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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 10:53   #101
karis
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on my way to delete my account then, seeing as i myself could also be accused of some form of breaking pa laws.

Rumad, as a lawyer could you tell me if written rules outweighs spoken rules ?
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 10:53   #102
Scouse
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Can you Rabba supporters please stop making him out to be some sort of fool who didn't know ship farming and/or roid farming was cheating and punishable by deletion.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 10:56   #103
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rumad
I live in the world of UK business. At the moment I read nine legal documents which I have to agree with a major supplier as part of my project.

I think I have a better grasp of UK legal principles than you and in any court were a service is provided and is delivered in another country UK law will take precedent.

What Rabba has done is simply a breach of his contractual obligations. We all sign up, we all know the rules. We agree to them fully and unequivocably at the start of the round. Any form of mispractice or blatant cheating is simply a breach. The coverall see’s to that. It is like being ejected from a public house, the management reserve the right to not let you in in the uk and there is nothig you can do about it.

Rabba knew the rules. Rabba agreed to the rules. There are no grey area’s, he knows what is right and what is allowed. Anything else is a piss take.

Pls stop talking about the law CBK cause you are clearly clueless
I don't think you point out anywhere, where you tell me that I'm wrong. All you say is that rabba knew about the rules and agreed to the rules and I can only agree with you... cause the rules are the manual. beside that he has agreed to nothing so actualy its you who is clueless.

In fact there is a chance that rabba didn't know it was "illegal" since I have had talks to him and A LOT other about it being legal... Nomatter what you can NEVER proof that he knew and then you can't use it for anything. Not that it matters though since its not in the rules.

Maybe you should try to read rob's post, cause it is rather nice and you will learn a lot from it.

cbk
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 11:00   #104
karis
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all im trying to say is it takes two to farm, and if rabba is to be closed fair enough so should the other planet and so far no one has even mentioned this other planet.

would anyone like to call me a 'Rabba Supporter' just because im in wp?

Im actually not fighting for Rabba, im fighting for justice

i reiterate, if rabba is to be closed fair enough so should the other planet and so far no one has even mentioned this other planet.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 11:01   #105
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Quote:
Originally posted by karis
on my way to delete my account then, seeing as i myself could also be accused of some form of breaking pa laws.

Rumad, as a lawyer could you tell me if written rules outweighs spoken rules ?
Rumad isn't a lawyer, he does work with relevant contract law though
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 11:02   #106
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Quote:
Originally posted by TrinTara
Roid farming is the perfect precedent to spout actually. Seems cbk could not find a specific reference to that either, yet people have been deleted for it.

In making that comment I do not concede that the rules are not clear, especially to experienced players. I am simply pointint out to you how the concept of precedent works.

Trin
Actualy I have not heard of any who has been closed for ship farming, but there might be some. But then again... do everyone know about those cases where ppl has been closed for roid farmig?
How can you expect some n00b to know about such cases?

PA HQ should simply update that manual when new rules are made. Failure to do so will mean that they can't be used as law and you can't be judged by them.

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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 11:05   #107
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Quote:
Originally posted by karis
all im trying to say is it takes two to farm, and if rabba is to be closed fair enough so should the other planet and so far no one has even mentioned this other planet.
Only one was farming, the other was being farmed (however willingly). Although personally I'd like to see them gone too
Quote:
would anyone like to call me a 'Rabba Supporter' just because im in wp?
Most on here I think you'll find actually like him, the problem is he doesn't have a leg to stand on in terms of the rules.
Quote:
Im actually not fighting for Rabba, im fighting for justice
Is this a Captain America comic now? He farmed, he got caught, he got closed. Justice
Quote:
i reiterate, if rabba is to be closed fair enough so should the other planet and so far no one has even mentioned this other planet.
See above
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 11:08   #108
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rumad
This is not an excuse under UK law, hence the argument is dead.
Am I right in believing that UK law requires you to actively seek out rules/laws? i.e. if they were there somewhere it's your obligation to find and read them and not the obligation of the rule writer to come find you?

It's too long since I did law
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 11:11   #109
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could someone at least have the common sense to close the second planet

If rabba is to be closed.. Fine!!

if the other account is not closed it does rather begger the belief that rabba is being closed for farming.

If he has cheated as you say he has.. yes he should be closed, yet if the second account who he is supposed to have farmed with is not closed then how can this be called farming?
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 11:14   #110
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Quote:
Originally posted by Cicada
IT WAS ON THE MESSAGE OF THE DAY FOR LIKE 2 WEEKS YOU **** WIT
it said that farming was illegal, yes but do all define ship farming is the same as roid farming? from this post it shows that they didn't and in fact I never read message of the day. We MUST or at least should read the user agreements b43 we sign up but its not like we are to read message of the day... as rob stated earlier its simply not a valid place to post such info. It MUST be in the manual...

cbk
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 11:21   #111
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rumad
Firstly the thread is designed by cbk in a rather piss poor challenge of whether the deletion is legal.

Secondly yes creators have baulked under pressure, but there are several other people that should be deleted also. They have been way to lenient this round.

Thirdly the legal argument is exactly and precisely important. If you want to challenge this it would be via the UK courts. There is no other judge in the law of tort.

In this instance I believe Rabba was fairly punished. He has played several rounds and knows the rules that govern this game. He has been a HC for several rounds and has no doubt seen the well documented deletion of previous rounds.

I remember as far back as when zikonian and races were introduced. It was explained that FARMING of any sort would not be acceptable. It took them a while to implement, but they did.

Ppl should realise that any form of fleet assists, cheating and multying are simply NOT ACCEPTABLE.

Being allianceless I have no spin, but if we are to improve the community we have to get rid of the cheaters and cheating.
Well noone has managed to put a finger on the evidence I have provided so why is it not good that its made by me compared to if it was made by another?

In fact I'm quite sure that ship farming was allowed last round and r7 so I don't think it was explained that ship farming was not allowed.... if it was co clear and if it has been a rule for several rounds would a person like Dreadnought then ask if its allowed in a CH?

Well I think not and I'm quite sure that you don't belive that either.

And btw. rabba is not a cheater cause he has not broken any rules. only some of the moraly created rulses and that can never make him a cheater.

cbk
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 11:23   #112
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Quote:
Originally posted by N0VA
If Dreadnought had instead PM'd Spinner instead of asking him in Creator's Hour, and then Spinner posted their irc log on the portal - then it would be a clear case that they did an inadequate job of conveying the rules change to the players.

That the question was instead addressed in a Creator's Hour becomes irrelevant though when you look at the percentage of total players that attend or read entire logs of _every_ Creator's Hour. Furthermore, Rabba's contract did not involve him keeping up to date with what notifications are made over the portal or in Creator's Hour.

Therefore, the Creator's are under their contractual obligation with him (clause 3) to cause the new rule to be binding to him when he is made aware of it. The obvious place to put this rules change is in overview, since every player is taken to overview when they access their account - the only time they could violate a rule such as farming. An announcement could also be made over the official announcements section of the forums, and then have a link to it in overview.

Bottom line is that Rabbagast _did not_ break his contract, and thus the only ground for deletion is the catch all clause 7. If PA crew ever resorts to deleting people on the grounds of clause 7, then their ability to manage a p2p environment ought to come into question.
just as you don't ahve to read the CH log you don't have to read overview so to post it there is not good enough
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 11:30   #113
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One presumes that this secondary account has not been close so everyone who wants rabba closed for cheating is just plain and simple using rabba as a victim.. both so called rabba fans [which i apparently am for wanting the secondary account involved in the farming closed] and those who feel that rabba should be closed


WHAT ABOUT THE SECONDARY ACCOUNT!!! WHY HAS THIS ACCOUNT NOT BEEN CLOSED!!!

Farming is farming.. takes two to farm and yet the second account hasnt been closed for some odd reason which to my mind.. whether rabba cheated or not is irrelevant so therefore, re-open his account. Unless you close the other account what leg do you have to stand on?
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 11:35   #114
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One presumes that this secondary account has not been close so everyone who wants rabba closed for cheating is just plain and simple using rabba as a victim.. both so called rabba fans [which i apparently am for wanting the secondary account involved in the farming closed] and those who feel that rabba should be closed


WHAT ABOUT THE SECONDARY ACCOUNT!!! WHY HAS THIS ACCOUNT NOT BEEN CLOSED!!!

Farming is farming.. takes two to farm and yet the second account hasnt been closed for some odd reason which to my mind.. whether rabba cheated or not is irrelevant so therefore, re-open his account. Unless you close the other account what leg do you have to stand on?
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 11:38   #115
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apologies for spamming

page wasnt loading fast enough for it to see you had posted.

well you know what i mean
okay

if secondary planet is deleted also.. then im happier

still feel farming rules of all kinds should be put in the contract that we agree to when we sign up tho so saving crap like this happening in future.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 11:44   #116
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Quote:
Originally posted by cbk100
just as you don't ahve to read the CH log you don't have to read overview so to post it there is not good enough
Neither do you have to read your mail nor answer your phone nor read your email nor the anouncements on the forums.

You'd be a fool if you didn't though.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 11:47   #117
karis
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rumad hun

if the other accounts are not closed, what then? should Rabba still be closed?

heh im asking just for your opinion on this.. not whether rabba cheated or not.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 11:53   #118
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A roidfarm in my small random galaxy has been closed now for a week, the happy farmer keeps on playing his top250 planet without ever beeing closed for it...

There just doesnt seem to be any logic in the closings
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 12:23   #119
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Quote:
Originally posted by cbk100
Are you really so stupit that you think creators can close accounts for anything they want?

This is a game they try to keep running and if they want to keep on doing that they have to run it in a professional way and to run it in a professional way is NOT what they have done here.

And yes by law they can close anything they want, but as I said they can't do it if they want to keep their respect and want to keep the game running. And furthermore Prince has agreed that it was the mass that closed the account and not his will.

Can you find anywhere in the manual where it says that its the mass that rules above HQ and that its the mass that can close whatever they want?

I can't!!!

cbk
Yes, the creators can close any planet in the game, and you are stupid if you think otherwise. However, we are lucky they stick to only closing the cheaters. Stop arguing, you are both on legal and ethic low ground.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 12:29   #120
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for Once I agree with Rumad
but only because hes right

cbk your trying to stickup for your friend thats cool and all, but ignorance would not get you out of a drunk driveing charge in Canada, (from what i read UK either) we can relate the ignorance of the NO farming rule that was posted on the overview (which is all encompassing ship/roid ) and is not appliciable here either,.
All farms and multies should be closed.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 13:04   #121
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From another thread on the same topic, also applies here i think:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by N0VA
I ask you to read the words you are quoting and actually contemplate about what they mean:

"to those thinking about farming - remember the great eye is ever watchful"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If you actually take them word by word it means only those who think about farming not who farm already , please dont insult Rabbas intelligence to understand that.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Farming in Planetarion has _always_ been used to describe the unchallenged acquisition of asteroids by attacking friends and alliance mates. When "Farming" was declared illegal in Round 7, ship farming was still allowed - hence establishing a precedence that Farming and Ship Farming are two separate actions. Because of this, the statement in the overview does not give anyone a reason to consider Ship Farming as an action under watch.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Farming is no definitioncase, before r9 started there was a long downtime and i guess anyone who choosed Zik had enough opportunity to inform himself over special rules and to remove all doubts, especially if you go for the #1 spot and know the top10 are sticky grounds.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now, if the creator's are willing to make comments about actions they are watching out for, why could they have not worded it such as "to those thinking about farming either ships or asteroids - remember the great eye is ever watchful". By adding those four little words, there would have been no debate about this whatsoever.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Basically because they calculate on the intelligence of the ppl playing this game, i honestly doubt rabba would like it how you describe him here and i honestly doubt he as the leading WP hc never saw a log of a CH never visited the portal never visited the Overview. Because if you claim so its debateable if he would have read the useragreement either or "understood it".
On the otherhand Creators have the "judge" function here, so infact they are not the "accusers" or the "defenders" of a case, they have the find the final result for it. And this results is undebateable, because there is no higher jury who could challenge that.
You might debate how unfair this is but i think that goes now far off the point, because shipfarming was illegal and you cant claim that those rules apply only if you bother to look for them or if your views and definitions match with the creators.
I guess its valid to throw up certain scenarios here to defend or to damn his actions. But as i have not seen rabba raising his word here, i guess he will have it sorted with creators.
The facts remain, that he did something which was by common sense and towards a majority of players well known illegal. Ppl were closed for less and deleted for far less and imo (my personal view) the #1 planet has the obligation to be 150% pure just because he is the one all are looking on (quests) and because he is the "example" everyone measures at.
I havent gotten into this much myself so i wont judge rabba from the facts i have seen here on the forums, but afterall this is like football only a game, if the referee says goal its a goal and if he says foul its a foul, There is no 100% right or wrong as we all know if u want to cheat and plan it you can do much better then that without getting caught. So i will only say, we all should maybe let the authorities and Rabba sort that between themself and give ourself a break, because we neitehr will change the results nor would we do rabba a favour with it.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 13:13   #122
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Farming is getting something for free.

You LOSE an EQUAL ammount of resources for the new ships you gain.

Ship farming is flawed now, but would have been applicable in round 2. This != round 2.
Dont Play Ziks very much do you. Having Played Ziks every round including beta and Speed rounds i know quiet a bit about them, and the amount of attacks that i have done over the past few rounds where i actually go up in score because of the way the ships cap, certain Zik ships cap at a better rate than others.

I think last round or round 7 my best attack for gaining ships & roids meant that i actually came out of the 3 tick attack with a gain of 200k score just in the ships i stole.

Plus the main reason that a zik ship farms is not to gain any score even though you can, its to make the ziks fleets almost impossible to hit, the zik fleet even on its own is a very powerful fleet, you start adding in the best of the other races and you have a fleet that has no weaknesses. Now under normal battle you very rarely get the ships you want. Ship farming gives you those ships that you want and also means you dont end up with the crap ships.

Thus giving u an unfair advantage, which has been stated as a No NO even in previous rounds.

Any player that has played a few rounds knows that it is looked upon as cheating to say anything else is the biggest load of bullocks i've ever seen on these boards in all my time here.

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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 13:28   #123
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Ive seen a couple times in this thread people stating that there is no benefit from ship farming. Its quite hard to take anything from someone who would say such a flawed thing seriously. If someone cant see the immense benefits from farming ships, then maybe its time to find a new game with less emphasis on numbers.

I also wonder what Rabba thinks that his so called supporters are having to argue the fact that he was too stupid to know the rules of the game. Because thats what it is going on here. Its like when you were in school and there was a "slow" kid that done something wrong and wasnt punished as much as the normal kids because "they didnt know any better". Because you can argue it all you wish, an alliance HC that expects his or her members to follow the rules, while not knowing them for themselves IS stupidity. Or incompetence, whichever you want to use. He cheated, got caught, got deleted. The "he didnt know" crap might work if he was a new player or if the whole community was new players that will believe anything put in front of them, but common people, anyone who has been here any amount of time can see how retarded that argument is. So stop calling him stupid and let him take responsibility for his actions.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 13:30   #124
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Quote:
Originally posted by Obfuscator

1. Ship farming has less detrimental effects on the game than roid farming, multi'ing, OR account sharing.
ROFL

Ship Farming has just as much effect on the universe as the roid farming and multi'ing etc..

lets look at it from early in the game say no further than FR fleets available.

Now as a zik I have 2 stealing ships capable of stealing Fr down to Fi, Now lets look at what he can do to boost his fleet, let me guess Vultures oh look i can now attack with a co attack fleet with more punch in it than the Xand Co attack fleets.

Then we move onto De, oh look i can have some nice Terran send me his Demeters, so i can pretty much by pass most Terran fleets as i also have the DE ship in the game as Ziks, infact send me some Pegs and widowmakers and my DE fleet will kill any class of ship easy.

To say it has less effect is almost the same as the Bullocks from the Tread starter.

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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 13:52   #125
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to all u guys talking about presendence!!!!!

In round 7 i was a Zik player, i remember in a CH Spinner got asked question:

Is ship donation allowed?

he answered: I can see nothing wrong in that, so yes it is.

This burnt into my mind, im at school now so dont have the loggs here, but if some1 care to check theyre CH loggs, or get the old one posted on the portal im sure this will make a presedence.

So until last night when i heard about Rabba i was sure it was allowed, and no im not a Zik this round

So twats, all u that been screaming and saying that this have been known rule, HOW THE FCK CAN U SAY THAT????? Spinner have said it was allowed, and Prince changed his mind this round in an CH!!!!!

I cant see in ANYWAY this can be just to close him for this. Hell if i had been a zik this round i would prolly had farmed Ships as i was sure it was allowed ( i read teh user agreement before every round).

And if u ask if im not to active in comunity so i dont get to read everything, well ive played since round1 and normally attend every CH, but this 1 was my GF birthday so didnt see dreadnaugth asking the question and didnt read the log on the portal (have now tough )
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 13:57   #126
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave
All the rules against so called 'Ship farming' are just stupid anyway.

They would have been worthwhile in round 2, when you could steal someones entire fleet without losing an entire ships, but as now you lose an equal ammount in resources, how is it farming. As the very definition most people give to farming is gaining something without any losses.

As you cannot do this anymore, the rules against ship farming are totaly flawed.

Besides, you find me one Zikonian player who doesn't ship farm. Rabba just had the bad luck of being #1, and as such more watched.

And honestly, does anyone in PA HQ wonder why more and more experianced players keep leaving the game?
Each captured ships geneerates 25% resources to the defending zikonian planet, so in a sense you can donate a person to #1 if he is zik. (by sending alot of attacking fleets that all get captured)
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 14:02   #127
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rumad
You really are clueless aren't you?

Stealing is the most profitable it has been in a long time. This gives zik an edge. To abuse it my ship farming goes against the rules of the game (as explained in the MotD) and the ethics.

If you seriously believe what you are saying why has it being virtually non existent except to those seeking a unfair competitive advantage?

Talking of precedent is in a legal sense, not a in game sense. I am in a very legal mood today so i will look at my keenan book now!
wtf ure on about now????

i NEVER said it wasnt profitable, i just stated the fact that Spinner have SAID it to be legal to donate shippies in previouse rounds. That make a presedence, it SURE takes more then a CH to remove that presedence.


/me wonders who is clueless

STFU Rumad unless u can come with sum constructive post, telling me im clueless bcz u:

a) didnt read my post
b) didnt have a good reply to what i wrote
c) beeing a general cnut

i assume a or b is the most likely ones )
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 14:05   #128
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Quote:
Originally posted by Pin

i NEVER said it wasnt profitable, i just stated the fact that Spinner have SAID it to be legal to donate shippies in previouse rounds. That make a presedence, it SURE takes more then a CH to remove that presedence.



In round 1 there was no rule against babysitting someone elses account. Does that mean its still allowed? No, rules change. So its either accept it or dont.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 14:06   #129
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rumad
....why has it being virtually non existent except to those seeking a unfair competitive advantage?
Don't really know what to say to this but... ROFLMAO..
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 14:08   #130
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Originally posted by Biggdogg
In round 1 there was no rule against babysitting someone elses account. Does that mean its still allowed? No, rules change. So its either accept it or dont.
well again i refer to teh manual and user agreement

It clearly states loging into any other then ure own account is NOT allowed.

BiggDog, plz come with a proper post, then comming with sum round 1 crap that is clearly stated in the rules is not allowed.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 14:12   #131
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Then I refer to what Spinner said, ship farming isnt legal. As a creator its his right to state what is and is not legal in the game.

So please come up with a proper post instead of the rehashed "it wasnt in teh agreement, and if its not in big ass lights 50 foot high we wont know !!!" argument.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 14:17   #132
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Well.. it will not be a problem in the future:

http://main.planetarion.com/rules.html

:-)
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 14:25   #133
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The position on ship farming is clearly stated. There is no point debating this. The more experienced players expect the rules to be harshly applied, whatever rules were there - because that's the best and only way to deal with cheats effectively.

You break the rules, you get caught, you get deleted.


The rules, for experienced players SHOULD BE AND INFACT ARE COMMON KNOWLEDGE. No doubt about it. Would people stop trying to worm people out of breaking the rules, because anyone experienced does know the rules, and should accept the consequence of breaking them, that being deletion - it's a risk you take when cheating. Planetarion is a war game with strict rules, it's nature should be harsh, because ultimately most planets aren't there to shake hands and be nice to each other.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 14:29   #134
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Whats most impresive is an 8 page thread on something which we all *KNOW* to be illegal, but some of us feel we can pretend its not and fool ourselfs into being upset when someone gets closed.

Why is it EVERY round someone in the top 10 decided to cheat to stay there. I can't remember a round where we haven't had to close someone. I think those cheaters should be ashamed of themselves. Mainly for giving the top 10 the image of being full of cheaters, and secondly for ruining the hard work of other high ranking galaxies.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 14:39   #135
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I just wonder in this thread what is the sense of farming? Some players give ships for free to others. He pays nothing for these ships, but he won't get an advantage in Ressource, but in tactics. This means, that the donating players should be deleted first, as they abuse the rules of playing as they don't try to win themselves, but being in the top "whatever".
In my opinion the problem is not in the rules or in the announced facts, but in the players who seek the holes in the rules to get an advantage on the fair players.
This guy Rabba, (I don't know him as I'm a far too bad player to fight in this league) found a hole in the rules. Instead of being honorful and announcing this hole in the forums and claiming for the closure, he used it to get an advantage.
After it was known to Prince, he acted for the fun of the community. And fun is the highest ware in this game, forcing a lot of players to stay up at night and trying to fool their neighboor. Every act to enhance fun is a good act! Even it costs one or two clever players their position. It is like in RL, where you angry about Spammers, but you can't get them with law. But here the Creators can change the law to get back fairness, even by teaching it "the hard way"

Summary: It wasn't fair for Rabba, but Rabba and his friends didn't play fair either
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 14:42   #136
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It isn't up to the creators to make sure that everyone knows the rules, it is up to those players to make certain that they know them.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 14:53   #137
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Rumad, it is easy:
You only like rules which protect you. All have to follow those rules. This can't be the wanted behaviour in a game!
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 15:03   #138
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if you play this game you have to play by the rules that the creators make

farming is illegal
that applys to both roid farming and ship farming you can argue semantics till your head explodes but ship farming is illegal
rabba broke the rules he got deleted end of story
and before anyone says he did not know that ships farming was illegal thats an invalide argument simply becaues if you had planned to play zik this round as a player the onus is on you to check out if ship farming is legal or not
by not doing so does not give you or anyone else the right to come on the boards and complain about someone being deleted
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 15:06   #139
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Totally Agree with you m8, the amount of agruements to have his planet re-opened is just stupid.

Now i've been here since r1 and in that time i've never once read the Rules or the User agreement, but i still know whats Right and Wrong. And some of these agruements to have his planet re-opened are using this as way to his account re-opened...plz

So by their statements i should by all means be able to Ship farm (if i was playing Zik this Round) Roid Farm, hell might as well have 10 accounts and have logins of 3 other gals as well, then if i get caught i can claim Ignorance in the fact that i've never read the rules.

So before someone else posts to have his account re-opened plz use a little common sense, He's been caught cheating, he's had his account closed... Tough luck.. he should of thought about that before he Farmed. as for the rest of the universe that feel the only way to win is to cheat, then all i can say is i hope you get caught. Cause I for one can not see a point in cheating.

ohh look at me i won r9...shame i had to cheat to do it, but i never got caught...so i'm the best..yeah me.

If thats you then i feel sorry for you that you feel you have to cheat to feel good about yourself. theres no True winning by cheating only a illusion of winning.

To Prince/Pa HQ - Fair play m8, when you going to get rid of the rest of the cheating gits.

Cupelix

edit.. In fact after further thought i dont feel sorry for u, i just think you are one sad individual who thinks about himself and no others.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 15:37   #140
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ok, rabba closed

more to come

every KID knows about that farming (whatever) is illegal...

cbk, are u afraid of beeing closed too ?



/me pokes the GREAT eye

let´s see how many top planets are "clean" hehe


but rabba is /was a shame for his ally (for doing that)
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 18:02   #141
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"7. We may terminate this Agreement (including your Account) immediately
and without notice if you breach this Agreement or repeatedly infringe
any third party intellectual property rights, or if we are unable to
verify or authenticate any information you provide to us, or upon
gameplay, chat or any player activity whatsoever which is, in our sole
discretion. If we terminate this Agreement under these circumstances,
you will lose access to your Account for the balance of any prepaid
period without any refund."

I can't see anything that has something to do with any kinds of farming there, so I'll have to agree with cbk and say that the ceators did not have the right to close rabbas account by law.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 18:46   #142
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I really should stop sleeping at night, because that allows eight hours of argumentation to go unanswered

First of all to Rumad:
What you are doing here is very effective - it is known in American Law as a Straw Man. Basically, you build up a "Straw Man" argument that looks like it has something to do with the case, when actually it doesn't. You then proceed to beat up the straw man, and everyone else assumes you are beating up the actual case.

You can argue contract law all you want - but this is not just a matter of contract law. Since PA Crew can delete for _any_ reason, there is no way anyone could take them to court, even if they were deleted for being Black and it was determined that PA Crew were card carrying KKK members.

The catch-all clause for deletion should only be invoked in extreme emergencies, because it undermines the notion of entering into the contract with PA crew. Rabbagast abided by every rule in the User Agreement and in the Manual, and every rule he was informed of. For him to get deleted for this is an extreme injustice.

To Biggdogg: You bring up an interesting point about precedent with regards to account sharing/babysitting. What you don't realize is that it actually supports Rabba's innocence. Those actions were legal in Round 1, but when they were declared illegal, it was reflected in the User Agreement. When Farming was declared illegal in round 7, it was reflected in the User Agreement. This establishes a precedent for PA crew to list changes to the legality of actions in the User Agreement, and not some question answer session.

To those stating that Rabba is exploiting a loophole: That is not the case at all. If Rabbagast had found a loophole, I am sure he would have clarified it with PA crew first. Why would you do something that you _know_ to be illegal and _know_ you will get caught about, on the hopes that you could argue your way out of it? The best case scenario is that your account is closed for a week and then reopened. Even if Rabba is given all of the ships back, he will not have profitted from this.

In conclusion: Our appeal is to both the Creators who closed Rabbagast (and will eventually make their decision), and to the community that is screaming for blood. Quite a few people have already stepped forward and said they did not know it was illegal. These people are even forum regulars that get exposed to information such as this. If it is possible for them to not know of the rules change, it also follows that non-forum users such as Rabbagast could be unaware of the change as well. PA crew did not take their usual approach to making the public aware of a rules change, and they should thus be lenient to anyone who was unaware of it.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 19:10   #143
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Quote:
Originally posted by meddy
but rabba is /was a shame for his ally (for doing that)

This is a joke right? Seeing as how you've been closed before aswell....
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 19:28   #144
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rumad
Actually no your wrong. This is a contract and UK contract law would be what governs this.

The way this matter would proceed in a court of law: It was well within Rabbagast's legal right to ship farm, due to clause 3. Because of clause 7, Creators can delete him for whatever reason they want. Therefore - deletion upheld.

This same situation would apply to: It was well withing player x's legal right to be Black due to common sense. Because of clause 7, Creators can delete player x for whatever reason they want. Therefore - deletion upheld.

Anyone that hides behind a strict legality argument is ignoring the fact that Rabbagast abided by every single term in his contract - yet can be deleted on the grounds of loud mouths on the boards and a catch all deletion clause.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 19:28   #145
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Rabbagast cheated, he knew it, and he got closed.
-end of story-
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 19:34   #146
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Quote:
Originally posted by N0VA
snip snip snip

Where it was stated does not matter. That it WAS stated by a creator is what matters. I havent played this game since round 6, and I knew full well that farming, be it ship or roid was illegal this round. So please dont try me to tell that an alliance HC, whos job it is to have their alliance fully prepared for a new round of PA had no idea. I dont think anyone with any sense about them would buy that crap for a second. This is just like someones boss, parent, or any "superior" figure telling you something, you do the opposite, then claim you didnt know because it wasnt right in front of you at all times. Its called taking responsibility.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 19:36   #147
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I'm sorry Rumad, _you_ are wrong. Contract law has absolutely no bearing on this discussion. We have conceded that PA Crew has the _legal_ right to delete anyone at any time for any reason that they chose, without any sort of review or appeal. That is not the issue. Likewise, the notion that we (or anyone else) would even attempt to bring litigation against PA Crew (for an insignificant sum) is preposterous and should be ignored as a non-issue.

The argument here is whether they _ought_ to delete Rabbagast for violating a rule that was not clearly articulated so that all players understood it. All players. Not the 11-or-so percent that regularly attend Creators Hour. Not those who lurk on the AD boards and cry for blood against whomever appears to be winning at any given point. Every player reads the EULA, most every player reads the Manual (particularly in a round where ship stats were changed). These are places where it would be most appropriate to make a change in the rules (and it has been done there in the past).

Arbitrary deletions undermine the EULA, and are simply bad business. PA Crew would do well to consider that when trying to re-build faith in a game that has suffered from bad business decision after bad decision.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 19:45   #148
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Originally posted by Rumad
Actually no your wrong. This is a contract and UK contract law would be what governs this.

Simply Creators are well within there right to do what they have and you dont have a legal argument. So it would be thrown out.

I doubt it would get as far as being heard.

To thr creators, I don't say very much in supprt, but ty for having the balls for this.
1st rumad from ure previouse response, im certain that no1 was deleted during round7 for ship donations!

And as long as Spinner have said it is legal, its quite obviouse this will make a presdence for the forth comming rounds until its clearly stated other wise. Today they have done so, but you cant give such a rule the power to account for earlier mistakes.

To this post, as u prolly are aware of, as long as jolt is selling theyre services abroad mainly and not UK mainly they are goverened by European Union laws and theyre rules.

If u work with what u are saying u are, i cannot in my bare mind understand why you can try to avoid the fact that Spinner made such a statement, and that the rules nor the manual says anything about farming of roids nor ship donations!

I'm quite sure you too would be rather pissed if you got deleted for something the board majority and one creator felt was an abuse, if the rules nor hte manual said anything about it what so ever. I know for sure i would.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 19:59   #149
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rumad
Actually no your wrong. This is a contract and UK contract law would be what governs this.

Simply Creators are well within there right to do what they have and you dont have a legal argument. So it would be thrown out.

I doubt it would get as far as being heard.

To thr creators, I don't say very much in supprt, but ty for having the balls for this.
It wouldn't get heard because courts have better things to do than discuss over a $10 planet, plus if anyone really wanted to bring a court action for it, they'd have to be really really really bored.

If they were, they'd discuss whether PA crew were reasonable in terminating their agreement, as the clause in itself is open to abuse. Clearly, it's a deletion for cheating, pretty reasonable. It was made known that this would be cheating. Open shut case really.
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Unread 4 Apr 2003, 20:28   #150
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Quote:
Originally posted by Biggdogg
Where it was stated does not matter. That it WAS stated by a creator is what matters. I havent played this game since round 6, and I knew full well that farming, be it ship or roid was illegal this round. So please dont try me to tell that an alliance HC, whos job it is to have their alliance fully prepared for a new round of PA had no idea. I dont think anyone with any sense about them would buy that crap for a second. This is just like someones boss, parent, or any "superior" figure telling you something, you do the opposite, then claim you didnt know because it wasnt right in front of you at all times. Its called taking responsibility.
Actually where it was stated does matter. The creators took a contractual obligation with each of the players to let them know of any rules changes before they become binding.

"3. We may amend this Agreement at any time in our sole discretion. Such
amendments shall be effective whenever we make the notification
available for your review."

The amendment in question is that Ship Farming, a once legal activity, is now illegal. Since this clause is in the User Agreement, it is in the contract between Rabbagast and PA crew. Therefore PA crew must make a reasonable effort to let Rabbagast know that Ship Farming is now illegal.

I am not suggesting that they have to call up each person and tell them that Ship Farming is now illegal, but they clearly did not place the relevant information in a location that a substantial number of players would be exposed to.

Since they do have options for placing information in such universally accessed locations, and have done so in the past, why should any player who was not in that Creator's Hour, or told directly about that Creator's Hour, have any reason to even inquire about the legality of ship farming?

Your analogy about an authority figure telling you one thing and you doing another falls apart for the above reasons. A more appropriate analogy would be that your Teacher always tells the class the day's homework assignment and writes it on the chalkboard. Four students in your class of Forty come in early to talk with the Teacher, and she tells them that there is an additional homework assignment for the day. She then puts a copy of their conversation into the filing cabinet in the room that any student can go into at any time, but only a couple ever do. She does not bother telling the whole class of this, or even writing it in the daily assignments section of the chalkboard. You then come into class the next day and get a Failing grade since you did not do that homework assignment.

Now, it is possible for you to have asked if there was an additional homework assignment - but you would have no reason to think there was one. Your fellow classmates could have told you about the assignment, but they would be in their right mind to assume the teacher would take care of it - and you should not be held accountable for the actions of your friends anyways. You could have checked the filing cabinet - but you have never had to before, and there is no reason to assume anything of importance is in the filing cabinet.

Similarly, Rabbagast is not accountable for information that a couple hundred people discuss in Creator's Hour. Rabbagast is not accountable for what people who were there neglected to tell him. Rabbagast is not accountable for what the Creators should have told him.
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