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Unread 19 May 2003, 22:08   #1
Kurashima
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Im taking 300 Goldfish to Denmark

Cos this is legal baby!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3040891.stm

Those crazy Danes!
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Unread 19 May 2003, 22:19   #2
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Danes are ! But, on the topic, its nice to see that they were cleared, as art should be provokative, or at least be allowed to be.
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Unread 19 May 2003, 22:37   #3
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he shoule have had to pay the fine, he was meant to have disconnected them so no bastard coule press the button :/
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Unread 19 May 2003, 23:43   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snurx
Danes are ! But, on the topic, its nice to see that they were cleared, as art should be provokative, or at least be allowed to be.
It's not art.

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Unread 19 May 2003, 23:54   #5
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THEY ARE ONLY FKING GOLDFISH FFS

but its crap art :\



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Unread 20 May 2003, 00:09   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ap0k
THEY ARE ONLY FKING GOLDFISH FFS

but its crap art :\



THEY ARE ONLY IRAQI CHILDREN FFS

and it is war!

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Unread 20 May 2003, 00:14   #7
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Jesus ****ing Christ, with the reaction this is getting if I chuck my seven goldfish down the pan because I don't want them any more that's 'not on but hey! that's life' but if I call it art and have my flatmate pull the flush I'm doing something that wrong?

**** me, go campaign about cruelty to proper animals you beatniks.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 10:11   #8
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Quote:
Originally posted by pablissimo
**** me, go campaign about cruelty to proper animals you beatniks.
suck my helmet?
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Unread 20 May 2003, 10:40   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by WorkMonkey
Which basically means I can go out and and smash a guys head in with a sledghammer, the instant death means its art
yay for art. Lets all go abuse some kids, CUS ITS ART!!!
this is essentially what he has said.

<edit> no it isn't. he said killing in the name of art is ok, not killing is art.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 10:51   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by WorkMonkey
Which basically means I can go out and and smash a guys head in with a sledghammer, the instant death means its art
yay for art. Lets all go abuse some kids, CUS ITS ART!!!
There is quite a big difference between human beings and goldfish. Or people and cows, dogs, cats, chickens, etc.

If I told you that only a few miles down the road, human beings were being dragged through blood, electro-shocked and then cut to pieces on an industrial scale, would you do anything about it?

If not, then you're a useless apathetic sucmmor. If you would, then why not do the same for cows?
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Unread 20 May 2003, 10:55   #11
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Quote:
Originally posted by CrashTester
suck my helmet?
Thanks, but no.

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Unread 20 May 2003, 10:57   #12
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Now now Dante, there are only a limited supply of animals and we must preserve them for the future of the human race, and prevent the evil capitalist imperialist overlord oppressors of the working class get their hands on what should be equally shared out amongst all of us. One man should not be entitled to create art until everyone has been able to do it.













(God I love internet sarcasm :))))))
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Unread 20 May 2003, 11:00   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vaio
It's not art.

Vaio
Why not?


Workmonkey: What dante said is
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Unread 20 May 2003, 11:20   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vaio
It's not art.

Vaio
what is art then?
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Unread 20 May 2003, 12:10   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Obliterate
what is art then?
Paintings and stuff, innit?

Glodfish in blenders is clearly a daytime cookery program innit?
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Unread 20 May 2003, 12:11   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by pablissimo
Thanks, but no.

Beatnik.
Go on, it has cheese on it just for you.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 12:18   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by WorkMonkey
Life.
Is.
Life.
Hippies.
Are.
Dirty.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 12:22   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by WorkMonkey
Life.
Is.
Life.
Are you advocating treating plant-life in the same way as humans? Are you a buddhist-vegan or something?

And answer my original question.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 12:23   #19
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There is a slight difference between killing a cow for food and liquidising a fish because you think (incorrectly) that you are an artist.

As a famous art critic once said, much to the chagrin of fish-liquidisers everywhere, when asked what art was:

Quote:
Paintings and stuff, innit?
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Unread 20 May 2003, 12:28   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Proteus
There is a slight difference between killing a cow for food and liquidising a fish because you think (incorrectly) that you are an artist.

As a famous art critic once said, much to the chagrin of fish-liquidisers everywhere, when asked what art was:

Art is so much more then "paintings and stuff." Locking yourself in a cage for seven days is art, painting a subway whit spraypaint is art, comick books is(or can be) art, statues is art, propaganda can be art, art can be so much more then just paintings, and anybody who defines art will live a life whitout much color, (or so i would like to image, there's my generalisation again )

Who cares about the goldfish anyways? There are so many problems in the world, that a few dead goldfish don't bother me much. Of course, if it was a endangered species, i would maybe have cautioned the artist to make it non-lethal or something, but hey, two freggin goldfish?
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Unread 20 May 2003, 12:34   #21
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snurx
Who cares about the goldfish anyways? There are so many problems in the world, that a few dead goldfish don't bother me much. Of course, if it was a endangered species, i would maybe have cautioned the artist to make it non-lethal or something, but hey, two freggin goldfish?
The BNP feel exactly the same way about black kids. I mean, popping two black kids isnt really a big deal to some people cos' hey, its only two freggin black kids innit?
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Unread 20 May 2003, 12:36   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snurx
Who cares about the goldfish anyways? There are so many problems in the world, that a few dead goldfish don't bother me much. Of course, if it was a endangered species, i would maybe have cautioned the artist to make it non-lethal or something, but hey, two freggin goldfish?
wow, so the fact that there are other problems makes the problems of the goldfish irrelevant?
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Unread 20 May 2003, 12:36   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by CrashTester
The BNP feel exactly the same way about black kids. I mean, popping two black kids isnt really a big deal to some people cos' hey, its only two freggin black kids innit?
the BNP aren't (publically) quite that bad.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 12:38   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by Proteus
There is a slight difference between killing a cow for food and liquidising a fish because you think (incorrectly) that you are an artist.
There is a difference, yes.

But how is one worse?

Either one of these is true :

- Fish don't have "rights" as such, and therefore we can treat them as we wish, with due care taken for not to make them extinct, etc

- Fish do have full rights, and anyone who eats one is a murderer. Killing one gratuitously maybe be worse here, but since we don't have to eat fish (we could easily survive these days with veg alone).

- Fish occupy a grey area where they have some rights, or we should care a bit, but not enough to disrupt my dinner.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 12:38   #25
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Originally posted by Snurx
Art is so much more then "paintings and stuff."
No it's not.

Quote:
Originally posted by Snurx
Locking yourself in a cage for seven days is art
No, that's what we call "stupid".

Quote:
Originally posted by Snurx
painting a subway whit spraypaint is art
Operative word being "painting".

Quote:
Originally posted by Snurx
comick books is(or can be) art
"Drawing" comes under "stuff".

Quote:
Originally posted by Snurx
statues is art
As does "sculpture".

Quote:
Originally posted by Snurx
propaganda can be art
Artistic expression in propaganda (posters etc.) can be art, but the propaganda itself isn't. (It's probably literature.)

Quote:
Originally posted by Snurx
art can be so much more then just paintings, and anybody who defines art will live a life whitout much color, (or so i would like to image, there's my generalisation again )
Don't be silly.

Quote:
Originally posted by Snurx
Who cares about the goldfish anyways? There are so many problems in the world, that a few dead goldfish don't bother me much. Of course, if it was a endangered species, i would maybe have cautioned the artist to make it non-lethal or something, but hey, two freggin goldfish?
You can't justify causing suffering to animals because they are common. Dogs aren't endangered. Would liquidising a dog be okay with you?
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Unread 20 May 2003, 12:40   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by CrashTester
The BNP feel exactly the same way about black kids. I mean, popping two black kids isnt really a big deal to some people cos' hey, its only two freggin black kids innit?
That's so different that i won't even be able to come up whit a suitabale reply.

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Originally posted by Radical Edward
wow, so the fact that there are other problems makes the problems of the goldfish irrelevant?
In my eyes, yes. I could not care less about two goldfish. If you want to care, go ahead! But don't expect me to do.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 12:42   #27
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Snurx, how would you feel if it were two snurxes liquidised in a blender? Hmmmm?
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Unread 20 May 2003, 12:43   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snurx
That's so different that i won't even be able to come up whit a suitabale reply.



In my eyes, yes. I could not care less about two goldfish. If you want to care, go ahead! But don't expect me to do.
Hey, do you realised you actually answered the first point with your second response, assuming the view of a racist, even though you said you wouldnt be able to? Cool!
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Unread 20 May 2003, 12:44   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snurx
In my eyes, yes. I could not care less about two goldfish. If you want to care, go ahead! But don't expect me to do.
I don't particularly care, but enough to say that it is easier to not kill them, so they shouldn't be killed, in the same way that I don't just chop down trees for the hell of it, or rip up flowers. I am not going to get all "animal righty" on anyone, but I don't condone senseless death of anything.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 12:53   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by CrashTester
The BNP feel exactly the same way about black kids. I mean, popping two black kids isnt really a big deal to some people cos' hey, its only two freggin black kids innit?
Are you implying black people are the same as goldfish?
Quote:
Originally posted by Proteus
Dogs aren't endangered. Would liquidising a dog be okay with you?
That'd be fine with me, but I don't see the point. I'd be worried if someone randomly decided to kill a dog, but only because I'd think they were nuts. The actual act of killing a dog doesn't bother me in the slightest. If it did, there's no way I could eat Chinese food...
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Unread 20 May 2003, 12:55   #31
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Quote:
Originally posted by Proteus
No it's not
My, oh my, why not? Video's can be art, for example. Then there is the whole performance art thing, plus a ****load of other things that my silly little tired mind can't conjure up the names off!

Quote:
Originally posted by Proteus
No, that's what we call "stupid".
There is a norwegian guy named Kristoffer Schau that did just that. He locked himself into a former shop window, in Norway's most traveld street (shopping street, that is) for seven days. It was absolutely brilliant, and a perfect example of provokative performance art! (In my eyes, that is)

Quote:
Originally posted by Proteus
Operative word being "painting".
"Drawing" comes under "stuff".
As does "sculpture".
Artistic expression in propaganda (posters etc.) can be art, but the propaganda itself isn't. (It's probably literature.)
Ok, ok, the spraypaint was stupid.
But what does come under stuff then?
Oh, my boy, propaganda can be art, if done correctly. Look at the whole "street art" thing that's becoming more and more popular, whit stickers, posters, sjablongs etc. Some of that is pure propaganda (take to **** the world etc) but still, fabolous art. (Or maybe propaganda inspired is more rigth.. )

Quote:
Originally posted by Proteus

Don't be silly.
But i like being silly! Besides, i love to generalize, beacuse its fun, and people become angry, and calle me silly..

Quote:
Originally posted by Proteus
You can't justify causing suffering to animals because they are common. Dogs aren't endangered. Would liquidising a dog be okay with you?
I would not really care, no. I migth think its stupid to waste good meat, but hey, you can do whatever you want!
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Unread 20 May 2003, 12:59   #32
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Quote:
Originally posted by CrashTester
Hey, do you realised you actually answered the first point with your second response, assuming the view of a racist, even though you said you wouldnt be able to? Cool!
I did?
If so, then im stupid, and don't listen to me etc.
Oh, and Snurx's are almost like people, and if somebody starts killing people for the fun of it, then i would become angry or whatever. (I would care)

Radical: Of course, thats true. But hey, there are so much **** in the world, two goldfish won't bother me. (as i've said a million times now )
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:01   #33
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dante Hicks
Are you implying black people are the same as goldfish?
What i am saying is that in some peoples eyes black kids would be considered as worthless as a goldfish is to snurx and that if you apply the same rules then the situations are in fact no different - if you accept its OK to blend goldfish for art then it should be OK for a racist to blend black kids.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:01   #34
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:04   #35
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Quote:
Originally posted by CrashTester
What i am saying is that in some peoples eyes black kids would be considered as worthless as a goldfish is to snurx and that if you apply the same rules then the situations are in fact no different - if you accept its OK to blend goldfish for art then it should be OK for a racist to blend black kids.
No, NO! That ain't the same AT ALL.
How would the racists justify it? For fun, for hate? The goldfish were killed in the "name" of art, and even thought it was stupid and not really very provokative art, it spanned a lot of response, and therefore, became really good art (Again in my eyes)
Killing blacks beacause they are blacks would also get a lot of response, but it can't be compared. Black's are humans, fish are not. There's a WORLD of difference. Besides, killing somebody beacause of their color is hatefull and racist, killing goldfish is just stupid.
(I don't think this makes sense, but im tired )
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:05   #36
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Quote:
Originally posted by CrashTester
What i am saying is that in some peoples eyes black kids would be considered as worthless as a goldfish is to snurx and that if you apply the same rules then the situations are in fact no different - if you accept its OK to blend goldfish for art then it should be OK for a racist to blend black kids.
Erm...I eat meat. I think it's "OK" to eat meat. Are you saying that because I think it's OK to eat (say) chicken, it's ok to eat black people?

And obviously I act and judge according to my values. That's how everyone behaves, one imagines.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:10   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snurx
My, oh my, why not? Video's can be art, for example. Then there is the whole performance art thing, plus a ****load of other things that my silly little tired mind can't conjure up the names off!
Videos are a medium of data storage. Things that appear on videos are either drama or music. I suppose you could have a video of paintings, but it seems unlikely.

Quote:
Originally posted by Snurx
There is a norwegian guy named Kristoffer Schau that did just that. He locked himself into a former shop window, in Norway's most traveld street (shopping street, that is) for seven days. It was absolutely brilliant, and a perfect example of provokative performance art! (In my eyes, that is)
Like I said, drama, not art. Of course it depends what he did. If he just stood there and did nothing he was stupid.

Quote:
Originally posted by Snurx
Ok, ok, the spraypaint was stupid.
But what does come under stuff then?
Paintings, drawings, carvings, embroidery, sculpture, stuff like that.

Quote:
Originally posted by Snurx
Oh, my boy, propaganda can be art, if done correctly. Look at the whole "street art" thing that's becoming more and more popular, whit stickers, posters, sjablongs etc. Some of that is pure propaganda (take to **** the world etc) but still, fabolous art. (Or maybe propaganda inspired is more rigth.. )
I believe I said that posters could be art. It can be art and propaganda at the same time, but the fact that it is both doesn't indicate that there is any link between the two.

Quote:
Originally posted by Snurx
I would not really care, no. I migth think its stupid to waste good meat, but hey, you can do whatever you want!
That's a fantastic moral code! If you see someone murdering someone else in the street, don't intervene, because hey, he can do whatever he wants!
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:10   #38
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Originally posted by Snurx
There's a WORLD of difference. Besides, killing somebody beacause of their color is hatefull and racist, killing goldfish is just stupid.
The comparison made between the BNP and artist is not correct, because the reasons are totally different. were someone just to start smashing up goldfish for the hell of it, then they would be punished (animal rights laws and so on) but if you killed a person in the name of art, rather than racism and hate, then according to his justification, it would still be ok to kill a person. the inherent "value" of a goldfish or a person is irrelevant.

"It's a question of principle. An artist has the right to create works which defy our concept of what is right and what is wrong," he told the court in Kolding."
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:13   #39
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[b](animal rights laws and so on)[b]
I'm for the repealing of 99% of all animal rights legislation.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:15   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Snurx
I would not really care, no. I migth think its stupid to waste good meat, but hey, you can do whatever you want!
whether you care or not is not the point. millions of people get shot every year, but do you care? I don't. However that doesn't make it okay for them to get shot.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:16   #41
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I'm for the repealing of 99% of all animal rights legislation.
entirely irrelevant.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:18   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Proteus

That's a fantastic moral code! If you see someone murdering someone else in the street, don't intervene, because hey, he can do whatever he wants!
I don't think we will ever agree on the art thing, but hey, thats life.. Anyways, in my eyes, art is a form expression. You can express things whit a video, you can express thing by running around nekkid. Therefore, under the rigth circumstances, that can be art.

BUT, on the whole moral thing: If i saw you trying to murder another person, i would intervene. If i saw you beating up a dog in public for fun, i would intervene. But if you wanted to kill a dog at your home, for fun, i would think you were a sick bastard, but I WOULD NOT CARE. If somebody else did, and punished you for it, i would maybe feel a sligth feeling of "yes", but nothing more. There are a lot more "important" things on my mind.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:20   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Proteus
That's a fantastic moral code! If you see someone murdering someone else in the street, don't intervene, because hey, he can do whatever he wants!
I think here we return to the point of Goldfish not being the same as people.

Imho (and it seems to be a common opinion, not that makes it more valid of course) animals aren't deserving of the same protection as humans. If someone assaults (kills, eats, whatever) a human they should be punished. I don't believe the same should hold for animals. Therefore, I don't see why this gentleman is an evil barbarian, but people who work in the local butchers aren't...

Sure, we need to eat, so it justifies it - but we don't need to eat meat anymore (if we ever did). So that argument evaporates. So what's the difference?
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:20   #44
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apathy rules ok.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:21   #45
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Quote:
Originally posted by pablissimo
Jesus ****ing Christ, with the reaction this is getting if I chuck my seven goldfish down the pan because I don't want them any more that's 'not on but hey! that's life' but if I call it art and have my flatmate pull the flush I'm doing something that wrong?

**** me, go campaign about cruelty to proper animals you beatniks.
Allthough I see your point I think it is the thought of killing a defenceless creature (no matter what it is, or how unintelligent it is) for artistic and ertertainment purposes that makes me react. I think it is low.. If someone used a hammer on a puppy and called it art would that be acceptable?
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:22   #46
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Originally posted by Dante Hicks
I think here we return to the point of Goldfish not being the same as people.

Sure, we need to eat, so it justifies it - but we don't need to eat meat anymore (if we ever did). So that argument evaporates. So what's the difference?
The difference is in his justification of it. of course the punishment should be proportional to the crime, but saying "well it is art" should be no defence in a case like this.
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:28   #47
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Originally posted by Radical Edward
entirely irrelevant.
I wouldn't say so. You were objecting to the fact there is an exception being made because this is "art", whereas normally someone bashing goldfish would be punished under existing legislation. I was merely noting I don't agree with said legislation.

As for the art argument, it's futile. But obviously drama or music can be an artform, it's silly to suggest otherwise.

And yes smashing puppies up with sledgehammers would be acceptable, ffs....
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:29   #48
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Originally posted by Dante Hicks
And yes smashing puppies up with sledgehammers would be acceptable, ffs....
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:38   #49
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Originally posted by Dante Hicks
I'm for the repealing of 99% of all animal rights legislation.
If there are no animal rights laws and private property doesnt exist, does that mean I can go into my neighbours house and eat his dog?
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Unread 20 May 2003, 13:40   #50
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Originally posted by Nodrog
If there are no animal rights laws and private property doesnt exist, does that mean I can go into my neighbours house and eat his dog?
Land ownership wouldn't exist sonny, don't get confused.

If someone trespasses on a tenanted property (i.e. where the occupants aren't owners), it's still tresspass.

Similarly, eating someone's dog would land you in prison for the same reasons as eating their television.
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