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Unread 21 May 2014, 00:22   #201
SantaCruz
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Re: R57 Stats sets

That sums up all the changes until this point. I'm going to take tonight to do anymore I can find. I will then list there here. Tomorrow beta can run.

If I read everyone's requests and idea's. If I didn't take it, the problem or weakness is probably there because I put it there in the first place. If you want to pm me about my choices or ask here I will reply with my reasoning for leaving it as it is.
Thanks much guys
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Unread 21 May 2014, 00:37   #202
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Re: R57 Stats sets

I still don't like emp ship having 534 a/c. It will always get to fire unless emp'd 1st by roach. But why does it get the awsome terran armor... Hell it has more armor than zik does and they fire last with worse eff.
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Unread 21 May 2014, 00:57   #203
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Re: R57 Stats sets

Updates
Mara t2 -
tycoon t2 -
*neither was supposed to have a t2 before. I forgot to remove them when i was playing with t2's to check eff's
tara init 1 > 2
Dev A/C 487
Guard A/C 479
Locust T1 FR > T1 De
Smuggler T1 FR T2 Co > T1 De T2
Corsair T1 De T2 FR > T1 FR T2 De
Cutlass Init 18 > 19 A/c 470 D/C 490
Buccs A/C 491 D/C 479
Cutter A/C 512 D/C 470

Cost balance with ETD Co and Zik Co Pod. They were to low
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Last edited by SantaCruz; 21 May 2014 at 03:19.
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Unread 21 May 2014, 08:34   #204
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Re: R57 Stats sets

Thats alot better ... DON'T MAKE ANY MAJOR CHANGES.
Slightly lower a few de ships emp resistances

Syren has been made useful. Good Job

And maybe swap the dealer t1 and t2 for... T1 BS T2 CR
And Make locusts fire AFTER Rangers

These stats are now ready for beta testing.
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Unread 21 May 2014, 08:50   #205
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Re: R57 Stats sets

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Originally Posted by Paisley View Post
And Make locusts fire AFTER Rangers

I agree Santa, that's one of the things we missed, I even told you locust should be removed but now make it init 8 and all good
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Unread 21 May 2014, 09:48   #206
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Re: R57 Stats sets

Beetle looks O/P compared to xan fi for me. Last round it was 170% effective and this was widely regarded as being the only problem with last rnds stats. This rnd it looks to be around 175% effective against xan fi. To much imho.
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Unread 21 May 2014, 11:05   #207
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Re: R57 Stats sets

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Beetle looks O/P compared to xan fi for me. Last round it was 170% effective and this was widely regarded as being the only problem with last rnds stats. This rnd it looks to be around 175% effective against xan fi. To much imho.
Could be right might have to make spiders fire on the same init as a means of compensation aswell as adjust fi emp resistances ... I said the stats were ready for beta testing but not finished.
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Unread 21 May 2014, 11:47   #208
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Re: R57 Stats sets

Well let me put it to you lightly. If the beetle is not 170% effective vs xan fi then cat co cant attack. Caths wont be able to have 80% beetles 20% vipers this round. Both fr and De are VERY strong vs co. Considering that scarab emp's before viper albet at T2 it still means it doesn't fire. Now that being said I would argue that this change happens:
Beetle init->2
Spider init->3

This will mean that scarab will fire before beetle and vipers meaning that scarabs + xan fi will still work in def. But if you lower emp res on Xan Fi you make Cat co an unplayable fleet unless mass teams. Another arguement could be made that Harpy can get E/R buff putting it at 140ish same as Spider so that way its a emp tank as well as the damage tank. Santa has made this very clear in most of his posts as well as in pm's to anyone thats approached him. He's leaving holes in every fleet so that it isnt just the win all be all fleet that 80% of the round picks. Which given a few minor bumps, he has done so. The ideal stats to me are one where EVERY ship class from every race is viable to play and do well with, and we are close with this stat set.
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Unread 21 May 2014, 13:19   #209
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Re: R57 Stats sets

I disagree with your comments on the beetle. Every round people comment on stats saying 'this rnd is different, emp will have to build more ships other than 80% beets' yet every rnd almost every cath builds 80% beetle's. Last round was a gd example. This ship is ALWAYS OP.

At 175% effective it basically means you have to have twice the value to even land an attack. Changing this to 150-160% effective would be an improvement and would also mean caths would stop building so many beetles as it is no longer OP and we would have different emp fleets flying instead of the SAME old co every round.
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Unread 21 May 2014, 13:36   #210
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Re: R57 Stats sets

Locust init 6 > 8
Just to touch on the Cath co. I can't make those changes Tia. If spider was init 3 Reaper would fire on them as they fire emp. Thats abit much. So instead..
All FI > E/R raise around 10%.
This also helps Vs Scarabs DE. I think this is still the kinda thing you were all looking for.

I can't lower beetles Eff lower then that. Co needs to be able to hit Fi.
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Unread 21 May 2014, 13:42   #211
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Re: R57 Stats sets

I think the last changes made a good balanced set even better

however zik should have a anti co ship for ally imho, so gief smuggler its 2nd target CO back
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Unread 21 May 2014, 13:44   #212
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Re: R57 Stats sets

The thing about beetles this round vs last round is that they have actual teamups now. Last round you had the occasional player that managed to steal co pods, this round they will start off with teamable races. So if effs cant be lowered I think e/r should def be raised as beetles dont need to be 175% eff to be useful this round as there will be kill/steal ships flying with them.
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Unread 21 May 2014, 14:07   #213
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Re: R57 Stats sets

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Originally Posted by SantaCruz View Post
Just to touch on the Cath co. I can't make those changes Tia. If spider was init 3 Reaper would fire on them as they fire emp.
It tends to be best to reserve inits 1-3 for EMP, 4-10 for kill and 17-21 for steal. Minor point, though.
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Unread 21 May 2014, 18:52   #214
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Re: R57 Stats sets

Isn't it possible to just move every init 3 and higher up one? So 5>6, 6>7, etc, without breaking anything? I mean, if that's the main thing stopping you, that should be easy to fix.

Anyway, stats look fairly balanced for the most part. Nice job I'm still kind of worried that fr might have a hard time defending vs cr/bs. They get hit hard.
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Unread 21 May 2014, 19:51   #215
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Re: R57 Stats sets

Is there a reason that Cath have Termite as Fr SK. Is this a mistake or do you really want Cath to have Fr Sks?
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Unread 21 May 2014, 21:20   #216
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Re: R57 Stats sets

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Originally Posted by WillyNilly View Post
Is there a reason that Cath have Termite as Fr SK. Is this a mistake or do you really want Cath to have Fr Sks?
I've been wondering the same for days already, all other races have Siege class SKs. Doesn't make sense really to have 1 race with FR SKs.
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Unread 21 May 2014, 21:22   #217
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Re: R57 Stats sets

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I've been wondering the same for days already, all other races have Siege class SKs. Doesn't make sense really to have 1 race with FR SKs.
Santa is probably playing Cat.
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Unread 21 May 2014, 22:41   #218
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Re: R57 Stats sets

Quote:
Originally Posted by WillyNilly View Post
Is there a reason that Cath have Termite as Fr SK. Is this a mistake or do you really want Cath to have Fr Sks?
It's like that because i didn't think 3 race teaming FR needed Sk's involved also. Having 3 BS classed Sk's attacking with CR also seems a bit much.

There is 2 bs Sk's and 2 Cr sk's 1 FR sk. That's why. I didn't know what else to do with the 5th. So i gave it to the one race that doesn't get to kill much in the first place.
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Unread 21 May 2014, 22:43   #219
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Re: R57 Stats sets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Machado View Post
Isn't it possible to just move every init 3 and higher up one? So 5>6, 6>7, etc, without breaking anything? I mean, if that's the main thing stopping you, that should be easy to fix.

Anyway, stats look fairly balanced for the most part. Nice job I'm still kind of worried that fr might have a hard time defending vs cr/bs. They get hit hard.
There is no need to do that. I could have/would have if i wanted when making the first init 3 kill ship. But, it wasn't really required. The interaction between co/fi is fine the way it is now. Unless someone can PROVE otherwise, i will stick to my calcs and trust.

Plus it wouldn't just be an easy move everything up an init. That could meaing doing to to 30 ships. There is T1 fi T2 de involved means De inits come into play T2 fr or T1 fr/de. It could a nightmare.

Also CR/Bs is supposed to hit into FR gals. So don't be worried. It will happen. That's the point ^^
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Last edited by SantaCruz; 21 May 2014 at 22:55.
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Unread 22 May 2014, 02:25   #220
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Re: R57 Stats sets

Final changes before I call it final and hand things over to Appoc
Harpy Dmg +1
Nixies armor +1
Valkie armor +1 dmg +1
Cerb Dmg +2
Syren A/C Raise 523 Raise D/C 357
Smuggler T1 DE > T1 Co, Init 18 > 19
Cutlass Init 19 > 18
Mara A/C Drop 504 D/C Drop 488
Pirate Armor -2
Lich Armor +1
guard armor +3
Going to keep looking things over and in the morning it's out of my hands
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Last edited by SantaCruz; 22 May 2014 at 03:57.
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Unread 22 May 2014, 04:02   #221
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Re: R57 Stats sets

Going to bed. I'm done editing stats now. Last thing I did was check A/C D/C added together for each race. Make sure there wasn't any very overpowered or underpowered there. Syren was like 80 lower then the rest of ter so it got bumped. (still the lowest ship for ter) Then looking at zik. Mara/Pirate were both over 1k. This is pretty high for any steal ships. So i droped them under 1k.

Thanks to everyone that helped me with stats. In another thread, someone brought up a stats committee. To help each other with building stats. We should actually get this thing going. It would be a big big help for anyone doing stats. Support them, like you did me. It really helps the process.
If someones stats were chosen to be the ones we were going to play. Having everyone focus and support them instead of troll them.

Good luck to all this round.
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Unread 22 May 2014, 04:42   #222
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Re: R57 Stats sets

would be nice to swap the targetting around on guardians so theres at least a chance to stop BS by flakking
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Unread 22 May 2014, 05:53   #223
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Re: R57 Stats sets

I Actually like that guardian T1 De, Its one of the only cr/bs that hits De t1 and it stop Lich's before they fire which is a good thing.
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Unread 22 May 2014, 06:36   #224
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Re: R57 Stats sets

Quote:
Originally Posted by SantaCruz View Post
Final changes before I call it final and hand things over to Appoc
Harpy Dmg +1
Nixies armor +1
Valkie armor +1 dmg +1
Cerb Dmg +2
Syren A/C Raise 523 Raise D/C 357
Smuggler T1 DE > T1 Co, Init 18 > 19
Cutlass Init 19 > 18
Mara A/C Drop 504 D/C Drop 488
Pirate Armor -2
Lich Armor +1
guard armor +3
Going to keep looking things over and in the morning it's out of my hands
Thanks for information ..
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Unread 22 May 2014, 09:51   #225
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Re: R57 Stats sets

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I Actually like that guardian T1 De, Its one of the only cr/bs that hits De t1 and it stop Lich's before they fire which is a good thing.
They would get stopped at t2 regardless, just makes defending bs a little bit more viable, rather than having to pile on 500 fleets to prevent a cake walk
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Unread 22 May 2014, 13:41   #226
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Re: R57 Stats sets

It's out of my hands. However, I personally wouldn't change gaurd either. It's just an emp ship and investor do a good job killing. Only Guard/Rogue fire on DE T1 out of all CR/BS ships. DE is strong enough without nerfing BS to better DE.

Also note if you change Gaurd to T1 FR t2 De. ETD doesn't not T1 de. This would be stupid. DE is to strong to not be T1'd at somepoint
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Unread 22 May 2014, 15:48   #227
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Re: R57 Stats sets

Dont Vipers target DE T1 too?
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Unread 22 May 2014, 15:50   #228
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Re: R57 Stats sets

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Dont Vipers target DE T1 too?
Viper isn't Etd though, which is what he was talking about
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Unread 22 May 2014, 16:59   #229
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Re: R57 Stats sets

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Viper isn't Etd though, which is what he was talking about
Sorry, heads not with it.
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Unread 22 May 2014, 19:42   #230
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Re: R57 Stats sets

I'd like to suggest a few changes, mostly to the interaction between Fr/De/Cr/Bs.

Kraken from Bs->Fr/De to Bs->De/Fr
Tarantula initiative 2 to 1
Ghost from Cr->Fr/De to Cr->De/Fr
Rogue from Cr->De/Fr to Cr->Fr/De
Guardian from Bs->De/Fr to Bs->Cr/De
Tycoon from Bs->Cr to Bs->Fr


This would in my mind achieve a few things:
Firstly, Bs will be stronger against Cr. Currently the Dragon does well against it, but it has little support. Tarantula takes care of Bs too easily atm.
Secondly, De will be stronger against Bs. With the Guardians no longer targeting De T1, Black Widow and Lich will have a better chance to fire - though at the cost of Kraken now firing after them at 100%.
Last but not least, shift some power from Xan Cr into Zik Cr. Guardian's change included will also allow Zik to hit Etd since it was only able to hit Cath before, while Xan Cr is now weaker to Fr defense.

I personally don't see Fr as a problem, but the Kraken's targeting change is the least needed in my opinion and could be kept as is. Another alternative is switching its T2 to the Dragon.
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Unread 22 May 2014, 21:04   #231
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Re: R57 Stats sets

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
I'd like to suggest a few changes, mostly to the interaction between Fr/De/Cr/Bs.

Kraken from Bs->Fr/De to Bs->De/Fr
Tarantula initiative 2 to 1
Ghost from Cr->Fr/De to Cr->De/Fr
Rogue from Cr->De/Fr to Cr->Fr/De
Guardian from Bs->De/Fr to Bs->Cr/De
Tycoon from Bs->Cr to Bs->Fr


This would in my mind achieve a few things:
Firstly, Bs will be stronger against Cr. Currently the Dragon does well against it, but it has little support. Tarantula takes care of Bs too easily atm.
Secondly, De will be stronger against Bs. With the Guardians no longer targeting De T1, Black Widow and Lich will have a better chance to fire - though at the cost of Kraken now firing after them at 100%.
Last but not least, shift some power from Xan Cr into Zik Cr. Guardian's change included will also allow Zik to hit Etd since it was only able to hit Cath before, while Xan Cr is now weaker to Fr defense.

I personally don't see Fr as a problem, but the Kraken's targeting change is the least needed in my opinion and could be kept as is. Another alternative is switching its T2 to the Dragon.
Please explain to me the difference with init 1 and 2 tarantula. I see SantaCruz already made it as a change, but i don't see how it affects any battle what so ever!
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Unread 22 May 2014, 21:34   #232
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Re: R57 Stats sets

I disagree with some of Pat's suggestions.

The kracken needs the t1 frig advantage so it can Roid ter, xan effectively
zik have a rough time as they stand so need de class anti bs v ter.
Cath is open to ter bs inc but dont incur as much losses v targetting being swapped if they use Black Widdows as defence.
Ter BS wont go near an Etd planet due to the kracken having a slower init before the lich fires wont be of any effect giving t1 de t2 fr

Tarantula can have init 1 or init 2 so not a concern as the guardian still gets to fire either way.

The Rogue may have grounds to have targetting swapped if it is going to be more anti xan and ter and less anti Etd and cath. But this will strengthen De fleets and weaken Fr fleets.

The Ghost could have its targetting switched, however if I was going xan I would love the option of being able to fake fr as cr on another xan (the current set up is more effective at doing this.)

But imo xan cr needs its current targetting to be more effective at roiding etd. The Devastator fires before xan Cr anyway but it needs to a t1 frig so it hits dealers that can cause losses to the Xan cr fleet as the remaining de would be flak.

The Tycoon needs to hit cr and not frig having guardians t1 de and t2 fr is best as guardians are the only means of getting through on a etd De heavy planet.

The proposed changes to Etd bs fleet just makes cr weaker and de/fr fleet more stronger. IF Pat's changes did go ahead it would FORCE more players and alliances to consider FR/DE more than BS/CR.
As the current stat set up is there is a good balance (Don't FK it up please)
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Unread 22 May 2014, 22:27   #233
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Re: R57 Stats sets

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Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
I'd like to suggest a few changes, mostly to the interaction between Fr/De/Cr/Bs.

Kraken from Bs->Fr/De to Bs->De/Fr
Tarantula initiative 2 to 1
Ghost from Cr->Fr/De to Cr->De/Fr
Rogue from Cr->De/Fr to Cr->Fr/De
Guardian from Bs->De/Fr to Bs->Cr/De
Tycoon from Bs->Cr to Bs->Fr


This would in my mind achieve a few things:
Firstly, Bs will be stronger against Cr. Currently the Dragon does well against it, but it has little support. Tarantula takes care of Bs too easily atm.
Secondly, De will be stronger against Bs. With the Guardians no longer targeting De T1, Black Widow and Lich will have a better chance to fire - though at the cost of Kraken now firing after them at 100%.
Last but not least, shift some power from Xan Cr into Zik Cr. Guardian's change included will also allow Zik to hit Etd since it was only able to hit Cath before, while Xan Cr is now weaker to Fr defense.

I personally don't see Fr as a problem, but the Kraken's targeting change is the least needed in my opinion and could be kept as is. Another alternative is switching its T2 to the Dragon.
At this point, ANY setup you go. Is a good solid choice, It has strengths and weakness. One that were picked and "coded" to be there. Taking away those weakness or strengths unbalances the stats.
Tarantula takes care of Bs too easily atm. <--- you just asked for it to be raised an init??

Please don't tinker with DE / BS interactions. DE is already a powerful fort option, the point of guards is to be able to roid into DE forts with DE still able to roid BS ** in teams **

I don't see the point to making any of these changes at this point. All your changes reflect solo attacking. Making it so one race can roid another easier. The whole stats are against that. Despite people objects at first, now people see the point i was aiming at. Doing your changes now, changes the goal of my stats.

*Example. Zik doesn't just roid Cath. Its in 3, 3 pod team ups. Co,Fr,Cr. Zik is a super good choice for a race as it is. Not to mention it steals into every attack fleet it has. Major changes like these just aren't required.

I've been over these stats for close to 40 hours now. DE is a stronger fort then FR by far. DO NOT REMOVE T1'S FROM DE. Rogue and guard have to hit DE.

Last BS isn't supposed to roid CR easily. BS is for roiding FR/DE and anyother race/ally silly enough not to have CR anti BS. That's the point. It's planned that way. Bs has enough targets.
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Last edited by SantaCruz; 22 May 2014 at 22:34.
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Unread 22 May 2014, 22:33   #234
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Re: R57 Stats sets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrikc View Post
Kraken from Bs->Fr/De to Bs->De/Fr
Tarantula initiative 2 to 1
Ghost from Cr->Fr/De to Cr->De/Fr
Rogue from Cr->De/Fr to Cr->Fr/De
Guardian from Bs->De/Fr to Bs->Cr/De
Tycoon from Bs->Cr to Bs->Fr

I Dont Like the Kraken change, It targeting Fr 1st means that it kills its biggest def group. De is all fire 1st so theres not really a point.

As for Tarantula theres no point really.

Ghost however is a very much up Santa althought since De is only emp vs cr theres not really a point there either.

Rogue i've been telling santa for a while to make it T1 De. This does a few things its give a credible threat to De as a good init ship, while still being able to hit Xan Fr at t2 with init adv.

I do however LOVE the change to etd. However i would argue change Guardian to init 2 and Tara to init 1.
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Unread 22 May 2014, 22:50   #235
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Re: R57 Stats sets

LEAVE THE STATS alone ... I only want to see Small tweaks in arm/dam/guns/emp resist only.

Did a good job Santacruz.
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Unread 22 May 2014, 22:53   #236
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Re: R57 Stats sets

If i could "like" that post Paisley i would.
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Unread 23 May 2014, 01:31   #237
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Re: R57 Stats sets

lol thanks guys
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Unread 23 May 2014, 05:34   #238
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Re: R57 Stats sets

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheoDD View Post
Please explain to me the difference with init 1 and 2 tarantula. I see SantaCruz already made it as a change, but i don't see how it affects any battle what so ever!
It wouldn't make a difference on its own, but with the Guardian change (which is init 1) it would fire after fired upon.

I'm not sure what you guys are smoking but I don't see Fr and especially not De as being a viable main fleet at the moment.
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Unread 23 May 2014, 06:27   #239
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Re: R57 Stats sets

Yeah I don't like FR at all either. Ingal CRBS based anti FR and INvestors* will own you all round long.



* As noone in their right mind will build zik fr
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Unread 23 May 2014, 06:30   #240
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Re: R57 Stats sets

And why would DE not be a viable option?
Because theres a higher eta ship that freezes it at T1?

I don't smoke, but still don't understand your view of FR and DE not being viable.

I actually kinda like the way it's painfully annoying to pick which strat to go for atm. It all depends on what you value more, eta advantage or raw power.
Overal FR/DE seems stronger in anti fi/co , but then can't make ally def eta.
Overal CR/BS seems stronger to stop CR/BS, but then you have to build both CR and BS ships and again you're building higher eta ships.

When you go FR or DE, you can often build 2 shiptypes to cover all 3 classes, if you go for a main fleet of any of the other ships, have to spread out even more.

I think DE with Cath/ETD team ups are probably one of the strongest attacking combo's. You only really have to worry about Guardians in defenses, vs most other stuff you do quite well.
On defense, sure theres no way to stop the Guardian freezing your shippies, but thats how it normally is with EMP.
I dont see how it makes DE any different from all other classes, or how its unviable.
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Unread 23 May 2014, 19:51   #241
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Re: R57 Stats sets

Because while you're quite effective vs Fi/Co, you have to be very active to make alliance defense ETA with it.

If you go with Co as your anti-Fr/De (which means Etd will be stretching itself over 5 ships), you'll do okay against Fr since I don't expect much Zik Fr to be around, however against De the Scarab/Ranger will be hard to stop.

You have no killships against Cr which means you can't fake defend properly, and Bs EMPs before you do. Against Cr/Bs teamups it'll be hardest, since you'll barely touch Cr.

The good points of De are, as you said, strong on attacks, and I expect them to do quite well early on - however after the initial wave of soloing is over, everybody will be getting their revenge.
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Unread 23 May 2014, 20:52   #242
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Re: R57 Stats sets

Stats final with the following tweaks:

Behemoth armour 110->75
Demeter emp res 91->94
Termite now requires siege class weapons rather than frigate class hulls
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Unread 24 May 2014, 00:45   #243
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Re: R57 Stats sets

sweet, let the games begin!
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Unread 24 May 2014, 01:24   #244
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Re: R57 Stats sets

Quote:
Originally Posted by Appocomaster View Post
Stats final with the following tweaks:

Behemoth armour 110->75
Demeter emp res 91->94
Termite now requires siege class weapons rather than frigate class hulls
Will Termite still be a Frigate nontheless?
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Unread 24 May 2014, 01:45   #245
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Re: R57 Stats sets

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Will Termite still be a Frigate nontheless?
Yes, they are.
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Unread 26 May 2014, 09:24   #246
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Re: R57 Stats sets

I've not had the time to look at the stats this round. What is the combo that's the hardest to roid? (non-emp)
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Unread 26 May 2014, 11:00   #247
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Re: R57 Stats sets

I know it's too late to say anything now, but as a general point of view, I'm very much against the dynamic where the best anti xan fi ship is another xan ship.
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Unread 26 May 2014, 22:29   #248
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Re: R57 Stats sets

That should go for any fleet/race, really, but perhaps most importantly for Xan Fi.
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