Planetarion Forums - For all the clueless ppl claiming to know something about the R6 Xeta-FoS relations

Faberius · 17 Jan 2003, 21:47

Quote:

Originally posted by Patrician

Earlier CamelToe commented that 'FoS' had no 'war machine', it did - and its name was Deus*. (credit to Jester & Aga)

*Controversial yes, however CELL was a non-entity, ND+hirr had no real punch
Misc > FoS btw. :/

FoS > Misc

Well, if you were so good, why did you bother to ally us in the first place?

Please don't tell me you were under any illusions that we were some sort of elite uber alliance. Community we are and community we remain.

I'll say publically now, something that I've been saying privately since round 7:

NoS and WP were better allies to us in Round 6 than you.

There was an appreciable sense of disdain and contempt whenever hirr and ND voices were raised. Our opinions were considered null and void whenever Deus objected, an example being your aligning yourselves with FLTV near the end.

Communication between us, for being a subblock, was atrocious. Inactive HC on Deus part and no consultation meant that for the better half of a month ND HC were convinced you were simply being absorbed into FLTV.

On the other hand, while practical support was few and far between out of necessity, at least NoS/WP listened to us.

We were loyal to you, and I have always had a hard time believing that feeling was mutual. I'll thank you for giving ND the opportunity of shared victory, but if I find myself allied to anyone involved in Deus HC again, I'll shoot myself.*

*an exception being Alby, who by the admission of his own HC was inactive, but always gave me the impression he cared.

Buly The Great · 17 Jan 2003, 21:53

I have to agree with Col on that one, not as extremely but yus, there was a lack of Deus command communicating with us.
I think Alby and Aga were the ones that co-operated with us. Some Dx HC, or actually most, didn't even come to the joint ND/hirr/Dx. When I once asked one of them the reason for that, (I don't remember which one, I think it was lokken but I'm not to sure), the reply was, that "I have to many fecking channels open already". There were some efforts made of joint attacks, and I do remember ND and hirr taking a t50 gal once or twice, even a t15 gal if I don't remember to badly. However, it is true, Dx command didn't talk to much with us. Sure, ND weren't that great of an alliance, but mind. We had members in gals that hit for FoS and Xeta, and we were able to cover one t250 gal alone per night. Sure, not the greatest, but we told you guys of our numbers before we allied, and since we were allied, I think that you could've co-operated more with us than you did.

Barrow|Pony · 17 Jan 2003, 22:02

The past is past.

No matter how many bumps in the road jumped up, we overcame the obstacles, and despite all of the "what ifs" and "just barelys", FoS (and all of its members) ended on top.

Granted - I wasnt in the position that Col and Buly were in, but I had a blast that round, and I hope I wasnt the only one.

Buly The Great · 17 Jan 2003, 22:15

Barrow is right, the round was great and the past is past. But I don't think that Patricians comment was to much of a nice one and that's why I stepped in and posted as I did.

Patrician · 17 Jan 2003, 22:59

Hit a nerve I see.

So I commented on the fact hirr/ND had no real attacking punch - Which was true, this is confirmed by ColCarp who then launches into a rant about various things I didn't comment on. Note I did not say hirr/ND were useless, far from it infact. You are the one who seems to be implying that, perhaps a little more faith in your alliance is needed. My personal opinion of hirr/ND is that they were excellent allies, who I enjoyed working with - and if memory serves, I was in the joint channel whenever online (aka frequently).

As for why we allied you - well we wanted hirr (as they do and always will rock), ND came as part of the deal *shrug*. Some initial scepticism was felt about this, but it worked out.

I am aware of the anger felt when Deus allied FTLV (I was speaking to hirr behind the scenes about it) - but I was no longer part of Deus at that point, so had nothing to do with it. Those who mattered knew my feelings on the issue (lo Leto ;)), but ultimately it wasn't my place to do anything (other than to mention to a few Deus HC that perhaps the ND/hirr alliance needed fixing up a tad). Whether it was acted on, *shrug*.

Quote:

Originally posted by storeslem

You are wrong infact. You think it was only XeTa and FoS vs Furgion, but as soon as FLTV were starting to loose, Rock and most of those other semi-crap alliances also started attacking Furgion. With most of Furgion dead, all those alliances constituted the greater part of the universe score. Definitely of those actually taking part in the war. As in the magisters case, even allied "fence-sitting" galaxies betrayed and attacked us.

As for organisation everyones entitled to an opinion, but I know for sure Furgion was indeed very well organised, at least in the beginning.

Oh, and I'm not really impressed by the xeta/fos intell; most of the universe believed syn_sid was in my gal most of round 6

Nah don't think I am. If you believe every other alliance under the sun hit FTLV when the chips were down - you are rather mistaken. As I was HC in an alliance on the opposing side, I was aware from whom our incomings were from, and they certainly weren't always Furgion.
Fence sitting galaxies? - Your problem for letting them fence-sit, pointless whining about it now.

As for Furgions organisation, I gather no coords were released amongst the constituent allies for quite a while, as Fury was overly concerned about security – Which obviously caused problems. And I know that Furgion were complacent about the early incoming they received - which cost them. Surely this doesn’t point to tip-top organisation?

Intel: pfft. Some unfortunate casual players decided the motto I have in my board signature would make a sterling galaxy banner. I'm told that Furgion decided that must be my galaxy, took them quite a while to realise they were mistaken.

Fifth_teletubbie · 17 Jan 2003, 23:41

ND and hirr were the only ones loyal to Deus when NoS and WP were too busy looking the other way.

If there was ever any disdain towards ND or hirr from Deus command or member I certainly never noticed it, and I doubt very much it was there in any significant amount (every alliance has a few twats, Deus not excluded).

As for allying FLTTV, it is an unfortunate fact that ND and hirr simply could not provide Deus with the firepower needed to counter Xeta at that point, hence others were needed to keep the war going.
The situation with NoS and WP being what it was, FLTTV were in fact the only choice at the time.
At least it kept the round 'open' for a long time.

hAl · 18 Jan 2003, 00:27

Sad thing was that some FoS alliances would have rather won the round at Xeta side than on FoS side. Almost the whole universe claimed to be FoS and I know people from several gals would have loved to go after FLTV much more than Xeta gals but they were instructed otherwise. They were very unhappy with the FLTV influence on FoS HC. When FTLV was no longer a threat for final victory some FoS HC complety 'obeid' the instructions from FLTV (that btw is a quote from an FLTV HC)

hAl

AlbinoSquirrel · 18 Jan 2003, 00:33

I completely endorsed the move to ally with FLVT for the remainder of the round - in fact, I pushed for it and opened the negotiations with Sid, iirc. One of the few things I actually did during the course of the round, but probably one of the more important things that happened.

The reasoning was simple, and I'm sure you've all heard it before, so I won't repeat it. Personally, I liked hirr and ND as allies - talking with Leto and CC was always productive. However, neither hirr or ND held a candle to Deus's military power. They weren't slouches by any means, but neither of them could provide the needed support that Deus would have needed in the case of a pure Xeta/FoS war.

The key point of allying FLVT in the long run was quite simply because Deus didn't trust WCN. We did trust hirr and ND. Later plans probably would have involved turning FLVT on WCN to weaken them again, then attack FLVT again (possibly negotiating with Xan/Ely for assistance), leaving it clear for a Deus victory.

However, since SOME military commander couldn't be arsed anymore, and the rest of the HC was exhausted, we just pretty much collapsed

Damn my ex. I wish I had been active :\

ComradeRob · 18 Jan 2003, 00:50

I think the greatest failure of FoS was due to its failure to establish real dialogue internally. There really wasn't much meaningful discussion going on that I could see.

As far as diplomacy was concerned, we split much of that within Deus HC. My personal responsibility was communication with NoS/WP, due to being an ex-NoS HC myself and having some personal connections to the WP HC of the time. Patrician and Lokken handled dealings with hirr/ND, again mostly due to personal connections (Leto being in their galaxy etc.).

I think this caused a bit of a breakdown of communication overall, as there were times when nobody was quite sure who was supposed to be talking to who. FoS could have been a military machine had the internal communication been better, but the slightly odd way that things were handled in Deus probably contributed a lot to those communication problems. The Deus HC should have taken a more unified view on things instead of trying to split diplomatic responsibilities to different people. The workload of the HC at the time also made things pretty difficult, as there wasn't often much time to step back and re-examine how things could be done better, and it is only in hindsight that mistakes seem obvious.

Faberius · 18 Jan 2003, 01:42

Its nice to know the truth. I'm glad you were quite honest that ND was more of a deal clincher. As for whether it worked out or not(in as far as having ND) is more debatable.

I touched upon other issues in my rant(and I won't deny that it isn't that) because they are more in line with this thread in a whole, and not necessary what you said. If anything this has sparked some debate on the usefulness of the smaller members of both Xeta and FoS.

Were we useful, in all actuality, would FoS have been as powerful without Cell/ND/hirr? Would XeTa have done as well without Core or TFD?

I'm going to say that there would just that much less for FLTV to kill. I don't know and can't really speculate if lack of the smaller six as a more or less organized part of either Xeta or FoS would have resulted in an FLTV victory. My ego is telling me that we were a necessary part in their defeat, but common sense is telling me that we were more the above and beyond that would have sealed the deal had FLTV had a better strategy.

My main complaint that I am voicing here is the cooperation with FLTV as I will not voice my opinions on certain people, only on Deus.(Its simply not fair to equate a person's actions in PA as who that person really is. That lesson can be learned by anyone who flames, including me sometimes

) The majority of ND and hirr found that cooperation with FLTV was simply not necessary, and would in the long run would just help FLTV, not bring us closer to a victory. We didn't think that your reasoning was right. I didn't agree with it then, and even in hindsight it would have been a much better round if we had just attacked Xeta on our own. However as I ranted before, NewDawn and hirr opinions were not taken into consideration, even though we had voiced them a couple occasions. Coming off losing our relationship with Xanadu for Deus, it hurt to be considered irrelevant in the decision making process.

ComradeRob is right: the greatest failure of FoS was its lack of real communication. But on the other hand, FoS was too large for that to be truly effective, and for the most part with what it was FoS was a success. It reached its aims, and thats what it was created for.

Let me finally reiterate once more: I am extremely thankful to Deus for elevating us to the level of...well not power, but political value that we have as a medium alliance. However you can't have it both ways. Either we were useful and therefore military valuable(making your assertion that ND/hirr had no place as part of the war machine false) or we were not useful, and you should not let any friendship or personal bias get in the way of you stating so.

Salomo · 18 Jan 2003, 02:02

You favouring NoS over deus hurts a bit, but since i doubt i will be able to change your opinion anyway (yor opinion seems rather set in stone allready), i'd like to focus on three points only:

Quote:

Originally posted by Faberius
There was an appreciable sense of disdain and contempt whenever hirr and ND voices were raised. Our opinions were considered null and void whenever Deus objected, an example being your aligning yourselves with FLTV near the end.

I was quite a bit burned out towards the end and busy with RL, so i may have missed some things, but i doubt anyone from deus command ever felt contempt for hirr/nd. Especially in the beginning (as i said, i can't comment on the fltv thing very well) there were tons of endless meetings though, that got longer and longer from meeting to meeting, so maybe the frsutration at the length and fruitlessness of them caused your suggestions to receive less consideration than maybe apropriate. At some point in those meetings I (i.e. me as individual command member) didn't care about who wanted what anymore, i just wanted to come to an acceptable solution as fast as possible (sometims in order to get to the next meeting on time), and it's well possible that i tried to sweep some of your (hiir/nd ones) ideas aside as well in that process to get to a result faster. Sorry for that, but those meetings did exhaust everyones patience i think.

Quote:

Originally posted by Faberius
Communication between us, for being a subblock, was atrocious. Inactive HC on Deus part and no consultation meant that for the better half of a month ND HC were convinced you were simply being absorbed into FLTV.

On the other hand, while practical support was few and far between out of necessity, at least NoS/WP listened to us.

I doubt you can blame the lacking comunication entirely on deus. I remember looking for a hiir or nd HC in the joint channel for hours at times without anyone responding. It's not like your HC was exceptionally active in the joint channels while Deus HC all were inactive twats. (Tbh i rather had the impression it was the other way around, but then again that is only natural i guess.)

A lot of the comunication with hirr/nd (as I at least regarded you as one unit) happened through leto and pat/lokken. I can't tell for sure whether this applied to all of deus command (though i assume it probably did to most), but i considered that leto/pat/lok connection to pretty much cover comunication with both hirr and nd. In hindsight that may have been a mistake, but then on the other hand i don't really recall any attempts from ND to improve comunication.

Quote:

Originally posted by Faberius

We were loyal to you, and I have always had a hard time believing that feeling was mutual.

We felt strongly bound to you by loyalty and discarded any ideas that would have forced us to break up with you immediately. (At least that was the case during the time i was around and remember. As said above i'm not sure on the things during the fltv cooperation, but i can't imagine that even during that time deus command wanted to split from you.

Salomo · 18 Jan 2003, 02:26

Quote:

Originally posted by Faberius
However you can't have it both ways. Either we were useful and therefore military valuable(making your assertion that ND/hirr had no place as part of the war machine false) or we were not useful, and you should not let any friendship or personal bias get in the way of you stating so.

An alliance can be very usefull without actually having huge military power. Imo it was very usefull for us to know that there are some alliances we can probably count on no matter what happens in this world of backstabbing and betrayal that PA is. Imo eventhough you weren't regarded as militarily huge (i don't know how strong you actually were in terms of attacked score per day) you also greatly helped preserve the equilibrium within FoS. Deus and NoS didn't really get along too well, and i strongly assume without nd and hirr in there as well FoS wouldn't have lasted as long as it did. And if FoS had disolved, depending on the point of disolution things could very well have ended differently.

TehVader · 18 Jan 2003, 02:55

Firstly I'd just like to note that I for one felt that the communcation with Deus went quite smoothly all the time. Ofc I'm only talking for myself here and all I ever did was to arrange attacks and Aga was a great person to work with

As for Patrician's statement that we packed no bunch, that's not entirely correct. If you compare ND/hirr to the bigger parts of FoS, namely Deus and NoS/WP we didn't. But we took 3-4 gals every night and while not all of them were big I dare say it helped. (that was only ND btw, so I'd reckon hirr took some targets aswell) If I remember correctly we also hit Casablanca quite hard a few times, joint ND/hirr hits though, mostly because myself and the hirr BC's in my gal didn't like them attacking us incluster. If I'm not mistaken we took them down quite a few places in the rankings, think we almost got them out of the t10 in the end.

Faberius · 18 Jan 2003, 03:04

Salomo, as I was writing both of these opinions but one of many thoughts entered and stuck through my mind, "Salomo was not an HC, he was a really high ranking officer." I think at the end of the round you were indeed an HC, but throughout most you weren't. Please correct me if my memory is mistaken but absolutely none of this was directed at you as a person or as an officer.

We talked way too much for that to be the case

TehVader · 18 Jan 2003, 03:10

oi Col, why are you not on irc?

Salomo · 18 Jan 2003, 03:39

Quote:

Originally posted by Faberius
Salomo, as I was writing both of these opinions but one of many thoughts entered and stuck through my mind, "Salomo was not an HC, he was a really high ranking officer." I think at the end of the round you were indeed an HC, but throughout most you weren't. Please correct me if my memory is mistaken but absolutely none of this was directed at you as a person or as an officer.

We talked way too much for that to be the case

Well, technically i was Senior Officer most of the time, but as i had access to HC info, rooms, boards, discussion, planning, etc. the only thing that effectively distinguished me from HC was the title and that i had no vote in official votes. Over the whole round i think we only had about two votes anyway though, one of them being on my promotion to HC iirc, so except for title-fanatics (which none of us were) it made no difference except for the most initial phase when the whole SO position was a bit undefined.

Hence i usually refer to deus command instead of HC, as the senior officers were more or less equal to HC except for that voting right that didn't matter anyway. But as people that talk about HCs usually mean the command, of course critique against deus HCs in general also is partly critique against me. (But i usually don't regard a little critique as personal attack against me or anything especially when it's not personal critique. I criticise far too much myself without meaning it personal for that.)

AlbinoSquirrel · 18 Jan 2003, 06:32

Quote:

Originally posted by Faberius

The majority of ND and hirr found that cooperation with FLTV was simply not necessary, and would in the long run would just help FLTV, not bring us closer to a victory. We didn't think that your reasoning was right. I didn't agree with it then, and even in hindsight it would have been a much better round if we had just attacked Xeta on our own.

I would agree, except for one small niggling point.

WCN was not exactly working with us - they had been approached by Xeta and almost did jump ship. Even so, they sat back and pretty much watched for the first couple of days. Deus took it on the chin in the meantime.

IF we could have been assured that WCN would actually have worked with us against Xeta, then we probably wouldn't have negotiated anything with FLVT - maybe a quiet agreement to avoid each other while FoS/Xeta fought at most. But we simply couldn't rely on them - and history shows that to be true in hindsight. I'd recommend doing the same thing if I had to do it over.

G.K Zhukov · 18 Jan 2003, 08:37

FoS did play the poltical game pretty well in r6.
nuff said

Jester · 18 Jan 2003, 15:35

Quote:

Originally posted by AlbinoSquirrel
WCN was not exactly working with us - they had been approached by Xeta and almost did jump ship. Even so, they sat back and pretty much watched for the first couple of days. Deus took it on the chin in the meantime.

The signs were shown and the proceedure was as foretold, I see no reason for bitterness over that which one has no control over. Perhaps some day redemption shall be theirs, but the tellings point are vague and difficult to discern; And the seers have much more important tasks than to decypher this information.

Jester

Faberius · 18 Jan 2003, 16:35

Quote:

Originally posted by AlbinoSquirrel
I would agree, except for one small niggling point.

WCN was not exactly working with us - they had been approached by Xeta and almost did jump ship. Even so, they sat back and pretty much watched for the first couple of days. Deus took it on the chin in the meantime.

I figured that instead of investing time in a new relationship with FLTV, it would have been better spent with the people who did eventually remain with us. They didn't jump ship and that signalled to me at least a willingness to cooperate to defeat them.

As I recall, they didn't much enjoy working with FLTV either, which may be why they didn't cooperate with Deus as much as they could have and should have.

Yeh_of_Arcanum · 18 Jan 2003, 19:31

I cant really see such big thing in xetafos lines...LDK were good and took allmost all big Furgion ones down...dont know what ur cluster fortresses did...I controlled c21 totally atleast, thought Sid didnt let me take SilverCity down, cause "they were defected to our side" (How can u be so stupid Sid?

) And then why Furgion lost...cause we didnt co-operate with our top galaxies and cause Furgion players are nowdays rank-wankers only...we were too long on top

Scorpio · 19 Jan 2003, 14:53

Can I, can I?
Now the Squirrel will find out why I was so anti-Deus

"Scorpios tend to have their own agenda, and work intensely to achieve their desires. People who wish to change a Scorpio's mind often have trouble because they can never be sure what their motivation is; Scorpios are too complex and sometimes secretive to be understood easily."

Which perfectly describes round 6 from my point of view.

It's not a secret that I am/was very pro-Xanadu, eventhough I left Xanadu during round 5. I didn't intend to play round 6 at all, but got invited by NewDawn 1 day before ticks started

. I said yes, coz ND and me go back a while as well. I didn't intend to rejoin Xanadu, felt I could be more usefull in ND against FLTV.

The galaxy consisted of ND, hirr and 1 or 2 Deus members.
Everything was fine during the first stage of the round. Second stage however changed something. Suddenly we had to focus on Xanadu and her allies.
I made a deal for my galaxy which basically garanteed no incomings from XeTa at all. Then a few galaxy mates attacked my brother's galaxy, which really pissed me off. I raised hell in NewDawn that day, defending against my own HC etc, resulting in getting kicked from ND. I got back in a few hours later. And I got my own thing going.
I have to mention that I've had a chat with Grim, asking him if he was ok with me hitting Xanadu and allies. And he was. However, I decided to follow my own plan...

One of the first things that happened was that Zhukov left NewDawn. He joined a FLTV attack, and I defended against him. He asked for retals, got upset when he found out ND doesn't use such a system. He was the most pro-FLTV person in ND.

I started a 'campaign' against FoS, and more specific, against Deus. Deus was in my eyes the link with FLTV, so the perfect target.
I kept on saying (on IRC and forum) that they were cooperating with FLTV. There's no way that can be denied, eventhough at that time AlbinoSqrl said I didn't know anything etc. Little did he know that I got the info first hand

. There's not only been joined attacks, but occasionally shared defense as well.
I've told the ND HC often that we should have left Deus, there were only a few members that didn't agree. I even opted for ND joining Xanadu as a wing. (Which would have benefited both.)

Incluster I decided to break the cluster NAP that Storebo put in place with FLTV. This resulted in my GC being exiled, and we having an incluster war. Our galaxy on our own vs FLTV

. All to occupy FLTV fleets. Quite devastating. See: http://home.student.utwente.nl/d.kos...a/Scorpio2.jpg
(25:17:12 is me). I ended the round with less than 1 mil score.

So, to conclude:
It was nothing against Deus. Could have been against any alliance. Deus performed well, no way of denying that. Just that our plans clashed a little bit

TehVader · 19 Jan 2003, 15:28

You forgot to mention that you made life for everyone much harder Scorpio

Scorpio · 19 Jan 2003, 17:28

Quote:

Originally posted by TehVader
You forgot to mention that you made life for everyone much harder Scorpio

I was used to higher standards

AlbinoSquirrel · 19 Jan 2003, 19:21

Nice read Scorpio, but you kinda left out what your plans actually WERE :P

Scorpio · 19 Jan 2003, 23:53

Quote:

Originally posted by AlbinoSquirrel
Nice read Scorpio, but you kinda left out what your plans actually WERE :P

breaking up FoS?

Jester · 20 Jan 2003, 00:33

Quote:

Originally posted by Scorpio
breaking up FoS?

Such an easy goal, and yet you still managed to come off as a clueless moron who was in love with 'the enemy'.

Jester

AlbinoSquirrel · 20 Jan 2003, 01:29

Quote:

Originally posted by Jester667
Such an easy goal, and yet you still managed to come off as a clueless moron who was in love with 'the enemy'.

Jester

I think that needs to be stated again.

I'm just curious as to the reasoning. I'm guessing that you wanted Xanadu and ND to win together due to your ties to those alliances, and to see FLVT get a beatdown at the same time?

Salomo · 20 Jan 2003, 02:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Jester667
Such an easy goal, and yet you still managed to come off as a clueless moron who was in love with 'the enemy'.

Jester

This can't be stated often enough considering what a fragile building FoS was.

Of course it also can't be stated often enough how relieving it was to have as loyal allies as ND and hirr that wouldn't be manipulated by Scorpio, but i guess i allready said that a few times :-)

Patrician · 20 Jan 2003, 02:10

Quote:

Originally posted by AlbinoSquirrel
I think that needs to be stated again.

I'll state it again for a swift laugh (I have an odd sense of humour)

I'd say ND/hirr had higher standards than Scorpio was used to, which is why his... 'interesting' plan of attempting to use a public board (which no one in their right mind takes seriously) to split them from their allies failed.*

*An 'interesting' sentence from me, but who gives a fk.

Salomo · 20 Jan 2003, 03:55

Quote:

Originally posted by Patrician
I'll state it again for a swift laugh (I have an odd sense of humour)

I'd say ND/hirr had higher standards than Scorpio was used to, which is why his... 'interesting' plan of attempting to use a public board (which no one in their right mind takes seriously) to split them from their allies failed.*

*An 'interesting' sentence from me, but who gives a fk.

Btw, just out of curiosity, how did the phrase "who gives a f*ck" develop?

And yes, it is slightly off-topic, but nonetheless relevant as only through understanding what we are saying we can learn to understand each other and only then the whole world can live in peace and happyness etc.

Scorpio · 20 Jan 2003, 07:34

@Sqrl:
Ofcourse, I started to play the round with the intention to bash some Furbies

@Salomo
I still haven't said everything

And I won't either, hehe.

@Pat:
Propaganda ...

Was the only way to get to our 'allies'.

Salomo · 20 Jan 2003, 14:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Scorpio

@Salomo
I still haven't said everything And I won't either, hehe.

Is that refering to the "that can't be said often enough" intro, or to the "loyal allies" main part?

Teh_Necro · 20 Jan 2003, 14:56

Quote:

Originally posted by Yeh_of_Arcanum
I cant really see such big thing in xetafos lines...LDK were good and took allmost all big Furgion ones down.

Shut it you clueless twat. LDK did not do all the work, hell yes they were certainly commendable allies and did perform a lot of raids.

But i think your forgetting (like u have clearly forgot you got pwned for attempting to fence sit) that it was not just a bunch of elite lithuanians that took down you and your alliances. It was indeed run of the mill XeTa members (not FoS, because when ur gal switched sides FoS were not attacking, ill speak more on that later) who sent the ships.

I'm quite dissapointed to see the lack of harmony between the former Deus command, as you lot genuinley were good to speak with.

Although i seem to remember getting fustrated, asking Pat when FoS attacks would begin. The first attack we sent (extremley early) caught most Furgion galaxies with their pants down still farming. Although i must admit that first blow roused the enemy. The following two weeks so XeTa and Furgion positions being exchanged and roids being volley from one side to the other. The command effort on both sides was amazing, the contribution from XeTa members was astonishing, and no doubt Furgion was the same.

However were at this point were the winners? Waiting.

FoS won the round because they thought it out very well, it was a case of brain over braun. As XeTA and Furgion slugged it out FoS waited to join in (on the XeTa side ofc) two weeks after the initial attacks on Furgion.

I must admit the first night of FoS participation was a glorious one, we were battle weary, 14 nights of literally no sleep and hard work and very little to show for it. Yet FoS only took an additional cluster or two hwever it was just enough to tip the balance.

I am not taking nethng away from FoS they were amazing, and won the round through the sheer brilliance of their politicans and leaders. However i'd like to remind ppl of the effort put in by the losers (Furgion and XeTa).

-Necro

Fifth_teletubbie · 20 Jan 2003, 15:01

Quote:

Originally posted by Teh_Necro
it was a case of brain over braun

'brawn' is the word you are looking for.

'braun' make electric razors.

The rest of your post is, incidentally, as full of holes as the faceplate for abovementioned electric razors, but I'll leave the comments to people who still care

Salomo · 20 Jan 2003, 15:11

Quote:

Originally posted by Teh_Necro

I'm quite dissapointed to see the lack of harmony between the former Deus command, as you lot genuinley were good to speak with.

Compared to the times when deus was around we now have the combined harmony of an entire budhist monastery ;-)

Teh_Necro · 20 Jan 2003, 18:44

Quote:

Originally posted by Fifth_teletubbie
'brawn' is the word you are looking for.

'braun' make electric razors.

The rest of your post is, incidentally, as full of holes as the faceplate for abovementioned electric razors, but I'll leave the comments to people who still care

I'll think i'll be getting you some more tooth picks fella. May i commend you on your attempt to patronise me. However i care about as u clearly care for this game about wether or not i miss type something when i mash the keyboard at 90 w/p/m.

As for my post being full of holes, then i think unless your prepared to list and comment properly instead of acting like a spoilt little LaLa to keep such remarks to urself, unless ur prepared to back them up. And may i add that there the views from a prospective which u did not have, u were not part of xeta and no doubt did not have the perception of the confrontation that i had. So no doubt they would not reflect that of your own views.

-Necro

Fifth_teletubbie · 20 Jan 2003, 19:24

Quote:

Originally posted by Teh_Necro
I'll think i'll be getting you some more tooth picks fella. May i commend you on your attempt to patronise me. However i care about as u clearly care for this game about wether or not i miss type something when i mash the keyboard at 90 w/p/m.

As for my post being full of holes, then i think unless your prepared to list and comment properly instead of acting like a spoilt little LaLa to keep such remarks to urself, unless ur prepared to back them up. And may i add that there the views from a prospective which u did not have, u were not part of xeta and no doubt did not have the perception of the confrontation that i had. So no doubt they would not reflect that of your own views.

-Necro

It probably came out harsher than I intended, for which I apologize.

However, your comments were on FoS as much as Xeta, and I did have somewhat of a perspective on that. Specifically the fact that you allude that FoS played a political waiting game is simply incorrect.
You went over from Deus to Silver pretty early sp perhaps you dont know, but I remember the headaches everyone in Deus command had getting us 6 'leftovers' to form any semblance of a cooperation. ("fusion", lol)

As for FoS winning through brilliant politics, sorry but thats ridiculous. In hindsight it might seem that way if you desperately want to, but in my opinion the only piece of brilliant politics in the round belongs to Xan when they declared war on Deus _alone_, thereby giving NoS and WP the excuse they wanted to steer clear of any conflict. It would have worked too if FLTTV hadnt disliked Xan so much more than Deus at the time.

But while the above is open to debate, trust me on braun.

lokken · 20 Jan 2003, 19:46

Off the top of my head, Deus capacity was 11 to 13 galaxies per night, most nights. That's probably sufficient to take out 2, maybe 3 reasonably hostile clusters out at once. Add on the rest of FoS, and you'll note that we could take out a fair bit when we put our minds to it.

Xanadu (twice our size in membercount) covered approximately 20-23 galaxies per night.

We were never going to hit the large galaxies. Why would we want to hit a galaxy likely to get defence? We were never going to hit early either. Why would we want to risk losing our roiding fleets early on? It was still reasonably efficient to initiate. Our plan was to take out the FLVT flak, then watch the big galaxies tumble down with defence available between them. Looking at what happened, FLVT ended up having the top 20 galaxies, but they came a tumbling down.

Moving on, I'm not surprised at certain disharmony between Deus HC - we all had different aims, but we worked around some common goal, that being we were fed up of the old routine of stagnating rounds - it's why we entered our channel on PA Net in the first place. The aims were always going to be points of conflict - my general aim was to smash FLVT and Xeta because if they weren't smashed, they would sit on a win and stifle the round. My concern was not what FLVT and Xeta were doing, but whether we were performing well enough to gain substantial influence over the universe.

Round 6 was an enjoyable round, but for a Deus HC it was also utter hell. IRC and working like a madman for several hours a day is not fun day after day. Arguments were bound to arise out of sheer frustration, especially if there are doubts over whether we were going to be successful, whether things could have been done differently (and better) and whether everyone in the alliance was pulling their weight. We were desperate not to lose that round considering the gargantuan effort put in.

Round 6 was not some 'funfair ride' that people would like to make out. It was a fking hard round, that stretched me and others to the utter limit, I wouldn't want to be in that position again due to the amount of activity required as HC, and anyone who disagrees with that, is in my opinion, quite frankly off their head. But I did enjoy it, no doubt about that.

Vaio · 20 Jan 2003, 23:36

we won \o/

Vaio

Vaio · 20 Jan 2003, 23:36

Lo Ed btw

Vaio

BetrayerOfHope · 20 Jan 2003, 23:53

Quote:

Originally posted by lokken
Off the top of my head, Deus capacity was 11 to 13 galaxies per night, most nights. That's probably sufficient to take out 2, maybe 3 reasonably hostile clusters out at once. Add on the rest of FoS, and you'll note that we could take out a fair bit when we put our minds to it.

Xanadu (twice our size in membercount) covered approximately 20-23 galaxies per night.

fos ability to covering a bit bigger galaxy with all targets taken was more or less a joke. from the late time in the round deus bc was outburned and more or less inactive it was mainly agna who keept it going (at last from my look at an outsider)
but the performence was still not very entertaining i remember my c beeing hit serveral times by fos (i didn't count) and the covering of targets was a joke and i also remember that deus fore example tryed to attack my galaxy in an open raid which failed then u gave the target to hirr to let them attack us which was from my point of few at last the most memorable fos attack on us. the attacks who realy brought us into trouble were organsied by fltv. also i have to add that my c was perhaps no easy food for your forces since we were xeta stronghold and had 2 top10 galaxys inside.

still my respekt for the bc's who managed our beating near the end by simply let xeta run out of def

i'm sure that was an bit work and fos was simply not able to do that in the leading role ...

+ xeta would have been able to stand fos (even with only xan and ely working correctly) allone if u would have left out fltv. fos were for both side only the flak (hard word but well how else should i call it) what was needed to win and since the round didn't last long enough fos won.

but anyway its over and thats just from the peronal view i had.

may i add that xeta did it right to attack deus. well they run into your trap but also it was clear better to do the first steep since when u listened to people like FBD (deus officer?) who were saying in deus memberzchannel at last 1x per day (after it was clear that fltv had more or less lost) that deus will go to war with xeta soon etc didn't gave them mutch space for other things.
perhaps they should have waited a bit longer to get fltv finaly raped but well it happened like it happened

and all in all it was a nice round no matter how it ended

lokken · 21 Jan 2003, 02:09

Quote:

Originally posted by Vaio
Lo Ed btw

Vaio

Hi Steve, come onto PAnet once in a while so we can say hi :)

Now on to Betrayer of Hope :o

As for our performance when we effectively turned against Xeta. Turning against Xeta effectively reduced our capacity to attack to 7 galaxies per night, due to shared galaxies and the like. Slowly but surely we got worse as we got more and more burned out and sick of working so hard. There's no point denying that we got progressively worse after this point, but you've got to give credit for the likes of Aga and Jester for helping mastering Xeta's downfall despite this.

hAl · 21 Jan 2003, 16:36

I remember some 5 wave attack (or so) joint FoS attack on Adelante. Well known in advance so there was limited (as the odds were already stacked) defence ready. First 2 waves were FLTV, not that bad either but they had most of the availalbe def. Don't think they landed on Storebo allthough the raids took roids on other planets. Think the first one was Fury/Wrath second one was ToT/Legion but really not exactly sure which combination anymore.

For certain I know the third one was NoS and hat must have been the crappiest attack on a gal by an alliance I have ever seen. People launching staggered spread over about 4 or 5 ticks and a very late massive recall followed by about 20% of all incomings dying. Also made for the last one or two waves to be canceled as not all defences were used and on some planets were recalled early so the available def for further waves would have been good. FoS attacking did not get a good reputation that day.

Still the roidscount had dropped severly already and a slow glide down th ranking had set in (that is untill the massive onsluaght later that round).

hAl

Griffin · 27 Jan 2003, 01:02

Quote:

Originally posted by Lord_Olrik
this combined with the very early stricts and the best gals of fury&co only farming (some farmed faster than we could attack them and take the roids) was imho the key to succes r6.

And those on your side farming, forgotten?

Teh_Necro · 27 Jan 2003, 01:19

I have to admit, it was the most work ive ever put into the round, me and liberator (and XotheZ for a little while) spent a good 6 hours per day sorting targets, and the other time online was spent handling alliance issue's, it wasn't like u could come online to relax, shame like... as i never truly got to take a time out and admire what the effort we were putting in was doing, as once we got the result we wanted there seemed no reason to put that same effort into fighting an enemy who had been ur ally.

The only reason i put so much in against Furgion was b/c i blamed Wrath for destroying NFU, and b/c a hell of a lot of the Silver core came from NFU i felt it was the perfect scenario for revenge. But alas we never did get that 1 v1 we wanted, did we Zhil? :/

-Necro

BetrayerOfHope · 27 Jan 2003, 10:37

Quote:

Originally posted by Teh_Necro
I have to admit, it was the most work ive ever put into the round, me and liberator (and XotheZ for a little while) spent a good 6 hours per day sorting targets, and the other time online was spent handling alliance issue's, it wasn't like u could come online to relax, shame like... as i never truly got to take a time out and admire what the effort we were putting in was doing, as once we got the result we wanted there seemed no reason to put that same effort into fighting an enemy who had been ur ally.

The only reason i put so much in against Furgion was b/c i blamed Wrath for destroying NFU, and b/c a hell of a lot of the Silver core came from NFU i felt it was the perfect scenario for revenge. But alas we never did get that 1 v1 we wanted, did we Zhil? :/

-Necro

well your attempts to make silver to new nfu destroyed it too from my point of view.

and i remember silver military performance wasn't realy that capital i faced often problems with raids when silver had to cover an wave before since they sometimes ****ed it up totaly (well in fact often).

Teh_Necro · 27 Jan 2003, 18:16

Excuse me? heh... Silver was never portraited as the new nfu, it was never any offical intention, it was only my reason for working so hard bc'ing.

As for Silver's poor military performance, well i can only comment for the time i was there, and if i am honest when i was there we were fine. I think your just being a little to quick to critisise, during my time as lead bc at silver i never got one complaint from any of XeTa for missing targets and what not. Sure one or two of our attacks never came out with the desired effect, but couldn't that possibly due to the fact that Furgion did do some defending during that period? heh.

As for other military operations i cannot count the amount of times a Xan bc was asking me for spare defence ships, or indeed to cover a few extra planets. However i've never mentioned such trival things before, as quite simply on the whole they were a charm to work with in terms of military ability.

-Necro

P.S. off topic a bit, but i cannot recall actually working with u, nor u complaining about any issues with our attacks, so admitedly i was a little taken by your reply.

BetrayerOfHope · 27 Jan 2003, 19:39

well i got my info from ely and xan officers or bc
when they had to cancel an attack or informed us that it going to be higher risk since silver ****ed up something

and u never worked with me true since i only know that in organsing galaxy raids sometimes
and in the times i made that it happened to me 3x when i got that info also i wasn't the main galaxy MoW

Teh_Necro · 27 Jan 2003, 19:44

Heh... i see so you heard from someone who heard from someone that it was silvers fault that the attack dropped. Yes its a good thing we don't have a restriction on none-valid information.

-Necro