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Unread 12 Jul 2014, 14:33   #51
Papadoc
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Question Re: R58 Stats

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Originally Posted by ArcChas View Post
Using lol waves as an alliance weapon is fine. Needing to set up lol waves to stand a chance of landing is another.

I remember one recent stats-maker justifying a lack of solo attacking options by stating specifically that team-ups were needed in order to land. It is that mindset that I wish to discourage.

That is exactly what I was talking about!

It seems our community as a whole has just accepted 5-10 fleet waves as the status quo. The result is everyone thinking these stats are offensive because it's hard to hold roids this round. When it's actually just a lol wave bash fest that is giving that apperance.

I believe the new stats should strive for viable solo roiding fleets. Not every attack should require emp to land.
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Unread 12 Jul 2014, 14:43   #52
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Re: R58 Stats

You are missing that these stats are viable for solo landing if there is no defence. It is just that you expect defence so you make a teamup to discourage it. Indeed it is partly the offensive nature of this round's stats that has resulted in the rollercoster that is the alliance ranking - particularly the size rankings this round.

Xan can certainly land solo; p3n are doing it a lot at the moment against ND, and ND are slightly less often doing so against p3n.
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Unread 12 Jul 2014, 15:04   #53
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Re: R58 Stats

Im not sure lolwaves have much to do with stats at all. A lolwave is a totally subjective concept, and i assume the term originates from 'lol thats far more than you need to get trough little me' or words to that effect. Which means that really a lolwave is roughly proportional to the victim's defensive capacity, and if thats the case then the stats are not relevant what looks like an absurd amount of attackers rises or falls as the stats change.

Obviously stats can be offensive or defensive, but ppls psychology is pretty constant, and the idea that splitting the roids 5 ways to get a pretty sure land is for a lot of ppl better than going through a week of not landing because it only needed one or two defenders to stop their one or two man team.

Of course for the defending DC all other things being equal, if they can stop 3 solos on 3 planets with 3 def fleets or one 3 man team on 1 planet, they are gonna stop the solos because its more efficient. This of course is what influences ppl to team in the first place.
(I am ofc aware that some stats require you to team, and that is perhaps not a good thing)

Wanna kill the lol wave; cripple alliances defensive capacity with very small tag sizes!!!
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Unread 12 Jul 2014, 19:36   #54
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Re: R58 Stats

I think Lolwaves are just a cowards way to wage war if the alliance is not willing to put in the time and effort to properly attack someone then they dont deserve to land. Lolwaves just take out the def draws, fake attacks, recall/relaunch. Its as simple as sending out a message 5-6h before launch saying " Launch x y z lt T" and then people prelaunch hours ahead of time and the defender is looking at 5-20 fleets in one tick and will likely go undefended just because the waste of fleets to cover 1 wave.

I think this round really struggled with solos because A/C's were way too high. Xan has an avg A/C of 394 which is VERY high when you consider that they are suppose to be a low armor high damage race. Compare that the D/C of terran which normally is suppose to be sub-par or even Low damage. Average D/C of 368 thats 25 points lower, meaning that terrans cant even target xans a 100% eff. That in itself is a problem.


I want stats that make it each race and each fleet has 1-2 options for solo attacking. However they will always be def options to stop you. And I also want to allow for proper teaming because most people LIKE to play with friends but make it so that you don't need to have these massive 5-10 man waves just to land, one way that you do that is you make attack ships have low armor and high damage. Meaning that they do fire 1st but if they ever get stopped with emp or flack they will take substancial losses.
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Unread 12 Jul 2014, 20:28   #55
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Re: R58 Stats

The 'launch whole alliance at x y z' scenario was not what I thought you meant by lolwaves at all. I assumed you were talking about big teams on an ordinary planned raid.
If you did mean 5 man teams then you misunderstood me totally; you can make the stats as offensive as you like, you won't end teams unless defence is really so bad it is just not an option and everyone just attacks constantly; otherwise they will simply calculate to attack with enough to outgun 2-3 def fleets in order to get through.

Honestly just go ST; thats about as attack orientated as ppl will accept. Tho unfortunately I never play ST rounds so i guess i won't be coming back as I had thought about doing.
It was a Mad idea anyway!!
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Unread 12 Jul 2014, 21:51   #56
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Re: R58 Stats

I use to hate ST stats, then i realized they actually make the game fun, they promote more bReps which everyone likes. Whats the worst kind of round is where you attack every night and you land maybe 1 out of 5 nights and the rest are recalled. If you make some attack ships strong enough to win vs certain races and leave them open to other classes for def its quite effective.
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Unread 12 Jul 2014, 22:10   #57
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Re: R58 Stats

Everyone likes to laugh at a crash, in either defence or offence, but if you make stats were defences tend to be costly and attackers will just try their luck unless there is 'loldef' then ppl just give up defending.

U can't make stats to influence ppls psychology is what I've been trying to say all along; if you tilt it to attack you won't get more battles, you just tilt the decision over taking the risk of a land away from the attackers onto alliance DCs. As long as battles have high costs for either side, one side or other will decide to withdraw from it rather than engage. (assuming there is no political reason to take the loss, like damaging an attacking top player, one of my main memories of PA was a bloody defensive battle in r33 in which elviz landed on me at great cost to both me and him, cost us both a lot of ranks, yeah everyone loved the battle report, excerpt anyone who was actually in it!)

U won't convert me to ST stats but i will happily accept that i am in a small minority since i usually play defensively, 2 def fleets one attack day in day out, but the problem with that is you can't afford to be landed on very much cos ur not gonna get em back.

[EDIT]: I seem to have posted somewhat in haste, and misunderstood; clearly you were meaning more battles because with ST the def ships would shoot the attackers without any cost to themselves as a result a small amount of def would still be worthwhile sending, so you mean making attacks more costly (but still worth landing for the roids?) not defence in such cases. my apologies.
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Unread 13 Jul 2014, 00:42   #58
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Re: R58 Stats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
I use to hate ST stats, then i realized they actually make the game fun, they promote more bReps which everyone likes. Whats the worst kind of round is where you attack every night and you land maybe 1 out of 5 nights and the rest are recalled. If you make some attack ships strong enough to win vs certain races and leave them open to other classes for def its quite effective.
I assume its very hard for you to put yourself into the position where you could land an attack where you would loose score in return that your enemy in a war would loose more than you?
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Unread 13 Jul 2014, 07:50   #59
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Re: R58 Stats

I've changed my mind, if I'm supposed to debate stats with the people replying in this thread then I'm out.
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Unread 13 Jul 2014, 08:19   #60
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Re: R58 Stats

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Originally Posted by Papadoc View Post
That is exactly what I was talking about!

It seems our community as a whole has just accepted 5-10 fleet waves as the status quo. The result is everyone thinking these stats are offensive because it's hard to hold roids this round. When it's actually just a lol wave bash fest that is giving that apperance.

I believe the new stats should strive for viable solo roiding fleets. Not every attack should require emp to land.
Ppl attack in 4 and 5's for safety nothing else. It's not to with stats or trends or whatever it's simply 5 are more likely to land than 2. When DCIng multiple incs they single and 2's are easier to cover than the 4's and 5's.

It's just life. No stats will change it . If anything tias idea to make you need 4 or 5 nullifies this to a degree but you will never stop ppl doing it.

I'm with isil, ppl who reply and 'debate' here are too idealistic and think stats can solve all pa problems, THEY CANT
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Unread 13 Jul 2014, 15:26   #61
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Re: R58 Stats

None of the posts in this thread so far get us a nanometer closer to a set of stats for r58. So let's get the ball rolling. I made this a while back: http://pastebin.com/ByHPH5bJ

High level info:
- Mixed ST/MT
- 2-3 pods per race
- Partial SKs

I suggest getting a bunch of basic stat sets together (classes, targetting, types, inits) and picking the best of the lot for one person to develop further (with advice from others).
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Unread 13 Jul 2014, 16:26   #62
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Re: R58 Stats

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

heres one i made today
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Unread 13 Jul 2014, 16:37   #63
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Re: R58 Stats

I will come up with my stats within two days.
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Unread 13 Jul 2014, 16:41   #64
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Re: R58 Stats

I like Mz's giving xan only two pods, should make it slightly easier to balance them by reducing the faking options slightly. I presume etd and zik only get two due to having steal ships that may capture pods?
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Unread 13 Jul 2014, 17:09   #65
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Re: R58 Stats

Mz normally has epic Pegasus ship in his stats. Lets play them
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Unread 13 Jul 2014, 20:53   #66
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Re: R58 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by booji View Post
I like Mz's giving xan only two pods, should make it slightly easier to balance them by reducing the faking options slightly. I presume etd and zik only get two due to having steal ships that may capture pods?
Yes. Cat gets 3 because Cat faking is hilariously pointless. Ter gets 3 because I like Ter. BIAS TIME. (Also their race characteristic is the weakest of all the races.)

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Mz normally has epic Pegasus ship in his stats. Lets play them
It's a ******** legacy, I'm afraid.
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Unread 14 Jul 2014, 06:15   #67
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Re: R58 Stats

We need to get the people that are ACTUALLY going to part of this committee sitting down and talking NOT on the forums. We could make a Google.docs or have a IRC channel to post ideas/thoughts etc...
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Unread 14 Jul 2014, 08:59   #68
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Re: R58 Stats

Me + Mz, boom, committee sorted!
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Unread 14 Jul 2014, 14:25   #69
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Re: R58 Stats

Stop wasting time yelling "committee" and look at the stats from Blue_Esper and MZ.

Atleast they have put something together to try to get this started.
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Unread 14 Jul 2014, 16:20   #70
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Re: R58 Stats

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

Okey, now ive started putting the stats together.
You can kind of see where im heading with these stats, allthough i havnt used enough time to put the stats together to look through them yet, might be something ive overlooked.
The amount of pod classes and ships might mess with some people, but its on purpose.
If there is some question or pointers to the ship classes/init, ill look through them now as im gonna start putting in armor/damage/empres/cost
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Unread 14 Jul 2014, 16:53   #71
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Re: R58 Stats

BB you can do a 3 ship build in every race...I think we need to have a ST round again, instead of people just spamming 2-3 ships all round they will be forced to make 4-5 ships.
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Unread 14 Jul 2014, 18:18   #72
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Re: R58 Stats

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Originally Posted by WillyNilly View Post
BB you can do a 3 ship build in every race...I think we need to have a ST round again, instead of people just spamming 2-3 ships all round they will be forced to make 4-5 ships.
So we want stats thats open for soloing, playable for alliances who defend, and that requires you to build a lot of diffrent ship classes?
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Unread 14 Jul 2014, 18:57   #73
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Re: R58 Stats

MT rounds are always defensive rounds...people emoing about LOLWAVES...those stats won't help lessen that, it will probably cause people to make even larger team ups to land.
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Unread 14 Jul 2014, 18:59   #74
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Re: R58 Stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
So we want stats thats open for soloing, playable for alliances who defend, and that requires you to build a lot of diffrent ship classes?
There is no "we". Individual people want things. Make stats that you think work. Variety is good.

(That said, MT stats tend to be more defensive, and overly defensive stats tend to make for bad rounds. I am still not convinced that all MT stats are necessarily overly defensive.)
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Unread 14 Jul 2014, 19:10   #75
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Re: R58 Stats

My attempt at targeting


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing
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Unread 14 Jul 2014, 23:08   #76
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Re: R58 Stats

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Originally Posted by Mzyxptlk View Post
There is no "we". Individual people want things. Make stats that you think work. Variety is good.

(That said, MT stats tend to be more defensive, and overly defensive stats tend to make for bad rounds. I am still not convinced that all MT stats are necessarily overly defensive.)
Well this is what i was heading at, i dont think these stats are as "defensively" other MT stats might tend to be.
Stats differs, its hard to make good stats as poiitics also differs from round to round,
Im making the stats i think would be good for next round
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Unread 16 Jul 2014, 14:16   #77
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Re: R58 Stats

My bad. I haven't been paying attention and suddenly we have 5 sets coming out of the woodwork. FIVE sets. I'm not sure we've ever had more than 2 sets.

I don't know what to do. panic. panic. hide. BloodyButcher was the first one to nudge me on IRC so he's currently setting his stats up on the beta server, but I'll try and have a quick review today of the others - is anyone willing to say theirs are near finished?
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Unread 16 Jul 2014, 15:37   #78
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Re: R58 Stats

Just to clarify appoco. Would it be possible to have the "all etd" round mentioned in the other thread?
Not in r58 obviously, but sometime soon
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Unread 17 Jul 2014, 11:03   #79
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Re: R58 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
is anyone willing to say theirs are near finished?
Not me.
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Unread 17 Jul 2014, 13:08   #80
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Re: R58 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
My bad. I haven't been paying attention and suddenly we have 5 sets coming out of the woodwork. FIVE sets. I'm not sure we've ever had more than 2 sets.

I don't know what to do. panic. panic. hide. BloodyButcher was the first one to nudge me on IRC so he's currently setting his stats up on the beta server, but I'll try and have a quick review today of the others - is anyone willing to say theirs are near finished?
Imho you should select one of the many stats in development to support and concentrate efforts on that one or let the chaos reign and just look for an old set of stats from a previous round that you could copy-paste comfortably if everything else fails.
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Unread 17 Jul 2014, 13:24   #81
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Re: R58 Stats

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Originally Posted by fortran View Post
Imho you should select one of the many stats in development to support and concentrate efforts on that one or let the chaos reign and just look for an old set of stats from a previous round that you could copy-paste comfortably if everything else fails.
its impossibole to fail at making stats
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Unread 17 Jul 2014, 13:36   #82
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Re: R58 Stats

Quote:
Originally Posted by fortran View Post
Imho you should select one of the many stats in development to support and concentrate efforts on that one or let the chaos reign and just look for an old set of stats from a previous round that you could copy-paste comfortably if everything else fails.
I think that if we let this continue for a couple of more weeks, at most 2 sets of stats would remain viable, and choosing between them shouldn't be too hard.

...But admittedly, I'm not certain.
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The outraged poets threw sticks and rocks over the side of the bridge. They were all missing Mary and he felt a contented smug feeling wash over him. He would have given them a coy little wave if the roof hadn't collapsed just then. Mary then found himself in the middle of an understandably shocked family's kitchen table. So he gave them the coy little wave and realized it probably would have been more effective if he hadn't been lying on their turkey.
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Unread 17 Jul 2014, 15:06   #83
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Re: R58 Stats

id say mine are finished, but would need to check the EMP effs
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Unread 17 Jul 2014, 15:58   #84
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Re: R58 Stats

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Originally Posted by BloodyButcher View Post
its impossibole to fail at making stats
but it is not impossible to make fail stats
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Unread 17 Jul 2014, 15:59   #85
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Re: R58 Stats

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Originally Posted by Blue_Esper View Post
id say mine are finished, but would need to check the EMP effs
I actualy started in the opposite direction, first check EMP eff, thrn moving from there
Guess its because im a cath player
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Unread 17 Jul 2014, 18:16   #86
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Re: R58 Stats

I think we should throw Blue_espers stats into beta for now let him tweak emps effs and see what comes out. They looks the closest to finished.
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Unread 17 Jul 2014, 19:01   #87
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Re: R58 Stats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
I think we should throw Blue_espers stats into beta for now let him tweak emps effs and see what comes out. They looks the closest to finished.
Im soon finished with mine, and all the time i used putting it into beta would be a waste then
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Unread 17 Jul 2014, 22:01   #88
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Re: R58 Stats

It is indeed a pretty horrific interface. Appoco, import function please!
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Unread 17 Jul 2014, 23:50   #89
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Re: R58 Stats

Well i just hope you plan on balancing those a/c d/c's B-Butcher. As it stands terran is not going to be played unless you give them an ally def vs fi.
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Unread 18 Jul 2014, 00:34   #90
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Re: R58 Stats

okay people justify to me why you think your stats are worth playing and what characteristics drive them!
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Unread 18 Jul 2014, 02:49   #91
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Re: R58 Stats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Well i just hope you plan on balancing those a/c d/c's B-Butcher. As it stands terran is not going to be played unless you give them an ally def vs fi.
like that is the big issue with that set
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Unread 18 Jul 2014, 03:50   #92
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Re: R58 Stats

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Originally Posted by Tiamat101 View Post
Well i just hope you plan on balancing those a/c d/c's B-Butcher. As it stands terran is not going to be played unless you give them an ally def vs fi.
I havnt started on the AC/DC realy, but its all in the beta server now "almost".
http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.p...n=550866724996
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Unread 18 Jul 2014, 07:44   #93
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Re: R58 Stats

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Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
okay people justify to me why you think your stats are worth playing and what characteristics drive them!
well i haven't had any comments on my stats, but apart from EMP eff and perhaps giving zik and cath a non steal/emp ship if people have some serious issue there. They're ready to go.
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Unread 19 Jul 2014, 00:25   #94
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Re: R58 Stats

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its impossibole to fail at making stats

Unless you're Tia
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Unread 19 Jul 2014, 03:15   #95
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Re: R58 Stats

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Unless you're Tia
Well we clearly have a totaly diffrent approach to making the stats.
For me its about making stats that can be played in certain ways, after having a chat with Tia, it seems to me he thinks the players will find ways to play the stats themself.
Though he might be good at making the numbers and stuff look nice.
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Unread 19 Jul 2014, 06:31   #96
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Re: R58 Stats

Stats will always suck until all races are treated equal on cov ops!!!! Tired of having to be cath to properly covert op!!!

Just remember that good stats and bad stats don't always make up the race comp of the universe. People like xan for cloak, people like cath for emp, people like zik cause they can steal and crazy high effiencies. People also chose cath because of covert ops and quick research for scans. Likewise people will always choose Terran due to construction spamming be it amps, dists, fc's, or now mc's.

Now seriously.... Make other races equal/on par with cath with covert ops. I'm sooooo tired of emp
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Unread 19 Jul 2014, 07:24   #97
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Re: R58 Stats

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I havnt started on the AC/DC realy, but its all in the beta server now "almost".
http://beta.planetarion.com/manual.p...n=550866724996
erm...is it me!? or is that the new Planetarion2.0 ???

2 podclasses for TER and ZIK, 3 for CAT and XAN and ETD even with 4 ?

And thats because TER was so overpowered the last 10 rounds ? I can only imagine this set to be a late aprils fool.

ok after lookin on more then the podclasses i have to rephrase the aprils fools wording.

How is anyone going to play anything else but FR with this set, while the only option to roid those FR forts is attacking them with FR !?

please pick another set now, so the guy doing it has enough time to tweak ACDC, thank you
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Unread 19 Jul 2014, 08:38   #98
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Re: R58 Stats

anyone got comments on the stats i did?
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Unread 19 Jul 2014, 10:15   #99
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Re: R58 Stats

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anyone got comments on the stats i did?
other then that it has 3 pods each race it looks good on first sight (i really dislike those 3 pod stuff, but it seems to be wanted by many)

you got my vote to take that beta-spot for your set, instead of the FR/DE fort stuff
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Unread 19 Jul 2014, 10:38   #100
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Re: R58 Stats

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anyone got comments on the stats i did?
Please, please, consider going to 2 pod classes. The universe is so much better that way
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