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Unread 21 May 2008, 18:23   #101
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Re: Stats Round 27

can xans have their fi back pleaseee mmmk thanks!


nah seriously i want my 2 attacking fi + fi pods back.... with maybe anti fi/co being a co ship.. bomber can stay as they are.. bring the wraith back
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Unread 21 May 2008, 19:43   #102
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Re: Stats Round 27

Who cares if its fi or co, hardly significant changes.

All that matters is its eta 8 and cloaked.
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Unread 21 May 2008, 19:50   #103
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Re: Stats Round 27

on r26 stats tho most races are very bad at anti-fi (except amusingly xan) because they dont need to be, if xan were back as fi pods there would need to be a whole load of changes in targeting
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Unread 21 May 2008, 20:43   #104
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Re: Stats Round 27

Sigh then wed have to change it so races get better vs fi duh.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 00:41   #105
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Re: Stats Round 27

We are not seriously considering giving Xan a fi pod with these stats. It's a bad idea on so many levels that I don't even know where to begin. End of discussion.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 11:03   #106
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
We are not seriously considering giving back Xan a fi pod with these stats. It's a bad idea on so many levels that I don't even know where to begin. End of discussion.
I seriously hope these stats wont be used next round.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 11:37   #107
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Re: Stats Round 27

of course change everyones stats just to suit me wanting fi pods back......

did anyone use xan co effectively in r26 btw?
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Unread 22 May 2008, 12:02   #108
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Re: Stats Round 27

Seeing as some of the top xans focused on co\fr id say to yeah?
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Unread 22 May 2008, 15:26   #109
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Makhil
The reason that were given last round for changing stats, mainly "it's fun to change" should still be valid for next round. Stats are changed for the sake of it. I understand that if it's not done this time it's only because nobody wants to spend the time.
No it wasn't, that wasn't on my list of reasons at all. The reason the stats were changed was because they were a complete mess, unbalanced and inconsistent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cochese
I'd be inclined to agree with changing the Lancer to a De, and adding Cr as t2.

Not at all sure what to do about the Cr fleet though...I didn't really mess with it. Could probably do with some beefing up to make it more appealing.
Code:
Wyvern	Battleship	Fr	-	-	Norm	7	1	55	43	93	450	350	350	478	373	Ter
Dragon	Battleship	Bs	Cr	-	Norm	10	1	100	50	95	550	470	470	671	335	Ter

Rogue	Battleship	Cr	Bs	-	Norm	6	1	42	43	92	350	350	420	375	383	Zik
Pirate	Battleship	Fr	-	-	Steal	21	1	65	62	94	400	400	500	500	476	Zik
If you don't get what I mean by this, keep looking at it until you figure it out...haven't bothered reading most of the changes suggested as I don't have the time, energy or the will to do so, this was just something that caught my eye. I have no doubt the rest of your changes are as "good" as this one.
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Unread 22 May 2008, 15:42   #110
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Re: Stats Round 27

Zik BS is pretty shit anyhow, too easy to get def against it. I said in my original post that Terrans should have a CR or BS targetting DE if the Lancer was changed to DE though.
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Unread 23 May 2008, 09:24   #111
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by isildurx
Zik BS is pretty shit anyhow, too easy to get def against it. I said in my original post that Terrans should have a CR or BS targetting DE if the Lancer was changed to DE though.
nah, not shit. quite good compared to other attackfleets this round.

just the fr/de was way overpowered, which lead to most going for that
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Unread 23 May 2008, 10:21   #112
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Re: Stats Round 27

bring back single targetting + round 14 or 15 stats (I don't quite recall the round but I thought the stats Gate made were pretty good)
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Unread 23 May 2008, 10:47   #113
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
bring back single targetting + round 14 or 15 stats (I don't quite recall the round but I thought the stats Gate made were pretty good)
the round where all races had 1 steal ship each atleast?

was a diff. round atleast, and one that I remember more so than most other rounds. Think the stats might be why idd.

This can be done without bringing back single targetting though.
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Unread 24 May 2008, 21:51   #114
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster
the round where all races had 1 steal ship each atleast?

was a diff. round atleast, and one that I remember more so than most other rounds. Think the stats might be why idd.

This can be done without bringing back single targetting though.
Don't think gate's stats were the stats where every race had a steal ship though, but then again my memory might be playing tricks with me again...

The round where everybody had a steal ship was very different to say the least.
Not better, not worse, just different.
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Unread 24 May 2008, 22:53   #115
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Re: Stats Round 27

So anyone know what these minor tweaks to the stats are gonna be?
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Unread 25 May 2008, 11:32   #116
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zaejii
bring back single targeting
most sensible thing I've read on these forums today
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Unread 25 May 2008, 13:32   #117
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Re: Stats Round 27

i kind of like multiple targetting, makes it more fun to see others crash
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Unread 25 May 2008, 17:06   #118
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Re: Stats Round 27

Because when people crash with single targetting, it's boring boring boring.
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Unread 26 May 2008, 16:25   #119
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Re: Stats Round 27

I did r17. R14 were the stats where everyone had a steal ship and they were done by appoco. They were better than mine IMO.

On the other hand, the older stats would be difficult to implement. Ziks were ridiculously easy to overpower because they didn't die on stealing & caths were possibly harder to balance than they are now because there was no separate EMP res. Plus there was no cloaking.

As for single targetting - you can make stats with single targetting in now. Just don't give ships a t2 or t3. On the whole I think the option of extra targetting is worth it.

Going for pure single targetting would probably require increasing ship count again as there used to be 9 ships per race iirc. This takes us to 60 ships in total (12 per race inc pods/SKs) and I think some simplification is actually what we need.
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Unread 26 May 2008, 16:38   #120
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Re: Stats Round 27

It can be argued that single targetting far outweighs adding 4(?) ships as far as simplicity is concerned.
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Unread 26 May 2008, 17:18   #121
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Re: Stats Round 27

Yeah i agree there. Id like to see singletargetting back to be honest.
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Unread 27 May 2008, 13:51   #122
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Re: Stats Round 27

I cant understand why people want singletargetting, and nothing else.
Like Gate pointed out, u can have the option of t2 and t3. But this doesnt have to be the case on all ships. Some single targetting, and some which targets three classes. Variety, and options ftw?
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Unread 27 May 2008, 13:52   #123
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Re: Stats Round 27

oh, for us that cba to play beta, or dont have the time.

Can we get a list of PLANNED changes please?
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Unread 27 May 2008, 14:05   #124
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Re: Stats Round 27

The problem with multitargetting is that it encourages brute force, rather than outthinking your opponent. In general, the fewer T2/T3 targets there are, the better.
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Unread 27 May 2008, 14:16   #125
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Re: Stats Round 27

cause PA was a game of skills when we had T1 only, and when we had t1-t3, it wasnt?

I m not saying PA has been a game of skills ever, but u make it sound like u think so.

And, the good players become big -> can use "bruteforce" because they have outsmarted others?
Problem with t1 is that it leaves crazy holes in fleets ( more so than with multiple targetting imo)
It also makes PA too attack orriented.
Nubs can roid me
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Unread 27 May 2008, 14:17   #126
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Re: Stats Round 27

I dont have a problem with there being some T2 ships, but Id like a base of ships having on T1s.
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Unread 27 May 2008, 14:23   #127
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Re: Stats Round 27

yep. and better sorted.
Avoiding zik, for instance, having 3 ships hitting CR on T1 or xan having none hitting CO on T1, instead hitting FI or FR.
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Unread 27 May 2008, 14:50   #128
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Re: Stats Round 27

I'm sure other aspects of multiple targeting could be tweaked to make things slightly different, such as setting the effectiveness on T2/T3 much higher but only adding T2/T3 on a handful of ships. Use it to fill some holes where races have different ship types, like Cathaar with a couple of kill ships.
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Unread 27 May 2008, 15:03   #129
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster
cause PA was a game of skills when we had T1 only, and when we had t1-t3, it wasnt?

I m not saying PA has been a game of skills ever, but u make it sound like u think so.

And, the good players become big -> can use "bruteforce" because they have outsmarted others?
Problem with t1 is that it leaves crazy holes in fleets ( more so than with multiple targetting imo)
It also makes PA too attack orriented.
Nubs can roid me
i think the main difference between single and multiple targeting that you bring up here is that multi targeting greatly discourages the advantages of 'xp style' playing. The traditional advantages of a highly concentrated xp whoring fleet just doesn't work as well when value players are down to having to only build 3 ships themselves as well.

At its basics the single/multi targeting issue is whether 'brute force' value play is preferable or not, personally id say it is, but it has its own drawbacks as well as advantages.
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Unread 27 May 2008, 15:03   #130
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster
cause PA was a game of skills when we had T1 only, and when we had t1-t3, it wasnt?

I m not saying PA has been a game of skills ever, but u make it sound like u think so.
I think it was more a game of skill with single targetting than it is with multi targetting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster
And, the good players become big -> can use "bruteforce" because they have outsmarted others?
Problem with t1 is that it leaves crazy holes in fleets ( more so than with multiple targetting imo)
It also makes PA too attack orriented.
Nubs can roid me
Whoring defence and getting escorts is not the same as outsmarting people.

There is nothing wrong with there being an inherent flaw in every race. In fact, that's a good thing, because it enhances the meta-game by forcing people to get defence. In any case, races also have weaknesses in a multi targetting environment, so this really isn't an argument in favour of either system.
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Unread 27 May 2008, 15:07   #131
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Re: Stats Round 27

Multitargetting does make fakes harder.

Particularly when pod classes are close together; eg CO-as-FR fakes in r25 were hard. Even if the DC fell for the fake and sent wraith/bomber thinking it was only FR, they'd cover it vs CO too by mistake. Of course, some DCs would send the wraith on purpose, but it's not cool if they cover a fake completely by mistake.
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Unread 27 May 2008, 16:05   #132
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wishmaster
oh, for us that cba to play beta, or dont have the time.

Can we get a list of PLANNED changes please?

Agreed, can we see the planned changes for those of us who don't have the time for beta?
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Unread 27 May 2008, 16:20   #133
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
The problem with multitargetting is that it encourages brute force, rather than outthinking your opponent. In general, the fewer T2/T3 targets there are, the better.
This is just complete and utter ignorant bullshit.

1. "Brute force" implies forcing ones way through with disregard to personal losses. The term you were looking for was "bashing". "Brute force" has never been a viable alternative in PaX.
2. It's not multitargeting that encourages bashing, it's the more aggressive nature of PaX which forces a shorter roid yield cycle.
3. The proper solution would be to remove the handicaps from T2/T3, allowing for smaller and more focused fleets whilst also enabling more effective alliance defence(multiple tick combat is the easiest solution I know of). The roid yield cycle would lengthen and the focus would return to military strategy. Unfortunately, this solution is no longer popular because the only people who are left are the ones who seem to enjoy this game of roidswap.

In short, don't complain, your ideas caused the problems you now face(not you specifically mz, as I don't remember you being on this ultra-aggressive solo-gameplay bandwagon back in the day...)
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Unread 27 May 2008, 16:28   #134
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
This is just complete and utter ignorant bullshit.

1. "Brute force" implies forcing ones way through with disregard to personal losses. The term you were looking for was "bashing". "Brute force" has never been a viable alternative in PaX.
"A method of accomplishing something primarily by means of strength, without the use of mechanical aids."
While you could argue that ships are mechanical aids, I trust you get the point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
2. It's not multitargeting that encourages bashing, it's the more aggressive nature of PaX which forces a shorter roid yield cycle.
Multi targetting forces people to send fleets such that the attacker deals more damage than the defender, because the defender always has ships available that fire at the attacker, even without defence. Further, as Gate pointed out, defence in a multi targetting environment can accidentially fire at fakes, discouraging outthinking your opponent.
Note that I'm not claiming that PAX itself is not also a cause of the increasingly aggressive nature of the game.

Am I right in assuming that by "roid yield cycle", you mean the average time between gaining roids and losing them again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
3. The proper solution would be to remove the handicaps from T2/T3, allowing for smaller and more focused fleets whilst also enabling more effective alliance defence(multiple tick combat is the easiest solution I know of). The roid yield cycle would lengthen and the focus would return to military strategy. Unfortunately, this solution is no longer popular because the only people who are left are the ones who seem to enjoy this game of roidswap.

In short, don't complain, your ideas caused the problems you now face(not you specifically mz, as I don't remember you being on this ultra-aggressive solo-gameplay bandwagon back in the day...)
I've never been a fan of the T2/T3 handicaps, because they make flak ineffective at best, utterly useless at worst. Removing it (or inverting it, possibly) is something I've been in favour of since the first round it was introduced.

[edit]Punctuation.
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Unread 28 May 2008, 08:45   #135
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Re: Stats Round 27

I'm not a stats guru but having been terran this round I actually found it to work fairly well. The problem for me was the lack of decent anti DE. Any xan with a good size DE fleet could roid me easily. Also since Drake had such a low init it was usually useless against Shadows and useless in roidingfleets. Adding a anti DE fr to the terran fleet with init 6 would change everything. The anti fi/co targeting was never an issue to me as long as I had a decent amount of centaur. Ofc the cath co fleets where hard to stop but at least I felt I had a fair chance
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Unread 28 May 2008, 09:01   #136
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Re: Stats Round 27

If you only get roided by 1 fleet, out of the 10 present, I think you have nothing to complain about.
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Unread 28 May 2008, 09:25   #137
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
If you only get roided by 1 fleet, out of the 10 present, I think you have nothing to complain about.
Hmm.. That is not what I ment to say Of course I got roided by others then xans. I just ment to say that to me the terrans only huge flaw was their inability to deal with DE incs.

And I don't mean to complain. I had fun being terran and will consider be terran again.
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Unread 28 May 2008, 09:27   #138
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Re: Stats Round 27

if you wanted good initiative against de then you should have used the harpy which had the same initiative as the Tzen. Terran could obviously not be given a fr which targets de for the same reason as etd cant be given one that targets cr, we cant have a fleet that targets absolutely everything as it would give that race too much of an advantage. They would be able to build one shiptype that is both their roiding fleet and would make them practically unhittable (this applies even more with a terran kill fleet than the etd emp fr).
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Unread 28 May 2008, 09:34   #139
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji
if you wanted good initiative against de then you should have used the harpy which had the same initiative as the Tzen. Terran could obviously not be given a fr which targets de for the same reason as etd cant be given one that targets cr, we cant have a fleet that targets absolutely everything as it would give that race too much of an advantage. They would be able to build one shiptype that is both their roiding fleet and would make them practically unhittable (this applies even more with a terran kill fleet than the etd emp fr).
Yes.. Harpy were okay and I ended up having quite a few of them later in the round And you are ofc right my friend. It would be quite overpowering.
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Unread 28 May 2008, 09:34   #140
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by -CP-
Hmm.. That is not what I ment to say Of course I got roided by others then xans. I just ment to say that to me the terrans only huge flaw was their inability to deal with DE incs.

And I don't mean to complain. I had fun being terran and will consider be terran again.
My point was that one flaw per race is not a bad thing, for reasons booji mentioned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by -CP-
Yes.. Harpy were okay and I ended up having quite a few of them later in the round And you are ofc right my friend. It would be quite overpowering.
If you know it's overpowering... why do you suggest it?
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Unread 28 May 2008, 09:37   #141
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
My point was that one flaw per race is not a bad thing, for reasons booji mentioned.


If you know it's overpowering... why do you suggest it?
Because, as I stated earlier, I am not a stats guru, and in hindsight you are right and I am wrong. I guess I just didn't think it through..
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Unread 28 May 2008, 09:44   #142
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Re: Stats Round 27

Fair enough.
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Unread 28 May 2008, 11:40   #143
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk
"A method of accomplishing something primarily by means of strength, without the use of mechanical aids."
While you could argue that ships are mechanical aids, I trust you get the point.
That's an analog argument in a digital world, the closer comparison would be brute force cracking, which translates to the oldschool Terran use of flak, and is the context in which the term "Brute force" has been used in PA in the past.

Quote:
Multi targetting forces people to send fleets such that the attacker deals more damage than the defender, because the defender always has ships available that fire at the attacker, even without defence. Further, as Gate pointed out, defence in a multi targetting environment can accidentially fire at fakes, discouraging outthinking your opponent.
Note that I'm not claiming that PAX itself is not also a cause of the increasingly aggressive nature of the game.
Has it ever been the case that people have sent fleets which did not deal damage to the defender or possible defence ships? And I'll state this again, getting hit is not a problem because of multitargeting, it only becomes a problem because pax doesn't allow you to hold on to roids. Also, name a fleet currently with pods in adjecant classes? And it's not my problem if you people are incapable of reading the stats and coming up with fakes that work, and it's certainly no argument for dumbing down the game ever more.

Quote:
Am I right in assuming that by "roid yield cycle", you mean the average time between gaining roids and losing them again?
No, I was refering to the time it takes for the roids capped to pay themselves back. If the game allows you to better hold on to roids then people accept heavies losses for roids since they will still turn a profit. Short yield cycles force people to bash. Simple.
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Unread 28 May 2008, 12:28   #144
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
That's an analog argument in a digital world, the closer comparison would be brute force cracking, which translates to the oldschool Terran use of flak, and is the context in which the term "Brute force" has been used in PA in the past.

Has it ever been the case that people have sent fleets which did not deal damage to the defender or possible defence ships? And I'll state this again, getting hit is not a problem because of multitargeting, it only becomes a problem because pax doesn't allow you to hold on to roids. Also, name a fleet currently with pods in adjecant classes? And it's not my problem if you people are incapable of reading the stats and coming up with fakes that work, and it's certainly no argument for dumbing down the game ever more.
It's funny you mention flak as a way of disproving my statements, because that basically boils down to what I've been saying. Multi targetting encourages blowing through everything they can throw at you ("Launch ****ing everything!"), whilst single targetting encourages sending smaller, more focussed fleets. In that light, it's multi targetting that should be viewed as dumbing down the game, not single targetting.

Keep in mind that when a player thinks he is adequately defended, he will usually keep his fleet home to flak the defence. With multi targetting, there is a much higher chance these ships (that were not specifically sent to defend against the attacker's percieved fleet) will wreak havoc on faked fleets, whether the pods are adjecant or not.

As for the adjecant pods argument, I would direct your attention to Zik.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sun_Tzu
No, I was refering to the time it takes for the roids capped to pay themselves back. If the game allows you to better hold on to roids then people accept heavies losses for roids since they will still turn a profit. Short yield cycles force people to bash. Simple.
While I agree that bashing is "bad" (insofar that word can apply), I don't see how single targetting encourages people to do it, nor how it influences the yield cycle. And even if it does, it seems you're trying to fix a problem that was caused by the game mechanics or parameters, by using the ship stats.

This is the wrong way to go about things, because (amongst other things) the only reason you would change the stats to change the game is because you have no control over the game itself (if you did, that's where you'd be pushing changes, where they'd be much more effective). You can't compensate for the inevitable side effects by adjusting the game mechanics (which in turn is why you changed the stats to begin with), because, again, you have no control over them. This will put you in an endless cycle of adjusting things you do have control over (stats) to compensate for the side effects caused in things you don't have control over (the game as a whole), ad nauseam.

As a sidenote, I used "you" in a general fashion here. These changes were certainly not brought about by the current set of stats, and they probably won't be resolved by the next.

I would be interested in some more detailed statistics concerning bashing in single and multi targetting environments, to see if multi targetting has had any effect at all. I however doubt these exist, which would be yet another reason to try single targetting for at least one round (although in all fairness, this argument can be used for multi targetting as well).
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Unread 29 May 2008, 08:18   #145
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Re: Stats Round 27

There seems to have been an update to the beta stats, dunno if theyre final though.
http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.php?page=stats
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Unread 29 May 2008, 09:15   #146
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji
if you wanted good initiative against de then you should have used the harpy which had the same initiative as the Tzen.
Only problem for Ter using harpy to defend against DE incs...
There were idiots like me that added shitloads of phantoms to their DE fleet and attack terrans that couldn't Inc scan them.
I didn't keep track of the total amount of harpys I killed that way, but I can tell you that it was shitloads of em.
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Unread 29 May 2008, 10:20   #147
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
Only problem for Ter using harpy to defend against DE incs...
There were idiots like me that added shitloads of phantoms to their DE fleet and attack terrans that couldn't Inc scan them.
I didn't keep track of the total amount of harpys I killed that way, but I can tell you that it was shitloads of em.
This is part of why I'm always so amused by people claiming xan are underpowered at times.There are so many natural advantages to being cloaked.

The stats aren't final by the way. The current set are based on some changes I discussed with appoco. I offered to do efficiencies and stuff like that over the weekend or whenever I get a chance so if appoco wants I'll do them then, or he'll do them himself whatever. I'd guess they'll be final by monday/tuesday.

Personally I imagine the efficiencies won't change dramatically. The tarantula might lose a bit of efficiency and terran might get some slight improvements would be the two main changes in terms of efficiencies. Just from a quick glance at the stats analysis the avenger looks a bit too strong as is, obviously the pk is out of line in terms of cost. Beyond that I'd guess a lot depends on the response from beta etc.
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Unread 29 May 2008, 11:04   #148
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Re: Stats Round 27

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
This is part of why I'm always so amused by people claiming xan are underpowered at times.There are so many natural advantages to being cloaked.
Xan has it's advantages, but last couple of rounds I've played it was very hard to attack with xan on your own. Last round to be effective CO needed to team up with caths & DE needed to team up with zik. (atleast that was my overal impression of the round)

Did like the fact that for once since i've started playing xan in r11 they had a usefull SK that didn't add an extra tick to your attack.
That also pissed off alot of people though (Hi Benneh!)
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Unread 29 May 2008, 11:16   #149
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Re: Stats Round 27

The 30 Xans in the top100 disagree. As do the 100 Xans in the top300.
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Unread 29 May 2008, 11:19   #150
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Re: Stats Round 27

To be honest it's extremely hard to attack with anything on its own with multi-targetting in the current environment. Really only cath can manage to any real extent due to the fact they always fire first. To be honest by the end a lot of attacks (certainly out of ascendancy) were all fi/co, all fr/de or all cr/bs with as much crossover of the different ships as possible.
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