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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 17:27   #201
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Re: The BNP

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Originally Posted by Gate View Post
My main point was that I was wondering how the BNP hoped to achieve it, not that they would make a Britstapo and break my legs. (although maybe they would)
You think the BNP does want a gestapo type of police force? I think thats a belief fueled more by the media than the actual BNP policies. This is where you paste a link to Nick Griffin saying he wants just that

Quote:
Another little gem was that all NHS and MoD contracts would go to companies in the North East. I sure hope they told everyone who lives in the rest of Britain!
Politicians lying to (or hiding truths from) the public! That's never happened before.
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 17:34   #202
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Re: The BNP

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Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
Society teaches us to be socially accepting of race, so many people have that drummed out of them at an early age. War, well we have an army for that and yes, we do need an army. We have an army so when stupid countries like (past example; Germany) try to invade the world we can defend ourselves and morons like All System Go don't just sit back and do nothing. Sometimes you have to murder or be murdered. I know which I'd do.
I think you will find that I did not actually say we should not have an army.

There is however a difference between a genuinely defensive army (like the one you have suggested we have) and an army which is predominantly used for offensive reasons (i.e. the one we actually have).
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 17:42   #203
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Re: The BNP

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Originally Posted by Newt View Post
You think the BNP does want a gestapo type of police force? I think thats a belief fueled more by the media than the actual BNP policies. This is where you paste a link to Nick Griffin saying he wants just that
Quote:
Originally Posted by BNP Law and Order Policy
The BNP will crack down on crime and restore public safety and confidence. We will free the police and courts from the politically correct straitjacket that is stopping them from doing their job properly.
The liberal fixation with the ‘rights’ of criminals must be replaced by concern for the rights of victims, and the right of innocent people not to become victims.
We support the re-introduction of corporal punishment for petty criminals and vandals, and the restoration of capital punishment for paedophiles, terrorists and murderers as an option for judges in cases where their guilt is proven beyond dispute, as by DNA evidence or being caught red-handed.
A release from the shackles of personal rights and the use of corporal punishment for petty crime sounds pretty much exactly like the situation Gate described.
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 17:42   #204
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Re: The BNP

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Originally Posted by All Systems Go View Post
I think you will find that I did not actually say we should not have an army.

There is however a difference between a genuinely defensive army (like the one you have suggested we have) and an army which is predominantly used for offensive reasons (i.e. the one we actually have).
The human desire to conquer has been with us since forever.. why do you think its wrong?

People may join the army to defend the country. But once in the army you can't just go "WAHWAHWAH I REFUSE TO FIGHT ABROAD!!" - they do what the government, which we the people have elected, tells them to do.

Any other system where the army somehow did only what they think is ethically correct, ignoring the government, monarchy and so forth would be insane. But feel free to try and explain how such a system could be implemented, and then actually be a good thing for the country.

Until you come up with such a system, we'll keep labelling you as a moron for thinking soldiers are murderers. If anything its us the people who are the murderers for electing a shit government.

Quote:
Originally Posted by T
A release from the shackles of personal rights and the use of corporal punishment for petty crime sounds pretty much exactly like the situation Gate described.
Its your blinkered views on the BNP like this which really makes your contributions to this thread pointless. Yes the BNP want a police force with more power - but to start going "THEY WANT A GESTAPO" is just pathetic.
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 17:52   #205
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Re: The BNP

My blinkered view? That came directly from their website mate. I didn't even offer an opinion on it, just quoted their policy, as seen here.
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 17:55   #206
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Re: The BNP

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Originally Posted by T
My blinkered view? That came directly from their website mate. I didn't even offer an opinion on it, just quoted their policy.
Well, my point was more that ... lets say a gestapo type police force controlled state is 1 on the scale, and no police force is 0. Lets say at the moment we're at 0.2 on this scale. I'm more saying the BNP would push us up to around 0.5-0.6, which you are then rounding up to 1.0 to get hysteric about a gestapo-run country and fuel comparisons with nazi germany.
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 17:57   #207
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Re: The BNP

Well, your scale makes assumptions about where the actual Gestapo would rate on there as well. I'm not saying that the BNP would go straight in and institute the actual Gestapo, but they'd be pushing us a good distance in the wrong direction. It's all work we'll eventually have to undo when the revolution comes.
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 18:02   #208
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Re: The BNP

I strongly, vehemently, disagree with you. At the end of the day, when the BNP gets in power (yup, when ), it will still be a democracy. The BNP won't be able to just railroad their policies through. Liberals and so forth in the government will keep things sensible.

The BNP simply want more power given to the authorities - as I would say used to be the case (so really this is the start of the reform you were talking about on how shit this country has let its law & order get).

But with the media going doolally about racism and the nazis and so forth, everyone is panicking about a gestapo type society which is just a product of the media hysteria, not the BNP's policies.
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 18:05   #209
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Re: The BNP

It's a mix of both, although I agree the media has made things a lot worse. That's always the case though, not just with the BNP but with every political situation. I read through the Mirror's anti-BNP pullout the other day, and just couldn't keep a straight face. I've never seen such truly laughable journalism.
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 18:07   #210
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Re: The BNP

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Originally Posted by Newt View Post
The human desire to conquer has been with us since forever.. why do you think its wrong?
Apart from the fact that aggression by a nation state against another is prohibited by international law, there a a couple of erasons.

1) I find the killing/maiming/blowing the shit out of people to be morally abohrrent.

2) Imposing your will on others by means of force because we think it is 'better' is just as abhorrent.

3) The idea that because something is claimed to be 'natural' that it is somehow automatically justified is pure bullshit.*

*not going into detail, this has been handled elsewhere in this thread

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People may join the army to defend the country.
Then they are idiots with little understanding of what the army is actually used for.

Quote:
But once in the army you can't just go "WAHWAHWAH I REFUSE TO FIGHT ABROAD!!" - they do what the government, which we the people have elected, tells them to do.
Which other profession can't you leave if ordered to something which you consider to be morally objectionable?

Quote:
Any other system where the army somehow did only what they think is ethically correct, ignoring the government, monarchy and so forth would be insane. But feel free to try and explain how such a system could be implemented, and then actually be a good thing for the country.
There are a number of potentials, depending on what type of political system you would like to have. If you are interested, read up on them.

The first step would be to use the army for purely defensive reasons (i.e. not going to Iraq), which doesn't seem too challenging an idea.

One alternative*** to control by the government would be to hold a referendum and allow the general population decide if we should send our troops to war. Now, this could only be implemented if the there was not a national emergency (with executive powers in such times of strife).


***purely hypothetical, this is not necessarily an idea I support

I'd also like to add that the Queen doesn't actually have any power.**

**in the sense that her actually proclaiming anything would result in a constitutional meltdown

Quote:
Until you come up with such a system, we'll keep labelling you as a moron for thinking soldiers are murderers.
People who sign up to an organisation to learn to kill people (and then do so) are murders, or at least killers if that makes you feel better.

If anything its us the people who are the murderers for electing a shit government.[/quote]

I'm sorry, I don't recall 'blowing the shit out of Afghanistan and Iraq' being in the 2001 Labour Manifesto.

Quote:
Its your blinkered views on the BNP like this which really makes your contributions to this thread pointless.
It's policies are racist. It's leader is a self-confessed racist****. If there are any benefits to it's policies (which I largely doubt) then that is entirely coincidental.

I don't think it's 'blinkered' to have concerns about openly racist & fascist political parties. The concept that 'it can't happen in our time' is so unbelievebly nieve.

****he once derided the BBC for 'giving racism a bad name'
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 18:11   #211
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Re: The BNP

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Originally Posted by Newt View Post
I strongly, vehemently, disagree with you. At the end of the day, when the BNP gets in power (yup, when ), it will still be a democracy. The BNP won't be able to just railroad their policies through. Liberals and so forth in the government will keep things sensible.
By that logic, no democratic country could ever become a fascist dictatorship.

If only the Weimar Republic had been a democracy...
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 18:16   #212
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Re: The BNP

So we need an army, but you say anyone joining the army is immediately a murderer (or someone with murder in mind).

Do you understand where your argument is falling to pieces?

Also, lets say I believe that all animals are equal - you kill a fly, I call you a murderer. You go "lol hahaha right, ****ing idiot. Find me anything in the law which would agree with you".

Ok. I think your idea on the army in general is ****ing idiotic too. But its your opinion, plenty of people disagree with you. Do you understand? How what you think is right, doesn't make it actually true? Again, this is where a democracy works quite well, and you'd seemingly be in the minority.

Also, go find anything in the law which would make a solider a murderer (yes hte law, not a dictionary). You reply might be "well, the law allows soldiers to do it because our government is shit and allows it" - similarly, I could say you murdering a fly is only legal because our government condones it.

You have a view on things, its in the minority, that doesn't give you the right (this is a democracy, and I'm sure there are slander laws and such for a reason) to go around calling the army murderers. You're fine to express an opinion, but thats not what you're doing in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ASG
By that logic, no democratic country could ever become a fascist dictatorship.

If only the Weimar Republic had been a democracy...
God you are thick.

Comparing today's society (wit hthe media and internet) with the early 20th century is like comparing the early 20th century with the times of Jesus Christ. Grow a few brain cells... your opinions really are just beyond retarded.

edit: and while you may think invading iraw was for offensive reasons only, many people agree we had to do it for defence reasons. Again, you disagree (so do I), but that doesn't make you/us right. Understand?

Last edited by newt; 10 Jun 2009 at 18:24.
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 18:27   #213
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Re: The BNP

Yesterday I shot and killed two pigeons and two rabbits, am I murderer

One of the rabbits didn't die with a pellet in it's head I had to break its neck and it yelped. Oh lawd, I'm a cold hearted killer.


BTW if a soldier is given permission to shoot to kill, then they are breaking no laws, they have so to speak "a license to kill".

Iraq is as much as defence mission now as it is was offensive one. The Americans would have gone without us, and the civilians need protection from militants and freedom fighters. Wiithout us many would have died at the hands of the Iraqi militant groups. Same goes for Germany, South Africa, Pakistan, Afghanistan and wherever else we currently have soldiers deployed.
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 18:39   #214
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Re: The BNP

You shot and killed pigeons and rabbits? What with? you one of those posh knobs that goes hunting? Or did you get your pellet gun out in preston city center and go wild.
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 18:40   #215
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Re: The BNP

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Originally Posted by Newt View Post
You shot and killed pigeons and rabbits? What with? you one of those posh knobs that goes hunting? Or did you get your pellet gun out in preston city center and go wild.
Bedroom window --> Garden

It's just a .22 air rifle and perfectly legal

The pigeon tasted a bit tough
The rabbit was good though!
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 18:41   #216
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Re: The BNP

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Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
Bedroom window --> Garden

It's just a .22 air rifle and perfectly legal
For your sake I hope it is legal for mine I hope it isn't and someone reports you based on this thread. Would be quite cool.
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 18:53   #217
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Re: The BNP

[quote=Newt]So we need an army, but you say anyone joining the army is immediately a murderer (or someone with murder in mind).

Do you understand where your argument is falling to pieces?
Quote:

We need an army, but not the kind we have which is predominantly involved on offensive as opposed to defensive wars. Clear?

[qupte]Also, lets say I believe that all animals are equal - you kill a fly, I call you a murderer. You go "lol hahaha right, ****ing idiot. Find me anything in the law which would agree with you".

Ok. I think your idea on the army in general is ****ing idiotic too. But its your opinion, plenty of people disagree with you. Do you understand? How what you think is right, doesn't make it actually true? Again, this is where a democracy works quite well, and you'd seemingly be in the minority.
Quote:
I'd be in the minority because I believe the army should only be used for defensive purposes? Got any basis for that statement, or is it just hollow rhetoric?

Also, go find anything in the law which would make a solider a murderer (yes hte law, not a dictionary). You reply might be "well, the law allows soldiers to do it because our government is shit and allows it" - similarly, I could say you murdering a fly is only legal because our government condones it.

You have a view on things, its in the minority, that doesn't give you the right (this is a democracy, and I'm sure there are slander laws and such for a reason) to go around calling the army murderers. You're fine to express an opinion, but thats not what you're doing in this thread.
If you kill someone you are, by definition a killer. There are many justifications for killing someone, which changes by culture and time and many other things. Just because the killing (or potential killing) is condoned by the society in which we live, does not make it objectively valid.

I have given my (subjective) opinion on when it is valid to kill someone and my (objective) view of a killer is a killer when they kill someone or attempt to kill someone. It's really not very difficult.

Quote:
Comparing today's society (wit hthe media and internet) with the early 20th century is like comparing the early 20th century with the times of Jesus Christ. Grow a few brain cells... your opinions really are just beyond retarded.
The Weimar Republic actually had quite a lot of media actually. The internet is not actually some benevolent being which protects and enlightens us. It can be used for encouraging violence and authoritarianism as well as discouraging it. That you refuse to acknowledge at least the possibility of a fascist government is frankly bizarre.

The ponit about Weimar Germany was to indicate that your point about Britain being safe from Fascism because it is a democracy, was blatently false. I was not suggesting that this hypothetical fascist government was literally going to be Nazis Mark II.

Quote:
edit: and while you may think invading iraw was for offensive reasons only, many people agree we had to do it for defence reasons. Again, you disagree (so do I), but that doesn't make you/us right. Understand?
Those people would be wrong. Iraq had no WMD and was not actually a threat to anybody. That people are ignorant to certain truths does not make them right.
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 18:55   #218
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Re: The BNP

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Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
Iraq is as much as defence mission now as it is was offensive one. The Americans would have gone without us, and the civilians need protection from militants and freedom fighters. Wiithout us many would have died at the hands of the Iraqi militant groups.
So it's defensive becuse our attack made it a more dangerous place, so this justifies the war?

Quote:
Same goes for Germany... and wherever else we currently have soldiers deployed.
What? Just, what?
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 19:06   #219
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Re: The BNP

ASG - you're the first person to go on my ignore list on these forums Once I've figured out how to do it. Feel free to repay the favour - but talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. Difference is a brick wall doesn't spew out nonsensical crap [I was actually just talking with my mum about our discussion, she advised that I just ignore you. Good advice]. But I do find your opinions absolutely repulsive - I have no time for you.

(Also, I've based my reasons for the uk never becoming a fascist government on the media + internet + the democracy - unless something drastic causes it, eg, a nuclear world war. Not just on a democracy)

edit: I realise I might be being a bit emo here - but a number of my family have served in the army, and to hear you call them murderers makes my blood boil. Similarly if someone knows someone who's suffered due to racism I could understand them taking offense from me.

Last edited by newt; 10 Jun 2009 at 19:12.
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 19:34   #220
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Re: The BNP

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So it's defensive becuse our attack made it a more dangerous place, so this justifies the war?



What? Just, what?
Like I said, the Americans would have gone with or without us, so we should have sent troops to defend the civilian Iraqis even if we weren't offensive against Hussein.

In reply to "What? Just, what?" as far as I am aware, we still have occupation of Germany along with other NATO countries. You'd be surprised at the number of foreign troops still occupying Germany.
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 19:39   #221
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Re: The BNP

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ASG - you're the first person to go on my ignore list on these forums Once I've figured out how to do it. Feel free to repay the favour
Never done it. Don't intend to do it. I read what people have to say even if I don't like it. If you don't want to respond, then fine.

Quote:
(Also, I've based my reasons for the uk never becoming a fascist government on the media + internet + the democracy - unless something drastic causes it, eg, a nuclear world war. Not just on a democracy)
What about a total collapse of the world economy?

Quote:
edit: I realise I might be being a bit emo here - but a number of my family have served in the army, and to hear you call them murderers makes my blood boil.
Understandable. If I had members of my family in the army I would probably feel angry as well. However, that does not change the fact that they are trained (and used*) for wars which are offensive, not defensive.

Quote:
Similarly if someone knows someone who's suffered due to racism I could understand them taking offense from me.
It's not actually the same thing. Being a victim of racism is not a choice made by the victim. They do not choose to be racially abused. However, joining the Army is a consious choice. Whether you join with the experss aim of killing people or merely join as an idealist looking to protect the UK from foreign enemies, it does not change the ojbective fact that what they are doing is the same thing. At best, it suggests that the picture presented of the army (as a defensive force) is false and that joining the army during times of peace is based on misleading information.

For the record, soliders fighting against the Nazis in WWII were killers as well, although that does not take away from the genuinely defensive nature of fighting the Nazis. In contrast, Iraq was not a defensive war, it was purely offensive. If you believe(d) that the war was defensive then at best you are misguided and should have looked at the evidence more closely.

*exploited, if you like
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 19:41   #222
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Re: The BNP

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Originally Posted by Zeyi View Post
Like I said, the Americans would have gone with or without us, so we should have sent troops to defend the civilian Iraqis even if we weren't offensive against Hussein.
By that logic we should have been fighting the americans?



Quote:
In reply to "What? Just, what?" as far as I am aware, we still have occupation of Germany along with other NATO countries. You'd be surprised at the number of foreign troops still occupying Germany.
I'm aware there are foreign troops is Germany, but I think it is great distortion to refer to Germany as a 'occupied territory'.
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 20:56   #223
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Re: The BNP

Then your definition of "occupied" is obviously somewhat distorted.
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 21:11   #224
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Re: The BNP

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Then your definition of "occupied" is obviously somewhat distorted.
you do know that there is an american military presence in Britain?

are we occupied?
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 21:47   #225
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Re: The BNP

We welcome them here, I somewhat doubt Germany do.
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 22:00   #226
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Re: The BNP

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We welcome them here, I somewhat doubt Germany do.
uh huh.

Why is this thread like fly paper to the crazy?
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 22:18   #227
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Re: The BNP

Doesn't zeyi have a point? I don't know much about this, but it isnt a stretch of the imagination to think that our military presence in germany is probably part of something to do with the aftermath of WW2 (thus occupying), whereas the americans are in the uk just because we're military allies.

Someone get googl0ring.
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 22:18   #228
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Re: The BNP

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Originally Posted by Newt View Post
That's your opinion. Some people think we could just as likely have been born as random animals.
Which people? Are their opinions reasonable?

Quote:
Does that mean you shouldn't have "pride" in being a human being?
Well I don't. I'm happy I'm one but having pride in something i have no control over is undeservedly self-aggrandising and ridiculous.

Quote:
So you should go out with the monkeys in the zoo and start tossing shit about.
Yes this follows...

Quote:
Or maybe you think people that believe stuff like that are ****ing idiots. Well, thats what I think of you.
I don't think they're idiots any more than I think I'm an idiot. Everyone is an idiot in certain ways.

I wonder if you'll use another terrible physics analogy in your reply...
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 22:21   #229
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Re: The BNP

Nah, you're just another idiot going on my ignore list I wonder who yahwe will give reputation to before he can neg-rep me again. My money is on... I dunno
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 22:26   #230
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Re: The BNP

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Originally Posted by Newt View Post
Doesn't zeyi have a point?
no.

and I think you should spend more time wondering whether, 4 pages in, you have a point.

You've drawn a whole bunch of crazy with you. The argument is now flailing around with no real purpose in sight. What are you trying to achieve?
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 22:32   #231
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Re: The BNP

Erm a point about what? What argument? Why am I out to achieve something? I didn't realise posting on the forums was like a game of football or something.

Recently the thread has been based on 'are soldiers murderers' - just like in person, I would simply ignore idiots saying they are (once I determined that they are actually retards of the highest callibre), as I would someone trying to say paedophilia is good or something. I have no wish to read their opinions on anything at all - I just can't believe I got lured into discussing it.

Before that the thread was about the BNP. If you want to know my point about them, it hasn't changed since my first post, so go back and read it.
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 22:39   #232
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Re: The BNP

I think it was the jibe about the physics analogies that really hurt.
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 22:43   #233
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Re: The BNP

I would like you to ignore more people, newt.
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Unread 10 Jun 2009, 22:48   #234
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Re: The BNP

Good try, but nah you're not going on my ignore list You'll have to put up with my monthly 'find an mz post to attack' moment of greatness.
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Unread 11 Jun 2009, 02:21   #235
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Re: The BNP

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A release from the shackles of personal rights and the use of corporal punishment for petty crime sounds pretty much exactly like the situation Gate described.
I don't know why Newt took that description as my opinion.


It was intended to illustrate the populist stupidity of that particular policy. As far as I can see, they either a) can't do anything realistic to achieve that aim or b) do something massively over the top, like I described*.

Personally, I incline towards a). My general impression of the BNP is a bunch of people who're less intelligent even than normal politicians, full of populist ideas with no serious way of implementing them, outside of forcibly collapsing our economy and/or installing a police state.



*feel free to correct me.
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Unread 11 Jun 2009, 10:15   #236
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Re: The BNP

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Originally Posted by Newt View Post
Doesn't zeyi have a point? I don't know much about this, but it isnt a stretch of the imagination to think that our military presence in germany is probably part of something to do with the aftermath of WW2 (thus occupying), whereas the americans are in the uk just because we're military allies.

Someone get googl0ring.
We need to google to find out about NATO?


I'm sorry but you need to be either seriously deranged or seriously misinformed to describe Germany in 2009 as an occupied nation.
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Unread 11 Jun 2009, 10:48   #237
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Re: The BNP

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Originally Posted by Light View Post
Didnt britain get affected so badly by the economic crises due to the lax laws imposed on the bankers from the goverment? which labour was in power during that time?

But they're not stupid when they believe the shite that labour and consev's throw at them!

Politics doesnt work, as it requires politicians.. and all politicians are corrupt, selfish and lazy.
The lax laws you talk about have been vogue in all capitalist countries for pretty much all of my lifetime (I'm nearly 40). I think its a bit unfair to blame the current Labour government for that.

Yes, people are stupid when they believe the shit that Labour and the Conservatives throw at them, but I think that most people with some intelligence would agree that the shit thrown by Labour and the Tories is slightly more sophisticated than the idiocy which pours forth from the BNP.

But yes, you are right, its a fancier form of the same sort of thing - instead of appealing to brain damaged individuals that believe that immigration is the cause of their problems, they are appealing to middle England idiots that want to drive 4x4s and send their children to posh schools and are worried about their mortgages and pensions.

I disagree with you when you say that all politicians are corrupt and lazy.
I think that Ken Livingstone is a pretty decent bloke. I would like to buy him a pint and discuss newts (if not Newt) and ask him if he could get me Hugo Chavez's autograph.
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Unread 11 Jun 2009, 12:41   #238
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Re: The BNP

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
I'm sorry but you need to be either seriously deranged or seriously misinformed to describe Germany in 2009 as an occupied nation.
Since I started my post with "i don't know much about this...." its safe to assume the 'misinformed part' but thanks for trying to push through your intellectual superiority with the former comment [this is in jest before we derail the thread again].

Our army did use to occupy germany (a 'bit like' how we are occupying iraq atm). If we had never occupied germany, our army would not be there now. So at least it is completely different to how the USA have a military presence in the UK.

Also was there really no treaty signed in 1945 saying that hte allies should permanently have a military presence in germany or something? There probably wasn't, but there should have been.

edit: I should also add that for me 'occupied' means the army is there against the wishes of the country. You know, they don't have a say in it. If there is such a treaty, then that would make germany occupied for me... again, don't get me wrong, I'm just terribly misinformed probably. But again, it isnt that much of a stretch of the imagination for a misinformed chap to think it could be the case.

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Unread 11 Jun 2009, 13:10   #239
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Re: The BNP

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Originally Posted by Newt
Also was there really no treaty signed in 1945 saying that hte allies should permanently have a military presence in germany or something? There probably wasn't, but there should have been.
Why should there have been one?

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Originally Posted by Newt
I should also add that for me 'occupied' means the army is there against the wishes of the country.
I've never seen any research suggesting that a serious number of Germans are opposed to the presence of American troops. It's pretty much a non-issue for most people though, much like it is with American troops in the UK. As they don't actually do anything nobody really cares that much.
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Unread 11 Jun 2009, 13:12   #240
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Re: The BNP

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Originally Posted by Gate
Personally, I incline towards a). My general impression of the BNP is a bunch of people who're less intelligent even than normal politicians, full of populist ideas with no serious way of implementing them, outside of forcibly collapsing our economy and/or installing a police state.
Just go back to how law and order used to be in this country like 60yrs ago? Apart from the capital punishment stuff, thats more like ehmm dunno, 80? 100? years. That would be an excellent start, though the BNP do want a tiny bit more.

There are examples throughout the world of semi-gestapo type states (but to name 2, Saudi arabia and brunei) - but people still have plenty of liberties and live happy lives (less liberties than the uk atm). Difference is, over there there is 0 day-in-day-out crime. And I do mean, 0. It is sad, but at the end of the day, people need to be scared of commiting crime - then vast majority won't do it. That isn't the case here. Of course, there is a reasonably fine line between being scared to commit crime and jsut being scared in general (china).

I am all in favour of losing some of my liberties and running the 0.000001% chance risk of being unfairly incarcerated if it means crime goes down ****loads.

For example, the police know who are gang members and such in this country - but can't touch them. I like to think the BNP would just incarcerate them immediately. Maybe 1 person per mass-arrest would be unfairly treated. But 60million people would be better off. And yes, the removed fear factor of little or no crime would far outweigh the fear factor of a powerful police force.

I know people reading this are going to go "omg you want a china type system then?!?!" - all I can say to that is ... *shake head*. Or maybe it'll be "so you think the police should be able to arrest whoever they want then? and nothing can be done since the courts that would release you would also be releasing those gang members". Thats a valid point - for me it'll jsut be a case of readdressing the law system in this country. Eg with gang members, loads of circumstancial evidence should be enough to put them behind bars without the one 1000000% proof of it.

Whatever, the current liberal law system in this country is failing horrendously. It is a failure! Only the BNP seems to appreciate this while the other parties go on about "oh oh, we should erm teach young children that using knives to harm people is bad! THATS IT!!! BINGO!".

I do agree that the BNP are probably too unintelligent to work out a way of implementing their policies - but again I don't want the BNP in power <3 I want a large BNP vote to force the mainstream parties, who should be able to implement it in a just manner, to hop off the fence.

Last edited by newt; 11 Jun 2009 at 13:18.
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Unread 11 Jun 2009, 13:15   #241
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Re: The BNP

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Originally Posted by JonnyBGood View Post
Why should there have been one?
When a country has started 2 world wars (lets not get into technicalities - the germans started the wars!) in less then 30yrs, you should do everything in your power to make sure there's no chance it can happen again. A permanent military presence would do that.

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I've never seen any research suggesting that a serious number of Germans are opposed to the presence of American troops. It's pretty much a non-issue for most people though, much like it is with American troops in the UK. As they don't actually do anything nobody really cares that much.
Not what I was saying - most iraqis are probably happy with us being over there - but they're still occupied, because even if they weren't happy - **** 'em. We stay.
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Unread 11 Jun 2009, 13:28   #242
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Re: The BNP

Because I want 3 posts in a row to annoy forum-lovers everywhere worldwide, I just thought of a decent analogy of how I treat the BNP! Hurrah.

If I want to sell my tv (and you're interested), I might want 500quid for it. You may offer 300 (the current government) - I'll ask for 750 (the BNP) to try and force you up to the 500ish mark.
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Unread 11 Jun 2009, 13:36   #243
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Re: The BNP

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Without us many would have died at the hands of the Iraqi militant groups. Same goes for Germany, South Africa, Pakistan, Afghanistan and wherever else we currently have soldiers deployed.
The thing is JGB, that's my original post (above) where I mentioned soldiers "deployed" in Germany,. I just rattled off where we had soldiers from the top of my head - some may not even be accurate!

It's just these morons, not you, who can't find any real argument to my post so they pick up on irrelevant little bits, forceably misinterpret them and then stray off topic;blowing a comment which was not a major point of my post out of proportion in order to counter debate.

A lousy tactic I might add.
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Unread 11 Jun 2009, 13:37   #244
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Re: The BNP

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Originally Posted by Newt View Post
When a country has started 2 world wars (lets not get into technicalities - the germans started the wars!) in less then 30yrs, you should do everything in your power to make sure there's no chance it can happen again. A permanent military presence would do that.
So would extermination. Obviously nobody's in favour of exterminating all German people though. Do you think Germans are culturally or genetically more likely to start wars?

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Not what I was saying - most iraqis are probably happy with us being over there - but they're still occupied, because even if they weren't happy - **** 'em. We stay.
Why are we talking about Iraq all of a sudden? Wasn't the question whether Germany was occupied or not? I'm pretty sure very few people would argue that Iraq isn't occupied. Iraqi public opinion is very much anti-coalition forces by the way.
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Unread 11 Jun 2009, 13:50   #245
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Re: The BNP

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The thing is JGB, that's my original post (above) where I mentioned soldiers "deployed" in Germany,. I just rattled off where we had soldiers from the top of my head - some may not even be accurate!

It's just these morons, not you, who can't find any real argument to my post so they pick up on irrelevant little bits, forceably misinterpret them and then stray off topic;blowing a comment which was not a major point of my post out of proportion in order to counter debate.

A lousy tactic I might add.
Fair enough. To address your original point would you not agree that the presence and power of these militant groups is due to the fact the UK/US/whoever removed a strong leader who was very tough on crime? Nah, I'm only kidding there really! But obviously you can't use the "dangerous militant groups" argument to support the existence of an offensive army. Fair enough its role is much more defensive now, and I'm not going to be retarded enough to sit here claiming the only contribution by the various armed forces in Iraq is killing children (sanctions were far more effective at that anyways), they've built roads, power stations etc. But the problems they're dealing with are ones largely created by those same countries, either by supporting Saddam during the Cold War as an anti-communist bulwark or via economic sanctions which mainly affected the poorest people in Iraq during the 90s or during "shock and awe" when the combined air forces of the most powerful militaries on earth blew the shit out of whatever was left standing and was of any possible military utility.

Western armies since WWII have primarily , and rather disgracefully, been used as a tool for governments to bring about favourable changes internationally under the banner of fighting for freedom or human rights or any one of a myriad of other worthy causes. Certainly not for self-defence anyways.
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Unread 11 Jun 2009, 13:58   #246
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Re: The BNP

I agree completely, but I do feel the need for a military and I suppose their going to war (offensively) could have reasons behind them unknown to you or me.

Although it does all seem to cause negative consequences. For instance wasn't the US blowing 2 billion a week on Iraq or something daft? I can't remember where I read/heard it.
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Unread 11 Jun 2009, 14:03   #247
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Re: The BNP

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I agree completely, but I do feel the need for a military and I suppose their going to war (offensively) could have reasons behind them unknown to you or me.
I don't really object per se to the existence of a military, although I dislike the reality of nation-state militaries, arms races, wars etc. I'd prefer a lot a more international and democratic control of the actions of any military force. I definitely don't agree that we should support the idea that governments are free to declare war on people for reasons they can't or won't reveal to the people they're supposedly representing.

Quote:
Although it does all seem to cause negative consequences. For instance wasn't the US blowing 2 billion a week on Iraq or something daft? I can't remember where I read/heard it.
http://costofwar.com/
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Unread 11 Jun 2009, 14:04   #248
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Re: The BNP

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I agree completely, but I do feel the need for a military and I suppose their going to war (offensively) could have reasons behind them unknown to you or me.
Yeah, its prob. something to do with oil and money.
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Unread 11 Jun 2009, 14:07   #249
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Re: The BNP

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Western armies since WWII have primarily , and rather disgracefully, been used as a tool for governments to bring about favourable changes internationally under the banner of fighting for freedom or human rights or any one of a myriad of other worthy causes. Certainly not for self-defence anyways.
In your opinion! Lets assume that the government honestly thought Iraq had weapons of mass destruction (and a good reason to think so). Would they then be justified in invading in self defence?

Do you think we'd be justified in doing something about North Korea at the moment? (assuming such an action wouldn't trigger a nuclear war - so aye, totally hypothetical). And if so why? USA has nuclear weapons too, why aren't we invading them? Probably because we're all racists

Everyone feel free to ignore everything I say/ask on this area btw - I will be the first to admit I'm clueless about this kind of thing, but need to get my post-count up. I'm on the 7th page at the moment of top forums posters

edit:

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Originally Posted by J
I definitely don't agree that we should support the idea that governments are free to declare war on people for reasons they can't or won't reveal to the people they're supposedly representing.
I totally disagree there... do you honestly think the people should know every inner most political secret of our country? I mean I know I live with a 24/spooks view on things, but still... must be a lot of shit going on which would horrify people.
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Unread 11 Jun 2009, 14:13   #250
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Re: The BNP

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Yes, people are stupid when they believe the shit that Labour and the Conservatives throw at them, but I think that most people with some intelligence would agree that the shit thrown by Labour and the Tories is slightly more sophisticated than the idiocy which pours forth from the BNP.
If someone throws shit at me, i dont sit there and debate weither it is high quality shit or low grade shit...

You really cant use the argument that labours shit and conservatives shit is nicer.. As its only nicer for your views and as this is a democracy, its not only your views that count. BNP supports can and probably do use the same argument you have used, against Labour/Conservatives.
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