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Unread 23 Jul 2007, 19:05   #51
Phang
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
the people of Chechnya*

*Who as far as I can tell are mainly fundamentalist loonies like Bush and Bin Laden anyway...

I'd missed this before. You are a spectacular alloy of an ignorant racist and a deluded fool; well done sir!
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Unread 23 Jul 2007, 19:26   #52
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
The UK/US political left are quieter about Chechnya than Iraq because it's the UK/US that are doing the latter. I don't think anyone would seriously suggest Iraq is 'worse' in objective terms.
People care more about Iraq and Israel because thats what gets more TV coverage, and I doubt that over 20% of the population even knows whats going on in Chechnya or the history of the region. I dont think it has much to do with involvement as such, its just less sexy because you cant tie really tie it into other leftist agendas as easily - 'free chechnya' looks more out of place at anti-globalization/environmentalism rallies than anti-iraqwar/israel placards due to the America factor.

The iraq war serves as a rallying point for a lot of seemingly disparate leftist movements rather than being something entirely in itself (look at the makeup of protesters at the initial anti-war marches and how easily they got hijacked by other agendas, ditto for pretty much every single anti-israel demonstration ever). You cant do that with Chechnya so its never going to get as much coverage - theres no market for it, and it doesnt cohere as well with broader political trends.

Last edited by Nodrog; 23 Jul 2007 at 19:45.
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Unread 23 Jul 2007, 20:26   #53
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
People care more about Iraq and Israel because thats what gets more TV coverage, and I doubt that over 20% of the population even knows whats going on in Chechnya or the history of the region. I dont think it has much to do with involvement as such, its just less sexy because you cant tie really tie it into other leftist agendas as easily - 'free chechnya' looks more out of place at anti-globalization/environmentalism rallies than anti-iraqwar/israel placards due to the America factor.

The iraq war serves as a rallying point for a lot of seemingly disparate leftist movements rather than being something entirely in itself (look at the makeup of protesters at the initial anti-war marches and how easily they got hijacked by other agendas, ditto for pretty much every single anti-israel demonstration ever). You cant do that with Chechnya so its never going to get as much coverage - theres no market for it, and it doesnt cohere as well with broader political trends.
All good points, mostly all on the money. But that isn't what you said - you said people don't care about it. People do, it's just there's little point in being as insistent about it.
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Unread 23 Jul 2007, 21:22   #54
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phang
All good points, mostly all on the money. But that isn't what you said - you said people don't care about it. People do, it's just there's little point in being as insistent about it.
define 'people'
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Unread 23 Jul 2007, 22:20   #55
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahwe
define 'people'
the mainstream UK/US left wing. You know, the ones being discussed.
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Unread 25 Jul 2007, 09:54   #56
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Re: Litvinenko, again

My main point with raising the issue of Iraq in the first place is that sadly my country has totally lost the "moral high ground" when it decided to join America in its illegal and immoral invasion of Iraq, and to bleat about Russias unwillingness to overturn its constitution in order to extradite the suspect in this context is a bit ludicrous.

Someone else then decided to bring up the subject of Chechnya...
Had Britain (god it pains me to say this), like France had a sane view of Iraq, and kept the hell out, then I would be a lot happier attacking Russia for what has happened in Chechnya, and hell, I might even bitch a bit about Litvinenko.
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Unread 25 Jul 2007, 12:21   #57
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nodrog
People care more about Iraq and Israel because thats what gets more TV coverage, and I doubt that over 20% of the population even knows whats going on in Chechnya or the history of the region.
This reminds me of this internet relay chat discussion I had with this guy who ended up in the same bunch of numbers with me in a browser game. He said that of course it's right for Russia to resist Chechnya's claim for independence even with force of arms, because in his views Russia owns Chechnya. What he didn't comment on, is that why (come that Chechnya's an area originally inhabited by people who have their ceparate from Russia culture and language, and was only a few hundred years ago captured and taken under rule by Russia) Finland, being a small area at Russian borders, having had it's own culture and language long before the Russian (or what it's worth Swedish) rule would deserve independence any more than Chechnya. Besides, the Western countries (like USA) can't do anything about Chechnya even if they wanted their share of the oil there, because it's sort of Russian front. You could make a good 45 minutes clip of it, but that's about it.
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Unread 25 Jul 2007, 20:11   #58
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab

Someone else then decided to bring up the subject of Chechnya...
Had Britain (god it pains me to say this), like France had a sane view of Iraq, and kept the hell out, then I would be a lot happier attacking Russia for what has happened in Chechnya, and hell, I might even bitch a bit about Litvinenko.
So you can't be critical about something because your elected representatives decided to go to war ? By that logic I'll shall no longer be criticising Guantanamo Bay because of the detention without charge laws and Belmarsh prison in Britain.
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Unread 25 Jul 2007, 20:17   #59
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Re: Litvinenko, again

only petty despots and the ignorant fools they manipulate desire independance from anything
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Unread 25 Jul 2007, 21:30   #60
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Re: Litvinenko, again

Quote:
Originally Posted by HRH_H_Crab
My main point with raising the issue of Iraq in the first place is that sadly my country has totally lost the "moral high ground" when it decided to join America in its illegal and immoral invasion of Iraq, and to bleat about Russias unwillingness to overturn its constitution in order to extradite the suspect in this context is a bit ludicrous.

Someone else then decided to bring up the subject of Chechnya...
Had Britain (god it pains me to say this), like France had a sane view of Iraq, and kept the hell out, then I would be a lot happier attacking Russia for what has happened in Chechnya, and hell, I might even bitch a bit about Litvinenko.
When did your country EVER have the moral high ground?
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