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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:42   #51
Nodrog
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
Land ownership wouldn't exist sonny, don't get confused.

If someone trespasses on a tenanted property (i.e. where the occupants aren't owners), it's still tresspass.

Similarly, eating someone's dog would land you in prison for the same reasons as eating their television.
Surely the reasons for claiming land ownership is unjust also apply to animals? I mean finding a cow in a field and going "hay thats mine now" is just as arbitrary as building a fence around a plot of land, right?.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:47   #52
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Originally posted by Nodrog
Surely the reasons for claiming land ownership is unjust also apply to animals? I mean finding a cow in a field and going "hay thats mine now" is just as arbitrary as building a fence around a plot of land, right?.
As I've said elsewhere, if the amount of land available outstripped demand, or was non-fixed, I'd have no problem with land ownership. Similarly, land is a pre-requisite to freedom, so is more important than, say, ownership of bees.

The supply of animals (as personal possesions, not as part of the means of production in countries which rely heavily on agricultural production) is not fixed, and is not particularly limited either. If land could multiply ten fold within one generation, I'd have no problem with you owning 500 acres.

And I don't particularly advocate private ownership of animals. It seems stupid to me, but it's not something that matters.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:48   #53
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Originally posted by Dante Hicks
And I don't particularly advocate private ownership of animals. It seems stupid to me, but it's not something that matters.
You're a vegetarian then? Or a hunter?
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:50   #54
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
As I've said elsewhere, if the amount of land available outstripped demand, or was non-fixed, I'd have no problem with land ownership. Similarly, land is a pre-requisite to freedom, so is more important than, say, ownership of bees.

The supply of animals (as personal possesions, not as part of the means of production in countries which rely heavily on agricultural production) is not fixed, and is not particularly limited either. If land could multiply ten fold within one generation, I'd have no problem with you owning 500 acres.
What if I was really hungry and couldnt afford food, and my neighbours dog looked really meaty?
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:50   #55
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Originally posted by -CP-
You're a vegetarian then? Or a hunter?
No, I'm neither.

I advocate eating animal products, and the slaughter of animals for said products. However, I don't see the need to own pets, etc. If you're talking about ownership of animals by farmers, etc - then sure. But ultimately I'd prefer if they weren't private concerns, but in the meantime, it doesn't matter, as stated.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:54   #56
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
What if I was really hungry and couldnt afford food, and my neighbours dog looked really meaty?
Depends on whether the owner presses charges for destruction of his posession. As a disinterested party, I'd offer to contribute to the guy getting a new dog (if he cared), but he could bring the matter for arbritration at one of the community discussion centres, or the equivalent.

Ultimately, I'm unsure what the punishment would be for destruction of someones posessions, that'd be up to the community at large to decide. With mitigating circumstances like starvation, I'm sure some agreement could be reached.

p.s. Of course, higher levels of civic participation and social solidarity would mean that people would offer to go get you your food if you had a bad leg.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:55   #57
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woah, marx sure covered all the bases :(
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:56   #58
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
No, I'm neither.

I advocate eating animal products, and the slaughter of animals for said products. However, I don't see the need to own pets, etc. If you're talking about ownership of animals by farmers, etc - then sure. But ultimately I'd prefer if they weren't private concerns, but in the meantime, it doesn't matter, as stated.
I understand. How do you define needs? As in pure physical needs to stay alive or do you see a human need as something more then that? Like emotional needs?
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:57   #59
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Originally posted by Dante Hicks
I wouldn't say so. You were objecting to the fact there is an exception being made because this is "art", whereas normally someone bashing goldfish would be punished under existing legislation. I was merely noting I don't agree with said legislation.
no, I am objecting to him justifying killing by saying it was art. If he had justified himself by saying that he believes that animals are worthless, then that is an entirely seperate but still debatable issue.

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Unread 20 May 2003, 14:05   #60
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Quote:
Originally posted by -CP-
I understand. How do you define needs? As in pure physical needs to stay alive or do you see a human need as something more then that? Like emotional needs?
Well, that's a slightly different issue. Don't misinterpret me. I'm not advocating restricting people's right to own a pet - I personally just don't see the attraction myself, much like black women.

This doesn't make it a bad thing of course. People can do what they want without hurting other humans. I just think pets are a waste of time and money. I'm sure some people feel the same about computers.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 14:22   #61
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Originally posted by Snurx
No, NO! That ain't the same AT ALL.
The idea is exactly the same. What you percieve to be worthless is not worthless to everyone, so it doesnt make it right if that person wants to destroy it.

The same applies to goldfish and black kids. You say it is ok to blend goldfish because to you they are 'just goldfish'. And I'm saying that to a racist it would be ok to pop a black kid because they are 'just a black kid'. You and the racist both view the target if they destruction as 'worthless and irrelevant'.

So you see the idea is exactly the same.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 14:25   #62
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Quote:
Originally posted by CrashTester
The idea is exactly the same. What you percieve to be worthless is not worthless to everyone, so it doesnt make it right if that person wants to destroy it.

The same applies to goldfish and black kids. You say it is ok to blend goldfish because to you they are 'just goldfish'. And I'm saying that to a racist it would be ok to pop a black kid because they are 'just a black kid'. You and the racist both view the target if they destruction as 'worthless and irrelevant'.

So you see the idea is exactly the same.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...t-fallacy.html

PS your trolling in this thread has been excellent
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Unread 20 May 2003, 14:30   #63
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Originally posted by Nodrog
http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...t-fallacy.html
Ta, that site is now in my Favourites.

Actually, I have just noticed that Favourites is spelt Favorites. I demand a correct browser!
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Unread 20 May 2003, 14:30   #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by CrashTester
The idea is exactly the same. What you percieve to be worthless is not worthless to everyone, so it doesnt make it right if that person wants to destroy it.
So what is your criteria for right and wrong then? Let's say you like eating carrots. There might be an individual (or society) in the world which condemns this behaviour as immoral or wrong. Does that make your behaviour wrong?

Clearly individuals can only act and make judgements based on their own sets of values. Animals and people are objectively different. This may not matter to you of course, and you are under no obligation to follow mine or Snurx's reasoning.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 14:30   #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nodrog
http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...t-fallacy.html
Ah fk, Im at work and dont have time to read all that. Summarise it for me. Its says Im right innit?

Edit: dont worry, its not as long as I thought!
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Unread 20 May 2003, 14:31   #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by Proteus
Ta, that site is now in my Favourites.

Actually, I have just noticed that Favourites is spelt Favorites. I demand a correct browser!
Its actually spelt "bookmarks", unless you settle for inferior products.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 14:32   #67
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Its actually spelt "bookmarks", unless you settle for inferior products.
I settle for being lazy and using what my computer came with.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 14:33   #68
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Re: Im taking 300 Goldfish to Denmark

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Im taking 300 Goldfish to Denmark
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Unread 20 May 2003, 14:39   #69
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
So what is your criteria for right and wrong then? Let's say you like eating carrots. There might be an individual (or society) in the world which condemns this behaviour as immoral or wrong. Does that make your behaviour wrong?

Clearly individuals can only act and make judgements based on their own sets of values. Animals and people are objectively different. This may not matter to you of course, and you are under no obligation to follow mine or Snurx's reasoning.
When dealing with sentinel creatures it is simply not acceptable to kill them for what basically amounts to nothing more than 'fun'. This includes goldfish and black kids.

I'll not make it any more complicated than that.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 14:44   #70
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Careful now......
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Unread 20 May 2003, 14:46   #71
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Unread 20 May 2003, 14:47   #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by CrashTester
sentinel creatures
I assume you mean sentient.

I also assume you can give us a good description of what sentient is, and how we can tell if something is sentient or not.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 14:54   #73
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Quote:
Originally posted by Radical Edward
I assume you mean sentient.

I also assume you can give us a good description of what sentient is, and how we can tell if something is sentient or not.

I say we run it through a sort of mind-numbingly boring and repetitive maze involving many pointless feats and stupid acts that must be carried out. We could then rename it humanity and be proud of our originality.










PS lol
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Unread 20 May 2003, 14:58   #74
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Quote:
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I assume you mean sentient.

I also assume you can give us a good description of what sentient is, and how we can tell if something is sentient or not.
No, I meant sentinel. They were these things I saw in a cartoon once.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 14:58   #75
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Quote:
Originally posted by Radical Edward
I assume you mean sentient.

I also assume you can give us a good description of what sentient is, and how we can tell if something is sentient or not.
Well.. English is not my native language and I'm probably wrong, but I though sentient ment something like thinking like a human or something like that?
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Unread 20 May 2003, 15:01   #76
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Quote:
sentient

1) Having sense perception; conscious.

2) Experiencing sensation or feeling.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 15:01   #77
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Quote:
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No, I meant sentinel. They were these things I saw in a cartoon once.
"lol"
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Unread 20 May 2003, 15:06   #78
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lol, i havent read all the thread cause its gotten long since i last looked.

however, the funny part of this is that the whole point of the artists exhibition was to get ppl to think about this stuff. so hazaaaa \o/

success for him.

you, GD, have just discussed, at great length, art.

and it was supposed to be provacative, it was supposed to make you question morality and whether, if given the chance to chose between life and death for someone/thing other than you, could you do it, and what would you chose.



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Unread 20 May 2003, 15:09   #79
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Quote:
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lol, i havent read all the thread cause its gotten long since i last looked.

You are right, you havent read it. We are now talking about black kids, not art.

thats
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Unread 20 May 2003, 15:10   #80
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i got as far as the black kids bit. and its the same difference. my point still stands.


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Unread 20 May 2003, 15:14   #81
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Quote:
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i got as far as the black kids bit. and its the same difference. my point still stands.


I definately disagree. Black kids are not art, ffs.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 15:16   #82
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black kids in a blender could be art. though i have an inkling it may be more than slightly illegal.


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Unread 20 May 2003, 15:16   #83
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Quote:
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success for him.
indeed, and I was fully aware that this was the point all along, as that seems to be the only point of art these days. Indeed it seems to be a common current thought that all art is, is something provocative merely because it has been defined as art and were it not defined as art beforehand, it would just be disgusting (Tracy Emin's Bed) or illegal (this recent work)
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Unread 21 May 2003, 00:38   #84
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Re: Re: Im taking 300 Goldfish to Denmark

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Kura in 'luggage collectively more intelligent than him' un-shocker.
Ive eaten Kebabs that can outscore you in IQ tests Mr.Tier
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Unread 21 May 2003, 07:55   #85
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Re: Re: Re: Im taking 300 Goldfish to Denmark

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Ive eaten Kebabs that can outscore you in IQ tests Mr.Tier
Golfdfish Kebab?
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