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Unread 21 May 2008, 11:28   #1
Fatrick
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Cargo Ships

Im sure this has probably been said before, but I currently cant find a thread about it. As title says, I want cargo ships brought back. This round Ive seen targets in gal raids not claimed due to haveing 10-12mil res stockpiled. Members say 'is this a cunning plan to catch our ships' or 'is this guy inactive'. Either way they always end up not getting attacked. I reckon with reintroduction of cargo ships players attitudes may change towards these planets.

I know some of you will say 'but sire thats wot cov ops are for', and indeed they may well be, but cov ops are not availible to everyone and cannot be detected prior to launch to get defences in place.

So, what Im really getting at is a cargo ship class, not nessisarily the same ship class as pods, to steal stockpiled resources from target planets.
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Unread 21 May 2008, 11:43   #2
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Re: Cargo Ships

That makes no sense because if a planet gets incs, they spend their stockpiles and then there's nothing for the cargo ships to steal
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Unread 21 May 2008, 11:47   #3
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Re: Cargo Ships

Not always.

I know its probably got flawed reasoning written all over it, but i think it will be an additional thing to liven up the game a little, and frankly, thats all im after!
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Unread 21 May 2008, 11:53   #4
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Re: Cargo Ships

Good idea but maybe it will simply make more players to constantly hide res in production?
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Unread 21 May 2008, 11:58   #5
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Re: Cargo Ships

supose thats up to the player.....stockpile res and try and scare incs away or hide it in production and get incs you mite not have built for...
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Unread 21 May 2008, 12:17   #6
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Re: Cargo Ships

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Originally Posted by Fatrick
Not always.
You're right. Inactive newbs probably won't do it. I'll now leave it to you to conclude which planets will receive the pointy end of this suggestion, and which planets are not affected at all.

Further, the general consensus is that hidden production is a Bad Thing, because it can be undetectable. This suggestion encourages hiding your production (after all, if you don't, you'll get cargoed), and is as such moving the game in the opposite many of us would like to see it go.

Bad idea.
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Unread 21 May 2008, 12:20   #7
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Re: Cargo Ships

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
Further, the general consensus is that hidden production is a Bad Thing, because it can be undetectable. This suggestion encourages hiding your production (after all, if you don't, you'll get cargoed), and is as such moving the game in the opposite many of us would like to see it go.
Try convince teh Zikonian society Hiding res in production is also a tactic used by Xp-whores.
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Unread 21 May 2008, 13:12   #8
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Re: Cargo Ships

ok then.....Cargo Ships Mk II....

Send cargos along with your attack fleet and they claim some of the salvage from the battle as well as any res the planet may have stockpiled...
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Unread 21 May 2008, 13:44   #9
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Re: Cargo Ships

Quote:
Originally Posted by csillag
Try convince teh Zikonian society Hiding res in production is also a tactic used by Xp-whores.
When I say "general concensus", I exclude everyone who is incapable of looking beyond what it'd mean for his own little tactic, thus leaving only the people interested in overall balance.
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Unread 21 May 2008, 18:39   #10
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Re: Cargo Ships

we should be trying to eradicate hidden production not encourage it
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Unread 21 May 2008, 19:53   #11
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Re: Cargo Ships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatrick
ok then.....Cargo Ships Mk II....

Send cargos along with your attack fleet and they claim some of the salvage from the battle as well as any res the planet may have stockpiled...
this has potential method of abuse written all over it.

while i will agree that the production hiding is a bad thing, and i don't think anyone will disagree that attacking people with resource stocks and a high amount of factories is a bad idea - i'm not sure that cargo ships are the answer to that. granted covert ops do the same thing (steal resources), but with the increasing popularity of playing that way most people have made it a point to be completely immune to all covert ops (which allow them to stockpile, dist/amp whore, whatever).

i think it was suggested once that a research tree be implemented where it would limit how much you could stockpile (similar to roid research and how many you can mine) which would cause you to decide more strategically on what to research and when. with production hiding, i don't see this a viable implementation to limit stockpiling since it can just be put in production. however, if the production issue is fixed, then it could probably be one way to address it.

another suggestion would be to put a hard cap on the amount any planet in the universe could stock. after a certain limit (20mil each resource for example) it would be taken away as a 'universe tax' or something that would basically make it disappear.

in all honesty, i've never really stockpiled when i've played, but i know people that do. while some might think its a problem, albeit one that i haven't really ran into much, stockpiling is one of the smaller issues in PA right now.
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Unread 28 May 2008, 12:57   #12
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Re: Cargo Ships

I don't think setting a hard limit is a good idea, for 2 reasons:

1. Salvage, you get many resources at once
2. Not able to logon for a longer period (let's say 2 days) =48hrs x 500k res =24m, and I think many ppl might not login for 2 days for some times.

In both cases chances are real that you quickly get above the limit for a good reason other than stockpiling

Then you might say increase the limit, but that also renders it (almost) useless since only some ppl will be affected with the highest stockpiles.

CARGO SHIPS MkII (to make landing an atk and fight more attractive when you encounter defense)
About the cargo ships, I like the idea of being able to "steal" some of the salvage when you attack, it makes it more attractive to still land instead of pulling when you got defense. Nowadays if ppl see incoming defense fleets most of them pull, scare to loose ships. [B]When you also (can) receive salvage when you loose ships whilst attacking, more ppl will continue to land even when they encounter some extra defense.[/b] It'll make the game more dynamic imo
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Unread 28 May 2008, 13:03   #13
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Re: Cargo Ships

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitbiT
I like the idea of being able to "steal" some of the salvage when you attack, it makes it more attractive to still land instead of pulling when you got defense.
so if u crash u get res? hardly promoting any of the positive things about PA this thread is it? First stockpiling and now crashing. And ure thread hurt my eyes NitbiT. ow.
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Unread 28 May 2008, 13:28   #14
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Re: Cargo Ships

Maybe it should be a new thread (or I'm seeing it wrong ppl tend to pull to many times) but imo it should be more attractive or other ways to make more people land an attack if there is defense (not when it's heavily defended), from that point of view I was thinking of salvage during attack. Not for the purpose to be rewarded to crash.

Quote:
'hardly promoting any of the positive things about PA this thread is it? First stockpiling and now crashing.
PA still suffers from a (to) small (and decreasing) playerbase. As many more ppl in the forums I only try to think of ways to make PA more attractive and getting more ppl into it.

Quote:
'[DW]Entropy']so if u crash u get res?
If you crash you have no cargo ships thus also no salvage.


Compare to real life war:
When an army attacks and has damaged equipment/wrecked equipment they also take most of it that's still (partially)working with them, as long as they can transport it.
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Unread 28 May 2008, 13:53   #15
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Re: Cargo Ships

OK, im gonna combine two ideas here....

Have a stockpiling limit...lets say for arguements sake 2mil of each res...
Once you reach this limit your planet still mines but the res is put into a 'Storage facility'. This storage cannot be accessed by the planet to whom it belongs. Instead an attacker can send cargo ships and pod and harvest this stored res as well as capping roids...or he can only send cargos and only harvest the res.
Either way they can be defended against and have to actually land the planet in the usual manner to cap roids/res.
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Unread 28 May 2008, 14:49   #16
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Re: Cargo Ships

Quote:
Originally Posted by NitbiT
Compare to real life war:
i prefer not to as space warfare doesn't really resemble Afghanistan. Fair enough the principles are there but if you start employing modern warfare and tactics to PA it stops becoming a space simulation and more of a real world combat simulator.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatrick
Once you reach this limit your planet still mines but the res is put into a 'Storage facility'. This storage cannot be accessed by the planet to whom it belongs.
So resources are put into a building. Who builds it? the planet isnt going to as it uses up a construction for soemthing that doesn't benefit them in the slightest. Seems like a silly use for a building. Why would you have a storage shed for resources you aren't allowed to use. That like the intergalactic ISA?
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Unread 28 May 2008, 14:56   #17
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Re: Cargo Ships

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Originally Posted by [DW]Entropy
So resources are put into a building. Who builds it? the planet isnt going to as it uses up a construction for soemthing that doesn't benefit them in the slightest. Seems like a silly use for a building. Why would you have a storage shed for resources you aren't allowed to use. That like the intergalactic ISA?
Ok, maybe storage shed was the wrong term. How about if i called them 'Inaccesable Asteroid Fields'? Tho the name isnt the main thing, its the principles. Better this than the guy reachin the res limit due to not logging in and the universe losing it, may as well let someone benifit from this guys inactivity.
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Unread 28 May 2008, 14:59   #18
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Re: Cargo Ships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatrick
Better this than the guy reachin the res limit due to not logging in and the universe losing it, may as well let someone benifit from this guys inactivity.
but then this promotes farming. Harvesting inactive planets for res, meaning people come back, find no res and dont bother playing any more, sure its ok to punish inactive people, but it couldnt have a knock on effect
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Unread 29 May 2008, 11:27   #19
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Re: Cargo Ships

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
You're right. Inactive newbs probably won't do it. I'll now leave it to you to conclude which planets will receive the pointy end of this suggestion, and which planets are not affected at all.

Further, the general consensus is that hidden production is a Bad Thing, because it can be undetectable. This suggestion encourages hiding your production (after all, if you don't, you'll get cargoed), and is as such moving the game in the opposite many of us would like to see it go.

Bad idea.
Interestingly, i find the stick that inactive nubs receive when losing resources spent on ships which may be destroyed due inactivity, no less pointy than losing resources, not spent on ships, based on inactivity.

To say that having cargo ships encourages hidden prod is inaccurate. A player is just as likely to spend his resources to avoid losing them to cargoing, as he is to bank hacks. Allthough, yes, with bank hacking there is the possibility of increasing security, i highly doubt that a vast majority players are actually immune.

To negate people cargoing inactives, a planet value based cap can be used, similar to cov ops for example, or perhaps stealing according to attacking fleet value or percentage of total resources.

The new production formula, being implemented for next round, will make it quite difficult to hide prod and is also now detectable. This will cause many players to either build and show ,or stack instead. Hiding production, allthough still possible, becomes far less appealing than previously.

Curiously, you think this topic through whatsoever before coming to your hastily concluded judgement?

If its the concept of cargoing you find unappealing, perhaps using flawed logic to criticise concepts/implementation isnt ideal.
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Unread 29 May 2008, 13:04   #20
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Re: Cargo Ships

Quote:
Originally Posted by [JungleMuffin]
Interestingly, i find the stick that inactive nubs receive when losing resources spent on ships which may be destroyed due inactivity, no less pointy than losing resources, not spent on ships, based on inactivity.
I did say inactive planets would not be affected you know.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [JungleMuffin]
To say that having cargo ships encourages hidden prod is inaccurate. A player is just as likely to spend his resources to avoid losing them to cargoing, as he is to bank hacks. Allthough, yes, with bank hacking there is the possibility of increasing security, i highly doubt that a vast majority players are actually immune.
If people knew 8 ticks in advance they were getting bank hacked, many would spend their res. However, since that's not how cov ops work, and since it is how cargo ships work, yours is a flawed analogy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by [JungleMuffin]
The new production formula, being implemented for next round, will make it quite difficult to hide prod and is also now detectable. This will cause many players to either build and show ,or stack instead. Hiding production, allthough still possible, becomes far less appealing than previously.

Curiously, you think this topic through whatsoever before coming to your hastily concluded judgement?

If its the concept of cargoing you find unappealing, perhaps using flawed logic to criticise concepts/implementation isnt ideal.
I have not yet seen the new production formula, nor have I seen how it's "detectable", other than some vague claims made in some random annoucement. Further, that announcement was not made at the time I made my post, thus I'm not sure why you accuse me of "using flawed logic".

And finally, yes, the concept of cargo ships does not appeal to me, both for the reasons I mentioned in this thread (which are valid), as well as by what my gut is telling me. Because I realise that last bit is not exactly a useful argument, I didn't think it necessary to mention it.
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Unread 30 May 2008, 01:54   #21
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Re: Cargo Ships

Cargoes only used to taget resources moving between asteroids and the planet, though in the past they were able to stay for 3 ticks of combat so the cash could have been handy. So, in that respect, we're already talking about a big change in how they work to include a planet's stash.

Secondly, the argument that the presence of cargoes would re-inforce production-hording to avoid loosing cash needlessly when it can be hidden is valid. Assuming the planet is active enough to notice being attacked. Thus, potential stashes are probably small.

We believe that prod-hiding in the existing fashion is a bad thing.

Perhaps the (really obvious) solution; Cargoes steal partially completed ships?

That would encourage the use of cargoes and strongly discourage the practice of maintaining ships in prod for as long as possible. Major problem is that its terribly abusable. The limits of this abuse might be that partially completed ships need to be completed in your own factories (thus vulnerable to counter-steal), and maybe limitations on what race's ships/technology you can produce (eg, you can produce your own race's ships, but not others. This would work better if/when we move away from race dependent ships to technology dependent ships (eg, rather than the Spider built only by Caths, all races could build an EMP fighter at the expense of a Steal Fighter, Cloaked Fighter etc). But yeah, i'll just put that idea out there for others to shoot down.

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