So ND

[Jonas]

Seems you're not the same as last round. Far off really. So far ND is the alliance I'm most dissapointed to see the average score of... What happened? I'm thinking that you either lost many of your best players, or the average from last round were much higher than your real potential due to 1up helping you more than what was good for you. Your'e block is exactly the same as last round, so might be the competition aswell...1up being taken out atm, and the plan of using NoS ToF and SiN as flak didnt work again.

When are we gonna see you get back?

-Jonas-

[lokken]

Because i'm not playing for them.

true story!

[Buddah]

one reason is cause alot the good ones left, cause nd are just following 1up

[Jonas]

Wonder if it will be followig 1up up or down this round?

[The_Fish]

Compare the ranks at this point last round to where alliances finished the round.

It is far too early to say we are disappointing. We have had a slow start, but we have also seen a lot more incs than the alliances around us.

Come the end of the round, we will be where we always are (around the same place as HR)

[CrazySpoon]

Lots can happen still. Ranking doesnt say to much atm. As soon as other alliances start fighting eachother and ND gets some time to do what they use to do things might go better. We will see

[hook]

Originally Posted by The_Fish

Compare the ranks at this point last round to where alliances finished the round.

It is far too early to say we are disappointing. We have had a slow start, but we have also seen a lot more incs than the alliances around us.

Come the end of the round, we will be where we always are (around the same place as HR)

My personal experience so far (being hirr HC and all) is that most of the alliances seem to be getting a lot of incomings. After the first night out of protection, I spoke with Rabba, and his night had been exactly the same as ours... Red red red red red, oh, and red. Not much has changed since then. I ofcourse am aware of the political situation and how your last rounds' history aswell as the supposed 'blocking' in this round could give you guys a lot of incomings, but I just wouldn't be too sure the alliances around you have a much easier ride.

Defending this round seems tough, to be honest.

Hook

[Seth Mace]

The Universe is so small, there aint really any place to hide! Especially that ND have tried a 1member per gal tactic.

[Jonas]

Originally Posted by CrazySpoon

Lots can happen still. Ranking doesnt say to much atm. As soon as other alliances start fighting eachother and ND gets some time to do what they use to do things might go better. We will see

Lots can definatley happen. Ranking does say abit already, no doubt. I don't think ND will be able to nap themselves out of trouble this round.

-Jonas-

[[i2k]Xy]

ND are sexy, they will put on their purple th0ngs & fight back.

[Mek]

must admit they have had a slow start....but as always...any alliance can improve if they want to

[Neferti]

Good grief, 1 week into the round and you're writing us off already?

give us a bloody chance...

[lokken]

Originally Posted by Seth Mace

The Universe is so small, there aint really any place to hide! Especially that ND have tried a 1member per gal tactic.

Alliance trying to spread themselves out so that you can't focus an attack on them when you're hated for going with 1up last round?

Sounds pretty sensible to me. If that's true (I'm not playing) ND have made a declaration of intent that they believe they can defend against a larger amount of general incoming and have less need to worry about being focused upon by other alliances because they are so spread out. While 1up and Ex were kicking the shit out of each other last night, ND have a whopping gain in roidcount on pilkara. The key to their success as always will be to how organised they are in the attacking department. Their average doesn't seem to be too bad from reading pilkara. Infact it appears they might be catching up.

When people start focusing on specific alliances instead of raiding all over the shop, they'll cash in because you can't find many hubs if any to centre an attack upon.

[Game']

Actually Lokken it could also be a bad thing, as there is no-one in the galaxy to report the incomings to ND if the planet is not online, unless of course they are willing to make their co-ords public knowledge, and also presuming their galaxy mates will be ND friendily

[lokken]

Originally Posted by Game'

Actually Lokken it could also be a bad thing, as there is no-one in the galaxy to report the incomings to ND if the planet is not online, unless of course they are willing to make their co-ords public knowledge, and also presuming their galaxy mates will be ND friendily

I doubt it's 1 across the board, as there probably aren't enough galaxies. Reporting incomings for a gal mate has the incentive of preserving your galaxy score and rank, and ensures that they'll cover your back not to mention the handy element that you can collect some coords, on top of pulling away some hostile defence.

[furball]

Originally Posted by Game'

Actually Lokken it could also be a bad thing, as there is no-one in the galaxy to report the incomings to ND if the planet is not online, unless of course they are willing to make their co-ords public knowledge, and also presuming their galaxy mates will be ND friendily

Of course, those NDers might have been sensible enough to go into buddy packs with similarly active players, ones who would be perfectly happy to report incoming for them. And perhaps they might use relay channels like every other alliance does? Just a guess.

[Game']

Originally Posted by Nonentity

Of course, those NDers might have been sensible enough to go into buddy packs with similarly active players, ones who would be perfectly happy to report incoming for them. And perhaps they might use relay channels like every other alliance does? Just a guess.

Relay channels are stupid, as soon as you find one member and link him to a relay channel, that means everyone else using that relay channel is found too.

[Game']

Originally Posted by lokken

I doubt it's 1 across the board, as there probably aren't enough galaxies. Reporting incomings for a gal mate has the incentive of preserving your galaxy score and rank, and ensures that they'll cover your back not to mention the handy element that you can collect some coords, on top of pulling away some hostile defence.

In most cases yes reporting incoming for a galaxy mate results in that, but im guessing if its an LCH on and a ND has incoming he will chuckle away, i would anyway

[Shev]

Originally Posted by lokken

Alliance trying to spread themselves out so that you can't focus an attack on them when you're hated for going with 1up last round?

Sounds pretty sensible to me. If that's true (I'm not playing) ND have made a declaration of intent that they believe they can defend against a larger amount of general incoming and have less need to worry about being focused upon by other alliances because they are so spread out. While 1up and Ex were kicking the shit out of each other last night, ND have a whopping gain in roidcount on pilkara. The key to their success as always will be to how organised they are in the attacking department. Their average doesn't seem to be too bad from reading pilkara. Infact it appears they might be catching up.

When people start focusing on specific alliances instead of raiding all over the shop, they'll cash in because you can't find many hubs if any to centre an attack upon.

You're right Lokken, it's damn sensible. It's also what HR got flamed for by the ND/1up propaganda squad last round, which Seth is no doubt indicating.

And yeah, ND obviously had a good night last night. Rumours of their demise may be greatly overstated.

[furball]

Originally Posted by Game'

Relay channels are stupid, as soon as you find one member and link him to a relay channel, that means everyone else using that relay channel is found too.

True. But just look at 1up's policy - member creates a channel and puts Mario inside it, then 'locks' it (secret, etc). Voila, a lot of different relay channels which can't be linked together.

Besides, relay channels are a darn sight better than telling someone to pm an op in #alliance. Things have developed.

[Game']

Originally Posted by Nonentity

True. But just look at 1up's policy - member creates a channel and puts Mario inside it, then 'locks' it (secret, etc). Voila, a lot of different relay channels which can't be linked together.

Besides, relay channels are a darn sight better than telling someone to pm an op in #alliance. Things have developed.

Personnally id still prefer to have 2 alliance mates in galaxy with me, who will ensure incoming is reported, and also who i would be able to easily cross defend with, rather than chancing my arm that theres a few good players in my galaxy.

[furball]

Originally Posted by Game'

Personnally id still prefer to have 2 alliance mates in galaxy with me, who will ensure incoming is reported, and also who i would be able to easily cross defend with, rather than chancing my arm that theres a few good players in my galaxy.

How about buddying with friends in your galaxy who you can trust to report incomings at all hours for you. When those friends are in other powerful alliances as well, you achieve both the spreading out objective and the defence objective.

And since they're your friends, they'll happily defend you anyway. Besides, with the galaxy system of this round, you're chancing your arm on having good other galmates anyway, whether you buddy with your own alliance or different alliances.

Sounds like you didn't make many friends, Game.

[Game']

Originally Posted by Nonentity

How about buddying with friends in your galaxy who you can trust to report incomings at all hours for you. When those friends are in other powerful alliances as well, you achieve both the spreading out objective and the defence objective.

And since they're your friends, they'll happily defend you anyway. Besides, with the galaxy system of this round, you're chancing your arm on having good other galmates anyway, whether you buddy with your own alliance or different alliances.

Sounds like you didn't make many friends, Game.

Nah just the round i played i went with 3 1up's, as i didnt want to have to tell any friends who to attack, who not to attack, i cant defend them as its a retal etc etc you get the picture, i actually have some respect for my friends unlike some "come with me in a galaxy it will be great, but you cant attack X Y Z, and i cant defend you against X Y Z", yes its a BLAST!

REALLY

[The_Fish]

This 1 ND per group is bollocks tbh.

My buddy group is 3 ND. Most were planned with 2 ND's in it, some obviously ended up with 1 (hi Gate) some with 3.

and 2nd biggest average roid gain today. Proof that we are crap

[Banned]

Originally Posted by Game'

In most cases yes reporting incoming for a galaxy mate results in that, but im guessing if its an LCH on and a ND has incoming he will chuckle away, i would anyway

You're mean

[aNgRyDuCk]

always makes me laugh when people bring their crystal balls out so early in a round, truth is no one has a clue what will happen. As in every round, it all depends on a lot of stuff we don't know yet, play the game people, and good luck....this Miss Cleo stuff is old.

As for those of you who are already reserving ND's burial plot.....think what you want, post what you want, end of the day, ND is fine, as it always is....thats the thing that pisses most of our enemies off, we're gonna be ok, no matter what happens, because we have a strong community of good people. We always take care of our business, so play your game, we'll play ours, and at the end of the round, you can then post like you actually know something, until then....... we'll give ya all the rope you want...you can do the rest

[mens]

it's too damn early!
The winning planet could just as well not have signed up yet.
Thats how early it is.

[Gate]

Originally Posted by The_Fish

My buddy group is 3 ND. Most were planned with 2 ND's in it, some obviously ended up with 1 (hi Gate) some with 3.

Hi Fish

I <3 my gal, not only do I have a fluffy buddypack, but I randomly landed with Mek. He´s from an alliance made of nothing but Satan´s servants, but he´s the first PA player I´ve ever flirted with through SMS. True story.

As for ND´s failure to keep up, we did have a lot of general incoming, but for most nights I don´t think it´s fair to say that´s particularly more than the other alliances have received.

Instead, I feel it´s been a combination of 3 main factors.
1) Bad luck; we´ve had a little of this. Some of our co-ords (including mine) getting leaked pretty quickly to the likes of HR meant we possibly got gals with ND in getting priority over other gals with no intel. And, secondly, some of our targets have received an obscene amount of alliance defence, when a gal has little or no intel on it and it doesn´t look particularly powerful, it´s a surprise when pretty much every planet gets covered by an alliance, and not good for your roidings.

2) lack of fleet balance. Initially, many caths stocked res for CR, and terrans for DE especially, Sometimes this was repeated by ziks stocking for FR too. This has left many of our members woefully short of decent anti FI/CO (namely sentinels and phoenix, though all small ships prove useful in the right numbers). ND´s constant strength has been its defensive capabilities, but until the ships become available, the DCs and alliance-based mentality of most of the active NDers means pretty much nothing. Therefore, we´ve not yet been able to make the best use of our primary strength.

3) Our attacks. Typically an ND weak spot is our consistency, even though we´ve occasionally performed fantastic strikes. Some BCs have put in plenty of effort this round, but our tactics initially weren´t great (though, as you can see from today´s gains, they seem to have been fixed), with earlier launches, and single waves on multiple gals approach. Our refusal to co-operate on gals with other alliances, and to launch only a single wave has meant our attacks aren´´t quite as efficient. Compared to one of our gals getting a total of 21 waves on ND players in there, with tentative intel showing planets from 3 large alliances, that´´s not very efficient.

That is my critique anyhow. Don´t write us off yet, though maybe we were playing beyond our league last round.

[_Kila_]

Originally Posted by Seth Mace

The Universe is so small, there aint really any place to hide! Especially that ND have tried a 1member per gal tactic.

Wrong... I know buddy packs with 2 ND in them.

[The_Fish]

Originally Posted by Jonas

Lots can definatley happen. Ranking does say abit already, no doubt. I don't think ND will be able to nap themselves out of trouble this round.

-Jonas-

Have to bring you up on this point.

How exactly did we nap ourselves out of trouble last round? we were napped with 1up, yes. But we were enemies to a lot of alliances too, HR, LCH, Angels and VisioN to name a few. ND fought as hard as anyone last round and deserved to finish where we did. We may not finish that high again this round, but a lot of last rounds good position was to do with the way we fought our enemies.

[Jonas]

napped 1up NoS SiN ToF WP and HR last round iirc.

And for thoose NDers who read this as a "ND is crap" post, read again. I simply said im surprised the average is already this low, and questioned what could be the reason.

And ND has indeed gals with more than 1 ND in em. Some with 5 actually

-Jonas-

[Neferti]

If *I* recall correctly, we allied with HR for one or two attacks, but we didnt have a long-term NAP with them, we were soon back to our usual business

[aNgRyDuCk]

2 things, ND never napped HR last round, we may of threw a temporary cease fire up for like 4 days, thats it, first half of round all we did was trade roids with HR, and there are no galaxies with 5 ND, get your facts straight 007

[The_Fish]

Originally Posted by Jonas

napped 1up NoS SiN ToF WP and HR last round iirc.

And for thoose NDers who read this as a "ND is crap" post, read again. I simply said im surprised the average is already this low, and questioned what could be the reason.

And ND has indeed gals with more than 1 ND in em. Some with 5 actually

-Jonas-

Against Angels, VisioN, LCH, HR, MISTU and Vengeance

there were 2 blocks last round, and we certainly didn't nap our way out of trouble. We took more incs at crucial stages than anyone.

[Gate]

Originally Posted by Jonas

And for thoose NDers who read this as a "ND is crap" post, read again. I simply said im surprised the average is already this low, and questioned what could be the reason.

Is my previous post satisfying enough?

[Kjeldoran]

Originally Posted by The_Fish

Against Angels, VisioN, LCH, HR, MISTU and Vengeance

there were 2 blocks last round, and we certainly didn't nap our way out of trouble. We took more incs at crucial stages than anyone.

I'll tell you the same Angryduck told someone else ... GET YOU FKING FACTS STRAIGHT.

Angels wasn't blocked last round so don't name us either.

[Jonas]

What Kj says is pretty much right. The reason 1up/ND block won was because the others failed to put together a counter-block. They did some attacks together, but it was too late, and not well enough organized.

-Jonas-

[Treveler]

A round of Planetarion is all about stamina and ND proved last round that they don’t panic and give up just because someone sprints the first 100 meters of a marathon.

[Kargool]

Giving other alliances a headstarts only gives the alliance better roiding targets.

[Seth Mace]

Originally Posted by SethMace

The Universe is so small, there aint really any place to hide! Especially that ND have tried a 1member per gal tactic.

Originally Posted by _Kila_

Wrong... I know buddy packs with 2 ND in them.

Oh dear:/

Originally Posted by AngryDuck

2 things, ND never napped HR last round, we may of threw a temporary cease fire up for like 4 days, thats it, first half of round all we did was trade roids with HR

It was well longer then 4 days, more like 1-2 weeks. Not that this was intentional, both our allies were so busy with other things (HR attackin 1up, ND attacking LCH) that i suppose we were both pretty much pre-occupied elsewhere.

Originally Posted by The_Fish

there were 2 blocks last round, and we certainly didn't nap our way out of trouble. We took more incs at crucial stages than anyone.

The counter-block was sh1t tbh, formed too late and not all allies involved could focus on one thing for more then 5 ticks. Also by this time, many of the allies involved had serioulsy been bashed by ND/ 1up block and so had limited firepower.

Hmm, damn im getting deja-vu, havent we all flamed each other on R12 events before anyway?

[Neferti]

I could have sworn that at one point, HR and LCH and co were focusing the vast majority of their attacks on ND. This went on quite a while.

Of course this is not an official opinion!

[Seth Mace]

Originally Posted by Nerfti

I could have sworn that at one point, HR and LCH and co were focusing the vast majority of their attacks on ND. This went on quite a while.

Of course this is not an official opinion!

Lol, classic one that m8, the whole HR & LCH thing has been a reflex trolling come-back from players sided with 1up/ND for a few rounds now.

Not to mention ND were ofc apart of the first block movement of R12, well it makes such comments as yours raise the old "kettle calling the pot black" phrase.

[lokken]

Originally Posted by Seth Mace

Lol, classic one that m8, the whole HR & LCH thing has been a reflex trolling come-back from players sided with 1up/ND for a few rounds now.

Not to mention ND were ofc apart of the first block movement of R12, well it makes such comments as yours raise the old "kettle calling the pot black" phrase.

For starters, the moderators decide who's trolling - accusing people who disagree with you as being trolls is not appropriate, because it's a simple way of dismissing arguments which are there to be easily rebutted if they aren't true.

Moving on to your post. When you are under pressure by one or more alliances (LCH, LCH(B), HR), the targeted alliance (ND) has to take action - note that Nef never implied you had any agreements (you just assumed he did), merely that you were all targetting ND. By allying 1up, ND countered that threat, and the justification to that lies in the previous sentence.

No one would have blinked an eyelid had ND allied anyone else but ND had little option open to them (to expect them sit back and take a beating is foolish) and if anything ND HC showed foresight in taking the necessary steps. And for ND, possible chance of winning the round, finishing 3rd is a good performance so I'm sure ND have no qualms about their actions. I'd say Barrow is a pretty independently minded person, so I doubt ND are nothing but 'pro ND' rather than 'pro 1up' or whatever stigma you wish to pin on ND for some reason.

[Seth Mace]

Originally Posted by lokken

For starters, the moderators decide who's trolling - accusing people who disagree with you as being trolls is not appropriate, because it's a simple way of dismissing arguments which are there to be easily rebutted if they aren't true.

I didnt accuse him of trolling, i merely implied that my experience on this matter was the above, that trolls used the HR-LCH propaganda and this has been a commonly debated subject, that really doesnt need to be discussed again. So I dont think hes a troll, just his subject matter is that of troll sick:P

When you are under pressure by one or more alliances (LCH, LCH(B), HR), the targeted alliance (ND) has to take action

You are getting things mixed up here m8 because ND got the "counter-block" incomings because of their link with 1up. It wasnt the other way around although im sure like every alliance, they had nights of incomings from multiple allies before this.

- note that Nef never implied you had any agreements (you just assumed he did), merely that you were all targetting ND. By allying 1up, ND countered that threat, and the justification to that lies in the previous sentence.

No, again, you are wrong and how many times does this point have to be stated? ND (liek sin, tof, nos) joined 1up to take down Lch, hr ect ect and they did this because they were either bluffed by 1up or because they felt they could achieve a higher ranking by blocking. (im not saying the latter reason is bad or good btw)

I only posted about Nefs comment because i just found his remark funny, in that he highlighted the late counter-block as some kind of justification or reasoning, for ND to have formed their block a number of weeks before.

Do ND have some kind of time travel-paradox machine?:P

No one would have blinked an eyelid had ND allied anyone else but ND had little option open to them (to expect them sit back and take a beating is foolish) and if anything ND HC showed foresight in taking the necessary steps. And for ND, possible chance of winning the round, finishing 3rd is a good performance so I'm sure ND have no qualms about their actions.

They didnt suddenly get a block attacking them for no apparent reason and thus have a need to create a block.

ND allied the best alliance in the game and tipped the balance of the most important war for that round (ofc 1up vs lch). This is the reason LCH et al starting hitting them, because many saw this act as cheap. (if no1 else, then at least those involved in the counter-block;P).

I dont think any1 can really argue the reasoning for ND, they finished above HR and in top3 which was im sure some kind of target post. The only qualm is the political fallout for R13, well that block certainly lost the element of surprise that seemed to favour them so well in R12?

btw I agree with your barrow comment, i think hes a good HC and ive certainly got a lot of respect for him, like i have for you:P

[Neferti]

I wasn't trying to imply anything about blocks. I thought we were talking about how ND had 'NAPped its way out of trouble'. I was trying to point out that heavy incs from 2 or more of the biggest alliances = trouble.

Sorry if this upset people

[lokken]

Originally Posted by Seth Mace

1) You are getting things mixed up here m8 because ND got the "counter-block" incomings because of their link with 1up. It wasnt the other way around although im sure like every alliance, they had nights of incomings from multiple allies before this.

2) No, again, you are wrong and how many times does this point have to be stated? ND (liek sin, tof, nos) joined 1up to take down Lch, hr ect ect and they did this because they were either bluffed by 1up or because they felt they could achieve a higher ranking by blocking. (im not saying the latter reason is bad or good btw)

3)They didnt suddenly get a block attacking them for no apparent reason and thus have a need to create a block.

4) ND allied the best alliance in the game and tipped the balance of the most important war for that round (ofc 1up vs lch). This is the reason LCH et al starting hitting them, because many saw this act as cheap. (if no1 else, then at least those involved in the counter-block;P).

5) I dont think any1 can really argue the reasoning for ND, they finished above HR and in top3 which was im sure some kind of target post. The only qualm is the political fallout for R13, well that block certainly lost the element of surprise that seemed to favour them so well in R12?
btw I agree with your barrow comment, i think hes a good HC and ive certainly got a lot of respect for him, like i have for you:P

1) I agree with this. However, you got me wrong. ND's move was in response to initial levels of incoming, hence was justified. The counter block of LCH/HR whatever would also be justified because of what ND did.

2) This is mere speculation as to what ND HC might be thinking - 'bluffing by 1up' is the most speculative of the lot, and a pretty cheap shot. Like you, I don't know what they thought. However, as an officer at the time, I know where the incs came from and hence can make a logical connection as to ND/1up. And moreover, surely ever move we make is for ranking? We don't play to sit here and roll over for you out of some moral obligation.

3) The existence of your block didn't matter, see 1).

4) If you can suggest an alternative without 1up being on our side of the balance (when we have LCH and their alliances coming at us, hence can't ally them) I'd like to see it. The attitude of LCH and LCH(B) towards us at times was plain derogatory, so they were certainly a non-starter - I think they were shit towards us with or without 1up on our side.

5) The only predictability is by others forcing them into that position via their stigmatising of anyone who touches 1up and their closed mindedness. I have no liking for people with an unhealthy obsession to take down one alliance.

I'm delighted with your respect for me by the way, I'll stick it up on my wall of ego specially like.

As for finishing above HR, I'm still very pleased consider in the last few weeks we were worked our nuts off, although thanks for the assistance with a few horrendous calcs on your alliance's part

[Gate]

Originally Posted by big_horn

LCH(B)...... pls explain

I'm assuming Lokken means VisioN.

[Grog]

I've been playing with ND a long time & our start seems like a completely typical ND start.

We always start slow.

I'm sure we're right around where we were last rnd in the rankings at this point in the game.

It's not a sprint its a marathon.

:-) I know I'm gonna finish a lot higher then what my current rank is.

[Troll]

you guys just wait until you poke the bear enough for the hardcore Fleet commanders who SWORE they would take it easy this round decide to Feck up some top planets again like they did last round just for giggles. Theres a few greedy players in ND, but by and large when they catch wind of a massive strike for no roids like a fleet catch on a real prick "LO those 2 zik idiots from last round" they just line up at the gate.

Theres not many Livewires in ND, most of us are decent people I SWEAR

[Seth Mace]

Originally Posted by lokken

1) I agree with this. However, you got me wrong. ND's move was in response to initial levels of incoming, hence was justified. The counter block of LCH/HR whatever would also be justified because of what ND did.

2) This is mere speculation as to what ND HC might be thinking - 'bluffing by 1up' is the most speculative of the lot, and a pretty cheap shot. Like you, I don't know what they thought. However, as an officer at the time, I know where the incs came from and hence can make a logical connection as to ND/1up. And moreover, surely ever move we make is for ranking? We don't play to sit here and roll over for you out of some moral obligation.

3) If you can suggest an alternative without 1up being on our side of the balance (when we have LCH and their alliances coming at us, hence can't ally them) I'd like to see it. The attitude of LCH and LCH(B) towards us at times was plain derogatory, so they were certainly a non-starter - I think they were shit towards us with or without 1up on our side.

1) Well look at it this way, HR had been hitting ND for a few days (pre-ND/HR war) and as ive said before, we were about to target mistu that sunday night when ND + 3 other allies Hit HR. Did HR create a counter-block against ND because of this? No.

After mistu dropped ND started hitting LCH, they had no intention of hitting 1up because there was a relationship already in place. Before you say HR had the same with LCH, we hit LCh a few nights - go ask LCH HC. So you forced many allies (inc HR) to start hitting 1up/nd because it was in their best intentions to do so, none of us wanted to be bashed next by the Kingmaker.

2) Look at this from my perspective, it just makes ND seem an alliance who needs a lot of help from others to maintain a rank or to jump up one. This wasnt coordinating with a smaller ally, this was with the best ally in the game + 3 other med-small allies. This game revolves around the idea of "respect" & "honor" in various forms and politics at such a high level, they are integral. I suppose thats why blocking is villianised so much.

3) This is indeed the hardest part for any1 outside ND HC to comment on, i certainly dont know all the links they had at that particular moment in time. I just think they sealed their own fate when they helped 1up in the 1up-LCH war. This just wasnt needed, the war seemed balanced and this would have helped ND (and others) grow/ catch, 1up/LCH in their averages.

But they stepped in and drew the blockwar lines (did you see what i did there, clever or what!!?;P).