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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 05:46   #51
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Strategically speaking Israel cannot back down once engaged in such a battle. Any sign of weakness by Israel would make them too vulnerable to future attacks by other governments in the area. Since the USA is dedicated to ensuring the sovereignty of Israel, an all out attack on Israel could result in a major war or WWIII.

Israel already looks bad for the course of action they are taking but as long as Lebanon keeps fighting Israel will keep attacking.

As some point Lebanon will need to release the prisoners or admit that they are dead. Once this happens Israel may cool off from hostilities.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 08:51   #52
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

All the news sources are saying that Israel wont stop until Hezbollah is unarmed. One 'expert' said that Israel isn't going to be able to stop the rockets that are being fired on it, and doesn't think there is a military solution. At some point the diplomats will have to get involved. I also read another thing on the new york times about how Olmert (or whatever the current Israeli prime minister's name is) was losing support and that this war has improved his standing in his government.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 10:09   #53
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

I think this article on the subject would be interesting for a few of you.

Quote:
It's high time western governments grasped the fundamental truth that Israel is pursuing an agenda that conflicts directly with their own. In the context of the fight against terrorism and the need to promote international cooperation, the west's interest must be to remove the Palestinian question as a source of grievance among mainstream Muslims in a way that guarantees justice for the Palestinians and security for Israel. A settlement of this kind is perfectly feasible and has been outlined in countless documents and initiatives over the years, most recently in the Geneva accords. But the main reason it has proved illusive is that Israel is not, and never has been, prepared to make the territorial compromises required. It still believes that it is entitled to the victor's spoils by annexing large tracts of Palestinian land.
I'm still absolutely amazed that anyone thinks that Israel have any regard for Lebanese and Palastinian innocent lives.
The deliberate targetting of infastructure, and seemingly civilians themselves, goes no way to stopping Israel themselves getting attacked.
It's collective punishment and it plays directly into the terrorists hands.
Israel must know this, they aren't stupid. So why are they doing it? Are they misguided? or do they have a different agenda to the one they wheel out to the media...
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 10:46   #54
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

my gf just "escaped death"
she ran into the mountains with thousands of people

can't get to beirut cause the roads are bombed and israel doesn't stop bombing.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 11:07   #55
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

I think fundamentally you have to look at the reasons most Palestinians have for distrusting Israel. Prior to the first intifada the Palestinians in the west bank and the gaza strip lived under a foreign occupation. Under this foreign rule they were deprived of their land and walled off, in every sense of the word, settlements were constructed there. At this time they were taxed by the Israeli government, taxes which are widely suspected to have been used to aid in the construction of these settlements due to the non-transparency and total lack of detail as to what these taxes were used for. This it at a time when Israel is occupying southern Lebanon. This is at a time of widespread Arab acceptance and toleration of Israel, and withdrawal of claims on the West Bank and the gaza strip. This is prior to the first intifada. The Israeli government has too much power. As with most governments that have had too much power this is proving to be a spectacularly bad thing.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 12:30   #56
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
Not that its any surprise but Israeli ground forces have now entered Lebanon.
Where did you hear/read this? Nothing on the bbc site yet.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 13:31   #57
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

can u blame the israelis for being paranoid with their soldiers being kidnapped left right and centre. Hezbolah opened this war on 2 fronts and they stuck their oar into a conflict that was none of their damn business, now they have to face the consequences.

Israel is defending itself, and i dont blame them for this.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 13:37   #58
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

who is "they"?

how does "paranoia" justify mass murder?
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 13:40   #59
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mek
can u blame the israelis for being paranoid with their soldiers being kidnapped left right and centre. Hezbolah opened this war on 2 fronts and they stuck their oar into a conflict that was none of their damn business, now they have to face the consequences.

Israel is defending itself, and i dont blame them for this.
From the article earlier:

Quote:
No one quibbles with Israel's right to defend itself, but doesn't it understand how irresponsible and immoral it is to deliberately escalate the conflict in this way?
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 13:46   #60
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

How many Israellis are held hostage?

What about the palestinian political prisoners (or arab in general) and the massive refugee population, who had their homes destroyed and their land robbed from them? They are hostages as well, just on a larger scale.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 14:08   #61
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

I see very little objectivity from many posters in this thread. It should be recognised that human civilisations have always, through the thin facade of nationhood and patriotism, fought to extend their control and dominion. To eke out a better life for "their own" regardless of the cost imposed on others. There are a great many examples of this throughout history and, indeed, a very comparable one in my own country.

In the 1640's King James I of England ordered the plantation of Ulster, a forced redistribution of lands in the area that would in time become Northern Ireland. Direct English control of the whole of the Island of Ireland was ended in the 1920's with the institution of Home Rule (devolution) in the South and followed during WWII by total independance of this region. Britain retained control of the North though the lands were claimed by Ireland in it's 1937 constitution.

All was relatively peaceful until the 70's when a series of civil rights violations, capped by the shooting dead of 14 people (6 of whom were children) by a British Parachute regiment. Many more were injured. The response amongst Catholics was almost immediate and an up to then unpopular Provisional IRA suddenly found itself deluged with volunteers. Thus began 'The Troubles' - an extended period of ever increasing terrorism and civil rights violations. Catholics were interned, Protestants were bombed. For each aggressive move one side made the other found a way to reciprocate.

In the end, the solution* came about through a process of realistic negotiations. Irish people voted overwhelmingly (94%) to accept the permanent partition of our Island and our constitution was so amended. Let us be frank, anyone who looks at a map can see that the border at the top of the Teddy Bear is unnatural. It is unquestionable that, historically, we have far more right to it than the British and that Unionist faction are, infact, occupiers of land historically not theirs. However, when we set history aside and focus solely on what is pragmatic and reasonable currently it becomes clear that it is better to lose a lot of what was once yours and live in peace than to fight and bleed, kill and die
for some romantic notion of nationhood.

I submit that the same is true for the Palestinians today. The right and wrong of who owns what is irrelevant. Palestine must accept less because they are weaker and this is a sad thought. It should not be so, everything should be fair, but we all know it isn't. Yet so many cling to this dream of what once was and the river of blood flows ever onwards.

Surely it is time for these people to set aside the past and focus solely on their future. Dreams are not worth dying for.



*This may be premature but I honestly don't think a return to violence is an option now.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 14:09   #62
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
(everyone seems to have forgotten that recently Israel abducted various members of the Palestinian Cabinet)
Not to mention the fact that the Palestinian Foreign ministry in the gaza strip is currently a pile of smoking rubble.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 14:15   #63
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
In the end, the solution* came about through a process of realistic negotiations. Irish people voted overwhelmingly (94%) to accept the permanent partition of our Island and our constitution was so amended. Let us be frank, anyone who looks at a map can see that the border at the top of the Teddy Bear is unnatural. It is unquestionable that, historically, we have far more right to it than the British and that Unionist faction are, infact, occupiers of land historically not theirs. However, when we set history aside and focus solely on what is pragmatic and reasonable currently it becomes clear that it is better to lose a lot of what was once yours and live in peace than to fight and bleed, kill and die
for some romantic notion of nationhood.

I submit that the same is true for the Palestinians today. The right and wrong of who owns what is irrelevant. Palestine must accept less because they are weaker and this is a sad thought. It should not be so, everything should be fair, but we all know it isn't. Yet so many cling to this dream of what once was but will never be again and the river of blood flows ever onwards.
I think you missed my post. When the situation was relatively peaceful Israel got more aggressive in terms of increasing settlements and using the palestinians in the west bank and gaza to pay for them. To be honest your analogy is slightly off base. A better analogy would be if during the 1920s settlers had moved out of northern ireland, set up walled compounds on the most arable land in the free state, cut off our supplies of water for their own irrigation purposes (this one doesn't translate well as water is correspondingly more precious in the middle east due to the heat), brought in the british army with them, set up checkpoints every thirty odd miles and gone marauding around destroying Irish towns and bulldozing the homes of civilians to the ground.

A lot of the problems are physical, and not just based on historical injustice and religious differences.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 14:22   #64
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBeGood
I think you missed my post. When the situation was relatively peaceful Israel got more aggressive in terms of increasing settlements and using the palestinians in the west bank and gaza to pay for them. To be honest your analogy is slightly off base. A better analogy would be if during the 1920s settlers had moved out of northern ireland, set up walled compounds on the most arable land in the free state, cut off our supplies of water for their own irrigation purposes, brought in the british army with them, set up checkpoints every thirty odd miles and gone marauding around destroying Irish towns and bulldozing the homes of civilians to the ground.
Current Israeli policy, as dictated by voting in the last election, dictates an end to many of these settlements and proposes finalised borders for a Jewish Israel and an independent Palestinian state. I agree that this is far from ideal for the Palestinians and many may have to leave their homes or live within the borders of a hostile nation. However, it would give them a country of their own, free from any Israeli occupation. It is not what they once had but surely it is better than this. They cannot beat the Israelis through force of arms, it just won't happen. The only realistic option then is to take what they are given, no matter how galling and to negotiate for more subsequently.

This is identical to the situation from which Ireland emerged from the Home Rule of the 20's and 30's to being a nation in her own right.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 14:25   #65
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by T&F
Palestine IS the one accepting less. It is Israel who are refusing to negotiate, not just with Hamas but with the preceeding administration. Please pay attention.
No, they do not accept it. Some still fight for more. Acceptance means an end to Hamas military resistance and the recognition of an Israeli state. This has never happened.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 14:26   #66
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
No, they do not accept it. Some still fight for more. Acceptance means an end to Hamas military resistance and the recognition of an Israeli state. This has never happened.
It wasn't allowed to happen.

Just when it was about to, Israel started blowing up Hamas again.

Quote:
it might become apparent that far from wanting a partner with which to negotiate, the Israeli government is acting with the specific intention of forestalling that possibility. There is nothing particularly new in this. The extremists on both sides have always formed a kind of tacit alliance, with the supporters of "greater Israel" and "no Israel" understanding their joint interest in preventing any moves towards a compromise peace. That is the main reason why Israel encouraged the growth of Hamas as it emerged in the 1980s. Unwilling to negotiate with the secular nationalists of Fatah, even as they were moving towards support for a two-state solution, the Israeli authorities thought it would be a clever idea to promote their Islamist rivals.

In the case of the current crisis, it is no accident that it occurred at precisely the moment when the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, was gaining the upper hand in the latest round of that struggle. By using the threat of a referendum to force Hamas to accept the existence of Israel as the basis for a final settlement, Abbas had created the most promising opening for peace in six years. Faced with internal division and the loss of political initiative, Hamas militants understood that the only way to prevent it would be to trigger another cycle of violence. In turn, the Israel government, whose interests were also threatened by the Abbas initiative, recognised that it had an equally good reason to oblige. The effect of Hizbullah's intervention and Israel's over-reaction has been to put peace even further down the agenda.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 14:29   #67
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

There has never been any recognition by Hamas of Israel's right to exist.

edit: I'm also not sure what it is you are quoting in your (unmarked) edit, but it seems to me to be little more than subjective opinion. It is written in a conspiracist tone and utterly devoid of objective facts. How does this person know what 'Hamas understood' or what the supporters of 'greater Israel' or 'no Israel' understand? Talk of 'secret Israeli interests' in a skewed article riddled with bias are also singularily unimpressive.

Last edited by Achilles; 17 Jul 2006 at 14:37.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 14:39   #68
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

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Originally Posted by Achilles
There has never been any recognition by Hamas of Israel's right to exist.

edit: I'm also not sure what it is you are quoting in your (unmarked) edit, but it seems to me to be little more than subjective opinion. It is written in a conspiracist tone and utterly devoid of objective facts. How does this person know what 'Hamas understood' or what the supporters of 'greater Israel' or 'no Israel' understand? Talk of 'secret Israeli interests' in a skewed article riddled with bias are also singularily unimpressive.
I'm quoting from the link I made earlier.
And it was unmarked because I made it only a few seconds after pressing enter originally.
It's opinion but it was written better than I could write it myself.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 14:44   #69
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

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Originally Posted by Achilles
Current Israeli policy, as dictated by voting in the last election, dictates an end to many of these settlements and proposes finalised borders for a Jewish Israel and an independent Palestinian state.
Yes, I'm sure we all saw the last proposed two-state solution. You can dress up a shithole as a state but at the end of the day people are going to have to live there.
Quote:
I agree that this is far from ideal for the Palestinians and many may have to leave their homes or live within the borders of a hostile nation. However, it would give them a country of their own, free from any Israeli occupation. It is not what they once had but surely it is better than this. They cannot beat the Israelis through force of arms, it just won't happen. The only realistic option then is to take what they are given, no matter how galling and to negotiate for more subsequently.
Frankly I'm not that bothered by the thought of a giant state over Israel and Palestine called either of the above. However if the water sources, the most arable land, an excessive amount of the land and the infrastructure is controlled by the "Israelis" it's not going to work. In my opinion the nation-state paradigm is vastly outdated, a fact ably demonstrated by the situation in Palestine at the minute.
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This is identical to the situation from which Ireland emerged from the Home Rule of the 20's and 30's to being a nation in her own right.
Firstly to call it Home Rule is inaccurate. Ireland was effectively a nationstate since the Anglo-Irish treaty. And to continue the analogy what of the catholics left in the north (or rather the palestinians who are going to end up in israeli zones of control). To hell or to connaught with them I suppose?
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 14:53   #70
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by T&F
Actually there have been MORE Israeli settlers in the last few months, not less. Israel isn't negotiating the borders it is just cherry picking where they want to go and similtaneously turning Gaza into the largest prison camp in the world. They would never be free from Israeli occupation under this arrangement.

I think your final point is hitting the nailon the head. You aren't saying that Israel has any rights, you are saying that they are stronger and thus the weaker Palestinains should shut up and take it. Well that's not actually a solution now is it. That's running away from the problem.
I wasn't aware of any new settlements created in the past few months. Could you link to me to your source for this information?

Also, there is a HUGE difference between declaring a temporary ceasefire and recognising that Israel is entitled to be a country. The IRA declared many ceasefires, there were many false starts and failed attempts to find a more permanent peace. Were Hamas to recognise the right of Israel to statehood it would be a gesture akin to that of the IRA disarmament which eventually moved the process forward here.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 15:20   #71
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBG
Frankly I'm not that bothered by the thought of a giant state over Israel and Palestine called either of the above. However if the water sources, the most arable land, an excessive amount of the land and the infrastructure is controlled by the "Israelis" it's not going to work. In my opinion the nation-state paradigm is vastly outdated, a fact ably demonstrated by the situation in Palestine at the minute.
I agree completely, as stated in my OP on this page, that the nation state paradigm is wholly outdated. It's absolutely useless and serves only to further alienation and hatred as is, as you correctly stated, evidenced by events in the middle-east at the moment. Unfortunately I do not have another workable, implementable model handy. Do you?

My whole point is that we live in a world of many flaws and great injustice. Some wish to fight this injustice, irrespective on the cost imposed on them or anyone else. I do not believe this is the way to bring about the social change you talk about. For change such as this to occur there must be peace. For any peace to last there must be sacrifice. The Palestinians will ultimately have to settle for less as they cannot take more. This is grossly unfair, on this we all agree but life is most often unfair. Life may well be tough for the Palestinians should they accede to Israeli demands but it will still be an order of magnitude better than it is now and it will improve over time.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 15:24   #72
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I agree completely, as stated in my OP on this page, that the nation state paradigm is wholly outdated. It's absolutely useless and serves only to further alienation and hatred as is, as you correctly stated, evidenced by events in the middle-east at the moment. Unfortunately I do not have another workable, implementable model handy. Do you?

My whole point is that we live in a world of many flaws and great injustice. Some wish to fight this injustice, irrespective on the cost imposed on them or anyone else. I do not believe this is the way to bring about the social change you talk about. For change such as this to occur there must be peace. For any peace to last there must be sacrifice. The Palestinians will ultimately have to settle for less as they cannot take more. This is grossly unfair, on this we all agree but life is most often unfair. Life may well be tough for the Palestinians should they accede to Israeli demands but it will still be an order of magnitude better than it is now and it will improve over time.
stop labouring under the notion either that israel will ever accept a settlement that makes things better for the palestinians, or that the current palestinian state represents "tolerable living conditions".
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 15:27   #73
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBG
Firstly to call it Home Rule is inaccurate. Ireland was effectively a nationstate since the Anglo-Irish treaty. And to continue the analogy what of the catholics left in the north (or rather the palestinians who are going to end up in israeli zones of control). To hell or to connaught with them I suppose?
The combined people of Northern Ireland voted 71% in favour of the Good Friday Agreement. According to opinion poles the vast majority of no voters were Unionists. It is obvious from your post that you think these people have been left down, that they have somehow been left behind and that may well be so. But they decided it was better than living in fear under the shadow of the gun. I agree with them and I think the Palestinians can reach a similar situation if the extremist elements give up a paramilitary crusade they have no hope of winning.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 15:33   #74
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
stop labouring under the notion either that israel will ever accept a settlement that makes things better for the palestinians, or that the current palestinian state represents "tolerable living conditions".
I never said that current conditions in Palestine are "tolerable" although they clearly are since the people living there are tolerating them on a daily basis.

Assuming you meant 'acceptable' or 'decent' rather than 'tolerable' let me counter by saying that I argued that I believe they will improve over time as peace prevails. I am not stating this is an ideal solution and I am more than happen to debate yours if you deign to supply one. However, if all you can come up are badly worded one liners with poor capitalisation then I'm sure you will forgive me for disregarding you.

edit: Conditions will certainly never improve under the current climate. In fact the opposite is more likely true.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 15:37   #75
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
I agree completely, as stated in my OP on this page, that the nation state paradigm is wholly outdated. It's absolutely useless and serves only to further alienation and hatred as is, as you correctly stated, evidenced by events in the middle-east at the moment. Unfortunately I do not have another workable, implementable model handy. Do you?
I read a good book on this called, amusingly enough, The Shield of Achilles. While I don't agree with some of of what it contains it's a very good analysis of the development of states and brings a number of interesting viewpoints on the future of states at large.

Quote:
My whole point is that we live in a world of many flaws and great injustice. Some wish to fight this injustice, irrespective on the cost imposed on them or anyone else. I do not believe this is the way to bring about the social change you talk about.
Large-scale peaceful social change requires an open-minded populace and a willing government. Whatever about the first Israel has never had the second even in its most moderate days.

Quote:
For change such as this to occur there must be peace. For any peace to last there must be sacrifice. The Palestinians will ultimately have to settle for less as they cannot take more. This is grossly unfair, on this we all agree but life is most often unfair.
You're ignoring the point that when you force people to live in a shithole they will lash out. It's inevitable. They don't really have anything to lose. Even Israel's insane collective punishment policies aren't stopping them. You can't defeat people who are actually fighting for their homes. In the end you give them their old homes, give them satisfactory new ones or exterminate them. The first isn't viable for a number of reasons I really hope I won't have to go into in this thread again. The third isn't viable because it's inhuman. I don't really see any other options.
Quote:
Life may well be tough for the Palestinians should they accede to Israeli demands but it will still be an order of magnitude better than it is now and it will improve over time.
You don't seem to be grasping the fundamental point that you're suggesting the Palestinians live in atrocious conditions while on top of the hill the Israeli settlers water their gardens. It's apartheid.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 15:42   #76
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
The combined people of Northern Ireland voted 71% in favour of the Good Friday Agreement. According to opinion poles the vast majority of no voters were Unionists. It is obvious from your post that you think these people have been left down, that they have somehow been left behind and that may well be so. But they decided it was better than living in fear under the shadow of the gun. I agree with them and I think the Palestinians can reach a similar situation if the extremist elements give up a paramilitary crusade they have no hope of winning.
Firstly, and rather incidentally, recent opinion polls, on all sides, indicate a drop in the belief in the feasibility of the Good Friday Agreement to about 30%. I wasn't really talking about this though. I was talking about the catholics on the northern side of the border and their lives from 1921 up until the civil rights marches you mentioned.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 16:44   #77
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

I'm not sure there is much more debate in me as regards this topic. Nothing I have read has swayed me towards the conclusion that the Palestinians will gain anything from armed resistance. I simply do not believe that right and wrong factor into what must be a pragmatic decision based on the reality of today.

The fact is that Israel's Kadima party is simply going to push ahead with it's plans to finalise the border on it's own and Palestine is going to miss out on it's chance to gain both concessions and international support if they maintain the status quo.

This map outlines Israels current plans in this regard but Olmert indicated at the time that he was prepared to grant further concessions. This was forced on him by the US as a condition of their support. If Palestine (and Hamas) don't use this chance they are simply allowing Israel to have it's own way and to dictate it's own terms. America will not force Israel to negotiate 'under terrorist threat' but large concessions, especially as regards those West Bank settlements mentioned earlied by T&F, can still be won if Hamas plays clever politics instead of waging pointless war.

I am aware this is not ideal and in a just and equitable world there would be a better solution. But unless someone proposes one, rather than simply say that none is possible, I do not see how I can be swayed. Violence should always be the last resort. If the Palestinians gained nothing from dialogue over these borders then killing more Israelis would still remain an option for them.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 16:59   #78
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Of course it is; I in no way support any of Israel's actions towards the Palestinian people and I never have. But nor do I believe that Palestinian violence towards Israel is acceptable. I believe a middle ground that will ease the current suffering in everyday Palestinian life as regards human and infrastructure destruction should be followed by Hamas.

If they refuse to be participatory in the current tit for tat humanitarian debacle international pressure will surely force the Israeli's to do likewise. There is no reason why Hamas should have to make this gesture first other than the fact that Israel will not. Again, it's not fair, but it is the objective truth and should be recognised as such.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 18:46   #79
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

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Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
This has all been discussed above, at length, and with better points that yours attempting to defend Israel's rights to attack innocent civilians. Sigh.
Certainly it is much more chic to defend Hizbollah's and Hamas' right to attack innocent civilians. Sigh.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 19:57   #80
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
Certainly it is much more chic to defend Hizbollah's and Hamas' right to attack innocent civilians. Sigh.
Nobody really has done that in this thread (presuming zhukov hasn't posted yet). What people have done is explain the reasons why both sides attack innocent civilians. You can't expect people to live in inhuman conditions and not lash out. You can't ask them to compromise. They don't have anything left to give away. The only thing they can do is stop the violence. This has been done. And new settlements are built.

The point as well is that people have gained from violent resistance. The American Revolution is a prime example. I guess it's unfortunate that Palestine lacked a gandhi or a martin luther king who could act as an inspirational figure and provide a counter-balance to the violent militancy insisted upon by many as their only route. It's always terrible that people die. However that is war. War is sheer bloody murder, murder conducted at a distance by politicians who moralise publically and plan more murder privately.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
America will not force Israel to negotiate 'under terrorist threat' but large concessions, especially as regards those West Bank settlements mentioned earlied by T&F, can still be won if Hamas plays clever politics instead of waging pointless war.
I don't think you understand. It's not like the Ireland-Britain situation where the Irish had seats in Westminster and could push their agenda. The Palestinians are going to sit down on the opposite side of the table from the Israelis and they're going to ask for more land and the Israelis are going to say no.

The Israeli government wants a clearly defined state because they want to build a wall around their country and keep the sand ******s out. It has nothing to do with compromise. They gave up the gaza strip because there are 1.4 million Palestinians living in a 360 kilometre square zone. You can't deal with that in any real sense. It's the population density of Berlin in an area so staggeringly unequipped to deal with it the mind boggles. You just have to look at the facts of the situation, the infant morality rate there is three times that of Israel for example.

Half of the population of palestine is aged 16 or less. They've known nothing but war, oppression, fear and hatred from a people who live longer than them, in better conditions, protected by armed troops often quite literally a stone's throw away (or slightly more these days) on land their grandparents lived on once. In exchange for this imbalance these people elect a government which employs an army made up of all its citizens which frequently conducts operations which lead to the deaths of innocent Palestinians, men, women and children in pursuit of men who claim to be fighting to correct this imbalance. Hamas and Hizbollah may back down, along with all the other terrorists, or freedom fighters depending on your perspective. Equally Israel might back down. Both seem equally unlikely to me. If neither happens Israel is going to implode under the pressure of a population half their size, growing twice as fast in an area the seventh the size of their own country. A country where once the Palestinians lived.
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 23:37   #81
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

So it comes down to dying on your feet instead of living on your knees? Although at the rate things are going people will soon be dying in all kinds of messy positions.

There is no solution that will help everyone but there are solutions that will help some. What I suggested, while admittedly horribly flawed, would be a start.

I'll compare it with your proposed solution.

Oh wait......
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Unread 17 Jul 2006, 23:44   #82
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Can't we just sit back with some beers and watch the highlights on BBC?

I mean it's going to be better than anything else on tv.
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Unread 18 Jul 2006, 00:10   #83
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

I thought that is what the majority of posters were already proposing? They wrapped it in vapid moral outrage and decorated it with a pretty ribbon of hopeless indignation first, but in essence your post does seem to encompass the consensus pretty neatly.
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Unread 18 Jul 2006, 00:11   #84
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
So it comes down to dying on your feet instead of living on your knees? Although at the rate things are going people will soon be dying in all kinds of messy positions.

There is no solution that will help everyone but there are solutions that will help some. What I suggested, while admittedly horribly flawed, would be a start.

I'll compare it with your proposed solution.

Oh wait......
your solution is "watch the ******s live like vermin and die, quickly, also like vermin". It's not acceptable to Hamas, it's not acceptable to the Palestinians, and it shouldn't be acceptable to you.
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Unread 18 Jul 2006, 00:23   #85
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

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Originally Posted by Phang
your solution is "watch the ******s live like vermin and die, quickly, also like vermin". It's not acceptable to Hamas, it's not acceptable to the Palestinians, and it shouldn't be acceptable to you.
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Unread 18 Jul 2006, 02:13   #86
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Life expectancy in Israel: 77 years (men), 82 years (women)
Life expectancy in the Palestinian Territories: 71 years (men), 74 years (women)

GNP per capita in Israel: $18,620
GNP per capita in Palestine: $1,120

Population density per square mile in Israel: 786.2
Population density per square mile in Palestine: 1553.5


The Palestinians are living on nothing. They're living for less time and in less space than the Israelis. Israel is not only not helping, it is making this worse, and there is no way you can seriously suggest Israel would encourage the development of an independent Palestinian state. Jonny's put this far better than I'm likely to on the last page, but the current situation is not htat the Palestinians are dying on their feet or living on their knees - they're dying on their knees. For people in the Gaza strip and to a lesser extent the west bank, a suicide bomb is the only way they can fight, it get's them into heaven, and it's pretty much all they can do with their lives. Israel have caused this problem and it needs to be Israel who fix it, and Israel need to fix it.
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Unread 18 Jul 2006, 02:37   #87
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

I think i support israel on this one. They weren't exactly doing anything to lebanon were they?
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Unread 18 Jul 2006, 03:26   #88
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

I by no means wish to diminish the daily hardships suffered by the Palestinians but those life expectancy figures are on a par with developing countries across the globe. For example:

Life expectancy in Poland: Male 70.95 years Female 79.23 years
Life expectancy in China: Male 70.89 years Female: 74.46 years
Life expectancy in Venezuela: Male 71.49 years Female: 77.81 years


If you wish to compare this to a nation of true, grinding poverty and utter deprivation then:

Life expectancy in Somalia: Male 46.71 years Female 50.28 years

The reality is that life in Palestine is not so harsh as to be detrimental to the health of it's populace. They may lack the western medical facilities and expertise available in Israel but I don't think that's very surprising. In fact, when compared with their Arab friends they come out ahead:

Life expectancy in Iran: Male 68.86 years Female 71.74 years
Life expectancy in Syria: Male 69.01 years Female 71.7 years


I'm pretty sure that what the people of Palestine actually need is an end to fighting and a resumption of the supplies of the western aid that was disrupted because no civilised nation will deal with Hamas. But I'm sorry, I'm going off topic here, this thread clearly only exists to demonise Israel irrespective of the facts and any inconvenient political or sociological realities.
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Unread 18 Jul 2006, 05:15   #89
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

This is what isreal gets for allying itself with the United States and other powerful countries.

This is what palestians get for historically allying themselves with terrorists such has hezbolla and terrorist states such as Syria and Iran, which btw, are economically poor countries.

That doesnt mean that its right, fair, or just, it JUST means that it is actaully the case. The Countries who have done what the United States told them to do generally did better than countries that refuse. (with Latin American countries being huge exceptions IMF/monetary crisis)
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Are you sh*tting me? You mean my negrep is SOO LOW my opinion is worthless?
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Unread 18 Jul 2006, 06:56   #90
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

So, are you going to respond to what I said or just negrep me for your orgasmic pleasure?
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Unread 18 Jul 2006, 10:43   #91
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
The reality is that life in Palestine is not so harsh as to be detrimental to the health of it's populace. They may lack the western medical facilities and expertise available in Israel but I don't think that's very surprising. In fact, when compared with their Arab friends they come out ahead:
I wasn't saying they were dreadfully off compared to Somalia. That said there is no question that if the lived in the western world by any definition the vast majority of the population would fall below the poverty line. All my comparisons were towards Israel. That's what they see and it's that dichotomy that will eventually drive even more to violence. That's what I meant when I said it's apartheid. In south africa the non-white population was mostly better off than the population of other countries. But it's the separation, the alienation and the constant reminder of how little you have that drives you to violence against those who do. I'm not saying it's right that it happens, I'm saying it will.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
So it comes down to dying on your feet instead of living on your knees? Although at the rate things are going people will soon be dying in all kinds of messy positions.

There is no solution that will help everyone but there are solutions that will help some. What I suggested, while admittedly horribly flawed, would be a start.

I'll compare it with your proposed solution.

Oh wait......
My proposal is this. The UN, backed by the armies of NATO, demands all sides to cease fire and an immediate pull back of Israeli forces from the Gaza strip, an end to naval blockades of Lebanon and the Gaza strip, an end to any new settlers moving into the West Bank and pullback of all Israeli air forces from the aerospace above Lebanon and the gaza strip. In the meantime any and all offensive operations, airstrikes, rocket launches, suicide bombings from all sides are to cease within a period of six hours. The withdrawal has a fixed time period of one week. If either side does not adhere to this schedule they get any forces contravening it systematically demolished.

Then you begin talks. The entire region is isolated and no non-humanitarian supplies will be allowed into either area. All Israeli settlements in the west bank will either have to leave and move back into Israel proper or pay a substantial either fixed payment, or a long-term inflation-dependent rate to keep their homes. This amount can be determined as to how much it costs for Palestine to resettle/rehouse the people who could be living on this land somewhere else (note these are not reparations). This amount can be discussed and debated by both sides but will be finally decided upon by an impartial team of Swiss, Swedish etc observers. The USA would be encouraged to alter part of the enormous amount of military aid they send to israel into the form of humanitarian and construction aid to help in the resettlement of settlers who move back into Israel in Israel itself.

The control of water sources in the west bank is made the province of the new Palestinian state. If they are found to be, by teams of international observers who will remain in place for, in all likelihood, decades afterwards, discriminating against Israeli settlers all foreign aid and all taxes paid by settlers will be halted and assets abroad frozen until the same observers are satisified this is not taking place. A single system would be set up to improve the infrastructure, roads, sewerage, power plants, hospitals of Palestine itself. A bill of rights is set up in Palestine to defend basic human rights such as freedom of expression and religion. If Hamas, and all political parties, do not clearly and unequivocally state that they are abandoning violence as a means of political change they will be barred from running in subsequent elections. If Palestine ignores this all aid will cease. If Israel elects a party which advocates expansion into these areas they will be embargoed. If suicide bombers emerge from Palestine the Palestinian government will be forced to pay a sum, dependent on the damage, to the government of Israel, which the government of Israel will have to prove is being used in reconstruction of affected areas and aid to the victims' families. UN-funded courts of arbitration will be set up to deal with the no doubt countless problems which will emerge.

This will cost money. But my friends, you fix the world one problem at a time.
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Unread 18 Jul 2006, 12:08   #92
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

I'm not really sure what to make of this transcript
It all seems a bit... wierd...
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Unread 18 Jul 2006, 14:50   #93
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

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Originally Posted by Ste

It sounds like two people trying to sort out office politics

'kofis a gezzer innit'
'yeah assads got the hump over it all'

someone should tell mr bush that its rude to eat and speak at the same time
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Unread 18 Jul 2006, 17:21   #94
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Exclamation Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nantoz
I remind you that prior to the recent Israeli campaign in Gaza, Hamas had declared a more than year-long unilateral cease-fire. They upheld this stance untill the Gaza Beach Bombings that kiled seven civilian Palestinians and left several more severely wounded.
On April 17, 2006 nine people were killed and at least 40 wounded in a suicide bombing near the old central bus station in Tel Aviv. The blast ripped through Falafel Rosh Ha'ir (the same restaurant that was hit by an attack on January 19). The Islamic Jihad and Fatah’s Al Aksa Martyrs Brigades both claimed responsibility for the attack. The Hamas led PA government defended the suicide bombing, calling it an act of "self-defense." Hamas official spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri called the attack "a natural result of the continued Israeli crimes against our people." On March 30, 2006 four people were killed in a suicide bombing outside Kedumim in the northern West Bank. The Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigades took responsibility for that attack. During the Hamas "cease-fire," many hundreds of Kassam rockets were launched at Israeli towns.

Hamas has done nothing to stop these attacks since they've been in power and in fact they defend them. What kind of cease-fire is this?

This is has been the pattern in the past. One Palestinian faction declares a truce or cease-fire with Israel while other factions continue their attacks. Eventually, Israel retaliates and Palestinians claim Israel has 'violated' the truce. Rinse, repeat.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toccata & Fugue
This article siggests that the Israeli's real aim to install a more compliant lebanese government and that they had just been waiting for an excuse to deploy forces that had been in place for months.
Dude, Israel has a small standing army. They don't have large invasion forces to put in place months in advance. They've only just started mobilizing their reserve forces now (three battalions activated yesterday; more, I'm sure, to follow).
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonnyBGood
My proposal is this. The UN, backed by the armies of NATO, demands all sides to cease fire and an immediate pull back of Israeli forces from the Gaza strip, an end to naval blockades of Lebanon and the Gaza strip, an end to any new settlers moving into the West Bank and pullback of all Israeli air forces from the aerospace above Lebanon and the gaza strip. In the meantime any and all offensive operations, airstrikes, rocket launches, suicide bombings from all sides are to cease within a period of six hours.
I'm curious how you're going to achieve this. Especially stopping the rocket attacks and suicide bombings. The Israelis, with equipment as good as NATOs and twice the motivation, haven't been able to do it. What carrots and sticks do you think will be effective, and why? Peacekeeping forces also risk becoming targets themselves (see U.S. Marines, Beirut) which is why I think few, if any, countries will be stepping up to offer their troops for such a mission.

Also, the UN has been in the middle east before. They maintained a buffer zone between Israeli and Egyptian forces from 1956 to 1967 and from 1973 to 1979. They were not able to stop terrorist attacks (or for that matter, the Six Days War). Hell, there are UN peacekeepers along the Lebanese/Israeli border right now. They didn't stop Hezbollah from attacking across the border and capturing two Israeli soldiers. All they can/will do is watch Hezbollah missiles and Israeli jets fly by overhead and wave at the troops going by.




N.B. A collection of links to Israeli, Palestinian and Lebanese bloggers at The Truth Laid Bear.
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Unread 18 Jul 2006, 18:36   #95
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

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Originally Posted by Ste
It was on the front cover of The Independant today, about how Blair wanted to go to the middle east and be the great peace maker he's so desperate for, but bush went 'no condi's going'.
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Unread 18 Jul 2006, 18:41   #96
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tactitus
I'm curious how you're going to achieve this. Especially stopping the rocket attacks and suicide bombings. The Israelis, with equipment as good as NATOs and twice the motivation, haven't been able to do it. What carrots and sticks do you think will be effective, and why? Peacekeeping forces also risk becoming targets themselves (see U.S. Marines, Beirut) which is why I think few, if any, countries will be stepping up to offer their troops for such a mission.
By investing more than the piddling amounts usually invested, by moving more than the token troops usually given to these things, by giving them broader powers than the usually restricted ones they're currently given and mostly by making it clear that they are a temporary short-term presence until a workable peace is constructed. Your analogy to the beirut bombings is silly and off-base. The lessons learned since and because of it are vast.

Firstly the sensible thing to do is to establish an exclusion zone a certain number of kilometres in width, something like a similar number of kilometres on either side of the border would have a nice symmetry but that's rather unnecessary realistically speaking. It is made clear that movement through this area will, unfortunately, not be subject to normal rights of passage laws for the term of the stay of the peacekeeping force. Secondly you establish an aerial exclusion zone over the area. Third you construct sensibly placed barracks, adequately defended with appropriate search measures employed for people moving within a certain distance of the relevant bases. Fourth you make it clear that you are there for the people, on both sides, and that attacking them is counter-productive. You make this clear to the leaders of the movements as well. Maybe an attack will occur, maybe it will work, but if you have the leaders and the people convinced that it's a mistake eventually terrorism dies away. If you don't do this it won't. Finally you urge your soldiers to be responsible, to treat the locals with respect and as human beings, to avoid interfering with unnecessarily and to avoid insults to the local populace, their religion, their leaders and their culture.

Quote:
Also, the UN has been in the middle east before. They maintained a buffer zone between Israeli and Egyptian forces from 1956 to 1967 and from 1973 to 1979. They were not able to stop terrorist attacks (or for that matter, the Six Days War). Hell, there are UN peacekeepers along the Lebanese/Israeli border right now. They didn't stop Hezbollah from attacking across the border and capturing two Israeli soldiers. All they can/will do is watch Hezbollah missiles and Israeli jets fly by overhead and wave at the troops going by.
So? That's not an army in the middle east separating two factions. That's a ****ing poor joke, an excuse passed off by the leaders of the western world to soothe our concerns over the fact that so many people are dying unnecessarily in a part of the world where our previous leaders put them.
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Unread 18 Jul 2006, 18:59   #97
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

When the military arm of Hizbollah (supplied and financed by Syria and Iran) launch future attacks will the UN then strike forcefully with full military engagement against Hizbollah and their sponsors?

It is easy for those marginally threatened to criticise the Israelis. During the last year the prime activity of Hizbollah and Hamas has been to rearm and resupply. If I were the Israelis I would not want to give them another year to import another 13,000 rockets of possibly greater capability.

The UN should be backing the Lebanese government in driving Hizbollah out of their country and, if necessary, kicking the crap out of Iran and Syria. If the rest of the world took a strong, militant stance againt Syria and Iran, there might be some chance of achieving peace. However, the world is divided and does not have the will to confront the radical mullahs. So, until it is, I will support Israel's right to protect itself against their enemies.
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Unread 18 Jul 2006, 19:08   #98
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
When the military arm of Hizbollah (supplied and financed by Syria and Iran) launch future attacks will the UN then strike forcefully with full military engagement against Hizbollah and their sponsors?

It is easy for those marginally threatened to criticise the Israelis. During the last year the prime activity of Hizbollah and Hamas has been to rearm and resupply. If I were the Israelis I would not want to give them another year to import another 13,000 rockets of possibly greater capability.

The UN should be backing the Lebanese government in driving Hizbollah out of their country and, if necessary, kicking the crap out of Iran and Syria. If the rest of the world took a strong, militant stance againt Syria and Iran, there might be some chance of achieving peace. However, the world is divided and does not have the will to confront the radical mullahs. So, until it is, I will support Israel's right to protect itself against their enemies.
Can you do me a favor and just admit that Israel has comitted some terrible crimes against humanity in its past? Or are you just completely blind to it? Why are you so one sided here?
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Unread 18 Jul 2006, 19:12   #99
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by dda
When the military arm of Hizbollah (supplied and financed by Syria and Iran) launch future attacks will the UN then strike forcefully with full military engagement against Hizbollah and their sponsors?

It is easy for those marginally threatened to criticise the Israelis. During the last year the prime activity of Hizbollah and Hamas has been to rearm and resupply. If I were the Israelis I would not want to give them another year to import another 13,000 rockets of possibly greater capability.

The UN should be backing the Lebanese government in driving Hizbollah out of their country and, if necessary, kicking the crap out of Iran and Syria. If the rest of the world took a strong, militant stance againt Syria and Iran, there might be some chance of achieving peace. However, the world is divided and does not have the will to confront the radical mullahs. So, until it is, I will support Israel's right to protect itself against their enemies.
Yes, let's send some more Western Armies into the Middle East to overthrow a few brutal regimes, eventually one population will be greatful...
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Unread 18 Jul 2006, 19:16   #100
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Re: The Big Ol' War Thread

Everyone, Israel included, has committed crimes against humanity. However, I do not consider what they are now doing to be a crime against humanity.

I think that the radical right-wing Islamists are the single most destabalizing force in the world today. If they are not confronted they will continue to grow.

North Korea isn't far behind and will have to be confronted sooner or later.

Both North Korea and the Syria/Iranians are not going to go away mildly. They will not listen to reason.

The world thought that it could compromise with fascism but it was wrong. The Germans thought they had real greivances too but the world would have been better off to have confronted them and the Japanese earlier on.

Compromise is a wonderful thing in most instances but not necessarily the right thing to do at all costs.
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