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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 22:17   #1
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Freedom of speech?

Hay guys,

Holocaust denier Irving is jailed

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBC Article
British historian David Irving has been found guilty in Vienna of denying the Holocaust of European Jewry and sentenced to three years in prison.

He had pleaded guilty to the charge, based on a speech and interview he gave in Austria in 1989.

"I made a mistake when I said there were no gas chambers at Auschwitz," he told the court in the Austrian capital.

Irving appeared stunned by the sentence, and told reporters: "I'm very shocked and I'm going to appeal."

An unidentified onlooker told him: "Stay strong!".

Irving's lawyer said he considered the verdict "a little too stringent".

"I would say it's a bit of a message trial," said Elmar Kresbach.

Karen Pollock, chief executive of the UK's Holocaust Educational Trust welcomed the verdict. "Holocaust denial is anti-Semitism dressed up as intellectual debate. It should be regarded as such and treated as such," Ms Pollock told the BBC News website.

But the author and academic Deborah Lipstadt, who Irving unsuccessfully sued for libel in the UK in 2000 over claims that he was a Holocaust denier, said she was dismayed.

"I am not happy when censorship wins, and I don't believe in winning battles via censorship... The way of fighting Holocaust deniers is with history and with truth," she told the BBC News website.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Irving
I'm not an expert on the Holocaust
Fears that the court case would provoke right-wing demonstrations and counter-protests did not materialise, the BBC's Ben Brown at the court in Vienna said.

Irving arrived in the court room handcuffed, wearing a blue suit, and carrying a copy of Hitler's War, one of many books he has written on the Nazis, and which challenges the extent of the Holocaust.

Irving was arrested in Austria in November, on a warrant dating back to 1989, when he gave a speech and interview denying the existence of gas chambers at Auschwitz.

He was stopped by police on a motorway in southern Austria, where he was visiting to give a lecture to a far-right student fraternity. He has been held in custody since then.

'I've changed'

During the one-day trial, he was questioned by the prosecutor and chief judge, and answered questions in fluent German.

He admitted that in 1989 he had denied that Nazi Germany had killed millions of Jews. He said this is what he believed, until he later saw the personal files of Adolf Eichmann, the chief organiser of the Holocaust.

"I said that then based on my knowledge at the time, but by 1991 when I came across the Eichmann papers, I wasn't saying that anymore and I wouldn't say that now," Irving told the court.

"The Nazis did murder millions of Jews."

In the past, he had claimed that Adolf Hitler knew little, if anything, about the Holocaust, and that the gas chambers were a hoax.

The judge in his 2000 libel trial declared him "an active Holocaust denier... anti-Semitic and racist".

On Monday, before the trial began, he told reporters: "I'm not a Holocaust denier. Obviously, I've changed my views.

"History is a constantly growing tree - the more you know, the more documents become available, the more you learn, and I have learned a lot since 1989."

Asked how many Jews were killed by Nazis, he replied: "I don't know the figures. I'm not an expert on the Holocaust."

Of his guilty plea, he told reporters: "I have no choice."

He said it was "ridiculous" that he was being tried for expressing an opinion.

"Of course it's a question of freedom of speech... I think within 12 months this law will have vanished from the Austrian statute book," he said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBC
COUNTRIES WITH LAWS AGAINST HOLOCAUST DENIAL
Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Israel
Lithuania
Poland
Romania
Slovakia
Switzerland
So wait a minute here!! I think I'm on to something!!

Someone in Denmark insults Muslims, he had the right to do so since there's freedom of speech.

This guy denied the existence of the Holocaust in 1989, changed his mind 1991, and he gets jailed for 3 years in 2006? WTF!!?
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 22:21   #2
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Re: Freedom of speech?

Denying the holocaust is stupid, jailing someone because they don't believe in it (the holocaust) is even worse though :-/.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 22:25   #3
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Re: Freedom of speech?

Yeah, we did this when he was arrested. Here : http://pirate.planetarion.com/showthread.php?t=188538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
Someone in Denmark insults Muslims, he had the right to do so since there's freedom of speech.

This guy denied the existence of the Holocaust in 1989, changed his mind 1991, and he gets jailed for 3 years in 2006? WTF!!?
Denmark and Austria are two different countries though, to be fair.

And insulting Mohammed != denying the holocaust either.

Obviously I stand by my earlier comments about free speech however.

Last edited by Dante Hicks; 20 Feb 2006 at 22:30.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 22:30   #4
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Re: Freedom of speech?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Yeah, we did this when he was arrested.
which was in november. some things have changed since then

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
Denmark and Austria are two different countries though, to be fair.
If you pay attention to the list of COUNTRIES WITH LAWS AGAINST HOLOCAUST DENIAL, you will see that many of them, if not all, have published the cartoons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNN
Seven publications in France, Germany, the Netherlands, Italy and Spain all carried some of the drawings
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBC
Seven publications in France, Germany, the Netherlands, Italy and Spain all carried some of the drawings
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
And insulting Mohammed != denying the holocaust either.
They both constitute an attack on religion.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 22:31   #5
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Exclamation Re: Freedom of speech?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dante Hicks
And insulting Mohammed != denying the holocaust either.
I'm sure that Jews and Muslims would agree that one is worse than the other.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 22:33   #6
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Re: Freedom of speech?

Here's a bit more of hypocrisy:

From BBC:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BBC
Reporters Without Borders said the reaction in the Arab world "betrays a lack of understanding" of press freedom as "an essential accomplishment of democracy."
So democracy is to jail the guy for 10 years for a mere statement?
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 22:33   #7
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Re: Freedom of speech?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
They both constitute an attack on religion.
The laws against holocaust denial are not in place (generally) to protect religion from attack. They're there for more specific public order / racial hatred reasons.

But yeah obviously there is an element of hypocrisy. But that could be said for any attack on free speech. Everyone agrees with free speech for those they agree with (as Chomsky notes). Exceptions are always going to be based on the power structure / history / etc of the nation involved.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 22:35   #8
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Re: Freedom of speech?

Freedom of speech = You have the right to say anything you like, just not this.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 22:39   #9
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Re: Freedom of speech?

Here's something from SA:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagelfar
Austrian goon reporting in.

Holocaust and everything about it is still a taboo over here. Not really the holocaust itself but denying it. It is illegal to use any symbols associated with 3rd Reich outside of a cultural context. E.g. it is legal to use them in a movie about Nazis, it is legal to use them in museums. It is illegal to use them on the street or on your clothes. It is illegal to collect Nazi memorabilia. It is illegal to publicize anything denying the Holocaust, killing of Jews or anything related to it.
So a British is jailed in Austria because it is illegal to have such IDEAS. But when newspapers around the world do something that is illegal for Muslims, they say it's their right to do so, claiming freedom of speech.

How ****ing hypocrite.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 23:00   #10
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Re: Freedom of speech?

In an astounding newsflash the hypocrisy of all governments is demonstrated. Billions professed themselves bored senseless by the news.
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Unread 20 Feb 2006, 23:23   #11
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Re: Freedom of speech?

I don't know Flav - we don't know what kind of social acceptances and taboos there are in Austria.

What might seem ridiculous to us over here probably is quite normal over there.

I suppose if millions of British had been gassed, we'd probably be a slight touchy about people telling us it "didn't happen and we're lying" too.
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 00:02   #12
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Re: Freedom of speech?

Freedom of speech is allowed, as long as you freely express the right thing
Denying the holocaust is absolutely shit, but should someone really go to jail for it?
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 00:30   #13
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Re: Freedom of speech?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
They both constitute an attack on religion.
The Holocoust wasnt about an attack on a religion, but mass slaugher of people, including jews, roma, mentally retarded, slavic people, communists and other opponents of the regime.

Comparing this to publishing 12 cartoons on a page in a newspaper is very far off.
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 00:32   #14
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Re: Freedom of speech?

The prophet muhammed is worth more than six million jews zhukov
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 00:34   #15
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Re: Freedom of speech?

Speaking of insensitive, I just read this on Bash. It's old but still!

<ClownyMo> Where do you send Jewish kids with ADD?
<Gino> I don't even wanna know this one....
<ClownyMo> Concentration camps!!!
<Gino> Oh how rite i was
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 00:36   #16
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Re: Freedom of speech?

Not to me, johhny

For me he was just a person who smocked to much weed or something and had some really weirdo ideas and a HUGE ego. I must admit I care more for people, than some peoples worshipping of a man who lived over a 1000 years ago.
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 00:44   #17
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Re: Freedom of speech?

You are severly oversimplyfying things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
So a British is jailed in Austria because it is illegal to have such IDEAS.
No, it is illegal to state them in a certain way in public - not having those "ideas".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
But when newspapers around the world do something that is illegal for Muslims, they say it's their right to do so, claiming freedom of speech.

How ****ing hypocrite.
You are wildly mixing different countries laws. Posting the cartoons wasnt illegal in denmark so the cartoonists didnt break any law there (from all we know). Now if you post these cartoons in a country where such a thing is illegal, you will end up in jail (or probably be dead by morning in some countries).

Irving violated Austrias law in Austria and then got arrested and convicted in austria for this as the case wasnt time-barred yet (sp?).

If you want to have danish cartoonists jailed due to Iranian law for example, then you should also start jailing a lot of Iranian people for violating european laws or dont you know what stuff they publish in THEIR newspapers?

And about germany beeing "hypocrite" about this - we do have a law which forbids publishing religious offensive stuff which causes civil uproar / riots (§166 StGB). A panel of journalists builds a so called "Presserat" which in case of the danish cartoons of Mohammed said they would not have allowed publishing them in a newspaper.

The reason why they where later partially published in german newspapers was that some papers considered it necessary to document what the riots in arabic/muslim countries where about.

There are a lot more offensive cartoons posted about christian religion in germany and as i mentioned in other threads, the church lost all cases brought up against a well known magazine called Titanic due to offensive cartoons. However some years ago a punk band used a picture of a bleeding pig on a cross and it was forbidden to be published in germany.

I guess several people would consider your comparision between drawing some cartoons and probably millions of people having been industrially killed quite OFFENSIVE.

If you want to point at hypocricy(sp?) in germany - the leading minister of the CSU wants to forbid the showing of the turkish movie "Tal der Wölfe" (i couldnt find the english title - it means "valley of wolves" and is a rambo-alike turkish movie playing in irak) in germany because it makes western culture, christians and the USA look very bad. On the other hand - how hypocritical is it to cheer about a movie which openly villifies a religion and a country while on the other hand demanding that publishing some cartoons should be forbidden and punished with jail or even death.

ps: and about another stupid myth which keeps coming up from people like Irving - it is NOT illegal to do research about the holocaust in germany.

Last edited by Ramihyn; 21 Feb 2006 at 00:50.
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 02:57   #18
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Re: Freedom of speech?

Hay JBG, best comment EVER ! !

Jailing this guy is harsh, and it's not good either. They will just get more fuel for the fire (they as in fascists). I dont belive in turning the blind eye to it at all, but the state can never be a true fighter of fascism as it's the state that spreads it. It needs to be beaten in the streets by force and in the head by arguments, but it has to be the people (for lack of a better word) and not by the state.

And freedom of speech under our current goverments is shit anyways.
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 03:49   #19
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Re: Freedom of speech?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flavius
Hay guys,

This guy denied the existence of the Holocaust in 1989, changed his mind 1991, and he gets jailed for 3 years in 2006? WTF!!?
1991?

heh

you're dim

(there is a potential freedom of speech argument but comically you have managed to avoid it
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 05:28   #20
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Re: Freedom of speech?

Irving will be out in 12 months , maximum.

The additional publicity will send his next book, regardless of how poorly researched or badly written it may be, into the best seller list.

Mr Irving will become very rich.

For "David Irving" read "Jeffrey Archer". The man will land on his feet. He has both money and influential friends.
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 07:39   #21
s|k
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Re: Freedom of speech?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
In an astounding newsflash the hypocrisy of all governments is demonstrated. Billions professed themselves bored senseless by the news.
'Apathy is a tyrant's best friend.'
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 08:38   #22
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Re: Freedom of speech?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
'Apathy is a tyrant's best friend.'
then stop reading your ****ing blogs and start a bloody revolution, young padawan.
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Unread 21 Feb 2006, 11:30   #23
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Re: Freedom of speech?

Quote:
Originally Posted by s|k
'Apathy is a tyrant's best friend.'
I thought legions of fanatically dedicated followers were a tyrant's best friend but oh well you learn something new every day.
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Unread 23 Feb 2006, 21:17   #24
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Re: Freedom of speech?

A german court just decided about a person who did print the name of the Koran on toilet paper and sold it for 4 euro a piece saying that any profit would go to a charity organisation helping victims of islamic terror. He said it is an "art performance" in memory of the filmmaker Van Gogh who was killed in nov. 2004 in the netherlands and that the koran is a cookbook for terrorism. He did send samples to several muslim organisations in germany.

Just a few days after he started doing that, the police did a search in his home.

Since the justice said there was no intellectual contest involved but only plain abuse, he got 1 year jail on probation because of §166 StGB.

Due to the circumstances this raises a lot of interesting questions. For example a comment like "This is the highest disrespect. It doesnt get any worse" from the leader of a german islamic archive and saying that there where no public protests because german muslims believe in the german law.
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