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Unread 18 Jun 2008, 08:44   #1
Kargool
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Paying for scans.

As the amount of dedicated scanners gets lower round for round due to nobody having the time anymore to be a dedicated scanner, I suggest a trade with the Universe scan system.

If you are desperate and cannot find anyone to do you a scan, you can buy them from the universe scan system. They are however not cheap. I suggest a 5Xprice of the normal cost of a scan. So that f.example a planetscan costs 5000 on the free market instead of 1000. (To simulate the supply and demand)

Limits to this is simple. A Universe scan system never has more than amps than the planet with most amps up to 100 amps which should be max(to protect the dedicated distorterplanets). And the Universe can only sell you scans that have been researched by one planet in the universe. (Ergo the highest scan possible becomes avaliable as the planets themselves develop them)
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Unread 18 Jun 2008, 09:51   #2
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Re: Paying for scans.

That's a bit unusual.

If you make the Universal Scan system a repository of only completed scans, then you achieve much in the way of limiting technology to people - eg, they wont have JGPs or AUs on day one, for example - but the array of scans might be much smaller, so you might need to make do with a unit scan that's xy ticks old or z days old, and take a gamble. I think that might be a better way of approaching it than having always up-to-date scans that the most well off planets in the universe can afford.

And in that vein, scanners can then sell their scans to the universal market or not, for a small fee (eg, if a P scan was 1000 of each, they could get 200 resources for it - it sucks to be a supplier). And so on.

That way its just a case of making the alliance scan storing system code available to everyone, rather than doing a recode. Right?
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Unread 18 Jun 2008, 10:08   #3
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Re: Paying for scans.

I'd argue that changing the scan tech tree would probably be the easiest thing to implement and should achieve similar things.

Starting with a unit scan and a form of jgp (that only shows your eta and only works at eta4 or below) would reduce the need for scan planets but still reward those with access to dedicated scanners, or those who decided to distorter whore.
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Unread 18 Jun 2008, 16:14   #4
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Re: Paying for scans.

Whilst I agree that something needs to change with scanning, I'm really not keen on the original suggestion.

I'd go along the lines of Gate's suggestion. Give solo planets a few basic tools to allow them to scan for themselves only without forcing them to go for a huge chunk of the scan tree before they can do useful scans.
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Unread 18 Jun 2008, 16:26   #5
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Re: Paying for scans.

Kargool idea has some merits. But I think that as proposed, it would further accelerate the extinction of dedicated scanners , because now people will have first their alliances, then friends, then random people, and finally the market. It would also promote piggybacking, as it would be much easier for un-allied/different allies now to take advantage of alliance attacks.

So lets simplify/make this more complex:

(1) Make the universal scanner a 100 amps source (independent of the number of scans/distorters out there). If willing to pay the price, then a player should get a fresh scan (no point in getting even a 1 hour old scan).

(2) Should we create a universal library? YES. If we also want to stimulate the birth of more dedicated alliance scanners, then allow alliances/players to sell their scans to this library. For example, make it a permanent feature that the Universal-Scanner/Library will buy any 1 hour fresh scan, and pay fixed amounts for this feature - the more complex the scan, the more revenue it produces. A 2 hour+ scan brings 0 revenue, so scanners must make their scans available right away to the universe or make nothing! This way alliances can get some of its daily $ investment back - but only if they are willing to let everybody know what they know.

(3) If so, we should let players browse the universal scanner library and pick old scans. Make a player pay a standard searching fee for quasi-unlimited 1 time access (i.e., searcher may see all that is available, but not the specific info of each scans).

(4) How to fix the side effects?

(a) How to make sure scanners DON'T cease to exist?
If people want fresh scans, and there are no scanners around and thus they are willing to pay more than otherwise, force people to choose this option wisely as a last resort, thus, for example, the first one may cost 2x (the normal cost), the 2nd one 3x, the 3rd one 4x, etc... (which, I predict people will be willing to pay as fleets [and thus risk of catastrophe] grows).

(b) How to curtail the exploit to piggy-back?
Now, I think searching the library should not be limited in a similar way - savvy players and those with a bit more of time in the mornings should be able to exploit the system. And, don't forget, this system requires payment for every single time use to obtain a single scan.

(5) If you wanna further complicate the idea. Maybe make one of the races pay very little for this feature and get more for the scans (i.e. the scanners race), and make another one pay a lot more than avr., etc So, players take this into account when choosing races.

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Last edited by Aedolaws; 18 Jun 2008 at 20:41.
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Unread 18 Jun 2008, 16:53   #6
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Re: Paying for scans.

I didnt intend to make it as the alliance scan system is now, (ie the library) only that if you purchased the scan, you would see it there and then, and it would not be stored anywhere else. And I really think that the expensive prices for it will make abuse less attractive. I.E a JGP would cost 40k of each resource.
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Unread 18 Jun 2008, 20:36   #7
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Re: Paying for scans.

Karg, the price has to grow, I will not pay 40k if I am betting 10k Co day 5 (I will recall), but I will not think twice to pay the same day 24, with 35k Cr. Cost/Benefit are very different.
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Unread 18 Jun 2008, 21:09   #8
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Re: Paying for scans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GReaper
I'd go along the lines of Gate's suggestion. Give solo planets a few basic tools to allow them to scan for themselves only without forcing them to go for a huge chunk of the scan tree before they can do useful scans.
I'd like to clear up that it's not my suggestion... it came from an earlier discussion but I can't remember who came up with the exact idea. If it were implemented, they should be hunted down & credited.

I just think it's a great idea - especially given that we seem to have almost no coding time to work with.
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Unread 18 Jun 2008, 21:24   #9
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Re: Paying for scans.

Gate's is the easiest patch.
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Unread 18 Jun 2008, 21:25   #10
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Re: Paying for scans.

I know, it's been mentioned by many people from ages ago, but you were the one who brought it up again!
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Unread 19 Jun 2008, 18:48   #11
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Re: Paying for scans.

i dont see why this hasnt been done before
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Unread 19 Jun 2008, 19:25   #12
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Re: Paying for scans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aedolaws
Gate's is the easiest patch.
After a little thought I've realised that these aren't mutually exclusive.

A market in scans sounds interesting, but would require some extra coding which we don't seem to have.
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Unread 22 Jun 2008, 01:36   #13
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Re: Paying for scans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
As the amount of dedicated scanners gets lower round for round due to nobody having the time anymore to be a dedicated scanner, I suggest a trade with the Universe scan system.

If you are desperate and cannot find anyone to do you a scan, you can buy them from the universe scan system. They are however not cheap. I suggest a 5Xprice of the normal cost of a scan. So that f.example a planetscan costs 5000 on the free market instead of 1000. (To simulate the supply and demand)

Limits to this is simple. A Universe scan system never has more than amps than the planet with most amps up to 100 amps which should be max(to protect the dedicated distorterplanets). And the Universe can only sell you scans that have been researched by one planet in the universe. (Ergo the highest scan possible becomes avaliable as the planets themselves develop them)
it will ruin the round of the most dist whores, and therefore takin another advantage of xans (after removing the init)
what about having the devolopment of this Universal Scan Systems on Overview, like: Universe Scan Department now has Unitscans available and has 10 Amps
Construction and Research of Scans should be somewhat slower then of a dedicated Scan Planet.

And apart from that, ressources as payment is too cheap, who cares about a few k resources when hes despearte for a newsie at eta1 or a jgp.

Pay those scans with XP!!!
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Unread 22 Jun 2008, 07:42   #14
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Re: Paying for scans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by M0RPH3US
it will ruin the round of the most dist whores, and therefore takin another advantage of xans (after removing the init)
what about having the devolopment of this Universal Scan Systems on Overview, like: Universe Scan Department now has Unitscans available and has 10 Amps
Construction and Research of Scans should be somewhat slower then of a dedicated Scan Planet.

And apart from that, ressources as payment is too cheap, who cares about a few k resources when hes despearte for a newsie at eta1 or a jgp.

Pay those scans with XP!!!
Did you read the suggestion at all? If you're not a distorter player with more than 100 distorters, then you're a bad distorterplayer..
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Unread 22 Jun 2008, 11:39   #15
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Re: Paying for scans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kargool
Did you read the suggestion at all? If you're not a distorter player with more than 100 distorters, then you're a bad distorterplayer..
No. The best times for distwhores are when they get to about 50 cons and start to pull ahead of scanners who aren't uber-active. Then when the distwhores reach 150 cons, these scanners start to catch up again, reducing the strength of dists as time goes on. What I'm trying to say is that distwhoring is most effective when you're between 50 and 150 cons.

Your suggestion to set the number of amps for the scan market to 100 basically halves this time. Since distwhoring has already lost strength compared to a few rounds ago (the removal of the limit on FCs is the main cause here), aforementioned suggestion will make distwhoring a useless excercise in futility.
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Unread 22 Jun 2008, 15:06   #16
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Re: Paying for scans.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
No. The best times for distwhores are when they get to about 50 cons and start to pull ahead of scanners who aren't uber-active. Then when the distwhores reach 150 cons, these scanners start to catch up again, reducing the strength of dists as time goes on. What I'm trying to say is that distwhoring is most effective when you're between 50 and 150 cons.

Your suggestion to set the number of amps for the scan market to 100 basically halves this time. Since distwhoring has already lost strength compared to a few rounds ago (the removal of the limit on FCs is the main cause here), aforementioned suggestion will make distwhoring a useless excercise in futility.
agreed ^^

now opinions on the paying with XP issue pls
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