Planetarion Senate - Meeting about R10

[Heartless]

Originally posted by Razorback
i guess anyone complained about restrictions or changes which would make sense. there were many offers infact on the boards to this topic that they werent considered is neitehr the customers fault and you might want to check that in all means the customer has according to the eula no rights anyways unless his country gives him rights, But thats hairsplitting, and when a company starts to blame its customers for things getting out of hand its becoming ridiculous, the name admin comes from administrating not from "selling something you run yourself".

It's "creator" not "game admin". So it is more than just adminning the game.
Apart from this hairsplitting thing: I see people complaining about changes which make sense. Restricting alliances to a certain size is reasonable. If it wouldn't be done a whole block would join one alliance to exploit the advantages alliances will have in-game.

As i stated earlier a wise hand should be all whats needed to solve both problems and in no way i said it should be "prostayers" and vs "joiners" please dont try to put arguments into my mouth.

A wise and careful hand is currently working on solutions which benefit all. It is more like you assume that no human being can change itself and learn from mistakes made in the past. You think Planetarion Team and Creators made mistakes in the past therefore they get no trust in what they do for round 10. It's a reasonable thought structure considering mankind rarely learned from the past but the chance is there and believe me or not Spinner & Co do know Round 10 is something like a last chance to keep a game called Planetarion up and running.

Thats great but has nothing to do with r10 features as apparently only a small clique of ppl who are in pa team and who hang around pateam are getting infos while others are simply ignored. So you coming to this boards and saying "nanana if you would know what i know but im not gonna tell" is not really helping the issue.

Actually this small clique called PA Team do volunteer work for pa and help balancing the game, therefore they are more or less required to get details on Round 10 if they should help balancing it.

Isnt that in polite words the "you either buy it or not" argument just covered up abit ? You dont get the fact that ppl didnt want to change things, they want info and offer their views on changes and maybe get spinner to reconsider or rething some changes which might have negative effects. Another view cant hurt, can it ?

The question here is not if people want to change things or not. Spinner is more creating the game planetarion was supposed to be but never could be due to the lack of (financial) resources in previous rounds.

So infact you rate anyone apart from yourself as an silly idiot who isnt allowed to have his own views on things. or even "fears" to some extend. About it beeing helpfull, i might be wrong but customers dont have to be helpfull nor rational hehe.
And the meeting as stated a couple of times was indeed meant as an exchange of views and some alliances dont share certain views either. So i dont actually know where you got your generalisation from ? BTW a cause for all this might be different statements from spinner in CH and in his announcement towards r10. In one he is quiet pro alliances in the other he seems to be contra. So if someone gets fears or confusion it might not be entirely irrational.

That Spinner stated different things is normal. The game is not 100% finished and yet everyone demands to know everything about it. We could go the way that we tell all our plans at once but then people would start complaining afterwards if certain things did not come out as they were once planned before due to whatever reason.

[Cochese]

Originally posted by Aryn

coch. i think CC's idea of the senate is a lot better than yours (no offense.) it seems to be working a lot better as well. his looks more like a meeting to get ideas and general concensus about things.. yours seemed much more like the whole 'do what we want or we'll leave' thing.

Mine was nothing of the sort. I love PA and wouldn't leave unless it really turned crap.

However, you have to be forward sometimes, like now. The whole idea is, that people won't change unless they are forced to...and they'll still resist it with every ounce of strength they have. Instead of fighting the change, being at odds with Spinner, look at it in another perspective. Case and point: it took the "genesis" of Planetarion for r10 to bring about this Senate meeting.

I doubt it would have happened unless drastic changes were impending...and indeed, the previous Senates and ideas failed because there simply was no threat to alliances great enough to merit their cooperation.

Instead of fighting it, use the power to your advantage. That was what my idea was.

Not: "We represent X amount of players/dollars, so do xyz or else we'll leave!!!12"

...but instead: "We represent X amount of players/dollars, and we think you need to hear what we have to say, and take our opinions into consideration.".

You're looking at the latter through the preconception of the former.

[K-W]

[quote]Originally posted by Leshy
[b]

Originally posted by Leshy
I'm not saying that's not the case. It is true however, that large alliances want to win the game - using the rules to their maximum advantage. I do not see alliances saying "Using escorts or bashing newbies is 'not done' and is grounds for losing membership." I don't see alliances consciously not blocking in order not to upset the balance of the game.

Actually alliances are conciously not blocking, or are you not watching this round? What your saying is in fact not true. I suppose I cant speak for everyone, but I am more than capable of looking at pa as someone trying to win it, and as a game in general. your implication that I cannot is both insulting and rather ludacris. It just goes to show how far the villianization has gone in this game that even in a case like this you cant get it through your head that we arent mad scientists plotting every minute.

Originally posted by Leshy

They are doing that anyway. In my humble opinion, PA needs to stop focussing on keeping their old users from leaving, and instead look at how to attract new users and keep them.

We seem to have alot of graduates of the Spinner school of business here. What kind of assanine business plan aims to dump loyal customers, and then attempt to replace them. Are you reading waht you write? its like running a store, and telling your very loyal long time customers to bug off, while trying to attract people from the next town over. ITs a rediculous gamble, and is utterly unnecessary. Silly me, I think that PA should try to retain its players and build off them so as to actually do better rather than worse.

Originally posted by Leshy

Where's the evidence otherwise? I can understand how you have worries about what's coming, but I suggest you have a look first before you start the whole "Spinner is destroying the game" routine.

Erm leshy, if you dont see this as a huge gamble with bad odds you need to pull your head out of the ground. They are completely redoing the game. How can you possibly justify not giving it at least a 50% chance of really not working at all. You act like the people making PA are some great gaming geniuses who cant possibly fail. Optimism is a wonderful thing, but please attempt to be realistic here.

[Heartless]

Originally posted by K-W

We seem to have alot of graduates of the Spinner school of business here. What kind of assanine business plan aims to dump loyal customers, and then attempt to replace them. Are you reading waht you write? its like running a store, and telling your very loyal long time customers to bug off, while trying to attract people from the next town over. ITs a rediculous gamble, and is utterly unnecessary. Silly me, I think that PA should try to retain its players and build off them so as to actually do better rather than worse.

If you notice that you cannot build from your customers due to their behaviour you would not try to keep them. IF this is the case in Planetarion is another question, but some customers definately are.

Erm leshy, if you dont see this as a huge gamble with bad odds you need to pull your head out of the ground. They are completely redoing the game. How can you possibly justify not giving it at least a 50% chance of really not working at all. You act like the people making PA are some great gaming geniuses who cant possibly fail. Optimism is a wonderful thing, but please attempt to be realistic here.

Being realistic means: The game currently dies anyways. And I always use to say: Better release something new which works instead of fixing a broken thing on and on and still not get it working the way it should. And we do know that it could also fail.

[Leshy]

Originally posted by K-W
Actually alliances are conciously not blocking, or are you not watching this round?

A free short round where nothing is at stake. You seem to have forgotten R9 quite quickly.

your implication that I cannot is both insulting and rather ludacris.

I was talking about alliances in general, not about you. It's funny to see how you take it as a personal attack though - might I refer you to Focht's claim that 'anything goes as long as it's within the rules', regardless of what it does to the game?

dump loyal customers

I'd appreciate it if you stopped putting words into my mouth. I never spoke of dumping loyal customers, tyvm. What I said was that PA needs to start focussing on getting new players in, rather than trying to keep all the current users in. Most of the current users quit because of RL reasons - something PA cannot compete with. Those users need to be replaced if Planetarion is to survive, and thus the focus needs to shift to getting those new people in.

If you are claiming that current player mouth-to-mouth advertising and alliance players bringing in friends are effective enough, I'd like to know from you why the PA userbase has been dwindling ever since R4.

How can you possibly justify not giving it at least a 50% chance of really not working at all.

Planetarion has been going for 3 years. They've apparently done something right once. And from what I've seen, Round 10 is looking rather good.

If you want my guarantee that PA:X won't be failing, I can't give it to you. If you want to know whether I think Round 10 is going to be good, then I will fully say yes.

[Gayle29uk]

Thanks for the invite guys :/

I feel confident in saying VGN has done as much if not more than any other alliance to help take in and teach new players this round yet we don't get invited to your party. I guess we'll just have to go on putting something back into the game as well as taking and let you argue over whether Spinner owes you the right to be 'leet' or not.

[K-W]

Originally posted by Heartless
If you notice that you cannot build from your customers due to their behaviour you would not try to keep them. IF this is the case in Planetarion is another question, but some customers definately are.

No they arent. Looking at your loyal customers as the problem is quite possibly one of the stupidest ideas ive ever heard. The customers are gamers. The sheer ineptitude of that line of thinking astounds me. You really think that dumping the only customers you have in in a pipe dream of getting thousands of fresh new gamers, who I suppose you will have to dump in a year anyway is a good idea?

Originally posted by Heartless

Being realistic means: The game currently dies anyways. And I always use to say: Better release something new which works instead of fixing a broken thing on and on and still not get it working the way it should. And we do know that it could also fail.

You are assuming it will work, which is a really stupid assumption. Make changes fine. But at least keep your current customer base. I mean seriously.

[hAl]

I'm glad IE seemed one of the few people making sense at the meeting.

Many people there seem to blind to see that they are mostly responsible for these changes. The control of alliances and battlegroups is enourmous and looking at this meet a lot of people seem very scared to give up any of that control.

Frankly I think it would have been much better if creators would have gone a step further and had forced people randomly into in game alliances together to create new structures. These R10 plans so far leave way too much room for the current alliances to take full profit from.

People talk about these communities if they are sacred but from experience I know that any group of 150 people put togehter will bond quickly to form a community if that was a nescessity

hAl

[wakey]

You seem to all miss the real point Aryn is making (or perhaps I am).

Take a real look at the alliances invited, yes they may very well cover over half of the players in PA but with a few notable exceptions the half of PA they cover is the upper half. This is hence not a balanced group of people and theres no way with such a 'biased' group that you can never understand the game fully and thus your be using your power to fight for issues that only really effect the upper half. In many ways its an abuse of the power these weild for their own means, its sort of like the rl issue of the Tabacoo lobby in the states after 9/11 who used their power to get lighters removed off the banned objects to take ona flight because it would ahve an effect on the sales of tabacoo products even if it meant possible adverse effects for others.

The senate is a good idea but it needs the balance shifted to be more equal so that its fighting for causes that arent benificial to just a single group but to all of PA's players

[Zh|l]

Good god, why the talk of "you missed my alliance!!111".

Considering this was the first meeting of its kind I think more people should praise CC rather than slate him for not thinking about every single alliance in the game that exists.

Its all very well you saying you would have had more to contribute to the meeting, but I wonder exactly how many alliance leaders you can all name.

The organization CC achieved was truely paramount and impressive. If you honestly want to have a say, then just make sure you can attend the next meeting (if there is one).

I have to also say that accusations of this being the "upper" part of PA is ludricous. If smaller alliances dont get active or dance amongst the more public known alliances its extremely hard for them to be noticed and thus asked for any opinion. Saying the senate only achieved getting the upper tier of players present is foolhardy. The amount of alliances represented there is enough to cripple Planetarion entirely if they all left the game. There is no "abuse of power" here at all.

God. Utterly barmy.

[Lui]

Originally posted by Cochese
Funny how they all basically agreed on everything; it seems quite obvious the bases were covered, and no bias was present in that meeting.

I would not say that we agreed on everything. I would say that there was a united front on some certain key issues.

The senate is a good idea.

Lui

[hAl]

Originally posted by Zh|l
The amount of alliances represented there is enough to cripple Planetarion entirely if they all left the game. There is no "abuse of power" here at all.

I would hardly leave a tear if all of current alliances disbanded today !! Sure I like my alliance but frankly it is easy to create a new community very easy. Mayby it won't be very efficient but it will work fine as a community.

So the threat of alliances disbanding because of these measures if idle to say the least. A few hardcore alliance people might leave because of it but those are the people who are the most rigid in protesting the changes forced upon alliances so after that things will quickly shape into the new situation. I find it very sad that hardly any person in the senate meeting has looked at their own mistakes or at least poor choices from the past and how that has influenced the way the game is moving towards.

hAl

[Gayle29uk]

Originally posted by Lui
I would not say that we agreed on everything. I would say that there was a united front on some certain key issues.

The senate is a good idea.

Lui

The self proclaimed 'Senate' (please note the real PA Senate had a much wider composition) has almost no representation from most of the smaller alliances. Those with a core who will stick together in R10 and recruit from their regions, taking in new players and teaching them how it works. Guess what? We quite like the idea

[Lord_Olrik]

Originally posted by Gayle29uk
The self proclaimed 'Senate' (please note the real PA Senate had a much wider composition) has almost no representation from most of the smaller alliances. Those with a core who will stick together in R10 and recruit from their regions, taking in new players and teaching them how it works. Guess what? We quite like the idea

the the name of my lil bro i invite every small alliance to contact him (#newdawn) and talk to him about joining our initiative.
best time is after 1900 gametime as hes canadian.

greetings

[Razorback]

Originally posted by Gayle29uk
The self proclaimed 'Senate' (please note the real PA Senate had a much wider composition) has almost no representation from most of the smaller alliances. Those with a core who will stick together in R10 and recruit from their regions, taking in new players and teaching them how it works. Guess what? We quite like the idea

As it was said a couple of times you can step by anytime soon, there was never the selfproclaimed goal to represent everyone and the announcement was part of informing ppl about its existance. If you wish to step by do so, if you dont then dont.
Noone in the meeting had more right then others and seeing colcarp organised it im sure this is an excellent result for a single person. I will offer you the same as i did to Aryn, if you can do better within 0.5 weeks im more then willing to wait on your pm and to see your version of the senate. Till you put money where your mouth is i think CC deserves some respect for his good work,

[JonnyBGood]

Originally posted by Razorback
Till you put money where your mouth is i think CC deserves some respect for his good work,

I'd definitely agree. Getting that many people together on such a short notice is a lot better than I'd imagine possible. If the offer is open to all alliances I don't really see the problem. Perhaps now that everyone is aware of it's existence those HCs who were not in attendance can provide a means of getting in contact with them for any future meetings?

[Razorback]

Originally posted by hAl
hAl

you should work on your moodtwists, either you are posting all day long apocalyptic visions of how pa will fail and burn or you post all day long how bright the future is and how much a cleaning chaos will help.

A point you fail to see is the fact that it needs someoen to do the work and i think pa would be alot poorer if they lose some of their highprofile workers, even on the customersside.
You were one of the loudest supporters of how much a random round would rock, i dont really care but the 2 times i had lately random rounds i ended in totally inactive gals filled with cheaters and multiplanets. So please dont try to generalize always on the huge positive effects, because just because you seem to be only happy when it rains or you dont care about your friends or alliancem8s or because you reached the point where you gave up on everything justifies your opinion not to be more valid then anyone elses. Because i know if r10 will be utter crap you will be one of the loudest boardcryers.

[Heartless]

Originally posted by Razorback

A point you fail to see is the fact that it needs someoen to do the work and i think pa would be alot poorer if they lose some of their highprofile workers, even on the customersside.

Then tell me what good did these customerside workers do?

They cried loud enough to get salvage-formula changed so that bashing gets easier again.
They cried loud enough to keep their private galaxies for quite a few rounds and helped preventing giving new players easier contact to experienced players.
They cried loud enough to get an attack limit of only 20% so that newbies could get more juicy before someone roids them.

I don't see your so called "highprofile workers" from "the customersside" doing anything good in getting new players.

[K-W]

Originally posted by Heartless
Then tell me what good did these customerside workers do?

They cried loud enough to get salvage-formula changed so that bashing gets easier again.
They cried loud enough to keep their private galaxies for quite a few rounds and helped preventing giving new players easier contact to experienced players.
They cried loud enough to get an attack limit of only 20% so that newbies could get more juicy before someone roids them.

I don't see your so called "highprofile workers" from "the customersside" doing anything good in getting new players.

I dont see you solving world hunger.

Point being the simple fact that a problem isnt solved doesnt make any one person responsible by default. Its fairly obvious to anyone with two cents that getting new players to play a browser based game that costs money is a monumental task. Pa team have to be optimistic, if not they have no reason to keep trying, im just not sure what your excuse is. Why do people insist on acting like there are 10,000 people just waiting till the big allainces leave to play PA?

[Sonnenbomber]

Originally posted by Heartless
Then tell me what good did these customerside workers do?

They cried loud enough to get salvage-formula changed so that bashing gets easier again.
They cried loud enough to keep their private galaxies for quite a few rounds and helped preventing giving new players easier contact to experienced players.
They cried loud enough to get an attack limit of only 20% so that newbies could get more juicy before someone roids them.

I don't see your so called "highprofile workers" from "the customersside" doing anything good in getting new players.

who made the fault when the big allys get changes like they want? would be new for me if any alliance HC can change the gamerules hisself. the right to ask for changes or make suggestions has every customer I guess. but what of this changes get real, thats still the decission of the creators I think.

btw: I also see the change of the salvage-formula - its long ago I know - as fault, but why should I cry for the old one when Iam in an alliance with a very good organised defence? is it my problem when roiding gets a bit easier for me then?

its the job of the creators to balance the game, not ours.

but in the current situation its all a bit different. we just had a meeting of 16 alliances, nearly all of them sees the planned changes very critical. and that are not only the top alliances which powerblock each round and which you try to blame for some changes which were made during the last rounds. there were also allys like Rock, IPC, Templar in which werent on the winnig side the last rounds or in one of this "evil" powerblocks which allegedly ruined the game.
this 16 alliances represente around 2/3 of all "customers" which played R9. that would mean over 3000 planets of 4800 you had.
ofc not all will quit if their ally disband or splitt, but I think its only fair and understandable when we think and discuss about the planned changes because a lot of loyal members also see some points very critical. we dont want to blame anyone or affect the creators which definitly have an hard job to do. our onliest goal is it to get a constructive dialogue with them.
if the creators and the PA team dont care about our opinions, then I cant change it but at least we want to try.
we also love this game and want that it continues.
Sonnenbomber out.

PS: where is the "Ich bin schuldig" and the "Proud to be a ToT pe0n" in your profile heartless?

[Razorback]

and any of these changes alone is guilty for the demishing playerbase ?

Salvage, 25% is quiet alot imo you can still run your ships in 90% of the cases.

Newbiebashing, as many times before suggested a system of changing capping accoding to the sizes compared to each other would have sorted it but we went for simple solutions. And the value of 20% was not "lowered" within the early rounds there was no % at all so infact you cant claim its their fault we went with "only" 20%
Towards Private or Random gals. I doubt that was the cause of dropping numbers, seeing r4 was the first private round and had the highest playerbase ever.... and like Hal and others there is no "the customerside". Many voices many views. I doubt spinner ever went with the majority seeing he kept ppl like Goldeneye and Zokum (?) trimming the stats

[Scouse]

Given that everyone is represented and such I think the Senate is a good idea. Always have.


However, I don't think inviting 1 command member of every alliance suffices. This game isn't entirely about alliances.



I think it's a bit unfair to complain when they've done nothing wrong yet. Wait till they actually do something, and it turns out bad, then you can all have a field day.

[Sonnenbomber]

Originally posted by Scouse
Given that everyone is represented and such I think the Senate is a good idea. Always have.


However, I don't think inviting 1 command member of every alliance suffices. This game isn't entirely about alliances.



I think it's a bit unfair to complain when they've done nothing wrong yet. Wait till they actually do something, and it turns out bad, then you can all have a field day.

Scouse what is your problem?
Vision we tried to contact, no HC was available. Oly doenst play R10 if the informations I got are correct.
and TFD, Ety and some other small allys we didnt know who's running this allys atm or we didnt find any available HC.
and anyway we dont claim to represent the whole PA community, we represent the members of this 16 allys which participate.
and I pretty sure there will be 1 or 2 more meetings before R10 starts and if there would be more allys in, we would be very happy about.

[Heartless]

And they still do not recognize it...

The first Senate meeting where alliance's discuss their failures in the previous rounds and agree on changing will get my attention.

I don't want to say Alliances were the only factor to get the game loosing players instead of getting new ones.
But they played a major role in it, at least the so-called top alliances. And analyzing themselves, and their behaviour would be a first step to intend to listen to alliance hc senates, from my point of view that is.

If people have fears they can always come on IRC and have a nice chat with me. Olrik or kaos for example can confirm that I really enjoy those pm's and that I listen to people. It's just all a matter of how to do things.

[Sonnenbomber]

well, its useless to speak about failures because we all know what these "failures" are. of course the powerblocks...
but lets take R9 as example.
WebAngel formed VOM (later VVOMM) and made pretty aggressiv politics. so there were a lot alliances which wanted to see this block dead. Also the former PA creator Zeus encouraged some alliance HCs to form a big couterblock against them.
the result was the temporary WEET/NaR cooperation to destroy them.
and such things where a large group of alliances want to see another ally or block dead, they will cooperate for a while.
and I dont see how avoid this in the future.

If people have fears they can always come on IRC and have a nice chat with me. Olrik or kaos for example can confirm that I really enjoy those pm's and that I listen to people. It's just all a matter of how to do things.

nothing else we tried with this "senate meeting". we just wanted to sort out what the opinions and positions of the current alliances are, so that we can get such an discussion. and in my eyes its much better when we know the opinions of a large group of customers. because its easier to discuss and make suggestions when you know what the rest of the universe wants. nothing else was the goal of this meeting and I dont know why we shouldnt make it also public.

[K-W]

Originally posted by Heartless
And they still do not recognize it...

The first Senate meeting where alliance's discuss their failures in the previous rounds and agree on changing will get my attention.

I don't want to say Alliances were the only factor to get the game loosing players instead of getting new ones.
But they played a major role in it, at least the so-called top alliances. And analyzing themselves, and their behaviour would be a first step to intend to listen to alliance hc senates, from my point of view that is.

If people have fears they can always come on IRC and have a nice chat with me. Olrik or kaos for example can confirm that I really enjoy those pm's and that I listen to people. It's just all a matter of how to do things.

Lets blame the players for playing. Those evil bastards. How could we ever have been so stupid to sign up for a game, and try to achieve the objectives set out in the game!

THe current players are not mutant aliens from planet X. New players wont play the game any differently if the game is the same, and the current players wont play a new game any different than new players.

When designing round 10, they need to not try and dismantle allainces. Alliances are waht have made PA PA, they need to find a way to make a game that works with alliances. Im not saying thats not what they are doing. And ffs im not saying Im not saying they need to protect our ability to bash, but if they are thinking along the same lines as you, we are doomed.

[Faberius]

It is an ironic fact that I was the one who also organized the original PA Senate meeting (in the old YHQ private channel, #boxers) and although we didn't invite any creators to that meeting, they sort of showed up and took control. Anyone thinking that this meeting is substantial different in motivation from the original one is wrong. The Primary Objective of the Senate is to induce an atmosphere of consultation by publically voicing our collective concerns. We do not want to run the game.

I also think that a lot of the comments praising me about this are wrong. I couldn't have and didn't do this on my own, Eylisia was the person who basically ran the meeting, Sonnenbomber helped me get some alliances I didn't have hc contacts in on board and I really only got the ball moving. Everyone that attended that meeting is now carrying it.

As for complaints about non-representation. Any alliance, provided their HC are online at the moment, (and we actually know of you, I've never heard of CP before) was and is invited to attend. If you'd like to get in on our next meeting please PM me, although Olrik is right, later the better. I'm not sure about community non alliance representatives, even in the first meeting, when those people were allowed, it was HCs from Legion, Deus, and Xanadu who came in, and because they still had an impact on planetarion politics.

The idea of a Senate that represents the concerns of alliances as represented by their leaders is a good one. It is the reason I've had "Planetarion Senator" in my sig on these boards for the last 10 months. And our bias is nothing more than people who want to see their alliances do well...coincidentally, for that to happen, the game has to do well to.

[Zahadum]

Originally posted by Cochese
Seeing as ColCarp organized it, I doubt he refrained from inviting anyone...especially on a list that includes both IPC and Eclipse...two alliances that are on ends of the proverbial spectrum.

Funny how they all basically agreed on everything; it seems quite obvious the bases were covered, and no bias was present in that meeting.

Had certain alliances on that list been excluded then yes, it certainly would have been a biased discussion.

I am interested to know who you think was there that shouldn't have been, and who wasn't there that should have.

This hole senate idea is a complete waste of time if alliances are being left out of these "meetings". It kind of defeats the purpose of creating some type of UN for PA. I believe ETY was left out of the meeting because of ColCarps massive EGO. If any of you knew ColCarp you know he has a dark side he doesnt show many people. ColCarp if you intend to bring back the senate I suggest you put away your bag of tricks. Because I find it hard to believe you can forget about an alliance that stayed allied to you for 2/3 rounds. It goes to show what your true agenda really is. I find it hard to believe you couldnt contact us. Both Korenchkin and my irc clients are online 24/7 + we log everything. If you want people to think anything of the "senate" I suggest that someone else should be running it. Because ColCarp is far from the impartial being that he makes himself appear to be.

Disappointed beyond words,
Prometheus

[Faberius]

Am I still on ignore. You had better check that...




You're of course welcome to come to the next meeting, but my inability to talk to you is a sort of hinderence to me


PS: I'm not running it, btw.

[Obfuscator]

As far as I'm concerned, as long as no one gets the bright idea of turning the Senate into some sort of PA-UN, the Senate is more than welcome to have its little meetings and pontificate all it wants.

[K-W]

Oh come on, theres nothing a war game needs more than an organization for peace.

[Aryn]

if i had a pin........
it's funny how not only do you guys not understand that there are other players besides the 16 alliances you mentioned.. but that you constantly refuse to try and put yourselves in their shoes.

i'm willing to make a bet that if the top 16 alliances all quit, the remainder of the universe would breathe a huge sigh of relief (suddnely they're not the ones getting bashed all the time) and some of the smaller alliances will grow. these people will start to have MORE fun because 'omg! maybe i can actually get in the top 100!!' they'll start inviting their friends because 'hey.. you know that game i play? it's gotten cool again! you should try!' and 'you should play again m8.. those nasty alliances that made you quit are all gone!'

true the game would be completely different and prolly never the same.. but i'd sure as hell still play.

[Faberius]

Originally posted by Obfuscator
As far as I'm concerned, as long as no one gets the bright idea of turning the Senate into some sort of PA-UN, the Senate is more than welcome to have its little meetings and pontificate all it wants.

Pontificate is a cool word, although I don't know if it really applies in this sense. Unless you see us as more of a religious body, which would be weird and neat.

However if that was so, you have to know that you're first in line to be our St. Paul

[Faberius]

Originally posted by Aryn
if i had a pin........
it's funny how not only do you guys not understand that there are other players besides the 16 alliances you mentioned.. but that you constantly refuse to try and put yourselves in their shoes.

i'm willing to make a bet that if the top 16 alliances all quit, the remainder of the universe would breathe a huge sigh of relief (suddnely they're not the ones getting bashed all the time) and some of the smaller alliances will grow. these people will start to have MORE fun because 'omg! maybe i can actually get in the top 100!!' they'll start inviting their friends because 'hey.. you know that game i play? it's gotten cool again! you should try!' and 'you should play again m8.. those nasty alliances that made you quit are all gone!'

true the game would be completely different and prolly never the same.. but i'd sure as hell still play.

I'm sorry, did I just read correctly? Sixteen top alliances? Is the Senate some sort of exclusive club which is based on military power? While its quite true that all major alliances are represented in the Senate, as I think we've already mentioned, we'd like that to turn into "all real alliances are represented". Contrary to you or Prometheus' thinking, we do comprehend that there are people outside of us, people who may next week be a part of the Senate. The only exclusiveness about the current Senate is that we all belong to the "we were around at 2100 game time club"

[Haarken]

Originally posted by Zahadum
...ColCarp is far from the impartial being that he makes himself appear to be.

I was wondering if you could tell me where we can find this mythical impartial person Prometheus?

Originally posted by Aryn
...it's funny how not only do you guys not understand that there are other players besides the 16 alliances you mentioned..

How many people do these other alliances represent? I'm willing to guess it's a much smaller amount, plus there has to be a point where some alliances are excluded or can my 1 man alliance have representation at the Senate?.

Having been a HC for a smaller alliance for two rounds I am quite aware of the bashings that can be handed out by members of large alliances, but I don't think that I would ever like to see any of those large alliances leave the game, for a start most of the members in my alliance went on to one of the 16 alliances or one of those great alliances that have been disbanded, so I think that it is a little unfair to say that without large alliances PA would be better, because honestly most small alliance HC wouldnt know what to do without them.

[Cochese]

Originally posted by Aryn

i'm willing to make a bet that if the top 16 alliances all quit, the remainder of the universe would breathe a huge sigh of relief (suddnely they're not the ones getting bashed all the time) and some of the smaller alliances will grow. these people will start to have MORE fun because 'omg! maybe i can actually get in the top 100!!' they'll start inviting their friends because 'hey.. you know that game i play? it's gotten cool again! you should try!' and 'you should play again m8.. those nasty alliances that made you quit are all gone!'

How long do you suppose it would take "new" elite, baby-eating, powerblocking, uber-nasty alliances to form in such a "wide open to be utterly owned" universe? It's human nature to evolve, and alliances will evolve to take the place of any that leave. Such is the way of things.

Trust me, the bashed will become the bashers, and your casual/small alliance populated universe will become even more easily stagnated than it did last round due to having half the playerbase, resulting in an even small buffer between the winners/losers.

You can't honestly be so naive to think history won't repeat itself, and this won't all happen over again, in the PA universe you describe.

[wakey]

Originally posted by Zh|l
Good god, why the talk of "you missed my alliance!!111".

Considering this was the first meeting of its kind I think more people should praise CC rather than slate him for not thinking about every single alliance in the game that exists.

Its all very well you saying you would have had more to contribute to the meeting, but I wonder exactly how many alliance leaders you can all name.

The organization CC achieved was truely paramount and impressive. If you honestly want to have a say, then just make sure you can attend the next meeting (if there is one).

I have to also say that accusations of this being the "upper" part of PA is ludricous. If smaller alliances dont get active or dance amongst the more public known alliances its extremely hard for them to be noticed and thus asked for any opinion. Saying the senate only achieved getting the upper tier of players present is foolhardy. The amount of alliances represented there is enough to cripple Planetarion entirely if they all left the game. There is no "abuse of power" here at all.

God. Utterly barmy.

First of all I didnt slate CC, he did a good job trying to organise this, just there are a few problems which a few of us have picked up on, just like this group wishes to do with spinner. If you arent willing to take this on board then is this group really in a position to ask spinner to take what they say on board. I think not

Secondly how is it the smaller alliances responsability to get themselves invited. When most smaller alliances post here they get attacked by the bigger alliances thus they feel little need to post here and its not as if the bigger alliances want to know the smaller alliances exist. If this group wants to acheive anything then its their resposability to ensure fair crosssection of teh community is represented so anything they request changed is for teh good of the game and not just the upper alliances.

oh and Zh|l I like your very contridictor last few sentances, you basically issue a threat saying the alliances represented could cripple PA and then you say you arent abusing your power. How exactly is issuing such threats to get changes that the top alliances want not abusing your power

[wakey]

Originally posted by Faberius
I'm sorry, did I just read correctly? Sixteen top alliances? Is the Senate some sort of exclusive club which is based on military power? While its quite true that all major alliances are represented in the Senate, as I think we've already mentioned, we'd like that to turn into "all real alliances are represented". Contrary to you or Prometheus' thinking, we do comprehend that there are people outside of us, people who may next week be a part of the Senate. The only exclusiveness about the current Senate is that we all belong to the "we were around at 2100 game time club"

lol, perhaps if it had been advertised before hand then you could have claimed that but it appears NO-ONE outside those 16 knew anything about this 'meeting'. You invited the 16 you wanted and ignored everyone else. All it would have taken to get all the smaller alliances that wanted to attend to do so would have been a post here before the event stating the goals of the meeting, the time and the steps to take to be invited (oh and I noticed something earlier about "if we ahve heard of you we will invite you",Now i know alot of you in top alliances have this idea that only you really understand the game but this is wrong and everyone no matter if youve heard of them or not deserves their say and deserves to be taken seriously and not just dismissed as rantings of a nobody who doesnt have a clue)

[Fifth_teletubbie]

Originally posted by K-W
Oh come on, theres nothing a war game needs more than an organization for peace.

Boutros Boutros Germania has a nice ring to it though, heh

[Scouse]

Originally posted by Sonnenbomber
Scouse what is your problem?

I was defending the Senate from all the abuse you've been getting here, from people complaining about the composition, and I've got a problem?

Nice one.

[Heartless]

Originally posted by K-W
Lets blame the players for playing. Those evil bastards. How could we ever have been so stupid to sign up for a game, and try to achieve the objectives set out in the game!

THe current players are not mutant aliens from planet X. New players wont play the game any differently if the game is the same, and the current players wont play a new game any different than new players.

When designing round 10, they need to not try and dismantle allainces. Alliances are waht have made PA PA, they need to find a way to make a game that works with alliances. Im not saying thats not what they are doing. And ffs im not saying Im not saying they need to protect our ability to bash, but if they are thinking along the same lines as you, we are doomed.

Oh well, am I talking at a wall?
I personally really enjoy chatting with players, hearing their concerns about the game and all.
However, there are a few players, namely 90% of the command of the top alliances, which do not deserve to be listened to as the first thing they have in mind is keeping their very own power inside the game and their more or less pre-programmed top planet / galaxy position.
Actually "alliances are waht have made PA PA" is a true fact, if you consider alliances till round 3/4. Alliances are vital for you to survive in this game, hence it is a (massively) multiplayer one. But at a certain point allianes became a destructive force inside the game itself: certain communities which were established over the rounds just go along with their "eliteness" which nobody is allowed to touch. Since new players had no chance to touch their position it is time to crack it via the game's logics. Whatever way.
It is just a side-effect appearing within the new game which finally will be a rather realistiv space warfare simulation (which it was supposed to be since rounds).

Originally posted by K-W
Oh come on, theres nothing a war game needs more than an organization for peace.

I think I saw the research of the "Hippie-Age" inside internal beta.
Oh, and for our oh so nice customers we even included the production of "Lawyers". If you do not like the game design you can always send them to 1:1:1 and sue the creator for creating a game.

[Heartless]

Originally posted by Scouse
I was defending the Senate from all the abuse you've been getting here, from people complaining about the composition, and I've got a problem?

Nice one.

Scouse, I think we both know that some people simply lack common sense when it gets to certain discussions or posts by certain people.
Sadly my HC belongs to this group of people.

[K-W]

Originally posted by Heartless
I hate the people who run the top alliances cause im chock full of bitterness from my playing time, but I like to pretend im some kind of PA saint who thinks only of the good and wanders around curing the sick.

Grow up. In that last post you very clearly showed that you are just bitter and really shouldnt be listened to. Until your ready to grow up and not just blame all your problems on the people running the top alliances you dont belong anywhere near any discussions about this game. Its people like you who have ruined PA by sitting aroudn whining instead of actually looking at how the game could be improved.

Welcome to the real world heartless. Populated by humans. There are no demons and saints here, so kindly take your fairy tales of evil big allaince people and good sainly non big allaince players elsewhere. If we all quit today and came back in 2 months, guess what. There would still be big allainces, there would still be power playing, there would still be bashing, thre would still be stagnation, and it would be a whole new set of names at the top. Humans + Game = how the game is played. Your insinuation that somehow there are a couple evil monster humans who ruin the game for kicks is the thinking of a 5 year old.

[Gerbie]

Well K-W, I guess now you are oversimplyfiying things. Alliances (HC's and their members) had an opportunity to act. To simply not block. Or disband powerblocks in time. They ruined those oportunities. Flaming doesn't make that less true.

Whining about what's going wrong and suggesting things to improve the game are two ways to reach the same: get this game improved. For various reasons the game never was improved sufficiently.

So now actions are taken that might help/force players and alliances in making the right choices. And now they are whining. Trying to get things under control again by forming some kind of 'senate'. Well people: you are a few rounds too late.

[Heartless]

Originally posted by K-W
Grow up. In that last post you very clearly showed that you are just bitter and really shouldnt be listened to. Until your ready to grow up and not just blame all your problems on the people running the top alliances you dont belong anywhere near any discussions about this game. Its people like you who have ruined PA by sitting aroudn whining instead of actually looking at how the game could be improved.

Welcome to the real world heartless. Populated by humans. There are no demons and saints here, so kindly take your fairy tales of evil big allaince people and good sainly non big allaince players elsewhere. If we all quit today and came back in 2 months, guess what. There would still be big allainces, there would still be power playing, there would still be bashing, thre would still be stagnation, and it would be a whole new set of names at the top. Humans + Game = how the game is played. Your insinuation that somehow there are a couple evil monster humans who ruin the game for kicks is the thinking of a 5 year old.

Oh, hi real world (= Nice to live inside you since over 20 years.
Actually I enjoy powerplaying a lot, too. Just look at the battle group I am in or my last round ranking.
But still it does not change the fact that if you are in a top alliance, and you play a Battle Commander as I do for example,you will notice how most of alliance command staff just use their members.
No matter if it is target claiming where they come and pick as the first people due to them being HC or on defense when they just leech defense instead of calcing it wisely and doing a good job there.
That is attitude that is not really related to Hardcore Gaming, that's just simple abuse of your power.
And if you look at previous rounds rankings, alliance hc galaxies have been the top galaxies. No matter if there was this "skill" factor with a HC person or not.

On the other hand a 1m score player with 80 roids can be a very hardcore gaming person, too. Checking in all 2-3 ticks, organizing defense for himself if possible, establishing contacts to other players and so on. The difference is just that he has no power over someone else, thus can never go and "recruit" people to "play" for him.

[K-W]

Originally posted by Heartless
Oh, hi real world (= Nice to live inside you since over 20 years.
Actually I enjoy powerplaying a lot, too. Just look at the battle group I am in or my last round ranking.
But still it does not change the fact that if you are in a top alliance, and you play a Battle Commander as I do for example,you will notice how most of alliance command staff just use their members.
No matter if it is target claiming where they come and pick as the first people due to them being HC or on defense when they just leech defense instead of calcing it wisely and doing a good job there.
That is attitude that is not really related to Hardcore Gaming, that's just simple abuse of your power.
And if you look at previous rounds rankings, alliance hc galaxies have been the top galaxies. No matter if there was this "skill" factor with a HC person or not.

On the other hand a 1m score player with 80 roids can be a very hardcore gaming person, too. Checking in all 2-3 ticks, organizing defense for himself if possible, establishing contacts to other players and so on. The difference is just that he has no power over someone else, thus can never go and "recruit" people to "play" for him.

Im sorry youve been in crappy alliances. Ive never been in an allaince where command staff mostly use thier members. I guess I lucked out. And as command staff of an alliance, i regularly sacrifice my personal success for that of my alliance and always have.

If your alliance leaders do such things STOP FOLLOWING THEM. You cant stay in an allaince and complain that it abuses you... well you can but you just sound bitter. leave, find an alliance that doesnt do it, or start a new allaince that doesnt.

Your view of things is very black and white and very grim. Yes there are leaders who abuse. Certainly not all of them do. There are alot of very selfless leaders in PA who look at the allainces success as thier measure of success.

1 mil with 80 roids... dunno about that, but your point is well made that perfectly good players can be screwed by not having connections. But, thats how this game has always worked, and unless they plan to not have this be a game of politics and cooperation, thats always how it will worked. You join, take your lumps, and start making friends and developing connnections. Thats how every single one of us started. The problem is, the lack of new players makes this difficult, so there should be changes made. Im not arguing against change, im arguing against a concept of change that thinks that if you toss a grenade into the allaince community its going to neccessarily help the game.

[kaos]

Many people here see the entire thing way to easy.
Blocking surely is a reason that ppl leave. But what did Spinner do to prevent it ? it exists since then first rounds, and suddenly spinner wants to do everything so good, change the game to something that all woulv love to play, etc. So its the alliances fault, to play the game the way a game should be played: to win ?
Ppl have, are and will always use every possible method to win this game (and thats just what it is all about)
This is just like the humans are, and it has been shown in world history often enough, that those humans are power obsessed. Imho it should have been spinners task long time ago to stop them. PA kinda failed in all stuff that would have saved players, etc:

A proper Newbie Protection (btw: saying that only top ppl bash doesn't work, everyone uses the limits given by the game, so even a 1 mill guy attacks a small guy, and thats the main problem, not because those big guys bash those small guys, but the small guys continue their work, and thats what should have been adressed)
Customer Support: Why should i stay customer after i invested xxx hours in the game and don't even get answers to my mails and get treated like **** ?
Multi hunting / Anti multi measures: There have been so many obvious cheaters this round and last rounds and sometimes they don't even seem to care. If you report someone, you don't even get a message, a thanks or whatever (can be a template or whatever, but you feel just ignored if you don't even get any response to your complaint)

I could think of enough other things here, but i think everyone knows what i mean.

Of course the alliances are "guilty" too, but there has been blocking in r3 r4 r5 r6 r7 r8 r9 and someone remember the playerbase fro r4 ? so blocking is suddenly guilty for all those palyers leaving, who lived with blocks before and even joined the game ? Come on, think before you talk pls.
You maybe can change the game, but you can't change the ppls way playing it, because if someone plays a game he wants to win, and he WILL use every legal (or illegal) way to do it. So wtf is it the alliances fault that those who CAN prevent those things didn't do anything to prevent it ?
And about Creators listening to ppl: They listen to the "No matter what the creators say, i say yes to it" ppl and not those who have the best ideas.
So dear ppl, first look at yourself before you start crying at others, it will yield to the best results ...

[Heartless]

Originally posted by kaos
So dear ppl, first look at yourself before you start crying at others, it will yield to the best results ...

totally agreed.
Creators / PA Team did so and still do so.
But what I try to state here all the time is that Alliances don't do it.

And one last word on blocking:
There is no way you can absolutely stop alliances from blocking.
Exchange your coord list outside the game and bang! new block.

This was my last post btw, I gonna go concentrate on work again.

[kaos]

Originally posted by Heartless
totally agreed.
Creators / PA Team did so and still do so.

maybe read what leshy is posting and then talk in so high words of yourself (thats btw another problem of pacrew, they think they are goods sometimes ... )

[Razorback]

We are still talking about the planetarion Senate which will open its gates on next sunday at 21.00 GMT again. Anyone who wishes to join with his alliance can contact Eylisia (#elysium) as she spended the channel for it and was elected as of yet as our spokeswomen.

If we talk about the bitternesses of Heartless. I doubt you shouldnt be the loudest cryer here heart. Its kinda hypocratical that you attempt to be the pa paulus now and blame others for blocking and overkill and whatever else you try to put on your famous "im pa team and you are all guilty" bandwagon.
You were last round tot command (bc level) so infact you could have just left when you were so disgusted. You are this round ToT "command level" and we both know how ToT plays this round. Neither you have left. So infact closing your eyes and babbling here about how the others are all feckups and sneaking yourself on the victimside wont really help.
This discussion evolved from an offer for discussions about r10 features (something the senate wanted to discuss with creators, sorry as of now you dont belong to this group so your offer "pm me if you like" is no real offer to the senate) to your hatred about big bad topalliances. I doubt you are right on this evaluation if you would take your time and read who was present, and i mean without talking yourself, just quiet reading. Hirr i wouldnt call powerblockers or discribe them as that kind of hc you see 90% of pa hcs as. Your bias kinda ridicules any statement you do. And quiet frankly Heartless i would give you the tip to join another alliance where those silly accusations never happen. Like germania stated, instead of blaming everything and everyone for your own spinelessness to leave ToT just go if they are only abusing you and join something else or even CREATE a new alliance where everything is better.

The basic outcome if you complain or not will be:
a group of players (represented by their hc) will contact spinner.
How much you like that, i guess noone gives a ratsass about.
If you are interested please join us bring in your viewpoints and help a sensible discussion with the goal of making pa better or atleast disscuss additional steps for its survival.
If anyone felt left out they can contact us (by Eylisia) and get added for the next meeting, to which hopefully spinner will find the time to attend.

To get the points for those who seem to be inable to read straight again:
The senate wants no special treatment.
The senate is not using any force statements to achieve something.
The senate wants to act as an open think-tank
The senate wants to HELP
The senate wants to take part in creation of r10+

I find none of these statements that offensive that ppl like heartless and other pacrew members need to get insulting or discriminating about it. If you cant take part in a discussion without slandering the idea it throws a rather bad light on the crew as a whole.

P.S. Aryn does your school support reading classes ?
If yes please take some before posting totally offtopic.
None of the senate players said they would speak for a majority or even for ALL customers. Neither does the senate represent all different views of all different "senators". It will be a consent on what views we can agree on to get discussed.
P.S.S i would make another bet, if all 16 topalliances quit it would be a rather silly game, with only 1.5k players (such a scenario is very unlikely and shouldnt even be considered) which makes your argumentation rather amusing Aryn, because it applys no common sense at all.