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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 08:06   #551
gzambo
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
Firstly, I have only been in Black Flag for 3 or so rounds. Prior to this, I was in Vikings, and I didn't really have any pull on their politics (I'm sure RexDrax / Influence can confirm this).

It's not a secret that I don't have ambition to play for #1. Why should it be expected for an alliance to play ftw? Alliances play how they want. If the members of that alliance don't like the lack of ambition, then they can join another alliance that suits their needs. In Black Flag's case, all our members are fine with our play style.

That being said, I have said within our walls that anyone who wishes to step up can do so. They prefer the current HC team to administrate the alliance.

If our members wants to join a more ambition alliance, they are more than welcome to leave. But they are comfortable where they are.
So black flags policy is to try nap the dominant alliance as it's just easier than negotiating individual pnaps?
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 09:07   #552
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
If you want to go play for fun, or try out how fun it realy is in a 30 man tag, go join Vikings/ODDR/FL, and then come back telling your story about it. Perhaps someone will listen more closely to your arguments if you actualy have experinced how it realy is.

Ultores won this round because they had by far the best fleet strat, and had their eyes on the price the whole round. Add that up with "luck" in regards of politics, and what seems to be by far the most active memberbase this round, i dont think PA has ever had any alliance deserving the win more than Ultores.

Unsure if you are ignorant or just misinformed from whatever wiki page you are looking at but p3nguins has played rounds with 30 and 40 members quite a few times. Often we have top planets and in fact it is well known that we play our best at a "FL/Vikings" size as you mention. Going for ally wins was always going to be a change for us but we did it and I'm proud of that after the first round we had vs apprime.

In my opinion after the previous two rounds and also ult deciding to play serious again this round there was only going to be p3ng contending them. This is not to downplay the roles of others but the game has stopped, its past tick 900 and p3ng have only just slipped into 3rd. It has been acknowledged that we have been gang banged at times and also chose to hit ult as our main competition early, I really dont know what everyone else has been doing to not be contending.

I mentioned yesterday in our priv chan some could see this as a "disaster round", which I think agar3s is trying to push for us to say but lets be realistic. If this has been a disaster round for p3ng then those currently ranked around us, with full tags or at least tags that have the number to win must be diabolical. I used to pay £5 to play pa, I'd hate to think I didnt get my moneys worth and the last few rounds I can safely say I have. I don't know what others are playing for in similar positions to us but if you had a chance to win you should take it. We tried early and ultimately paid the price for it.

I dont see why this should turn in to a HAHAHAHAHA bad politics LOLCATZ for p3ng when we were the ones who actually went for it. As mentioned by m0 earlier and as I have said many times to our players, no one cares to remember who came 3rd,4th,5th or even 2nd at an ally level, they certainly dont care whether you came 23rd one round as a planet. If you had the chance to win you should go for it, I've got no issue in saying we lost this time.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 09:09   #553
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Black Flags policy is to work with the alliance(s) that suit our strat and direction (such as Ults strat this round, CTs would have done well too).
There was a point during the round when we believed we could even fight for the win, but eventually we dropped way too far from the top to have reasonable chances. Ofc. we could have joined the block against ULT, but having just had a cripplefight with some of the participants (and ULT helping us in there), it just didn't feel like the right thing to do. You may call that all shades of wrong or pussying out or whatever, I personally do not care. Next round is next round and things can go very different.

Even if Clouds doesn't have the ambitions to go ftw, we have other HCs as well that would love to win a round with BF. Clouds isn't all of BF, neither am I, nor any other single person.

Forest: I'm not openly friendly towards Ultores, I openly respect them as an alliance to work with. Imo, that's a bit different, and I'm trying to stay friendly towards every alliance. What comes to BF cutting ties with Spore that one round, it was due to SoulS being awesome in politics and basically throwing all our plans under the bus.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 09:29   #554
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by Munkee View Post
Unsure if you are ignorant or just misinformed from whatever wiki page you are looking at but p3nguins has played rounds with 30 and 40 members quite a few times. Often we have top planets and in fact it is well known that we play our best at a "FL/Vikings" size as you mention. Going for ally wins was always going to be a change for us but we did it and I'm proud of that after the first round we had vs apprime.

In my opinion after the previous two rounds and also ult deciding to play serious again this round there was only going to be p3ng contending them. This is not to downplay the roles of others but the game has stopped, its past tick 900 and p3ng have only just slipped into 3rd. It has been acknowledged that we have been gang banged at times and also chose to hit ult as our main competition early, I really dont know what everyone else has been doing to not be contending.

I mentioned yesterday in our priv chan some could see this as a "disaster round", which I think agar3s is trying to push for us to say but lets be realistic. If this has been a disaster round for p3ng then those currently ranked around us, with full tags or at least tags that have the number to win must be diabolical. I used to pay £5 to play pa, I'd hate to think I didnt get my moneys worth and the last few rounds I can safely say I have. I don't know what others are playing for in similar positions to us but if you had a chance to win you should take it. We tried early and ultimately paid the price for it.

I dont see why this should turn in to a HAHAHAHAHA bad politics LOLCATZ for p3ng when we were the ones who actually went for it. As mentioned by m0 earlier and as I have said many times to our players, no one cares to remember who came 3rd,4th,5th or even 2nd at an ally level, they certainly dont care whether you came 23rd one round as a planet. If you had the chance to win you should go for it, I've got no issue in saying we lost this time.
I am not laughing at the choices you made politicly, I am laughing cause you didnt take your enemy serious or your members for that matter.

So what I mean by that is the following, you assumed cause you won 2 rounds that you would get it easy. When you spoke to your members you made it sound like it was going to be a walk in the park. When as an HC you should have known already that FR was going to be superior against your own CR/BS. Trust me when I say even PATSA knew about this. You are an HC, you OWN your members the respect they deserve. If your members are trying to recreate a tag without you, its time to self reflect.

So I am laughing that you are still here trying to defend any of the choices you made and pointing fingers. If an ally kills itself playing for #1 you should not have.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 10:49   #555
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
y do a little recap over the last stagnation rounds i can remeber, .... dont think PA has ever had any alliance deserving the win more than Ultores.
There has always been stagnation
How about r31 when there were only two full tags Ascendancy and xVx.
Ascendancy fought against an array of Battlegroups.. (yes 30 man tags including Saints and SPOOOON who brought players over from other games). Asc was actually on the verge of losing and would have had xVx joined in. But instead xVx and Asc NAPped

The last part goes a bit far ... there has always been one alliance (rarely two) of the elite as Ult is now. Be it eXi, Asc, App or others... its impossible to choose between these allies in their prime.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 11:47   #556
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
There has always been stagnation
How about r31 when there were only two full tags Ascendancy and xVx.
Ascendancy fought against an array of Battlegroups.. (yes 30 man tags including Saints and SPOOOON who brought players over from other games). Asc was actually on the verge of losing and would have had xVx joined in. But instead xVx and Asc NAPped

The last part goes a bit far ... there has always been one alliance (rarely two) of the elite as Ult is now. Be it eXi, Asc, App or others... its impossible to choose between these allies in their prime.
I would like to point out that round was a waste for xVx for bagging their first win, they had support of 2/3 plus of the universe and could have went for the win (they had the political support for it) but due to a lack of incentive to go for the win.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 11:51   #557
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by Wouter View Post
When as an HC you should have known already that FR was going to be superior against your own CR/BS. Trust me when I say even PATSA knew about this. You are an HC, you OWN your members the respect they deserve. If your members are trying to recreate a tag without you, its time to self reflect.

So I am laughing that you are still here trying to defend any of the choices you made and pointing fingers. If an ally kills itself playing for #1 you should not have.
I'm making the assumption here you either didnt read your .tv logs carefully enough or you were very misinformed by androme. The focus has always been on anti fr this round for us, members have been told about it plenty. No one underestimated this round once again everyone knew that also.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 12:08   #558
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by Munkee View Post
I'm making the assumption here you either didnt read your .tv logs carefully enough or you were very misinformed by androme. The focus has always been on anti fr this round for us, members have been told about it plenty. No one underestimated this round once again everyone knew that also.
I didnt say your focus wasnt anti fr, I said that FR is superior to CR/BS. So you failed to pick the right fleetstrat.
Then how many members do you think are leaving so far, how many of them are loyal to P3nguins yet, is it not pure stupidity to assume it was all androme. A planet thats inactive and didnt care at all if you found out or not.
You had a member meeting saying "we won last round with XP, we can do the same thing this round". What is that if not underestimating the round. You could just all be terrible at reading the game though.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 12:11   #559
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
R51 The Galatic Vikings(with Clouds in command) decided to let Apprime win the round, refusing to break off their preround block even though it meant they couldnt win. Everyone bullied TGV.
The next round TGV disbanded.
TGV definitely tried to win that round, we were ahead for 6 of the 7 weeks, and then we failed to control politics against us and we started crashing left right and center. When Apprime passed us we even warred them in a futile attempt to stop our crashing and tilt the politics. And the only one trying to bully TGV that round was yourself.

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
R56 Vikings(with Clouds in command) decides to preround block Spore, handing them the win.
When they finaly decided(Im not sure who broke off, perhaps it was Spore leaving Viks) end the NAP, the round was allready over. The next round Vikings had lost half their memberbase.
In R56 the goal again was to take the win for ourselfs, however, Spore had both the better fleetsetup and politics causing them to have a fairly big lead over Vikings after 5 weeks. Vikings then distanced themselfs from Spore (over differences we had with the behaviour of Forest) and once again had an even more futile attempt to get to #1. This was fully due to Spore perfectly controlling the politics that round and vikings having an inferior strategy. I'd go as far to say that 75% of vikings moved to Black Flag along with Clouds when he decided to leave (Clouds left as he felt Rexdrax and myself betrayed him and made him look disloyal to spore when we left their side, even though he agreed with our reasoning to do so). With Clouds being viewed as the most active HC within our ranks it wasn't really a surprise that he got so many members to join him.


I also see you are conveniently forgetting r50 FAnG and ND and Ultores blocking up, and stagnating the bigger part of the round as it doesn't fit your theorem that it's just Vikings/Clouds stagnating the round, or that allies take a big hit in memberbase after such a round if they do.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 12:21   #560
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by Munkee View Post
I'm making the assumption here you either didnt read your .tv logs carefully enough or you were very misinformed by androme. The focus has always been on anti fr this round for us, members have been told about it plenty. No one underestimated this round once again everyone knew that also.
If you thought BS was gonna win you the round, you lost it allready before the ticks started.
Some people think im bitter over not getting to do the stats, and some are apart of the group supporting anti christ in this game trying to make people belive something else than FR could be played this round.
Im not trying to flame you, or anyone, its easy to be fooled by isildurx when he talks stats. Just a little while back he claimed that CR/BS was the most built ship in the univers, dunno if in denial or just stupid. Then you have Kaiba also running around acting like he knows anything.
Just accept your strat was dismyssal, and help us make surevwe dont have more rounds with poor stats.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 12:23   #561
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
There has always been stagnation
How about r31 when there were only two full tags Ascendancy and xVx.
Ascendancy fought against an array of Battlegroups.. (yes 30 man tags including Saints and SPOOOON who brought players over from other games). Asc was actually on the verge of losing and would have had xVx joined in. But instead xVx and Asc NAPped
Was it that round where we left tag and hit the #1 xvx planet to get asc planet a win?
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 12:24   #562
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by Wouter View Post
I didnt say your focus wasnt anti fr, I said that FR is superior to CR/BS. So you failed to pick the right fleetstrat.
This was decided by the memberbase wanting to do something different from the rest of the uni. Wrong decision yes but it is wrong to blame the HC for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter View Post
Then how many members do you think are leaving so far, how many of them are loyal to P3nguins yet, is it not pure stupidity to assume it was all androme. A planet thats inactive and didnt care at all if you found out or not.
I am not yet aware of anyone else leaving; a few have been kicked for activity or crashing through our usual prop systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter View Post
You had a member meeting saying "we won last round with XP, we can do the same thing this round". What is that if not underestimating the round. You could just all be terrible at reading the game though.
I think your source has misinformed you. The member meeting did no such thing (I am assuming I am talking about the same one as we have only had one member meeting!). Instead it stated that we were clearly going to lose playing the way we are and that our only chance, even if a slim one, would be for the half of the memberbase that went cr to change to co and attempt to get some xp. The meeting did not rate the chances of this strategy highly just higher than no change at all.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 12:40   #563
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by SDN View Post

Forest/Morpheus get a grip! You try to come off as your writing things for the better good, not biased at all but every post you make shimmer of annoyance and frustration that the round did not go the way you wanted and that you were not able to influence politics the way you had hoped.

This was only ONE round of pa were ult had their great dcs commited, choose the best shipstrat and was able to keep fighting 1vs1 earlie without interference.

Yes i dont know all the behind the scenes of politics. But please man up and dont make a fool of yourselfs especially to you morph who are usually a intelligent and funny man!

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But it is about the greater good. And the same stuff gets said every round, regardless of who wins or loses.

I have stated publically Ult have been the best and deserve to win.

Politics were perfect for Ult. They have almost done the same this round Spore did in the round they won, namely isolated any competitors and got at enemies they could hit 1 v 1.

And that is actually good. It was good when Spore did it and it is good now.

The problem isn't Ult. The problem is the other HC's who allow it.

See with Ult, they hit whoever stands in their way. Thing is, so did Conc, Fury, Legion, 1up, Exil and all the other top alliances.

It is up to the rest of the universe to do something about it. Not suck up to them.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 12:45   #564
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by booji View Post
This was decided by the memberbase wanting to do something different from the rest of the uni. Wrong decision yes but it is wrong to blame the HC for it.


I am not yet aware of anyone else leaving; a few have been kicked for activity or crashing through our usual prop systems.


I think your source has misinformed you. The member meeting did no such thing (I am assuming I am talking about the same one as we have only had one member meeting!). Instead it stated that we were clearly going to lose playing the way we are and that our only chance, even if a slim one, would be for the half of the memberbase that went cr to change to co and attempt to get some xp. The meeting did not rate the chances of this strategy highly just higher than no change at all.
As for the members picking, thats still the HC to blame. They should have seen through it. It is not hard to spot that FR would dominate over CR/BS, investors shoot before any BS ship that isnt EMP, same for dealers shoot before any BS ship that doesnt EMPs. So trying to out EMP cloak ships.. who do you think will run out of defence first.

As for the leaving P3nguins part, ask some people within P3nguins what they are doing. Cause I know for a fact they are creating a new alliance and recruiting people from within P3nguins to do it.

The meeting basicly stated it though. Or didnt munkee question people who defended instead of attacking? I mean you guys were told to 3 fleet right?
Didnt you find it an odd decision? Or did you think that was aimed to play for value to win. If so how does not landing attacks help your case? You were being roided by 1 alliance at the time and decided to init roids while at it.

Last edited by Wouter; 20 Feb 2015 at 12:52.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 12:46   #565
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by Clouds View Post

This is what separates me from other HCs. Where others may have more ambition to win, they will do anything to achieve this (even backstab their friends). I don't agree with this notion.

All this talk about backstabbing to go for the win is quite disgusting. The thought of backstabbing a round long friend just to go for the win sickens me. CT did it to us a few rounds back, and to be honest, I was very disappointed in them.


p3nguins and their little block already tried to coerce us into backstabbing Ultores. Though, they will deny it, but their terms of a ceasefire was pretty clear. Did it make us cave? No. Once we commit to a certain alliance (or alliances), we will honour that commitment.

We will not play the backstabbing game. If you want to try and coerce us into backstabbing our friend(s), then let's dance. You won't achieve anything.
I have said this to you before and I say it again. It is not about backstabbing.
It is about making sure politics are such that you don't need to backstab.
But you don't, you just blindly go 'all-in' with whoever you deem to be strongest knowing at some point they will outgrow you and you can sit back and say 'but we dont backstab'.
It is YOUR politics that put you in that situation, where you can't win unless you 'backstab' and that is YOUR fault.

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Originally Posted by Clouds View Post
I think Ultores, currently, is one of the most non-backstabbing and loyal alliances left in this game.
Lol @ this.
Reverse the circumstances this round and you can be damn sure Ult would have hit BF. They won't admit it now they have won, but you don't take time off work, then hard cord dc, just to let a 'friend' win.

They would have gone for it and they would have been right to.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 12:50   #566
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by NoXiouS View Post

Forest: I'm not openly friendly towards Ultores, I openly respect them as an alliance to work with. Imo, that's a bit different, and I'm trying to stay friendly towards every alliance. What comes to BF cutting ties with Spore that one round, it was due to SoulS being awesome in politics and basically throwing all our plans under the bus.
It isn't a critisizism, you could label the opposite of me (that I am always against Ult). But you do nearly always pop up on Ults side of the fence round after round.

We just have 2 very different ways of playing the game.

I will always likely fight Ult because they are the best and to win, you have to beat the best.
Whereas you (bf, whoever) tend to work with the strongest as it makes it for an easier life.
I just don't see the point in it.

For everyone laughing at p3n for laughing, I notice you are the guys who didn't try and win. You can't laugh at someone for trying and failing, when you don't try at all.

The only ones laughing this round should be Ult, they owned us all.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 12:52   #567
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by NoXiouS View Post
What comes to BF cutting ties with Spore that one round, it was due to SoulS being awesome in politics and basically throwing all our plans under the bus.
Meant to add to this, I was under the impression it was because of me. Your HC certainly shouted 'its all Forest's fault' as often as possible.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 13:05   #568
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

I dont think its any point in trying to tell Clouds whats common sense in regards to doing politics.
Myself, i try setting a length of each deal, when the time comes, the deal is off. No backstabbing involved
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 13:07   #569
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by Forest View Post
I have said this to you before and I say it again. It is not about backstabbing.
It is about making sure politics are such that you don't need to backstab.
But you don't, you just blindly go 'all-in' with whoever you deem to be strongest knowing at some point they will outgrow you and you can sit back and say 'but we dont backstab'.
It is YOUR politics that put you in that situation, where you can't win unless you 'backstab' and that is YOUR fault.



Lol @ this.
Reverse the circumstances this round and you can be damn sure Ult would have hit BF. They won't admit it now they have won, but you don't take time off work, then hard cord dc, just to let a 'friend' win.

They would have gone for it and they would have been right to.
First of all backstabbing is exactly like leaving your ally behind and joining a hit on you. Or do you expect a friend in RL to hit you rather than the one hitting you(yes I assume this example suits you fine, must have happened alot) or stop the fight.

Again you comment about Ult when you know nothing about it. Soon you'll come here saying Ult bottom feeds. Any member in my alliance is better than you, so please stop with the jealousy mr powerhouse.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 13:11   #570
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by OlaTa View Post
Was it that round where we left tag and hit the #1 xvx planet to get asc planet a win?
I vaguely recall we launched a tick too late? And could've just ended the NAP instead, anyway?

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Originally Posted by Wouter View Post
As for the members picking, thats still the HC to blame.
I don't know what kind of alliance p3nguins is (was?), but that depends entirely on how the alliance is structured.

In an alliance like Ascendancy, in which power was gained solely through earning the respect of your fellow players, blaming some mythical 'HC' type of person would be ridiculous. If you disagreed with someone, you would simply stop listening to them.

On the other end of the spectrum, at first glance, it might be more reasonable to blame the HCs in a strictly hierarchical alliance like Spore if they made a mistake like this. However, even there, the HCs can only lead with the common consent of their members. If those members decide their HC were morons, they can leave at any moment and start a new alliance with more competent leadership. This is not the army, leaving is a perfectly legitimate option.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 13:14   #571
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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They should have seen through it. It is not hard to spot that FR would dominate over CR/BS, investors shoot before any BS ship that isnt EMP, same for dealers shoot before any BS ship that doesnt EMPs. So trying to out EMP cloak ships.. who do you think will run out of defence first.
I think you have rather misunderstood your stat advantage...
We went into the CR/BS strategy fully aware of the difficulties in facing a FR alliance.
What we stupidly did not expect was your CR strategy!
We failed to appreciate that 3-4 rogue building ziks would cripple the BS half of our alliance since they fake the rogues 3 times over and each can stop at team of two, then three planets ends up stopping 18 (all credit to the activity of these people by the way; I have launch recalled three times in a row and been stopped by the same set of rogues each time!).
With half of p3n stopped by rogues its not hard for your FR to defend against the CR.
If we had had the forethought and activity to set up a half dozen xan planets to spam broadswords and PL 3 def fleets each night you would be as troubled attacking us as we are attacking you!
In fact it is in PL def that i see the big gap between us... despite P3n's CR/BS strategy there has been almost no PL def with them. OTOH I see PL broadswords and devastators in ult all the time.
With that sort of thing the measure of the activity gap between us it wouldnt not have mattered which strategies either alliance took, Ult would likely still have won... barring political incompetence.
Politics ofc is an area where our Strategy seems to have counted against us.. but I wont start on that!!
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 13:16   #572
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by Forest View Post
but you don't take time off work, then hard cord dc, just to let a 'friend' win.

They would have gone for it and they would have been right to.
I think this is where the majority of us disagree, except maybe CT :>
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 13:27   #573
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
I think you have rather misunderstood your stat advantage...
We went into the CR/BS strategy fully aware of the difficulties in facing a FR alliance.
What we stupidly did not expect was your CR strategy!
We failed to appreciate that 3-4 rogue building ziks would cripple the BS half of our alliance since they fake the rogues 3 times over and each can stop at team of two, then three planets ends up stopping 18 (all credit to the activity of these people by the way; I have launch recalled three times in a row and been stopped by the same set of rogues each time!).
With half of p3n stopped by rogues its not hard for your FR to defend against the CR.
If we had had the forethought and activity to set up a half dozen xan planets to spam broadswords and PL 3 def fleets each night you would be as troubled attacking us as we are attacking you!
In fact it is in PL def that i see the big gap between us... despite P3n's CR/BS strategy there has been almost no PL def with them. OTOH I see PL broadswords and devastators in ult all the time.
With that sort of thing the measure of the activity gap between us it wouldnt not have mattered which strategies either alliance took, Ult would likely still have won... barring political incompetence.
Politics ofc is an area where our Strategy seems to have counted against us.. but I wont start on that!!
Since we asked those people to set up zik planets to help us with BS incoming. Is it not more likely that we just outsmarted you?
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 13:28   #574
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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First of all backstabbing is exactly like leaving your ally behind and joining a hit on you. Or do you expect a friend in RL to hit you rather than the one hitting you(yes I assume this example suits you fine, must have happened alot) or stop the fight.
Yes it is exactly like real life, what was I thinking.

I will be back later, I need to get in my battleship and go and shoot someone.


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Again you comment about Ult when you know nothing about it. Soon you'll come here saying Ult bottom feeds. Any member in my alliance is better than you, so please stop with the jealousy mr powerhouse.
Yawn @ useless trolling.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 13:31   #575
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Our ziks already sank your battleship

Sorry
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 13:33   #576
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Our ziks already sank your battleship

Sorry
noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!

First you make me swap all my nice devs for useless wraiths and now this.

WHY GOD, WHY!
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 13:35   #577
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!

First you make me swap all my nice devs for useless wraiths and now this.

WHY GOD, WHY!
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 13:39   #578
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by Forest View Post
Yes it is exactly like real life, what was I thinking.

I will be back later, I need to get in my battleship and go and shoot someone.




Yawn @ useless trolling.
Next time when I type a sentence, take your time to read it and give your brain time to understand what I said.

Useless trolling, is that not what you are doing every time you speak of having done anything in PA, no one is actually stupid enough to think to be the most powerfull pa player right.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 13:46   #579
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by Wouter View Post
Since we asked those people to set up zik planets to help us with BS incoming. Is it not more likely that we just outsmarted you?
Is that not what I said?
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 13:51   #580
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Is that not what I said?
I think you have rather misunderstood your stat advantage...

Isn't it more like I perfectly understood its weakness and strengths?
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 13:51   #581
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Had to google that one.

I do have strong opinions. Sometimes I agree/disagree with my own alliance, sometimes with other alliances.

What I won't do is toe the line simply because of political or other motives.

I say what I mean and I do so because I believe what I say is right. And I will accept the consequences of that
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 13:56   #582
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by Wouter View Post
I think you have rather misunderstood your stat advantage...

Isn't it more like I perfectly understood its weakness and strengths?
My point was that the stats do not actually favour a pure FR strategy so to say the FR strategy won it is somewhat misleading... you could have done any other strategy, as long as u had the rogues on top P3n would almost inevitably still lose.
Geez why can you not accept credit when its given?
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 13:57   #583
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Next time when I type a sentence, take your time to read it and give your brain time to understand what I said.

Useless trolling, is that not what you are doing every time you speak of having done anything in PA, no one is actually stupid enough to think to be the most powerfull pa player right.
Your original reply had nothing to do with what I said. I was just humouring you there, what with you just trolling again.

It is impossible to discuss anything with you because no matter how hard I work to put a post together, you have a stock reply that = 'lol forest you suck'

And everyone sees past it.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 14:03   #584
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Your original reply had nothing to do with what I said. I was just humouring you there, what with you just trolling again.

It is impossible to discuss anything with you because no matter how hard I work to put a post together, you have a stock reply that = 'lol forest you suck'

And everyone sees past it.
'lol forest you suck'
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 14:04   #585
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by [B5]Londo View Post
My point was that the stats do not actually favour a pure FR strategy so to say the FR strategy won it is somewhat misleading... you could have done any other strategy, as long as u had the rogues on top P3n would almost inevitably still lose.
Geez why can you not accept credit when its given?
Its about FR strat being harder to counter, you would actively need to use predef. You dont need to use predef against BS do you.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 14:32   #586
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by Wouter View Post
I think you have rather misunderstood your stat advantage...

Isn't it more like I perfectly understood its weakness and strengths?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wouter View Post
It is not hard to spot that FR would dominate over CR/BS, investors shoot before any BS ship that isnt EMP, same for dealers shoot before any BS ship that doesnt EMPs. So trying to out EMP cloak ships.. who do you think will run out of defence first.
clearly your understanding of the stats leaves something to be desired!

btw an 'I'm clearly cleverer than all of you' is very condescending. We went into it knowing the disadvantage and wanted to be different anyway. The way p3n works it should not be up to the HC to impose their choice on everyone else. We take pride in our democratic elements.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 14:33   #587
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

I have no doubt the FR strategy is good, if I had had a free choice I would have gone Etd FR.
However, I do not think the stats are as unbalanced as everyone keeps saying, usually when picking FR targets I freeze the lot near twice over... then they get thumped by wyverns. That seems reasonably well balanced when it needs 3+ defenders to stop a 2 person team. However, the amount of FR I stop has become almost an irrelevance (but only against Ult; rogues are not common in defence anywhere else since there are few ziks and they are in attack fleets)
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 14:55   #588
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Fi, de and bs were massively gimped this round for attack. Fi could get away with it if paired with defenders.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 15:23   #589
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by Forest View Post
I have said this to you before and I say it again. It is not about backstabbing.
It is about making sure politics are such that you don't need to backstab.
But you don't, you just blindly go 'all-in' with whoever you deem to be strongest knowing at some point they will outgrow you and you can sit back and say 'but we dont backstab'.
It is YOUR politics that put you in that situation, where you can't win unless you 'backstab' and that is YOUR fault.
I don't know why you keep saying that I always back the strongest alliance. The only alliance I've only really had any say in politics in Black Flag, and we even blocked against Ultores during my reign. Prior, while in Vikings, it was mainly RexDrax that ran politics.

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Lol @ this.
Reverse the circumstances this round and you can be damn sure Ult would have hit BF. They won't admit it now they have won, but you don't take time off work, then hard cord dc, just to let a 'friend' win.

They would have gone for it and they would have been right to.
No, they wouldn't have. agar3s/Ultores have more self-respect than to play your backstabbing game like muppets.

This is what separates Ultores from the other backstabbing alliances, they play with honour and dignity. And please Forest, stop comparing Spore to Ultores. Spore won one round. Most of your core members quit because the stress was too great for them. Ultores won, what, 7-in-a-row with ease.

Last edited by Clouds; 20 Feb 2015 at 15:57.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 15:25   #590
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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clearly your understanding of the stats leaves something to be desired!

btw an 'I'm clearly cleverer than all of you' is very condescending. We went into it knowing the disadvantage and wanted to be different anyway. The way p3n works it should not be up to the HC to impose their choice on everyone else. We take pride in our democratic elements.
Yes I meant CR, which you knew in any case. P3ng HC does impose tho, try grounding your fleets when you are being hit. An HC would pm you and flame you about it. You arent democratic cause you use "prop" to let new members in.
I have no problem saying I am a better HC than any HC in P3nguins though.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 15:36   #591
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by Wouter View Post
P3ng HC does impose tho, try grounding your fleets when you are being hit. An HC would pm you and flame you about it.
Yeah people get unreasonably worked up about gals grounding for incs. Doesnt stop the gals grounding tho.
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You arent democratic cause you use "prop" to let new members in.
I have no problem saying I am a better HC than any HC in P3nguins though.
A bizarre mix of democracy in some areas and autocracy in others.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 16:12   #592
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Can't remember ULT being the top tag ever when I've started to work with them, nor was p3ng when we worked with them, they became the top tag later... Only time I've helped an already in the top tag was with FL, and that was when I had nothing to do with anything (except the very end, organizing the FCs on Vikings together with spaceman). Like I said before, I rather work with those who suit our strat and general direction, not a specific tag. And like someone said earlier, trust is hard to earn, easy to lose.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 17:07   #593
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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No, they wouldn't have. agar3s/Ultores have more self-respect than to play your backstabbing game like muppets.

This is what separates Ultores from the other backstabbing alliances, they play with honour and dignity.
lol. Seriously, lol.

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And please Forest, stop comparing Spore to Ultores. Spore won one round. Most of your core members quit because the stress was too great for them.
I can compare Ult to whoever I like if the strategy they are using at the time is similar. A size/wins/skill level of an alliance means NOTHING as I am not discussing the size/wins/skill but the strategy.

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Ultores won, what, 7-in-a-row with ease.
Yes, it was with ease
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 17:51   #594
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by NoXiouS View Post
Can't remember ULT being the top tag ever when I've started to work with them, nor was p3ng when we worked with them, they became the top tag later... Only time I've helped an already in the top tag was with FL, and that was when I had nothing to do with anything (except the very end, organizing the FCs on Vikings together with spaceman). Like I said before, I rather work with those who suit our strat and general direction, not a specific tag. And like someone said earlier, trust is hard to earn, easy to lose.
It isn't about supporting the top tag, but making the round artificially unfair very early on (clouds alliances, DO have a habit of early napping and allying, with a refusal to break. Whether this is to do with clouds or just the kind of people he surrounds himself with is debatable).

But lets pretend there are 600 planets.

6 x 100 planets. I am saying 100 in an alliance just for ease of maths. Let us also pretend they send out 50 fleets in attack nightly on a random basis.

That means each alliance gets 50 incs a night. (5 x 50) / 5 = 50

If just two of them nap, they cut their incoming to (4 x 50) / 5 = 40

If three nap then its even worse at (3 x 50) / 5 = 30 and is not far of only getting HALF the incoming of the others.

Then you have to consider the impact on the others. If an alliance is napped with one other, that means the 4 alliances left share the 600 incs meaning they get 150 incs each. At a time when yours has dropped to 40 by ONE nap.
Do it with 3 naps and the other 3 alliances incs grow to 200 each and yours drop to 30.
Unsustainable. Then your alliances grow larger, faster. The others ask for help and you get to say 'but it is not up to us to decide the round' when infact, you already did.

And this is only during times of peace!
---------------------------------------------------------------------

We can also do that for this round and see the maths.

BF/Ult/ND have been napped through a large majority of it.

That is 180 planets. Out of roughly 500 if you count just the players in tags over 6 and add a few more on.

let us assume each tag of 50+ sends 50 fleets and the rest send 25.

That is 50 x 7 and 25 x 4 (actually I will merge those 4 into 2 50 tags for ease of calcs, so 50 x 9.

BF would thus get 50 random incs a night. (400 shared between 8)

By napping ult/nd that is 2 less. so they get only 6 x 50 which is 300 / 8 = 38 incs a night random.
Again consider the ones that don't nap. They still get the 50 incs but also get the 12 that bf/nd/ult dont get. thats an extra 36 on top shared between 6 = 6 added to the 50 they were getting = 56 against your 38.

33% less incoming during peace time, of course your aliances will grow faster.

Then with less incs you get to send more attack fleets out, again skewing the figures even worse.

Then you get to shout 'it isn't our fault, you can deal with em' knowing full well it is totally skewed. Ult are (as clouds stated quite clearly) the best alliance in the game so you gave em a 33% head start and wonder why they win so easily

-------------------------------

Back in r2, there was the triad of Fury/Legion/RB. And back then, with what? 200k planets and people were saying it was unfair.

Yet here we are, in basically the same situation but with the three having 33% of the universe.

It just doesn't work

(wrote this with a screaming kid demanding attention so numbers may be slightly out, but essentially you get the point).
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 18:09   #595
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Then ranks 1 and 2 turned on 3 to make the ultimate block.

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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 18:20   #596
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by Forest View Post
Back in r2, there was the triad of Fury/Legion/RB. And back then, with what? 200k planets and people were saying it was unfair.

Yet here we are, in basically the same situation but with the three having 33% of the universe.

It just doesn't work

(wrote this with a screaming kid demanding attention so numbers may be slightly out, but essentially you get the point).
Thinking on how many of those 200k planets was Legion/RB/Fury bots/multies/farms, i do find it unfair.
Everyone know that controlling a smaller group of dedicated people is far easier than controlling a larger group of less dedicated people
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 19:28   #597
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

Maybe we should pre-round nap Ultores next round just to see Forest cry again. That'll be more enjoyable than getting that +v in #planetarion.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 19:32   #598
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Maybe we should pre-round nap Ultores next round just to see Forest cry again. That'll be more entertaining than getting that +v in #planetarion.
Ive suggested to pre-round block BF to make sure if they are on the "wrong" side of the univers, atleast they wont be doing much harm.
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 19:35   #599
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

You keep yelling how our naps reduce our incs... We were #3 in incs last round, #1 the round before that, #3 the round before that... Maybe we're not napping enough, ULTs numbers aren't that much lower compared to anyone else either, and most likely they will have the most incs this round. (yes, bows had most incs per member one round, I'm only speaking about the total incs).
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Unread 20 Feb 2015, 19:37   #600
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Re: R60 mid round turmoil

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Originally Posted by NoXiouS View Post
You keep yelling how our naps reduce our incs... We were #3 in incs last round, #1 the round before that, #3 the round before that... Maybe we're not napping enough, ULTs numbers aren't that much lower compared to anyone else either, and most likely they will have the most incs this round. (yes, bows had most incs per member one round, I'm only speaking about the total incs).
Total incs don't tell the story of a round though. I remember one round Spore had loads more incs yet a rather quiet round, because it all came in sustained periods of war.

It is the incs you get in times of 'peace' with just randoms which makes a big difference.
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