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Unread 19 Jul 2003, 15:25   #1
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Multiple accounts from the same IP

For those who don't know what I'm on about this is in response to:
Quote:
<@A2> Mave asked: Me and my brother both want to play r10 but does this mean we cant attack/defend eachother at all becasue we have the same ip? How can you see the difference between multipeople and people with same ip? What if anybody is at a netacfe?
<@Spinner> To strike out at all the cheating we have seen this round
<@Spinner> We had to ammend some rules
<@Spinner> And if you and yoru brother are to play this game, you can not copperate too much, sorry. We dont like such a rule, but its better than having the universe spolied by more cheating.
I live with my girlfriend, we have a computer each and share an internet connection. We both play PA and have done for some time now. (For those interested I started in R2 and she in R3.) Whenever appropriate we have coordinated our military efforts. We often share targets (in my opinion two races are better than one, but this isn't a strategy discussion) and obviously always defend each other fiercely. The reason for cooperation with her is a simple one, it's easier to organise and coordinate with someone sat opposite you who you can talk to than it is someone over IRC.

However now Spinner says this will be limited. The attack aspect will be academic in R10 (unless by some fluke we end up near to each other) but as we are both members of the same alliance we will still be a position to defend each other with the advantage of reduced travel time. I will say now that I will never stand by and let her be attacked regardless of what this rule may say and I have no doubt she feels the same way.

How to best address this issue is a good question (and perhaps one for a debate on this forum). My suggestion (for constructive criticism) is one similar to that for extra connections to netgamers (which incidently we do have as we've had friends visit and connect their computers to our LAN before). Obviously this is only applicable to those with static IPs (like me), but you can't win 'em all. Perhaps pre-round you should be able to have the option of advising PA that there will be x planets being played from your connection. Now ofc you will be required to justify your claim. The methods for doing so and what is considered as sufficient evidence would no doubt be very much open to debate. Speaking personally those PAteam members who went to i16 will be able to vouch for the independent existance of Ebany and myself (I'm the one with the beer gut) and I would think that that would be sufficient justification.

Now you may say this behaviour is indistinguishable from that of a multi. However only the most dedicated of multies would have more than one machine to avoid having to hop accounts, so a pattern of repeated cycles of logging in may be an indicator of multi behaviour. This doesn't address the issue of multiple users of one computer, but it does go a step towards allowing unrestricted but fair play. It also does not give license to those granted this status to flounce the real rules, merely for the declaration to be taken into account in the event of any investigation of the accounts concerned.

I don't expect my idea to be taken on, but I've got a lot of time on my hands so I though I'd make this post anyway. I guess I'll have to wait for Ebs and I to get closed in R10 for cheating and the game will lose another two players.
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Unread 19 Jul 2003, 15:32   #2
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They arn't complete morons. Play properly, with both planets, and you've got nothing to worry about.
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Unread 19 Jul 2003, 16:33   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scouse
They arn't complete morons. Play properly, with both planets, and you've got nothing to worry about.
with the recents developments, I wouldn't bet on it.
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Unread 19 Jul 2003, 16:35   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Som1
with the recents developments, I wouldn't bet on it.
Please let's not have this thread turn into a creator-flaming. I spent a long time writing that post, I don't want this thread getting closed.

The multihunters work very hard, and very much against the odds.
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Unread 19 Jul 2003, 16:45   #5
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As long as one of you dont just have defence ships, and don't sends only attack ships( - pods)/and or suicide at your shared target, you have nothing to worry about I belive..
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Unread 19 Jul 2003, 20:32   #6
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Since it's entirely possible to detect different PCs behind a NAT, the creators should invest a little technology into this and get it done right.
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Unread 19 Jul 2003, 21:18   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by Banned
Since it's entirely possible to detect different PCs behind a NAT, the creators should invest a little technology into this and get it done right.
that ouwld be real stupid cause half these nerds playing has a home network and would just love 'permission' to use that for multiple accounts without any risk.

For the original thread creator. Each play on your own and compete on who is doing best and you will have more fun than playing together even !!!

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Unread 19 Jul 2003, 21:43   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by hAl
For the original thread creator. Each play on your own and compete on who is doing best and you will have more fun than playing together even !!!
Oh, it doesn't mean to say we don't compete, I just will not stand by and let her be attacked when I could defend.
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Unread 19 Jul 2003, 22:34   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by RealJames
Oh, it doesn't mean to say we don't compete, I just will not stand by and let her be attacked when I could defend.
But that's clearly more fun!

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Unread 19 Jul 2003, 22:48   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sokar
But that's clearly more fun!

No, I can think of things that are fun to do with my gf and not defending her isn't condusive to these.
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Unread 19 Jul 2003, 22:50   #11
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It was a sarcastic remark anyway, hence the "".
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Unread 19 Jul 2003, 22:51   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by hAl
that ouwld be real stupid cause half these nerds playing has a home network and would just love 'permission' to use that for multiple accounts without any risk.

For the original thread creator. Each play on your own and compete on who is doing best and you will have more fun than playing together even !!!
<insert random abuse pertaining to the idiocy of hAl's post>

I'll address these points in reverse order:
An integral part of PA was that working with friends was an advantage. It was fun because you weren't playing alone. Or you could play against friends. AEternal's end of round bashing of Maddix tradition is a classic example of having fun while playing 'against' eachother. That said, being forced to play against people you'd rather cooperate with sucks. Planetarion used to have a lot options, complaints and limitations have tended to take those options away and forced people into playing certain ways. It's alienating, and my advice to couples, siblings and so on is that if they can't play the way they want (the perfectly legal and rational way they want), they should neither pay nor play. Then again, the multi-hunters have generally shown themselves to be reasonable people, if you can convince them that you're two different people then it might be worth taking the chance.

As to the other point, you'll notice I didn't suggest 'let different computers on the same NAT do whatever they want'. I just wanted them to make full use of the material available. I know of people who live together but use the same PC as well. I wasn't proposing some sort of final solution, hAl, but if you want to try to keep scoring cheap points go ahead.
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Unread 19 Jul 2003, 22:55   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sokar
It was a sarcastic remark anyway, hence the "".
Note my .
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Unread 19 Jul 2003, 22:57   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Banned
An integral part of PA was that working with friends was an advantage. It was fun because you weren't playing alone. Or you could play against friends. AEternal's end of round bashing of Maddix tradition is a classic example of having fun while playing 'against' eachother. That said, being forced to play against people you'd rather cooperate with sucks. Planetarion used to have a lot options, complaints and limitations have tended to take those options away and forced people into playing certain ways. It's alienating, and my advice to couples, siblings and so on is that if they can't play the way they want (the perfectly legal and rational way they want), they should neither pay nor play. Then again, the multi-hunters have generally shown themselves to be reasonable people, if you can convince them that you're two different people then it might be worth taking the chance.
Ebs and I find it more fun to work for mutual gain that compete against each other. Each to their own I suppose. We just want to play the game, and isn't that what it's all about?
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Unread 19 Jul 2003, 23:01   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scouse
They arn't complete morons. Play properly, with both planets, and you've got nothing to worry about.
me and my brother (gresnik) have one computer and use it to play pa, we def each other anytime other has incs ( in case we r both home or online in same time from work etc. we dont share accs.

another mate (xippi) works in same net caffe as me. we share same computer also for playing pa. we def each other also, also without accsharing.

on both computers is win xp and we have different users there but i think that doesnt change much :P.

how can i play game if i must not def my brother and my good rl mate ?
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Unread 19 Jul 2003, 23:07   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by ZOLA
how can i play game if i must not def my brother and my good rl mate ?
My sentiment exactly.
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Unread 19 Jul 2003, 23:59   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by Scouse
They arn't complete morons. Play properly, with both planets, and you've got nothing to worry about.
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Unread 20 Jul 2003, 00:16   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by RealJames
Ebs and I find it more fun to work for mutual gain that compete against each other. Each to their own I suppose. We just want to play the game, and isn't that what it's all about?
Yes, it is.
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Unread 20 Jul 2003, 02:08   #19
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To me it seems the only people that feel they get treated badly by PA-team are the same people who get closed every other round, and assosiate with players that obviously got nothing better to do than escorting their fleets. Funny that
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Unread 20 Jul 2003, 02:16   #20
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Unread 20 Jul 2003, 02:31   #21
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Re: Multiple accounts from the same IP

Quote:
Originally posted by RealJames
I understand your consern. I just hope that common sence will be used, and that maybe this will be a chance to get rid of more cheaters and not ruin the game for you and others in your situation.
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Unread 20 Jul 2003, 04:23   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ragrrr
To me it seems the only people that feel they get treated badly by PA-team are the same people who get closed every other round, and assosiate with players that obviously got nothing better to do than escorting their fleets. Funny that
Having known Ebany since round 3, I think you require a big cup of shut the **** up. No doubt there are gimps out there who are hoping for 'leniancy', but people with nothing to hide should have nothing to fear. And as for your jibe against 'escorting', I think you look up the term 'valid tactic' in the dictionary (rhetorical point, I doubt it's actually in there /o\). Until the creators ban it, that is. But that's an entirely different rant.

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Unread 20 Jul 2003, 04:36   #23
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Re: Multiple accounts from the same IP

Quote:
Originally posted by RealJames
For those who don't know what I'm on about this is in to have the option of advising PA that there will be x planets being played from your connection. Now ofc you will be required to justify your claim. The methods for doing so and what is considered as sufficient evidence would no doubt be very much open to debate. Speaking personally those PAteam members who went to i16 will be able to vouch for the independent existance of Ebany and myself (I'm the one with the beer gut) and I would think that that would be sufficient justification.
So lets have everyone show up to Spinners house and start explaing PA so that we know they play PA and aren't there just so the other person can have 2 accounts. Its a great idea but can never happen as there is no way to prove it (your case is different but you can't have 1000 people from all over the world seeking out a PATeam member).
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Unread 20 Jul 2003, 09:47   #24
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Re: Re: Multiple accounts from the same IP

Quote:
Originally posted by King
So lets have everyone show up to Spinners house and start explaing PA so that we know they play PA and aren't there just so the other person can have 2 accounts. Its a great idea but can never happen as there is no way to prove it (your case is different but you can't have 1000 people from all over the world seeking out a PATeam member).
It was just an example. I do agree that proving would be an issue, but so is proving that you're not a multi should you be closed and investigated.

The general response seems to be that common sense will prevail. Let's hope so.
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Unread 20 Jul 2003, 11:00   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ragrrr
To me it seems the only people that feel they get treated badly by PA-team are the same people who get closed every other round, and assosiate with players that obviously got nothing better to do than escorting their fleets. Funny that
Dare I ask what you're inferring? I can quite categorically state that neither Ebs or I have ever been closed or contacted by the PAteam regarding any cheating allegation.

If you wish to flame me for being Eclipse then go right ahead, but it's water off a duck's back.
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Unread 20 Jul 2003, 12:29   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by Banned
[BAs to the other point, you'll notice I didn't suggest 'let different computers on the same NAT do whatever they want'. I just wanted them to make full use of the material available. I know of people who live together but use the same PC as well. I wasn't proposing some sort of final solution, hAl, but if you want to try to keep scoring cheap points go ahead. [/b]
Your suggestion just makes is easier to multi. Surely it could help a few people playing on a home netwerk but frankly making it easier to multi is not worth the effort that a few people only can really profit from.

Furthermore you should really read posts before commenting so negativly on them. I never claimed forbidding same IP's players to
not have to play together to be ideal but just gave the suggestion to compete for rank. I'm not suggestion they play against each other though. They could still be part of same alliance. They could probably even particpate in gal attacks together but it would be unwise to attack the same planets together or reserve defence fleet exclusivly for each other.

People playing from same location already have huge advantages over other people playing alone. A few minor disadvantages is not that horrible and will only make them get on a more equal footing for people playing alone from their location. Moaning so loudly over a an advantage over other people lost or at least being reduced seems a bit over the top. I think it should still be fairly playable but people playing from same IP just have to be cautious not to exploit their natural advantages of sharing location too much and they will be fine.

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Unread 20 Jul 2003, 13:28   #27
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Unread 20 Jul 2003, 13:33   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kileman
When in doubt, use a proxy

(not a web based anonimizer.... a 'real' proxy)

If theres a will theres a way, and this rule will only stop those that dont know much about the internet
I recall seeing somewhere that the use this would be treated in the same way. I can't find the annoucement or log though. Can anyone find it?
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Unread 20 Jul 2003, 16:23   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Kileman
When in doubt, use a proxy

(not a web based anonimizer.... a 'real' proxy)

If theres a will theres a way, and this rule will only stop those that dont know much about the internet
Briljant idea !!

http://home.planetarion.com/news.php?id=222

"1) All proxies and anonymizers are now considered as direct evidence towards cheating."

Advising people to use methodes that are directly linked to cheating in planetarion rules.

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Unread 20 Jul 2003, 17:29   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by hAl
http://home.planetarion.com/news.php?id=222

"1) All proxies and anonymizers are now considered as direct evidence towards cheating."
That would have been what it was that I was on about.
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Unread 27 Jul 2003, 00:27   #31
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Or you could do what i do.

I email someone from the multihunter team or spinner himself and let them know Maddix and I are on the same connection and sometimes on the same computer (depending if his crackhead brother is using the one downstairs)

And i usually ask for a confirmation email back so i can keep it "just in case" tho most ppl know maddix and i are 2 very active players with our own accts even if we do 90% of our attacks together and defend each other as much as possible.

Its worked so far I dont see that changing.

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Unread 27 Jul 2003, 17:57   #32
RealJames
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Quote:
Originally posted by Empress
I email someone from the multihunter team or spinner himself and let them know Maddix and I are on the same connection and sometimes on the same computer (depending if his crackhead brother is using the one downstairs)
That was of sorts what I was proposing. I think I met enough multihunters at i16 for them to know Ebs and I are two entities.
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Unread 28 Jul 2003, 17:32   #33
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Banned contributes so much and asks for so littleBanned contributes so much and asks for so littleBanned contributes so much and asks for so littleBanned contributes so much and asks for so littleBanned contributes so much and asks for so littleBanned contributes so much and asks for so littleBanned contributes so much and asks for so littleBanned contributes so much and asks for so littleBanned contributes so much and asks for so littleBanned contributes so much and asks for so littleBanned contributes so much and asks for so little
Everyone knows that my gf Jesterina plays and I'm going to email them and inform them that we will each be playing our own accounts.
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Unread 28 Jul 2003, 18:03   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by RealJames
That was of sorts what I was proposing. I think I met enough multihunters at i16 for them to know Ebs and I are two entities.
Not all the time :-)
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Unread 28 Jul 2003, 20:02   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zither
Not all the time :-)
I should be so lucky.
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Unread 28 Jul 2003, 20:46   #36
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It is a matter of comparing the advantages and disadvantages of this new rule. Personally, I would rather see some very good players leaving the game due to this rule, than not having this rule and having yet another round where cheaters win.

'Acceptable casualties' is the term describing this I believe. Where I do understand your concern RJ, I would like to point out that this rule is a logical consequence to (the) past round(s), hence the players are to blame, not the people taking the logical step to prevent what the players caused.

I think Empress uses a pretty good way of preventing harm, and I guess in your situation, it will be just peachy.
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