST ABOUT ANYTHING TO WIN
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 10:42   #22
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

ITT Muslim sucks at computer games
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 10:50   #23
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

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Healing (holy light) and divine Shield (invulnerability) are lvl 1 spells.
Oh yes, it's resurrection for the level 6 isn't it.

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Originally Posted by Baron Morte
Ive just deleted Americas Army after playing it for quite some months because its filled with campers (people who lurks in ridiculous places to shoot unsuspecting people in the back)

GOD DO I HATE MULTYPLAYING GAMES. PEOPLE WILL DO JUST ABOUT ANYTHING TO WIN
Muslim vs a hamster.
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 11:00   #24
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

ITT I support Muslim!

Mind you, IMO W3 was a bad apple the moment it stepped off the production line.


..then I must retract support because he deleted AA which is the most godly of games
(btw, camping in AA isn't a reality, the gameplay mechanics do not allow campers to win, it's all about team work, and I hate to say it but if campers are getting the better of you then you just aren't playing the game properly).
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 11:01   #25
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
ITT I support Muslim!

Mind you, IMO W3 was a bad apple the moment it stepped off the production line.
Except he's not saying that WC3 is a bad game. He's saying he doesn't like playing it with anyone.
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 11:06   #26
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Except he's not saying that WC3 is a bad game. He's saying he doesn't like playing it with anyone.
He's saying W3 has unbalanced gameplay, I'm supporting that statement. In addition to supporting his statement I'm also saying it was always unbalanced, even before people discovered this 'towering strategy'.
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 11:07   #27
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
He's saying W3 has unbalanced gameplay, I'm supporting that statement. In addition to supporting his statement I'm also saying it was always unbalanced, even before people discovered this 'towering strategy'.
Quote:
Ive been playing w3 for about 1 year now, and i have lost previously to this strat and felt very angry, not becouse i lost, but the unfairness of using a strategy which will bore people into losing...
Why doesn't he play with people who don't use that strat?
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 11:13   #28
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

I think it just matches you up anonymously with people of the same (or similar) level or rank, Mark.

So he doesn't know if they're tower idiots until he gets into the game.
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 11:15   #29
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Why doesn't he play with people who don't use that strat?
...because there's more people who do than don't perhaps?

anyway, as I see it, the game will never be balanced without removing heroes altogether.
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 11:17   #30
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomkat
I think it just matches you up anonymously with people of the same (or similar) level or rank, Mark.

So he doesn't know if they're tower idiots until he gets into the game.
The automatching system isn't the only way to play, you know. Why not play with people you know don't play like that?

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Originally Posted by Me
I don't like the way some people play the game. That's why I play exclusively on servers with people I know (when playing FPSs) or with friends (RTSs).
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 11:18   #31
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
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The automatching system isn't the only way to play, you know.
I didn't know :P
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 11:20   #32
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
...because there's more people who do than don't perhaps?
What has that got to do with anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
anyway, as I see it, the game will never be balanced without removing heroes altogether.
That's just flat out incorrect. It's not like it's a superunit that only one side has.

Lets work from the simplest case. Humans vs Humans. Perfectly balanced by definition. There's heroes in there, so your statement can't be true. QED.
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 11:26   #33
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

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Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
What has that got to do with anything?



That's just flat out incorrect. It's not like it's a superunit that only one side has.

Lets work from the simplest case. Humans vs Humans. Perfectly balanced by definition. There's heroes in there, so your statement can't be true. QED.
oh but it is, so what's the point of having other classes then if you can't play them against each other? that is most definatly unbalanced. Then even if you do both play the same class, you still have different levels for the hero and no control over how fast one player advances over the other, leaves too much to chance.

And, more importantly it shouldn't centre around 1 particular unit, they may have as well called it Herocraft 1, because it certainly doesn't carry the goodname of its predecessors.
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 11:41   #34
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
oh but it is, so what's the point of having other classes then if you can't play them against each other?
I think you've misunderstood my argument. You said that heroes couldn't be balanced. I gave a simple case where there could be no argument that they were balanced.

I was not saying that it was not balanced with the other races. I was giving a truistic example because I knew that "balance" in asymmetrical races is something you can't use simple arguments to derive.

However, evidently you think you can argue with an axiomic statement:

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
Then even if you do both play the same class, you still have different levels for the hero and no control over how fast one player advances over the other, leaves too much to chance.
What the hell are you talking about? The maps are (by and large) symmetrical. Therefore, there can't be any inherent difference between the two sides. The damage model, and AI behaviour, is ENTIRELY DETERMINISTIC. No room for luck there either.

If there are differences between the players, it's because on player plays better than another. Wow, shock!

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
And, more importantly it shouldn't centre around 1 particular unit, they may have as well called it Herocraft 1, because it certainly doesn't carry the goodname of its predecessors.
It's not one particular unit, it's one type of unit. Yes, there is are 1-3 units that are (usually) more powerful than the other ones on the map. But that doesn't mean that all the other units are worthless, far from it. There are very few bad or useless units in Warcraft. The only unit I don't really use habitually for the Night Elves is the mountain giant, for example.

The game has moved on. You've rejected a game because you don't like one of its dynamics, and claim that it isn't a worthy successor to its predecessors. But if you want to play Warcrafts 1 and 2, play them. Leave Warcraft 3 to people who actually like to see something different in their RTS genre.
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 11:46   #35
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

age of kings had no stupid heros. now that was a great game.
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 12:46   #36
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
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age of kings had no stupid heros. now that was a great game.
Age of Kings had no heroes. Neither did Age of Empires. Nor Warcraft I or II, or Starcraft. C&C 1 and 2? Nope. RA 1 and 2, Generals, not there either. Total Annihilation and TA: Kingdoms were both bereft of heroes. Dawn of War? Similarish, but not really the same at all. Warzone 2100? Hell no. Earth 2150, ditto. Ground Control II was significantly different in focus from GC1, but that didn't include changing the formula to include heroes. What about Dark Reign I and II? Fraid not. The closest Homeworld I and II got was the mothership. Perimiter is "different" from most other RTS's, but that includes Warcraft III. The Total War series? Not that kind of game at all.

If you don't like heroes, fine. Play one of the games without heroes. BUT DON'T START COMPLAINING ABOUT WARCRAFT III. Remove the heroes from that, and that's another interesting dynamic removed from the RTS canon.
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 12:59   #37
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
If you don't like heroes, fine. Play one of the games without heroes. BUT DON'T START COMPLAINING ABOUT WARCRAFT III. Remove the heroes from that, and that's another interesting dynamic removed from the RTS canon.
If they were just a dynamic there wouldn't be a problem, but as it is, THEY ARE THE GAME. The dynamics are every other unit & npc, somewhere when they made the game things got arse-about.
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 13:23   #38
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

i can see what you are saying but MrL is right this time you know.

plus, something about muslim there, if he was playing with an image of the disc anyway, whats to stop you getting another image of it and using the key that you must still have???
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 14:18   #39
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
If they were just a dynamic there wouldn't be a problem, but as it is, THEY ARE THE GAME. The dynamics are every other unit & npc, somewhere when they made the game things got arse-about.
Yeah, you have to pay attention to your heroes to do well in the game. Well done Holmes.

I also hear you have to obey their shitty resource dynamic, and that whole thing with using a mouse? Pfft, give me pure keyboard control any day!

Blizzard don't owe you anything. They made the game they wanted to make, one that many many people enjoy. The fact that you don't like it and want it to be a carbon copy of every other ****ing RTS out there is utterly immaterial.
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 14:42   #40
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
Because they want you to
1)Suffer from a connection mishap and drop
2) Start getting late for something and drop
3) Someone calls you/invites you to do something, or your girlfriend to get angry with you
4) Bore yourself to death and just quit

At best its an act of bad faith
They are not being unethical, they are merely using alternate tactics. If the game makes a certain tactic unbeatable (a "skank" as we used to term it) then the game (or it's rules) is/are flawed. Pretty much anything else is fair game.
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 15:31   #41
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
Yeah, you have to pay attention to your heroes to do well in the game. Well done Holmes.

I also hear you have to obey their shitty resource dynamic, and that whole thing with using a mouse? Pfft, give me pure keyboard control any day!

Blizzard don't owe you anything. They made the game they wanted to make, one that many many people enjoy. The fact that you don't like it and want it to be a carbon copy of every other ****ing RTS out there is utterly immaterial.
That's the most bullshit excuse I've heard in a long time, who said anything about them owing anything. The simple fact is they tried to breath new life into a dead horse genre, while it was a novel idea the implementation was horribly flawed.

Perhaps they tried so hard to break the RTS mold they pushed it well and truely into RPG territory. They should leave all that to their Diablo series where its more at home.
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 17:11   #42
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
That's the most bullshit excuse I've heard in a long time, who said anything about them owing anything. The simple fact is they tried to breath new life into a dead horse genre, while it was a novel idea the implementation was horribly flawed.
Wait, what am I supposed to be excusing? I think Warcraft III is an excellent game, and the hero system is really well implemented.

My point was that, even if you don't like a system, there are enormous numbers of people who do, so complaining that Blizzard didn't make an RTS in the style of so many that already exist is selfish in the extreme, as at least the Anti-Hero camp has the games I listed above to fall back on; tell me where to find another RTS with a similar hero dynamic, please.

I'm not sure how you can claim the RTS is a "dead horse genre". Yeah, there's not very many games coming out, but there never were, except in the period where it was in vogue and we got tens of terrible games pushed down out throats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbass
Perhaps they tried so hard to break the RTS mold they pushed it well and truely into RPG territory. They should leave all that to their Diablo series where its more at home.
Wait, when did Diablo become an RPG?
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 17:18   #43
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Yeah
the most accurate definition of War3 is Diablo 2 where you can buy like 50 mercenaries. Hero harassing and towering just kill this otherwise interesting game

Hero harassing being a 5 yr old kid that cant wait to start having fun 4 secs after slamming the cd in the cd tray!!
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 17:50   #44
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
Hero harassing being a 5 yr old kid that cant wait to start having fun 4 secs after slamming the cd in the cd tray!!
Damn those 5 year olds and their perfectly valid and useful tactics!
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 18:13   #45
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrL_JaKiri
tell me where to find another RTS with a similar hero dynamic, please.
invictus.

or did you mean good games?
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Unread 30 Apr 2005, 18:29   #46
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Yeah.
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Unread 13 Aug 2005, 03:08   #47
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Re: Talking about jumpy decision (need new hobbie advice)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Morte
So, do any of you have any sugestion of a good hobbie?
M E .
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