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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 18:22   #1
shik
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Value & Experience

Hi there,
this isnt really a suggestion, more a question in here at first.
If you cant answer my question to my likes, treat it like i suggest to change it back.

So, why do you enforce Value-Play that much?
Wasnt PA 10 times more fun, when you could also play for XP?

The current score formulae only helps the long standing players in big alliances and galaxies, and the new-player as those have no real chance to become big anymore, if they dont self exile till they are in a top gal or jump the ship till they are in a decent ally, in my humble opinion.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 18:34   #2
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Re: Value & Experience

The old XP formula was proven broken in r16. There was no point building defence ships, or in value at all. The top planet was below the bash limits of the vast majority of the active playerbase. Besides which, taking his roids just helped him gain more score.

It ruined the worth of defence (except in fleetcatches), it ruined the idea of wars, politics and community play.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 20:41   #3
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
The old XP formula was proven broken in r16. There was no point building defence ships, or in value at all. The top planet was below the bash limits of the vast majority of the active playerbase. Besides which, taking his roids just helped him gain more score.

It ruined the worth of defence (except in fleetcatches), it ruined the idea of wars, politics and community play.
Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.






Wrong.


The Terran stats were broken in Round 16. For everyone else it would have been a pretty good round, if it wasn't for Terran. All that needed to happen was a reduction in Terran armour and perhaps a slight change to that XP formula to decrease its reward. Instead you created a situation that I'm glad I never had to experience - by quitting first.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 22:01   #4
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Re: Value & Experience

no, you're wrong. xp was slightly too beneficial indeed, as it had been since the introduction of the thing, however it took such a round of an overflow of attack fleets to the ratio of defence fleets, which of course resulted in most attacks landing, and so on etc. the stats weren't that off at all.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 23:00   #5
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
The Terran stats were broken in Round 16. For everyone else it would have been a pretty good round, if it wasn't for Terran. All that needed to happen was a reduction in Terran armour and perhaps a slight change to that XP formula to decrease its reward. Instead you created a situation that I'm glad I never had to experience - by quitting first.
Dav and Spacez managed it with xand; between them they had less than 1.1m value, but 26.6m score.
chipZ^ and Tomkat managed it with zik; between them they had less than 0.8m value, but 24.6m score.
Nadar and weeks managed it with cath, between them they had less than 0.8m value, but 18.6m score.

Terrans were probably better, but every race seemed perfectly able to XP whore.

And IMO, XP whoring makes PA boring.
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Unread 10 Aug 2006, 23:39   #6
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Re: Value & Experience

1 13 5 1 Lokken Alliance Discussions Ter 460 1,008,735 17,312,955 271,737 JBG Ascendancy
2 9 2 9 General the Felix Legions Zik 1,269 11,286,510 15,157,230 64,512 rain Daous Dava

even in that round of xp overflow the number 2 player was a value player.
it would have needed him maybe 1 more defence fleet in tick 500 or 1 more attack to land and he would be number 1.
okay, i see that there are some ppl who say "hey we build up an alliance over the rounds which is suberb in defence, our tricks in politics dont get us any enemies and were never losing roids, our players do everything to get themselfs into supergals" but thats not the way the game is meant to played is it? Also talkin bout attacting new players again!

well, forgot what i want to write, anyways, i think it was best how it used to be back there.
dont wanna talk about formulae, but there must be a option!

what you think about the old value way of calcing, but also then if an attacks lands on you you lose some xp? after all its experience, and ppl who cant def each other shouldnt get much of it.

what about that: an attack that lands on you subtracts " your value / attacker value * 25 / roids capped in percent " percent of xp?
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 01:53   #7
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Re: Value & Experience

Bring back the old xp!
Maybe make a new formulae based on the old one but that calculates the amount of value you lose in it, so if you lose more than lets say 25% of your fleetvalue you don't get max xp.
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 07:48   #8
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by shik
okay, i see that there are some ppl who say "hey we build up an alliance over the rounds which is suberb in defence, our tricks in politics dont get us any enemies and were never losing roids, our players do everything to get themselfs into supergals" but thats not the way the game is meant to played is it? Also talkin bout attacting new players again!
That's not the point.

Value players rarely consistently win by fencesitting/building uber block gals. Except for Ascendancy who won by XP with little or no interaction with the rest of the univserse, every other round I can remember has been won by the militarily superior alliance or block after they fought their opposition and were victorious. Said alliance then goes on to dominate the top 100. In the length of a round, value normally wins out, but a committed XP whore only alliance has a huge chance of winning without interacting with anyone, except roiding small, new and inexperienced players.

However, I think the problem with XP is that it does almost completely destsroy the point of any form of community. Galaxies are useless except for the galfund, and alliances are useless except for the galfund and perhaps organised attacks.

There is no point attacking another alliance unless you mass fleetcatch them which is still uneffective unless you manage to do it dozens of times, which is nigh impossible. You cannot slow them down by inflicting damage, you can only increase the rate at which they gain score.

There is no point building anything except a pure attack fleet (mostly pods), making the stat design pretty pointless.

There is no point defending anyone against anything that isn't a fleetcatch, and even most fcs can even be ignored as they'll often have a stockpile hidden in a gal/ally fund, it doesn't slow your alliance down, it's a waste of a fleet slot.

There is no point in any form of politics. Being that defence is pointless and levels of incoming don't affect you (aside of aforementioned fleetslots, but no-oneis likely to be small enough, organised enough and have the right fleet to fc you easily anyway), there is no point organising defensive agreements with anyone. Especially since that reduces your target potential. Any form of attacking agreements are also pointless; you can't do damage to anyone, so why bother?


It depends what you want PA to be IMO.

If you want it to mostly be a race between XP whores with the occasional value runner (who stand a chance if they are far more active and do not get incomings for the vast majority of the round, and are perhaps zik with a lot of luck in their stealing) with little or no interaction between them, then the old XP formula is fantastic.

If you want planetarion to be a game built on community and contest; where galaxies and alliances are important, where skill plays a far larger role, and where alliances can give another alliance what for by shoving a load of fleets down their throat, and victory is nearly always achieved by defeating your opponent, then do not use the old XP formula.

EDIT: you might not know, but I played round 16 mostly as an XP whore (You'll find my value/score on the PAwiki planet rankings). For the majority of the round when I was in DLR until I was forced to join ND and organise a war. The effort for which later proved to be a complete waste anyway.
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 08:47   #9
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by shik
1 13 5 1 Lokken Alliance Discussions Ter 460 1,008,735 17,312,955 271,737 JBG Ascendancy
2 9 2 9 General the Felix Legions Zik 1,269 11,286,510 15,157,230 64,512 rain Daous Dava

even in that round of xp overflow the number 2 player was a value player.
it would have needed him maybe 1 more defence fleet in tick 500 or 1 more attack to land and he would be number 1.
You dont seem to realise how inactive xp whores were, I for example launched maybe 3 or 4 attacks in the last 2 weeks of the round (i launched a few in the last days just to stay ahead of Tomkat :P) If xp players wanted too they could haave ended with even more score but things got pretty boring, a value player was never guna win r 16 :P
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 11:17   #10
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
[Childish ranting followed by:]

The Terran stats were broken in Round 16. For everyone else it would have been a pretty good round, if it wasn't for Terran. All that needed to happen was a reduction in Terran armour and perhaps a slight change to that XP formula to decrease its reward. Instead you created a situation that I'm glad I never had to experience - by quitting first.
This is a bad habit of yours. You continuously comment on things about which you, self-admitedly, know nothing. You are not involved in the game anymore and have no clue about the dynamics of the meta enviroment. Yet you continue to post ill informed crap. Why?
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 11:45   #11
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veedeejem!
Bring back the old xp!
Maybe make a new formulae based on the old one but that calculates the amount of value you lose in it, so if you lose more than lets say 25% of your fleetvalue you don't get max xp.
I think XP is a good idea and it's an excellent reward...

Just that the 25% loss thing doesn't really punish the inactive newbie roiding XP whores who still got max XP without losing very many ships at all.
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 11:54   #12
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
I think XP is a good idea and it's an excellent reward...

Just that the 25% loss thing doesn't really punish the inactive newbie roiding XP whores who still got max XP without losing very many ships at all.
Which in round 16 was the stats flaw of terran bs being only stealable by ziks. Without that "exploit" xp whoring would have been somewhat more difficult.

Anyway, I still believe that the current xp formulae sucks and the old one would have required some small tweaking only instead of a complete nerfing.
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 13:10   #13
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartless
Which in round 16 was the stats flaw of terran bs being only stealable by ziks. Without that "exploit" xp whoring would have been somewhat more difficult.

Anyway, I still believe that the current xp formulae sucks and the old one would have required some small tweaking only instead of a complete nerfing.
Surely it can happen to all races though? In round 16, FR were also only stealable, as were DE. This round it's FR, DE, CR.

The issue is tiny planets (~100-200k value) hitting smaller new planets (~300-500k value) and stealing their roids for max XP. At that value, you cannot cover everything unless you add target:ALL ships that do damage at low initiative. I don't believe we currently have the game that will allow stats to prevent XP whoring. And XP whoring is the biggest problem with the old formula IMO.

The only way to stop this is that every single value player should be in an active galaxy/alliance committed to value play... so long as there are smaller players with a larger value and who are not going to be able to regularly get defensive coverage (eg. almost anyone who starts playing PA for the first time), then XP whores will be able to ply their trade.
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 14:40   #14
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by shik
1 13 5 1 Lokken Alliance Discussions Ter 460 1,008,735 17,312,955 271,737 JBG Ascendancy
2 9 2 9 General the Felix Legions Zik 1,269 11,286,510 15,157,230 64,512 rain Daous Dava

even in that round of xp overflow the number 2 player was a value player.
it would have needed him maybe 1 more defence fleet in tick 500 or 1 more attack to land and he would be number 1.
okay, i see that there are some ppl who say "hey we build up an alliance over the rounds which is suberb in defence, our tricks in politics dont get us any enemies and were never losing roids, our players do everything to get themselfs into supergals" but thats not the way the game is meant to played is it? Also talkin bout attacting new players again!

well, forgot what i want to write, anyways, i think it was best how it used to be back there.
dont wanna talk about formulae, but there must be a option!

what you think about the old value way of calcing, but also then if an attacks lands on you you lose some xp? after all its experience, and ppl who cant def each other shouldnt get much of it.

what about that: an attack that lands on you subtracts " your value / attacker value * 25 / roids capped in percent " percent of xp?

rain was a clearly superior player tho. (no offence JBG <3 j00 ) being from a small aliiance, and only having gal defence, mostly, and having lemming runs on him recalled by Admin =/ He would have won otherwise.

And playing XP was just soooo sooooooooooo sooooo boring... U login, send your BS sommere, get a jgp, land, land DE aswell, land some more and youre in top 30 whooo fking hooo... no skill required to win ? why play.
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 14:51   #15
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
The only way to stop this is that every single value player should be in an active galaxy/alliance committed to value play... so long as there are smaller players with a larger value and who are not going to be able to regularly get defensive coverage (eg. almost anyone who starts playing PA for the first time), then XP whores will be able to ply their trade.
so dont you also state in here, that new players dont have a chance to play for value?

anyway, thats not the point, above i told you to include xp losses also.
i think its stupid like is it atm, when a top10 player gets roided and gets more xp than he got with his last 10 attacks.
the formulae i wrote above makes it possible to lose 1% of your xp per wave on you, that should also enforce defending for xp whores. then an ascendancy cant happen again! and value players dont have to care about that 1% xp, just like xp players dont have to care about that 25% of roids...

anybody knows how many landing fleet those top planets had? chipz?
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 16:01   #16
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Re: Value & Experience

Edit - moved to a new thread as it is somewhat off-topic here
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 17:24   #17
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
And playing XP was just soooo sooooooooooo sooooo boring... U login, send your BS sommere, get a jgp, land, land DE aswell, land some more and youre in top 30 whooo fking hooo... no skill required to win ? why play.
Wait, send fleet, later jgp, send another fleet, later jgp, rinse and repeat.

Remind me how 'active' and 'inactive' differ according to you, besides the sitting at a computer for 7 hours or so?

FYI, JBG was active a fair bit, scanning for our gal and picking the right targets he could hit.

People that dismissed xp players as 'lesser skilled' and 'less active' by default should be shot so they don't interfere with the gene pool.

I loathe people that purely used this argument as a reason to change the formula because it meant they had less chance of winning. (I'm looking at elviz here, a great example of someone only interested in himself)
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Unread 11 Aug 2006, 17:36   #18
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Re: Value & Experience

whats wrong with being interested purely in himself ?

And as to XP. I XP whored that round aswell, so i just speak from experience.

My fleet was as follows:

DE pods = 120
BS pods = 60
---------------------------------------------------------------

and i was very successfull, achieving 6 mill SCORE and starting only on tick 900.

Now u go figgure, if that makes me a good player ;/

Scanning for others does not make you a good PA player.

Being good AC and DC makes you a good officer, not a good player.

Waking up when u need to, making smart tactical moves, building balanced fleet, knowing what to send at a given target, and stuff like that makes you a good player. Those who went XP just had no need for any of the above...

Lets say you get defence, then u quickly calc up your losses (wich were usualyl WELCOMED as they lowered your score) versus amounts of roids (and XP) gained. it was just ideotic, that i hit JBG twice a week, besides other targets, and got away wtih it (given, noone ever defended him, but thts my POINT, deam it) Game was not meant to play like that. U are supposed to be biggest baddest planet out there with biggest baddest fleet. What does XP make you,really ? just the guy who landed on most roids, but also who LOST the most roids in order to artificially decrease your value ? pfft
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reading this line is explicit acceptance of my superiority over you
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Unread 12 Aug 2006, 00:22   #19
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Achilles
This is a bad habit of yours. You continuously comment on things about which you, self-admitedly, know nothing. You are not involved in the game anymore and have no clue about the dynamics of the meta enviroment. Yet you continue to post ill informed crap. Why?
Because I played Round 16, numb nuts.



Now **** off.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gate
(statistics)

Terrans were probably better, but every race seemed perfectly able to XP whore.

And IMO, XP whoring makes PA boring.
Perhaps. That's why it needs to be a challenge as it was in rounds pre-r16 where it took a considerable effort to succeed as an XP whore.

Of course, XP whoring is all relative. Someone worked out that there was a % of XP players that acted as a limit where it stopped being efficient to play for value. What we needed to do is to properly reward playing for value, but not do it by destroying XP. We could have done this by increasing the resources generated by roids or by increasing the value of ships relative to the other values. We could have placed a smaller limit on the galaxy fund.


But no, the PA community just lashed out at the first thing it saw the mechanism by which PA had become fun again (Rounds 11-15, people). As I said, I'm glad I got out when I did.
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Unread 12 Aug 2006, 01:25   #20
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Because I played Round 16, numb nuts.



Now **** off.
so did he: and ended t40 as a value planet xandathrii.
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Unread 12 Aug 2006, 01:27   #21
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
rain was a clearly superior player tho.
hahahahahahahahahaha
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Unread 12 Aug 2006, 01:38   #22
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
so did he: and ended t40 as a value planet xandathrii.
Telling me I wasn't involved in Round 16, as he inferred, is laughable.
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Unread 12 Aug 2006, 01:42   #23
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
Waking up when u need to, making smart tactical moves, building balanced fleet, knowing what to send at a given target, and stuff like that makes you a good player. Those who went XP just had no need for any of the above...
building a fleet specialised to extract the most xp is a smart tactical move.
waking up 2 ticks before to do the resource spending hack was a smart tactical move.
building a balanced fleet of expendable ships only to extract as much score as possible for as little loss as possible was a smart tactical move.
knowing what exact ships to send to what specific targets to extract most xp/roids is a smart tactical move

...

anyone who thinks playing value-pa is any MORE 'skilled' is lying to themselves, i'm not joking, if you think that's skillful you're probably an idiot as most of the value-whoring high rankers have attained them by shit means too, you know, fencesitting, defleeching and so on over the years. value-whores do however generally need more effort to look after, but even then most of the stresses go to the officer. by the way, a good officer is 10x a better 'player' than a good "player" as you think it is, ie a "good" rankwhore.

Last edited by jerome; 12 Aug 2006 at 01:51.
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Unread 12 Aug 2006, 01:44   #24
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball
Telling me I wasn't involved in Round 16, as he inferred, is laughable.
considering you said this "Instead you created a situation that I'm glad I never had to experience - by quitting first" i find it's quite understandable.
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Unread 12 Aug 2006, 02:01   #25
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by jerome
considering you said this "Instead you created a situation that I'm glad I never had to experience - by quitting first" i find it's quite understandable.
By that I meant the present XP formula where planets bash (i.e. attack at the 40% limit) out of choice because there's no longer any reward for not doing so. It makes the game a whole lot less fun.



EDIT: now, this information is from what I've heard from friends who still play the game.
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Unread 12 Aug 2006, 09:38   #26
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mighteh
whats wrong with being interested purely in himself ?
I find it rather depressing he'd rather dump his friends in an online community, just so he can say 'i won another round of an online spreadsheet game'.
Quote:
and i was very successfull, achieving 6 mill SCORE and starting only on tick 900.
Well I could have had 6 billion score and not be in the top 1000, it depends on relative scores.

As for the rest of your post, jerome answered it.
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Unread 12 Aug 2006, 13:16   #27
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by furball

Perhaps. That's why it needs to be a challenge as it was in rounds pre-r16 where it took a considerable effort to succeed as an XP whore.
XP have always been the same since its introduction. You could do very well going for XP before as well
R16 was the first round where a lot of people actually started to use it to its fullest extent. Thats what made it so visible.

R15 i ended up around #350 as a freebiee. Not active and since i never did the math, i ended up doing a lot of suboptimal attacks. Not having any scans didnt help any either Each attack was basically a suicide run.
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Unread 12 Aug 2006, 19:27   #28
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by everybody
blablabla
now comon stop this talking just about if YOU like or hate XP, try to help!
btw, is there any body able to change something at all or are we just idiots talking and hoping?
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Unread 13 Aug 2006, 10:43   #29
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Re: Value & Experience

why having a discussion about which playing style is the most skilled?
It should be about what is worst? a top 10 with players you cant hit? or a top 10 with players you can hit, you just need some help of friends. and luck that the planet doesn't use its saved ress.

Value is the lesser evil. A XP round like round 16 is damaging for PA.

So, no old xp back.
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Unread 13 Aug 2006, 11:34   #30
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thefoundation
why having a discussion about which playing style is the most skilled?
It should be about what is worst? a top 10 with players you cant hit? or a top 10 with players you can hit, you just need some help of friends. and luck that the planet doesn't use its saved ress.

Value is the lesser evil. A XP round like round 16 is damaging for PA.

So, no old xp back.
The new bash formula takes into account score so xp players aren't immune like you say.

XP damaging for PA?

You ****ing idiot.
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Unread 13 Aug 2006, 11:40   #31
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Re: Value & Experience

Well to be perfectly honest, I think score & XP can be linked the way they are now, but the value should be the only parameter to the bash limit, imho.

That is, planets with similar values can compete together, regardless of their score. If a guy with 10 times my score & about the same value as me wants to attack me, then fine. I even may be very happy to defend against him, because of the score I could get from that.

Value = what you are
Score = what you did with your value

I reckon there are different ways to see that... I still tend to think that value is more important than pure XP & score. But on the other hand, someone who is able to gather a ton of XP with just a small fleet is also meritorious, thus the rankings based on score are legitimate.
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Unread 13 Aug 2006, 12:53   #32
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon_Fodder
The new bash formula takes into account score so xp players aren't immune like you say.

XP damaging for PA?

You ****ing idiot.
Cannon fodder, the discussion was on the following subject:
"should we get old xp back"

i thought after making 3000+ post and having a nice green bar, you would have learned how to read.

ill explain why old xp is damaging to PA:
A value player can be taken down, a Xp player cant:
Due to:
Roid loss is good for a xp player
Ships are easily replaced.

that's damaging, you disrupt the rankings by making it impossible to lose ranks.

On the part of idiot:

****ing r*tard learn to read. kn*b head.
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Unread 13 Aug 2006, 13:31   #33
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thefoundation
Cannon fodder, the discussion was on the following subject:
"should we get old xp back"

i thought after making 3000+ post and having a nice green bar, you would have learned how to read.

ill explain why old xp is damaging to PA:
A value player can be taken down, a Xp player cant:
Due to:
Roid loss is good for a xp player
Ships are easily replaced.

that's damaging, you disrupt the rankings by making it impossible to lose ranks.

On the part of idiot:

****ing r*tard learn to read. kn*b head.
The discussion started by the OP was on changing the score formula to be less xp harsh like it is now. He did not say he wanted the old xp formula back.
(Oh look who didn't read)

Xp players do lose ranks if you defend against their attacks because value players can sit on their roids and gain masses of score that way (JBG posted during that round about how often xp players needed to land just to keep up with the value income from big roid holders) Ergo as the round progress the xp players fall down the ranks naturally (not including any that are fc etc)

Roid loss isn't that great for an xp player, r16 was often suiciding some pods on ziks, they had to be replaced each day, cant do that without enough roids. That and the score drop from losing roids (hence more xp) wasn't that big since you never had many in the first place.

Ships arent easily replaced if you don't have roids
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Unread 13 Aug 2006, 14:29   #34
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon_Fodder
The discussion started by the OP was on changing the score formula to be less xp harsh like it is now. He did not say he wanted the old xp formula back.
(Oh look who didn't read)

Xp players do lose ranks if you defend against their attacks because value players can sit on their roids and gain masses of score that way (JBG posted during that round about how often xp players needed to land just to keep up with the value income from big roid holders) Ergo as the round progress the xp players fall down the ranks naturally (not including any that are fc etc)

Roid loss isn't that great for an xp player, r16 was often suiciding some pods on ziks, they had to be replaced each day, cant do that without enough roids. That and the score drop from losing roids (hence more xp) wasn't that big since you never had many in the first place.

Ships arent easily replaced if you don't have roids
no the duscussion was why do they enforece playing value
/care

the income, lol, people poste earlier, if only the XP players launched more often. The score diffrence would be more.
R16 could only be won by XP

Now **** off
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Unread 13 Aug 2006, 14:55   #35
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thefoundation
no the duscussion was why do they enforece playing value
/care

the income, lol, people poste earlier, if only the XP players launched more often. The score diffrence would be more.
R16 could only be won by XP

Now **** off
Yes he was saying the formula was too value biased and he enjoyed the xp play more hence change the formula.

There's a finite limit on the number of attacks you can send out you know?
Most xp players were at that limit

R16 could have been won by a value player had the round gone on for a few more days or rain was suicided on successfully (lol)
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Unread 13 Aug 2006, 16:27   #36
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Re: Value & Experience

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannon_Fodder
Yes he was saying the formula was too value biased and he enjoyed the xp play more hence change the formula.

There's a finite limit on the number of attacks you can send out you know?
Most xp players were at that limit

R16 could have been won by a value player had the round gone on for a few more days or rain was suicided on successfully (lol)
you got time in days/hours/minutes
and you got the number of launches.
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Unread 13 Aug 2006, 16:43   #37
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Re: Value & Experience

What are you talking about?
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